Indirect Method using Taiji Ball practice

[dwai]

So in the Damo Mitchell thread I inadvertently interjected the concept of Indirect Method of training. There seemed to be some interest in it, so spinning off another thread about it.

 

Disclaimer - What I'm expressing is my understanding of what I've been told by my teachers. So salt, grain, be forewarned.

 

Direct vs Indirect Method 

 

In the Direct Method, the practitioner uses his/her mind to drive the Qi through the Microcosmic orbit and the larger circulation of the lower meridians, arm meridians and the microcosmic orbit simultaneously. This is subject to the ability of one's mind focus, and is known for skipping/bypassing blockages instead of working through them.

 

In the Indirect Method, we generate an energetic Taiji Ball and move it and it's movement induces Qi movement through the meridians (including the MCO etc). This is a gentler and a more efficient way once the practitioner learns to generate an energetic Taiji ball. In the Indirect method, we don't over-exert the mind to spin the lower dan tien, etc. We focus on feeling, letting the mind settle into stillness. Anything that is forced (even if it is slightly) is too much and should be dialed down. All movements and all meditation should be natural and gentle.

 

What does the "energetic Taiji ball" you described consist of, and how is it moved around the body?

 

It's a ball of energy that is generated between your palms or one palm and the ground or one palm and the sky. If you press into it, it pushes back. If you try to pull it apart it resists. But you can press it, compress it, expand it, split it, and so on...

As to how you move it...exactly like how you would move a physical ball 

 

Can the ball be taken into the body, or does it stimulate the internal energy structure by being moved over the surface?

 

It is both within and without -- and I'm not speaking in parables here. 

The lower dan tien is always connected to the taiji ball(s). The taiji ball moves energies along the meridians. Depending on the sets/forms we do.

 

If you have more questions or ideas/thoughts...please do share.
 

[joeblast]

when the mco opens naturally, it does so from the dantiens, and the sequence works that way too.  but I dont want to derail your thread, its a cool approach.

Edited October 13, 2016 by joeblast

[blue eyed snake]

thanks Dwai, this gives me words/concepts for the things I'm doing. My teacher never tells a thing, by now he might have told me, but i haven't been able to go to the dojo for over a year, and not able to practice either, but in the small things i still do, these words resonate mightily 

 

So in the Damo Mitchell thread I inadvertently interjected the concept of Indirect Method of training. There seemed to be some interest in it, so spinning off another thread about it.

 

Disclaimer - What I'm expressing is my understanding of what I've been told by my teachers. So salt, grain, be forewarned.

 

sounds right to me, same grains of salt, me being just a beginner-student.

 

 

Direct vs Indirect Method 

 

In the Direct Method, the practitioner uses his/her mind to drive the Qi through the Microcosmic orbit and the larger circulation of the lower meridians, arm meridians and the microcosmic orbit simultaneously. This is subject to the ability of one's mind focus, and is known for skipping/bypassing blockages instead of working through them.

 

I'm not taught that, nor any visualizing, was quite a surprise for me when I read about that, in a book of MC ( one has to start reading somewhere) and here on the forums.

 

 

In the Indirect Method, we generate an energetic Taiji Ball and move it and it's movement induces Qi movement through the meridians (including the MCO etc). This is a gentler and a more efficient way once the practitioner learns to generate an energetic Taiji ball. In the Indirect method, we don't over-exert the mind to spin the lower dan tien, etc. We focus on feeling, letting the mind settle into stillness. Anything that is forced (even if it is slightly) is too much and should be dialed down. All movements and all meditation should be natural and gentle.

 

 

 

I remember the first time i made a ball between my hands, i was a relatively firm unbeliever at the time 

 

first teacher told us to make a ball and after a while he asked us what we felt/experienced. I felt a little tingling of the hand-palms and a strange (how strange i thought at the time) sense of a flowing something between the hands.

 

Then he told us to start play with the ball, just follow the ball, it knows where to go .... Er... there came a moment i lifted it above my head, i started swirling like a mad derwish, on socks, on a smooth wooden floor, whew... the head first became empty and then sort of... changed place and time.

Looking back i suspect i had a little help on that one, although he warned me not to try that in my living room 

 

he says something like: when your body start to move spontaneously during this ballplay, chi can and will dissolve your blocks. Er...maybe more like: when you start playing with the ball, the spontaneous movement that can happen is the result of  chi 'pushing' against your blocks. at least, that is how understand it now.

 

What does the "energetic Taiji ball" you described consist of, and how is it moved around the body?

 

It's a ball of energy that is generated between your palms or one palm and the ground or one palm and the sky. If you press into it, it pushes back. If you try to pull it apart it resists. But you can press it, compress it, expand it, split it, and so on...

As to how you move it...exactly like how you would move a physical ball  

 

 

 

yep, you can do all sorts of things with it, i remember a time where i did a sort of, I think splitting, merging and splitting it. I made the LDT go jerking.

 

Pushing to the earth and the sky. of course I have been doing that, but never have conceptualized it as making a ball.... see, i'm some sort of stupid   we have one practice where we alternately push the sky and the earth (and some other movements inbetween) Teacher always warns us that the amounts of pushing heaven and earth should be about the same. I realize now that in the little practice i do now, I've sort of lost the heaven while I still do the earth-pushing. ( not able to do the aforementioned practice, but still sometimes standing for a few moments, playing a little)

 

I wonder Dwai, could you make words of the effect of pushing with the earth, or with the heavens? and also, one can push just off, I mean vertically horizontally, right into the world, ideas? or am i asking too much now?

 

 

 

Can the ball be taken into the body, or does it stimulate the internal energy structure by being moved over the surface?

 

It is both within and without -- and I'm not speaking in parables here. 

The lower dan tien is always connected to the taiji ball(s). The taiji ball moves energies along the meridians. Depending on the sets/forms we do.

 

never thought about it before, but, i suppose when playing with the ball, something happens with the external field too. i mean, not just the meridians in the body, but also the bubble outside the body interact with and change when you play with the ball

 

 

If you have more questions or ideas/thoughts...please do share.

 

 

I'll first await your comments 

Edited October 15, 2016 by blue eyed snake

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Tried something very similar a few years back and was very surprised with suddenly holding a ball that wasnt "there".

Obviously something was there, i was busy making up explanations to this amazing magical force that i could summon at will.

We only worked with feeling it gently expand and deflate in time with breaths, it was mesmerizing. I tried doing it with a candle standing in the center of this sphere, hoping to affect the flame somehow...

 

After a few months of playing around with it i experienced a delusion when i realized this balls resistance was part of minute tensions and shifts relating to muscles and fascia (i think) in the back, the reistance between my hands was a result of the expansion of the ribcage when the lungs filled up and all that.

No magic power at all, just a made up explanation of an infinitely mundae occurrence! The fact i was holding my hands in front of my belly was just highlighting a subtle movement.

Disgusted with the exercise i never did it again, felt i was fooling myself and feeding a childish mode of wishful thinking...

ahrem.

Seems i discarded the content because the package didnt meet my expectations, i never even got to the qi part of the exercise

 

This thread makes me want to approach the exercise again!

I've studied breathing with relaxation in the years that followed the great delusion, studyimg unconscious or involuntary tensions and movements etc etc.

I realize this ongoing project would never have happened without playing with that taji ball, in many ways i owe the practice a lot and i think it might be time to approach it with less hopes of discovering the closet to Narnia and instead hope to öearn more about qi, body and mind.

 

Thanks for the reminder!

[dwai]

thanks Dwai, this gives me words/concepts for the things I'm doing. My teacher never tells a thing, by now he might have told me, but i haven't been able to go to the dojo for over a year, and not able to practice either, but in the small things i still do, these words resonate mightily

 

 

sounds right to me, same grains of salt, me being just a beginner-student.

 

 

I'm not taught that, nor any visualizing, was quite a surprise for me when I read about that, in a book of MC ( one has to start reading somewhere) and here on the forums.

 

 

I remember the first time i made a ball between my hands, i was a relatively firm unbeliever at the time

first teacher told us to make a ball and after a while he asked us what we felt/experienced. I felt a little tingling of the hand-palms and a strange (how strange i thought at the time) sense of a flowing something between the hands.

Then he told us to start play with the ball, just follow the ball, it knows where to go .... Er... there came a moment i lifted it above my head, i started swirling like a mad derwish, on socks, on a smooth wooden floor, whew... the head first became empty and then sort of... changed place and time.

Looking back i suspect i had a little help on that one, although he warned me not to try that in my living room

he says something like: when your body start to move spontaneously during this ballplay, chi can and will dissolve your blocks. Er...maybe more like: when you start playing with the ball, the spontaneous movement that can happen is the result of chi 'pushing' against your blocks. at least, that is how understand it now.

 

 

yep, you can do all sorts of things with it, i remember a time where i did a sort of, I think splitting, merging and splitting it. I made the LDT go jerking.

Pushing to the earth and the sky. of course I have been doing that, but never have conceptualized it as making a ball.... see, i'm some sort of stupid we have one practice where we alternately push the sky and the earth (and some other movements inbetween) Teacher always warns us that the amounts of pushing heaven and earth should be about the same. I realize now that in the little practice i do now, I've sort of lost the heaven while I still do the earth-pushing. ( not able to do the aforementioned practice, but still sometimes standing for a few moments, playing a little)

I wonder Dwai, could you make words of the effect of pushing with the earth, or with the heavens? and also, one can push just off, I mean vertically horizontally, right into the world, ideas? or am i asking too much now?

 

 

 

never thought about it before, but, i suppose when playing with the ball, something happens with the external field too. i mean, not just the meridians in the body, but also the bubble outside the body interact with and change when you play with the ball

 

 

 

I'll first await your comments

I can comment on some practices in temple style we call the prayer hands or praying hands set.

 

These involve generating a taiji ball between the palms. The laogong points of the palms are connected to the center of the taiji ball.

 

Then we compress this ball and move it vertically along the length of the body from upper dan tien to lower dan tien and back. This movement will automatically mobilize the MCO.

 

Then from the MDT we let the ball rise above the Baihui point (12-18") and expand and contract the ball but from the LDT. Expand the ball and hold it above (like you were holding the sky up...palms parallel and facing up. No locking. Breath from the LDT. After holding this posture for a while the palms will start feeling the energy build up.

 

 

Now let one palm arc down and face the earth. The energy from the sky palm will spiral down through the MDT into the earth palm. Let the energy flow and balance out between the palms. Let the taiji balls at each palm feel eveN in size. Sky taiji ball will be yang and earth taiji ball will be yin.

 

After a while (a few minutes) raise the earth palm again to hold up the sky with both palms. Now repeat the heaven and earth palms for the opposite palms.

 

Raise both palms again to the sky after a while. Then bring both palms down in front of you, facing the earth. Hold the ball there.

 

Repeat the set.

 

There are totally 10 sets of these palm meditations we do. It's easier to demonstrate than write about them...

 

The entire sequence can be done once in about 15-20 minutes. And then repeat if necessary.

 

If arbitrarily holding is hard, do 9 breaths per posture...

 

But I think the key is to not exert ourselves and remain sung. The energies can be felt by the body when we are relaxed. It is therefore important to not force these...as the muscles will strain initially. If you feel discomfort, hold for maybe 1'minute beyond that point and relax by switching sides/hands or just moving into a form that feels more relaxing.

[dwai]

After a few months of playing around with it i experienced a delusion when i realized this balls resistance was part of minute tensions and shifts relating to muscles and fascia (i think) in the back, the reistance between my hands was a result of the expansion of the ribcage when the lungs filled up and all that.

No magic power at all, just a made up explanation of an infinitely mundae occurrence! The fact i was holding my hands in front of my belly was just highlighting a subtle movement.

Disgusted with the exercise i never did it again, felt i was fooling myself and feeding a childish mode of wishful thinking...

ahrem.

Seems i discarded the content because the package didnt meet my expectations, i never even got to the qi part of the exercise

 

Thanks for the reminder!

 

I've heard theories about fascia and how this is all biomechanical alignment and perfectly "scientific". Then these proponents of "fascia" theory bring the mind into the mix. They'll say - "it's all perfectly scientific...just send your mind to the other person's root" or "feel the fascia with your mind" etc.

 

Hello! The only role the mind has in the scientific method is to observe and record phenomena. It cannot "enter someone's feet or feel someone's fascia" and imaginary simply means make-believe.

 

These are IMHO just mental acrobatics! Sometimes I feel these teachers make ip these crazy "scientific" theories because they don't want to be ridiculed by skeptics for following a framework other than modern science...

 

If we are relaxed enough we will feel the qi.

 

The ball will push back whether we inhale or exhale. In fact the breathing needs to be divorced from the energetic aspect after the preliminary phase.

 

My teacher would say in context of energetic application -- "if someone is coming to hit you, will you ask them to wait until you finish inhaling to strike back?" No! Tying the energy to the breath is well and good at the beginning learning stages. As we mature we should be able to project or condense energy during inhale, exhale or even when breath is suspended or held.

Edited October 16, 2016 by dwai

[Silver2016]

At risk of derailing this thread (apologies in advance) - I'm wondering what others' thoughts are about the use of a real ball to help circulate/generate energy as in this video clip. Not sure if it's relevant to the "Direct/Indirect" method discussion though:

 

 

I'm told that there is a history of using wooden, metal, stone and animal bladders filled with e.g. soy beans etc., as balls for energy training and as there are a significant number of acupuncture points in the hands, it is said to be beneficial for the body's systems as well as energy.

 

Disclaimer: the person in the clip is my good friend and teacher.

 

[dwai]

At risk of derailing this thread (apologies in advance) - I'm wondering what others' thoughts are about the use of a real ball to help circulate/generate energy as in this video clip. Not sure if it's relevant to the "Direct/Indirect" method discussion though:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAJWp0Svt4U

 

I'm told that there is a history of using wooden, metal, stone and animal bladders filled with e.g. soy beans etc., as balls for energy training and as there are a significant number of acupuncture points in the hands, it is said to be beneficial for the body's systems as well as energy.

 

Disclaimer: the person in the clip is my good friend and teacher.

IMHO, it's not the same thing and doesn't work on the same things a real taiji ball does.

[Silver2016]

Thank you for your comment. Can you help me understand this a bit more.

[dwai]

Thank you for your comment. Can you help me understand this a bit more.

A real taiji ball is not physical. It is essentially one's energy vibrated at a higher (than ordinary) frequency. To work with it one has to become sufficiently sung, and sensitive. Once we can manifest it, it becomes palpable and helps us do things with energy that we can't do with physical solid matter.

 

Just as one would do weights in the gym to strengthen the muscles, one has to work with these energetic tools to strengthen one's energy (qi and Jin).

[Silver2016]

Thanks again for your comments, you've given me some things to think about and reflect on in my own practice. From my naive understanding, the balance of li and jin in energy work seems to have a long history in taijiquan and other styles of kungfu, and the use of stone locks, balls and other weight devices have been reviewed by others over the years. My understanding of using a 'material' ball is with an aim of eventually not holding a 'ball', while holding a 'ball'. Perhaps though, I'm digressing from the original intention of this thread.