Mair 3:3

[Marblehead]

When His Honor Decorated Chariot saw the Right Instructor he was startled and said, "Who is that man?  Why is he so odd?  Is it due to nature or to man?"

 

Someone said, "Nature made him this way, not man.  Nature's engenderment causes things to be unique.  Human appearances are endowed.  That's how I know it's due to nature, not man.

[Taoist Texts]

There seems to be something missing here..

 

When Gong-wen Xian saw the Master of the Left, he was startled, and said, 'What sort of man is this? How is it he has but one foot? Is it from Heaven? or from Man?'

Then he added, 'It must be from Heaven, and not from Man. Heaven's making of this man caused him to have but one foot. In the person of man, each foot has its marrow. By this I know that his peculiarity is from Heaven, and not from Man.

 

/Legge/

Edited October 24, 2016 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

Yes, Burton Watson and Lin Yutang follow Legge's translation. 

 

Watson's translation of the second paragraph reads:

 

"It was Heaven, not man," said the commander. "When Heaven gave me life, it saw to it that I would be one-footed. Men's looks are given to them. So I know this was the work of Heaven and not of man."

[Marblehead]

For me, this section basically states that we are born into life with given capabilities and capacities.  We must learn to work with what we have.

[Taoist Texts]

I do not understand what is going on here. Lets say some one was born one-legged. Why do they state the obvious that it is an inborn deformity as  some kind of revelation? How can an inborn deformity be 'from man'? There is no 'marrow' or 'one-legged' in the original, either. Methinks the translators do not understand this passage as well.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

I do not understand what is going on here. Lets say some one was born one-legged. Why do they state the obvious that it is an inborn deformity as  some kind of revelation? How can an inborn deformity be 'from man'? There is no 'marrow' or 'one-legged' in the original, either. Methinks the translators do not understand this passage as well.

 

The way I read it:

 

One of the penalties back then for criminals was the removal of feet, etc.

 

Some would look at the man and wonder if he was a criminal or just born that way.

 

Stating that he was born that way negated the thinking that he might have been a criminal.

[Stosh]

Being that there is some disagreement as to the content of the text,, it seems appropriate to assume that its the common elements of the two versions would display the most significant issue. 

 

There is a question regarding the special-ness of the military officer retaining a high position despite missing a foot.

Has he been trained to excel despite this ,  is it a peculiarity of his nature, or was it taken from him. 

(The ol nature vs nurture debate)

The answer is offered that men being molded , results in the standard molded form,, whereas the unique drive or ability of such a man as this must be due to his own merit. (And If his foot had been removed  - molded-  for crimes , then he wouldnt have his rank.)

IMO , he doesnt have it in him to run away.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Yeah, it's hard to run with only one foot.

 

Good perspective Stosh.

[Taoist Texts]

Ah, now i get it thanks to you guys.

 

When Gong-wen Xian saw the Master of the Left, he was startled, and said, 'What sort of man is this? How is it he looks so unique? Is it from Heaven? or learned from other men?'

 

Then it was said, 'It must be from Heaven, and not from men. Heaven gives birth to every person as a separate entity. But men have common countenance. By this I know that his uniqueness is from Heaven, and not from men.'

[oak]

Great team work. Really enjoying it 

[dawei]

Ah, now i get it thanks to you guys.

 

When Gong-wen Xian saw the Master of the Left, he was startled, and said, 'What sort of man is this? How is it he looks so unique? Is it from Heaven? or learned from other men?'

 

Then it was said, 'It must be from Heaven, and not from men. Heaven gives birth to every person as a separate entity. But men have common countenance. By this I know that his uniqueness is from Heaven, and not from men.'

 

where is the problematic footed issue, or at least explained... just a mistranslation?  now looking for original.. 

[Marblehead]

Chuang Tzu often speaks of people with physical deformities.  I didn't really see this as a problem.

[Taoist Texts]

where is the problematic footed issue, or at least explained... just a mistranslation?  now looking for original.. 

For some reason every body takes 介 to be one-legged, which is not in any dictionary or text I checked.

 

公文軒見右師而驚曰：「是何人也？惡乎介也？天與，其人與？」

曰：「天也，非人也。天之生是使獨也，人之貌有與也。以是知其天也，非人也。」

http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/nourishing-the-lord-of-life

Edited October 26, 2016 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

It looks to me like the dude has a broken leg.  Maybe Mair left it out because he couldn't identify the character?  And maybe it is an older character that is no longer used?

[Taoist Texts]

It looks to me like the dude has a broken leg.  

 

http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-mf/search.php?word=%E4%BB%8B

 

yes quite)

 

Maybe Mair left it out because he couldn't identify the character?  And maybe it is an older character that is no longer used?

 

 

 

No, it is current.

 

(1)  Armor, mail: 介夫 [jie4fu0], 介冑 [jie4zhou2]↓.

(2)  (Zoo.) crustaceans: 介瞉 [jie4ke2], 介蟲 [jie4chong2]↓;

鱗介類 fish and crustaceans.

(3)  (Interch. 芥) a thing of little or no value, a trifle: 一介不取 will not take a cent.

(4)  Stage direction for certain movements: 飲酒介 drinking wine;

相見介 (of two persons) meeting;

張生笑介 Chang smiles or laughs.

(5)  (U.f. 价) a manservant.

(6)  A surname.

V.i. & t. (1)  To lie between, interpose, serve as intermediary: 介紹 [jie4shao4]↓;

介於二者之間 situated between the two;

介紹 introduce one person to another;

媒介 a medium or go-between;

介詞 [jie4ci2]↓.

(2)  Pray for blessing:以介眉壽 to pray for blessing of long life;

介壽 [jie4shou4]↓.

(3)  Keep in mind, take seriously: 介意 [jie4yi4], 介懷 [jie4huai2], 介介 [jie4jie4]↓.

Adj. (1)  Simple, plain: 一介書生 a mere scholar;

一介武夫 a plain soldier.

(2)  Huge, big: 介福 [jie4fu2]↓.

(3)  ([ga4]) Such a : 像煞有介事 (Shanghai dial.) make such a fuss about it, put on such airs.

(4)  Upright, straightforward, conscientious: 耿介 scrupulous, acting on principles;

介然 [jie4ran2]↓.

Adj. & adv. Alone:介立 [jie4li4], 介特 [jie4te4]↓.

Words 1. 介蟲 [jie4chong2], n., (zoo.) crustaceans.

2. 介弟 [jie4di4], n., (court.) your brother.

3. 介夫 [jie4fu0], n., (AC) an armed soldier.

4. 介福 [jie4fu2], n., great happiness, untold blessings; also v.i., pray for blessings.

5. 介懷 [jie4huai2], v.i., bear a grievance, take offense.

6. 介介 [jie4jie4], adj., uneasy, troubled, full of misgivings.

7. 介冑 [jie4zhou2], n., ancient military dress (“armor and helmet”).

8. 介彀 [jie4ke2], n., shells of crabs, oysters, lobsters or snails.

9. 介立 [jie4li4], v.i., stand alone.

10. 介然 [jie4ran2], adj. & adv., steadfast(ly), uncompromising(ly).

11. 介紹 [jie4shao4], v.t., (1) introduce (one person) to another (also 紹介); (2) serve as an intermediary.

12. 介壽 [jie4shou4], n., offer of birthday congratulations.

13. 介特 [jie4te4], n., (AC) one without family or friend: 養老疾，收介特 (AC) take care of the aged and the sick and give shelter to the homeless.

14. 介詞 [jie4ci2], n., (gram.) a preposition.

15. 介子 [jie4zi3], n., (phys.) a mesotron.

16. 介意 [jie4yi4], v.i., feel hurt: 請不要介意 please do not take it to heart, see [jie4huai2]↑.

 

[Stosh]

Im thinking this passage offers insight into how ones bones were ..considered as representative of. Bones are not so changeable as muscles and bellies, one dies the skeleton reveals the deeper more constant form. Muscles flex , get tired etc. So in the passage the bones of the foot are representing a sort of physical representation of the mans inner nature.  

The many deformities mentioned , mirror this time-honored literary technique.

Its like having the bad cowboy wear a black hat , or Ahab, 'dis-masted' , and sporting a lightning bolt shaped scar on his face. 

The dude in the embellished version , is of such strong moral character that he is described as never having his foot bones , which would have enabled him to run away. His nature , being footbone-less, ensured a destiny for him. 

If he had been more like other men in form/character ,  his destiny would not likely have been the same.

When we read of the alternately formed , Im thinking these things should be considered as indicative of the character of the person, and not make a basic assumption that they are 'flaws' by definition. We are merely being shown in a physical representation aspects of the persons deeper character and their destiny resulting from these characters. 

[dawei]

For some reason every body takes 介 to be one-legged, which is not in any dictionary or text I checked.

 

公文軒見右師而驚曰：「是何人也？惡乎介也？天與，其人與？」

曰：「天也，非人也。天之生是使獨也，人之貌有與也。以是知其天也，非人也。」

http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/nourishing-the-lord-of-life

 

I see that in a later section, there will be an example of a man who had his foot cut off (if that is translated correctly)... so clearly this example is not meant to follow the idea that this was due to punishment. 

 

It even could be that this guy's leg is simply withered or essentially not useful as would be two normal feet/legs.