for Karl- the evidence

[roger]

Karl, some of the evidence for my perspective is: near-death experiences, channeled material, answered prayers, the phenomenon of spiritual enlightenment, angelic appearances (which my mom had when she was six just before her dad died), and miracles.

 

Now, I can't "prove" these things to you, but I can honestly say that I fully believe that, based on everything I've read, experienced, and even my own reason and self-honest logic, I have a QUALITY of certainty that these things are basically correct, valid, and legitimate, that an individual CAN'T HAVE in the idea that they're NOT valid and legitimate.

 

I won't get into further detail, but I think you see where I'm coming from.

 

Peace.

[Karl]

Karl, some of the evidence for my perspective is: near-death experiences, channeled material, answered prayers, the phenomenon of spiritual enlightenment, angelic appearances (which my mom had when she was six just before her dad died), and miracles.

 

Now, I can't "prove" these things to you, but I can honestly say that I fully believe that, based on everything I've read, experienced, and even my own reason and self-honest logic, I have a QUALITY of certainty that these things are basically correct, valid, and legitimate, that an individual CAN'T HAVE in the idea that they're NOT valid and legitimate.

 

I won't get into further detail, but I think you see where I'm coming from.

 

Peace.

As soon as you say that you can't 'prove' you immediately imply faith. As I said to you before Roger, it is not my place to question faith as it pertains to those who feel they wish it. I will only refute it if it is framed as a question, or as fact. As long as you can't prove it, this becomes an irrelevance to me and I can certainly see where you are coming from.

 

My entire family including myself were into these things from a very early age, my brother retains a strong interest and runs a blog on ghosts and NDE-a even received a book about angels from him as a Christmas present. They struggle to understand how I could have lost my faith, but it's simply a case that I no longer required it, if others do, then I understand because it was true for me also.

 

If you are asking me to refute, or to explain your experiences, I won't. You had them, I've had them, they are as real as they seem to be. You can no more give up faith than I can give up reason and that's where the conversation must end.

[Nungali]

Karl, some of the evidence for my perspective is: near-death experiences, channeled material, answered prayers, the phenomenon of spiritual enlightenment, angelic appearances (which my mom had when she was six just before her dad died), and miracles.

 

Now, I can't "prove" these things to you, but I can honestly say that I fully believe that, based on everything I've read, experienced, and even my own reason and self-honest logic, I have a QUALITY of certainty that these things are basically correct, valid, and legitimate, that an individual CAN'T HAVE in the idea that they're NOT valid and legitimate.

 

I won't get into further detail, but I think you see where I'm coming from.

 

Peace.

 

 

IMO , they ^  seem ' qualities of mind '   -  subjective.    Proof requires 'outward'  objective reality  (nowadays) . 

 

Eg;  we can demonstrate that a placebo works  but this is subjective and within the person themselves and related to their belief systems, conditioning and internal self regulation  systems .  

 

To prove  a  'magical operation' one would have to demonstrate  empirically .  Something like the placebo test but outside of the field of the operator .    Everything you said above is either self referential or dependent on certain interpretations.

 

The modern idea of ' reality '  ( of which Karl seems a proponent ) is very dualistic  and seems either to be classified as 'real'  or 'ideal'   (or delusional, imagined, lied about, made up, etc ) .

 

Thing is, our minds were formed over aeons of development  before this very recent 'dualism' came into dominant western paradigm only  a few hundred years ago . 

 

The issue may well not be  ;  ' real or not '   but  involve our own  perceptions of what constitutes 'reality' in the first place ! 'Some' would instantly poo-poo this concept ... as they are certain  what reality is   

 

here is an interesting read on an alternative view ;     http://www.harpur.org/PJCHdaimonicreality.htm

[doc benway]

For me this doesn't need to be an either/or proposition.

I have one foot firmly in the rational/scientific paradigm in my professional life.

The other foot is equally firmly in the experiential/empirical paradigm in my meditation/martial arts practices.

Both are equally valid and mutually supportive, rather than exclusive. 

Excluding either would limit my perspective and both are necessary to fully describe and enrich my life experience.

[RiverSnake]

Many in-depth studies have been done on NDEs. 

[Brian]

For me this doesn't need to be an either/or proposition.

I have one foot firmly in the rational/scientific paradigm in my professional life.

The other foot is equally firmly in the experiential/empirical paradigm in my meditation/martial arts practices.

Both are equally valid and mutually supportive, rather than exclusive. 

Excluding either would limit my perspective and both are necessary to fully describe and enrich my life experience.

Same here, steve.

[LAOLONG]

A good book https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Roots_of_Coincidence

Mysteriously out of print

In the book he refer to

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Psychical_Research

Look for the presidents of the society!!!

 

 

And http://www.sheldrake.org

Edited October 18, 2016 by james bond

[Andrei]

Many in-depth studies have been done on NDEs. 

 

They all have one thing in common. People who told the stories were all alive.

[LAOLONG]

In the Hebrew university of Jerusalem there are Newton hand written mystic manuscripts.

One professor to physics said that Newton discovered the gravity force because his mystical belief that objects can influence one anther

Without contact.

In

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton

Of an estimated ten million words of writing in Newton's papers, about one million deal with alchemy.

Edited October 18, 2016 by james bond

[RiverSnake]

They all have one thing in common. People who told the stories were all alive.

 

 

Not true, many were clinically dead and came back.  

[RiverSnake]

Interesting interview on the author of a book on NDE. Enjoy.  

 

[Nungali]

They all have one thing in common. People who told the stories were all alive.

 

Yep !  And they are 'within the field of the operator '  --  subjective experience open to personal interpretation.   I am sure I could easily find the other clinical view on NDEs .   If someone can have a 'real' OOB, then we should be able to test it .  Many try , I am yet to be convinced that it is an objective phenomena.  

[Nungali]

In the Hebrew university of Jerusalem there are Newton hand written mystic manuscripts.

One professor to physics said that Newton discovered the gravity force because his mystical belief that objects can influence one anther

Without contact.

In

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton

Of an estimated ten million words of writing in Newton's papers, about one million deal with alchemy.

 

... and there is another perspective on that as well . Look at the dates Newton was around .   He also translated a version of the Emerald Tablet of Hermes. Back then , many had a 'foot in both camps' .  

[Nungali]

Not true, many were clinically dead and came back.

 

Clinically dead ?   Where / when is real death ?    No breath ?  No heart beat ?   No brain activity ? No cell reproduction ?  

 

Besides you yourself cited them as NDOs which, I believe,  are NEAR death experiences ?  

[Nungali]

Same here, steve.

 

 

To do otherwise would be 'scientism' wouldnt  it  ;     to project the scientific principles you work with in that field , into the other areas of you life that dont really work that way or apply to those principles .

 

One cant rationalize the unconscious   .... well, I cant .     The other thing is , mode of operation.  

 

Eg;  We had a bad boss, friend was nervous and furtive around him, he seemed conditioned by hierarchical  positions  ( he even said I should respect the bad boss more because he was a CEO , regardless of him being bad for the job  )  . There was trouble, people were getting laid off, he was told to go to the office for an interview with the bad boss and freaked out as he thought he was getting the sack. 

 

He was also in my MA club  ( yeah, I know  .... he was a bit scared of women too    ), so I told him ; "If he gets too pushy in the interview, imagine you have your sword, draw it, go on guard ( on the 'astral' ) and point the tip at his eyes and get ready to attack ! "    

 

He comes back .... the  Boss had started up on him so he did it. he ended up keeping his job and got  a raise !   

 

Most will realize the action gave the nervous furtive guy  confidence and determination that was detected ( consciously or not ) by the other  ... all body language, facial expression or even pheromones (if you buy into that one ), etc .    Still, it worked ?  Who cares  whether it was 'magic' or not - it was a successful operation.  Thing is, he wasnt capable of the conscious realization, and doing the whole thing rationally and 'scientifically' , he could not just achieve that and put out those signals deliberately , me had to have a way of getting his emotive energies running .  

 

So for me , 'magic' works , I would give my old trumpie a cylinder pat on cold mornings for a single kick start up ..... it probably focused me to kick the beast correctly , the danger is to lose the rational balance ,  and just pat it instead of doing oil changes . 

 

But still, all that is still 'within the field of the operator ' .    

 

We need to do my rat trap experiment   

[Jeff]

While I do not have any experience with NDE, years back when I first started feeling energy stuff, I conducted hundreds of energy experiments with other practioners. We would set up control groups and then independently verify subjective energy perception (dealing with the placebo effect). Even had an MD and PhD participate in a few of the experiments.

 

On measurable stuff that was not simply subjective human experience, was able to consciously/energetically (remotely) manipulate a biometric sensor machine. You can read about the machine here...

 

https://www.zyto.com

 

There are also some kirrilian field imaging chambers that supposedly can see energy flows at certain frequencies. A wholistic healer I know has talked about buying one when she can afford it. She said that a seminar she saw an energy healer actually pulse energy real time out of her hand, kind of expanding and sending blobs of aura energy.

[Andrei]

Not true, many were clinically dead and came back.

 

Which means they were not dead, "clinically dead" does not mean anything.

 

Have you ever heard of a "vegetative state"? Do you know what vegetative nervous system is? Do you know where the "vegetative" word comes from? From "vegetable". Are your vegetables in your fridge dead or alive? What do you think, do they dream? Do they think? They think they are dead or alive?

Edited October 19, 2016 by Andrei

[Karl]

Magic beans, magic beans, who will buy my magic beans ? It's good to see the snake oil is flowing as well as ever but has crossed into the IT space.

 

It didn't take long for the faith to morph into all those important little charms and embrocations that the faithful must buy. :-/

[blue eyed snake]

well. death is something surrounded by un-clearities.

hart stopped pumping, brain-dead, western doctors do not seem to have a very clear definition of when one is dead.

 

I've had several experiences of dead people communicating things to me  after they were 'dead'. things that I did not have any knowledge of beforehand, or just saying goodbye at a moment that I was unaware that they had died.

 

for me, a near death experience is exactly that, being near death. As a sort of portal where one can go on, or go back, and the decision is not always ours.

 

Regarding energy/chi/lifeforce , in the time when my analyzing mind  still needed confirmation about this energetic healing idea, I've have been reading some interesting thingies.

 

Among those publications ( scientific, meaning real measurements etc.) I remember one that clearly showed that the EMfield around the hands of energetic healers is about 1000 times as high as the usual at the moment that they are 'sending chi' . There was more but it does not interest me much anymore, I do not need scientific confirmation anymore to what i can so clearly feel .

[RiverSnake]

First book i read on this topic was Farther Shores by Yvonne Kason. It's got some good tidbits in there. The author himself actually had a NDE in a plane crash and that's what prompted his study of the phenomenon. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Farther-Shores-Exploring-Near-Death-Experiences/dp/0595533965/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1476893485&sr=8-1&keywords=A+farther+shore  

[Nungali]

Magic beans, magic beans, who will buy my magic beans ? It's good to see the snake oil is flowing as well as ever but has crossed into the IT space.

 

It didn't take long for the faith to morph into all those important little charms and embrocations that the faithful must buy. :-/

 

Beans ?    P f f f f t  !       However, if you Karl, chose to take a magic Mushroom or two      ..... although I doubt you could get a sitter  ......   ohhhhh   the carnage !  

 

 

 

[LAOLONG]

○□☆

Edited October 19, 2016 by james bond

[Nungali]

Wot ?  

 

ohhhh  ... I get it , its were you  work .    

Edited October 19, 2016 by Nungali

[LAOLONG]

☆☆☆

Edited October 20, 2016 by james bond

[Nungali]