Swede's ramblings and questions - Welcome in!

[Swede]

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Hello all,

 

I have quite recently discovered Tao(ism) and have been reading a lot of different material.

 

Bit of a background…

 

I am nearing 40, have 4 children, I am married, I work fulltime and I have a fairly active lifestyle.

 

I was born and raised in a coastal country region of Sweden, under a Christian tradition. At 15 I was confirmed as per tradition although I never really bought into the whole God/Christianity thing. I have always felt as if I have been searching for some sort of truth.

As a teenager I lead an easy life.  I have always read a lot of books and once I found a book in my parent’s bookshelf which would have a huge impact on me – Shogun, by James Clavell. As historically incorrect it may be,  it opened my eyes to the Eastern world. From this I developed some romantic ideas of greatness and respect from the Martial Arts and an imagined Bushido code.

 

At this time of my life I would often sit daydreaming  upstairs in my room overlooking the fields in the summer sunset.  The Swedish countryside has some beautiful scenery to offer and I would sit there, not sad, nor depressed, but just at peace.  It was at this time, around the age of 17 or so, whilst sitting there gazing through the window, I had a sudden realisation that I was somehow one with everything. I felt an immense peace, and however fleeting it was, it lasted for quite some time and it translated into everyday life. Nothing seemed to stress me out and the typical teenage woes did not bother me as I felt at peace.  But then life got in the way and I went to do the compulsory national service. I joined the Army as a commando, true to my earlier romantic ideas of battle. During this time I lost that feeling of oneness and the feeling of peace. Upon completion I resumed the ‘normal’ western idea of life. I have always swayed on the leftie side of politics which I somehow think is a subconscious protest against what I saw as a consumeristic selfish society.

 

I started travelling and I met my wife, emigrated from Sweden to sunny Australia, got married and fast forward till today, 4 children later, am still happily married.   

 

I have always enjoyed discussing religion with others including diehard Christians, muslims and a fabulous Sikh. About 12 or so months ago I remembered the feeling of oneness I had once felt as a youngster. I actually googled Shogun and started dwelling in Japanese traditions which led to martial arts, Zen and traditional Buddhism.

 

Somehow I found and read Eckhart Tolle’s book, The power of Now. It had a huge impact on me. I had many ‘aha’ moments with new insights. The book had many references to Buddhism and  Zen koans which resonated with me.

 

I started looking into Buddhism which led to Zen. At one point I was trying to decide which tradition I wanted to pursue or investigate further. This is when I stumbled upon Tao.  I had never heard or read about this philosophy/religion and it immediately spoke to me, unknown how.  

 

I read Jane English and Gia-Fu Feng’s translation of the Tao Te Jing. Although I did not really understand most of the passages, I felt there was a ‘secret’ message hidden within the text and I felt compelled to find out more. I have since read a few classical and modern books including Zhuangzi, Tao Te Jing for parents (which I strongly recommend to any parent out there), The Tao of Pooh and a few others. I have also trawled the internet for blogs and forums for any further insights. Again, I’ve had many ‘aha’ moments and although they are fleeting, they are also addictive which threw me even further into the interwebs.  I feel I understand the message in my mind when reading these texts, but I don’t ‘feel’ or ‘experience’ it as reality. I do feel I am more interested in, or drawn to, the so called philosophical and spiritual Tao than the religious variations.

 

So, here I am. The more I read, the more confused I get. I have many questions, many that are probably perceived as childlike to the members of this forum. But I will ask, this is a path I feel like I have to take at this time.

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Thanks for having me.

 

[Swede]

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Well with all that said, where should I begin? I think most of my questions are in relation to the philosophical side of things at this stage.  My linear mind loves a list so I’ll number the questions for simplicity.

 

​1. Where does Taoism stand on the question of ego? First of all, is there such a thing as a separate ego to your ‘true self’ or pure consciousness?  And if so, is it possible to transcend the ego in order to awaken and experience the world from this pure consciousness?

[Mudfoot]

A balanced practice with moving, standing and seated exercises will move you in the direction of feeling that which you are reading about.

 

Now that november comes, I cannot for the world imagine why you left Sweden for Australia. The dark, the rain, the cold....

[Swede]

Haha yeah... I am the biggest wuss when it comes to the cold. My mates here doubt I'm actually swedish I call myself a 'climate refugee'.

 

Thanks for the tip on the practice. I will definately look into the different types of cultivation. This forum seems to have a wealth of information on the topic.

 

So far my practice has been limited to seated meditation. Or, more like attempting to do seated meditation.

 

2. Which leads me to another question. I have been practicing seated meditation for about four months now. About 40 min a day. At first I tried counting the out-breath to ten then restart. Initially I liked this method as i quickly could notice when my mind wandered and I was counting 34,35... But I struggle with letting the breath flow naturally and control each breath as I count.

 

Then I tried just watching my thoughts. Between constantly nodding off and engaging in my thoughts for some time before realising, I did not find it easy.

 

Then I tried a silent mantra. This is probably the most relaxing way right now and I seem to follow it quite easy. But I have read it is counter productive as I concentrate on the mind.

 

I realise I haven't been at it for very long and I should not sit with any expectations. But... ofc I have expectations. That's the whole reason of doing all this in the first place.

 

So I guess my question is, what type of seated meditation do you guys do? I realize it is a highly personal question depending on the reason one meditates.

 

Cheers again.

[Marblehead]

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​1. Where does Taoism stand on the question of ego? First of all, is there such a thing as a separate ego to your ‘true self’ or pure consciousness?  And if so, is it possible to transcend the ego in order to awaken and experience the world from this pure consciousness?

To ego; I believe Taoism recognizes "self image" as ego.  Buddhism generally teaches to eliminate ego whereas Taoism generally teaches to reduce ego.

 

Ego often gets in the way but it also supports the survival instinct.  Ego should reflect the truth of who/what we are.

 

To meditation; I use empty-minded meditation when I find myself in need of cleaning my brain.  It allows me to look at the world from a fresh perspective.

[Swede]

To ego; I believe Taoism recognizes "self image" as ego.  Buddhism generally teaches to eliminate ego whereas Taoism generally teaches to reduce ego.

 

Ego often gets in the way but it also supports the survival instinct.  Ego should reflect the truth of who/what we are.

 

To meditation; I use empty-minded meditation when I find myself in need of cleaning my brain.  It allows me to look at the world from a fresh perspective.

 

 

Ok, thanks for that. I had to think about what you said for a moment.

 

So by Taoism seeing 'self image' as ego, and not attempting to rid it permanently as Buddhism teaches, it is then necessary to keep the ego ('self image'), however, not a inflated ego (false self) as that would be detrimental. 

 

So the difference between the Taoist and Buddhist ego is then maybe just a matter of what meaning we attribute the word 'ego'?

 

Taoism - 'Self image' without the inflated ego attachment (false self which should be reduced/eliminated)

Buddhism - Ego is the false self and should be eliminated 

 

I don't know. I'm rambling on here    ​ But I will read up on it further.

 

 

I also had to google your empty-minded meditation technique and it appears it is what I had attempted whereas I just let the thoughts pass by without getting hooked up on them? I would love to attain that level of meditation practice, so I will continue practicing.

 

Again, cheers for your help.

[Mudfoot]

In buddhism, you should come to the realization that there is no permanent, independent self.

 

It is not permanent, because how you think and feel changes during your lifetime.

It is not independent, because everything in existence is where it is as a result of things that has happened before, and are in change because of what other things/creatures are doing.

 

When you realize this, false ego dies.

 

More or less.....

[dawei]

​​1. Where does Taoism stand on the question of ego? First of all, is there such a thing as a separate ego to your ‘true self’ or pure consciousness?  And if so, is it possible to transcend the ego in order to awaken and experience the world from this pure consciousness?

 

I think I'd agree that particularly Laozi equated ego with 'self'... not sure its worth discussing whether there is really a difference to self-image as neither is the ultimate point.

 

There is a well known passage in LZ CH. 1 that has been discussed here a lot about  "mystery vs manifest".   I've seen some translations that use the word ego with this that might go something like:

 

Without self/ego, one can observe the mystery

But with self/ego, one will only observe the manifest.

 

It goes on to say that the two are from the same source but become distinct in our [manifest] worldview.  Ergo, the manifest world will reveal everything in a dual state; so even dual is matched with non-dual in that sense.

 

So the real question may not be about the role or meaning of ego, but simply: How did LZ expect the 'without self/ego' aspect to emerge?

 

In a nutshell, now we get to the hallmark phrases in Daoism:  Wu Wei, Zi Ran, etc.  (Lots of threads on these too).

 

If we are operating from these, then we are really in a non-attached state to the manifest world and instead we flow and be one with nature.   We remove the great divide and it no longer exists as a dualistic impulse within us.   If one is doing this, then there is not even the question of 'self'. If the question arises, then they are back in dualistic mode  

 

 

2. Which leads me to another question. 

So I guess my question is, what type of seated meditation do you guys do? I realize it is a highly personal question depending on the reason one meditates.

 

In the past, I focused my sitting meditation on the MCO (Micro-Cosmic Orbit)... Lots of threads on this but getting in touch with the circular flow of Qi that moves from inhale down to the root area and then up the spine and over the head to do the next circle.  There are several variations and precautions.

 

 

Added:  Welcome

[CloudHands]

​many that are probably perceived as childlike to the members of this forum

 

That would be a sign of you taking the right path if any... but don't be impress too much, I was, I discovered there is no reason to be so  

[Swede]

In buddhism, you should come to the realization that there is no permanent, independent self.

 

It is not permanent, because how you think and feel changes during your lifetime.

It is not independent, because everything in existence is where it is as a result of things that has happened before, and are in change because of what other things/creatures are doing.

 

When you realize this, false ego dies.

 

More or less.....

 

 

Thanks for this. I read something that stuck with me a while ago, can’t remember where I read it though. It quite simply explained the sense of ‘self’ as a delusion created by our inner chatter about ‘me’ as the centre of our universe.  As our inner chatter continues its incessant monologue we start to believe in this fictional ‘self’.

 

If one would successfully remove this glue of a narrative about the ‘self’ or ‘me’, one would see we are in fact made up of constantly changing impulses or input and therefore there is no ‘me’ or a set personality. We are in fact always changing, fluid.      

The thing is, intellectually I do understand this, I find it quite obvious it must be so, when I ponder these questions in my own mind. However, when it comes to living and breathing it, I fail and revert back to the instinct or habitual thinking or acting.

 

 

I think I'd agree that particularly Laozi equated ego with 'self'... not sure its worth discussing whether there is really a difference to self-image as neither is the ultimate point.

 

I hear you on the validity of arguing the semantics. I sometimes find myself wrapped up in the wording instead of looking at the greater picture.

 

There is a well known passage in LZ CH. 1 that has been discussed here a lot about  "mystery vs manifest".   I've seen some translations that use the word ego with this that might go something like:

 

Without self/ego, one can observe the mystery

But with self/ego, one will only observe the manifest.

 

My copy of the TTC has:

 

“Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.

Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations.”

 

Desiring equalling ego perhaps, to have attachments as opposed to having no attachments, living with no ego? (Again, wrapping myself up in the wording J)

 

 

It goes on to say that the two are from the same source but become distinct in our [manifest] worldview.  Ergo, the manifest world will reveal everything in a dual state; so even dual is matched with non-dual in that sense.

 

So the real question may not be about the role or meaning of ego, but simply: How did LZ expect the 'without self/ego' aspect to emerge?

 

In a nutshell, now we get to the hallmark phrases in Daoism:  Wu Wei, Zi Ran, etc.  (Lots of threads on these too).

 

If we are operating from these, then we are really in a non-attached state to the manifest world and instead we flow and be one with nature.   We remove the great divide and it no longer exists as a dualistic impulse within us.   If one is doing this, then there is not even the question of 'self'. If the question arises, then they are back in dualistic mode  

 

And yes, to live from these concepts is waay beyond the scope of my knowledge as of now, however, practice practice practice...

 

 

In the past, I focused my sitting meditation on the MCO (Micro-Cosmic Orbit)... Lots of threads on this but getting in touch with the circular flow of Qi that moves from inhale down to the root area and then up the spine and over the head to do the next circle.  There are several variations and precautions.

 

Thank you very much for this. I am very much a novice in all this, not long ago I had only heard of Qi in the movies... so I'm learning heaps here.

 

Added:  Welcome

 

Thank you! The welcome here has been nothing but awesome.

 

 

 

 

That would be a sign of you taking the right path if any... but don't be impress too much, I was, I discovered there is no reason to be so  

 

Hmmm the uncarved block and all that...

 

Speaking of the uncarved block, I struggled with that concept for a while. I took it too literary. A carved block can not be un-carved.  

 

You may be right, a master is only a master if the novice holds the master as a master... or something like that. But I find the knowledge on these boards second to none compared to other boards based on my internet searching. The mandatory internet forum ego pissing competitions, well, you find them everywhere I guess.

 

 

Once again, thanks for all the replies, much appreciated.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Swede

[joti]

Välkommen!

[dawei]

My copy of the TTC has:

 

“Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.

Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations.”

 

Desiring equalling ego perhaps, to have attachments as opposed to having no attachments, living with no ego? (Again, wrapping myself up in the wording J)

 

 

Some even translate that as non-being vs being, ... lots of variations on those two lines..  I just shared a variation using ego. 

 

 

And yes, to live from these concepts is waay beyond the scope of my knowledge as of now, however, practice practice practice...

 

Or do less, less, less... and nothing is not done

 

[Swede]

Välkommen!

Tackar tackar! Vart i Sverige bor du? Jag bodde i Onsala, strax söder om Göteborg. Finns det fler svenskar här?

[Swede]

And yes, to live from these concepts is waay beyond the scope of my knowledge as of now, however, practice practice practice...

 
Or do less, less, less... and nothing is not done


Haha I'm not to sure my wife would like me doing less...

But jokes aside, you make a good point. Trying too hard will get me nowhere but confused.

But what 'doing' should be done less?

If I may offer my limited understanding of wu wei, it's not 'not doing' but 'doing' out of spontaneity or a doing where there is no striving. Where action or 'doing' flows automatically. Am I on the right track?

Almost like careless/carefree or mindless action where the outcome does not matter to me. But how do I reach this state? Especially in spiritual cultivation where my mind is very much involved in analyzing, feeling and searching. My attempts of learning about wu wei and Tao is just more conscious striving, which is in direct opposition to wu wei. Oh, the oxymoron lol.

Anyway, it's late and I need to give my poor brain a rest. Thanks again

[Wu Ming Jen]

I would suggest doing this type of meditation........It was at this time, around the age of 17 or so, whilst sitting there gazing through the window, I had a sudden realisation that I was somehow one with everything. I felt an immense peace, and however fleeting it was, it lasted for quite some time and it translated into everyday life. Nothing seemed to stress me out and the typical teenage woes did not bother me as I felt at peace.  

 

The great image is imageless there is nothing for mind to attach to and there is nothing to accomplish you are already complete and not separate from all of creation.

 

Its funny how we take in information it's like it comes in through one of the senses and gets stuck in our body making up me, self, ego we just have to remember that our body is also floating in the infinite awareness right along with everything and no thing around us.

[dawei]

But what 'doing' should be done less?

If I may offer my limited understanding of wu wei, it's not 'not doing' but 'doing' out of spontaneity or a doing where there is no striving. Where action or 'doing' flows automatically. Am I on the right track?

 

Almost like careless/carefree or mindless action where the outcome does not matter to me. But how do I reach this state? Especially in spiritual cultivation where my mind is very much involved in analyzing, feeling and searching. My attempts of learning about wu wei and Tao is just more conscious striving, which is in direct opposition to wu wei. Oh, the oxymoron lol.

 

I'd say both wheels are on the track

 

I'd start with how attachment and distinction work to form you sense of 'self'.  

 

And the goal isn't no-self but having no attachment nor distinction as self.

[Swede]

[Swede]

I finally decided on learning samatha meditation as I figured whatever else I want to try later on will be greatly assisted by a focused mind. Now I have a question I was hoping you guys could help me with.

 

I have not had one session in which I haven't nodded off at least a few times. Although I 'wake' up immediately and restart counting the breaths again, I feel it takes away from the meditation. I have tried sitting with my eyes open but it feels unnatural and I continuously blink my eyes hard as if they are getting dry. I work shift work so I sit at different times a day. On a day shift I roll out of bed and I sit at 4.30am. This is the worst time. On days off or night shifts I sit around midday when the little ones go down for a sleep straight after a training sesh in the garage gym. Even then I struggle. Does anyone have any technique to stay concentrated and awake?

 

On a side note, I started having this weird sensation a few times. Out of nowhere when I'm peacefully counting my breaths, I get a strong feeling or emotion I would describe as excitement. It feels like the whole body is tingling. I'm careful with any psychosomatic experiences and I just observe the feeling and let is slowly dissipate and go away. I don't want to get to the point where I expect this feeling and therefor create it every time I sit.

 

But a few times I have stayed with it and it grows much stronger. I feel as if my arms and legs are tingling and this pressure or a force goes up into my head where it builds up. I start to cold-sweat and it feels like I have high blood pressure. It is not uncomfortable or anything, just feels odd. If I hold my breath after the out breath the feeling of pressure almost makes my head grow.

[thelerner]

Does anyone have any technique to stay concentrated and awake?

 

Yes, , I call it coffee, w/ a french press.

 

Working mixed shifts can be a killer for ones wakefulness.  If you sleep during meditation, then that's exactly what your body needs.  It's not so bad.  Still keeping the lights on and attention to your posture helps.   Meditations can be done standing too. 

 

Which reminds me.  There's a body hack that uses strong coffee or a double espresso.  You drink then immediately nap, from what I hear its oddly rejuvenating - https://blog.bulletproof.com/coffee-naps-bulletproof-power-nap/ .   Half technique, half drug.. 

[Swede]

Yes, , I call it coffee, w/ a french press.

 

Working mixed shifts can be a killer for ones wakefulness.  If you sleep during meditation, then that's exactly what your body needs.  It's not so bad.  Still keeping the lights on and attention to your posture helps.   Meditations can be done standing too. 

 

Which reminds me.  There's a body hack that uses strong coffee or a double espresso.  You drink then immediately nap, from what I hear its oddly rejuvenating - https://blog.bulletproof.com/coffee-naps-bulletproof-power-nap/ .   Half technique, half drug..

 

Thanks for that. I looked at that webpage, the 'bulletproof power nap' sounds very interesting. I'll give a shot!

Cheers

[Swede]

I was thinking about ego today whilst driving home from work. It's funny how the usual drive home can be a lesson in life.

 

My drive that takes 30 minutes in the morning takes about 50 minutes in the afternoon due to heavy suburban traffic. I was stuck at a set of lights for a while when I noticed several cars were creeping down the turning lane next to me only to push in down at the intersection. No wonder I was sitting there for longer than usual!

 

I could feel the anger creeping up inside me. Mindful as I was I felt the raised pulse, the blood pressure in my head, I noticed my jaw clenching, the 'heat' inside as pure anger welled up inside. I realized it was my ego getting hurt. "How dare they do this to me!?" I could feel the anger pushing me beyond what I could reason away. The anger felt good... liberating. The anger started to take over, I was angry. No, I was ANGER! No way I would let anyone push in front of me! If they tried I would rip their head off and... No, not really. All this road rage violence inside me was all in my head (and slightly exaggerated for illustrative purposes ;-)

 

But it made me think. How does a person go through life if one has successfully realized ego, and managed to live ego-free(ish)? One would be a pushover, forever taken advantage of by other less mindful people? Or maybe the issue of being pushed back in the que of traffic would have been a non-issue in the first place?

[Marblehead]

Thing is, they were doing it to everyone else too.  And yes, that pisses me off too.  I used to, when driving regularly on a daily basis, when that happened to me, straddle he emergency lane and the lane I was in so that no one else could do the same thing.

 

It's not just about our ego.  It's about doing the right thing.  They were doing the wrong thing.  They need be taught a lesson.

[hart]

everything just is and it is us that give meaning to events and situations.

 

anger can be a great tool if somebody is out to hurt you physically or emotionally, but not to hurt them, just to establish and strengthen your boundaries if it is needed.

 

about being a pushover i think that we owe yourself the courtesy to react when something does not seem to be right. then later on we can think thru that situation and see if we acted accordingly to our values.

[dawei]

It's not just about our ego.  It's about doing the right thing.  They were doing the wrong thing.  They need be taught a lesson.

 

This is part of the problem with living in a heavy laden, rule-based society... our very being takes on 'injustice' in a way that is not really there.

[cold]

It's not personal, yet we often see it that way.