Where is the real middle way?

[daimai]

I can't seem to be able to unite two points off view.

 

The one that says that there's nothing you can do about yourself because you can never improve yourself by your own selfish effort because you are one continuous process, that it would be like pulling yourself up by your own bootraps. Of course you could give yourself the illusion of trying, but ultimately, it's only one happening. Let's say this is the Taoist point of view

 

The other point of view would be rather Confucian, in that you need to develop structure, discipline, competence, morals and good hygiene in order to spiritually advance in life. That one is in full power of his own self transformation and evolution and it is the individual's duty to put in this hard work.

 

This is the problem of divine grace. Some meditators propone that spiritual practice will at least make you a better and more expedient conduit to whenever the time comes that you receive the gift of union. While others receive it spontaneously.

 

The question is what do we do in the meantime?  Become wholly present?  But that's the same problem; how can you make yourself become present if you are not present?

Edited October 30, 2016 by daimai

[Karl]

What makes you think you aren't present ?

[Marblehead]

We are always present in the manifest.  Changing, sure, but always present in the moment.

 

Mentally present is a different story. 

 

Actually, Daimai, this sounds like the argument of free will vs destiny/fate.

 

There are really a lot of good points within Confucianism but please don't tell anyone I said that.

 

 

So I will agree that there is nothing we can do to change our birth given attributes.  But we can develop what we have been given.  We can even expand these attributes so that they overlap to strengthen attributes we are weakest of.  This is why most people decide to take on a practice of some type or another.

 

 

The Middle Path (way) is basically finding "your" path of least resistance.  Be all that we can be but yet accept that there are some things we will never be.

 

I hold to the concepts of free will and the will to power.  (That is, power over my self.)  (Don't worry about defining "self" right now.)

 

Being honest with our self is very important here.  We need to find a path that does not cause us inner conflict.

[Jeff]

I can't seem to be able to unite two points off view.

 

The one that says that there's nothing you can do about yourself because you can never improve yourself by your own selfish effort because you are one continuous process, that it would be like pulling yourself up by your own bootraps. Of course you could give yourself the illusion of trying, but ultimately, it's only one happening. Let's say this is the Taoist point of view

 

The other point of view would be rather Confucian, in that you need to develop structure, discipline, competence, morals and good hygiene in order to spiritually advance in life. That one is in full power of his own self transformation and evolution and it is the individual's duty to put in this hard work.

 

This is the problem of divine grace. Some meditators propone that spiritual practice will at least make you a better and more expedient conduit to whenever the time comes that you receive the gift of union. While others receive it spontaneously.

 

The question is what do we do in the meantime?  Become wholly present?  But that's the same problem; how can you make yourself become present if you are not present?

Excellent questions. Thank you.

 

I believe that there is much you can do, but that "doing" is much more about letting go of issues and fears. It is those issues and attachments that block the divine grace of which you speak. Confusion comes from the perception of personally doing, and the ego attachments that result from it.

 

One becomes present when you do not get caught up in the autopilot mental responses that happen by reacting to those subconscious issues and fears.

 

The key is learning to open your heart. Letting go of issues and fears is very hard as they are often seen as the armor that protects us from living in the world around us. But dropping that armor is what is necessary to find what you are looking for.

 

If you wish to have something proactive to do, then I would describe it like this... forgiveness. Forgive everyone for everything, especially yourself. Such forgiveness opens your heart, makes room for others, and calls out to the divine...

[Jetsun]

I can't seem to be able to unite two points off view.

 

The one that says that there's nothing you can do about yourself because you can never improve yourself by your own selfish effort because you are one continuous process, that it would be like pulling yourself up by your own bootraps. Of course you could give yourself the illusion of trying, but ultimately, it's only one happening. Let's say this is the Taoist point of view

 

The other point of view would be rather Confucian, in that you need to develop structure, discipline, competence, morals and good hygiene in order to spiritually advance in life. That one is in full power of his own self transformation and evolution and it is the individual's duty to put in this hard work.

 

This is the problem of divine grace. Some meditators propone that spiritual practice will at least make you a better and more expedient conduit to whenever the time comes that you receive the gift of union. While others receive it spontaneously.

 

The question is what do we do in the meantime?  Become wholly present?  But that's the same problem; how can you make yourself become present if you are not present?

 

As my understanding has developed the way I see it now is that some of your Vasana's or destructive latent tendencies can be overcome through discipline and structure and by right living, including paying attention to developing karmic merit. Yet there are other of your latent tendencies which can only be overcome through divine grace, or through the long process of paying off your karmic burden. 

 

So really both are true, you need both discipline and grace, they aren't mutually exclusive.

 

Although at least these days you can awaken before you have conquered your Vasanas, the reason for this is not clear, for many it appears like it is completely random like in the case of Eckhart Tolle or Byron Katie, but I wouldn't recommend giving up on effort just yet just because some cases are random or divine providence, the majority use effort until the time effort isn't necessary, so it all depends on where you are at.

 

The way one of my teachers put it is that yes it is true that union or awakening is down to divine grace, there absolutely is nothing you can do to make it happen, yet similar to trying to get a promotion at work you do whatever you can to make yourself attractive and in the best position and situation that you are a good candidate for it to occur. Or as Adyashanti says you can bring yourself to the cliff edge and there is no way that you would ever jump yourself as the survival drive of the ego is too strong, but if you are at the edge then its possible a "strong wind" may come and blow you over.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Jetsun

[Seeker of Wisdom]

[...] The one that says that there's nothing you can do about yourself because you can never improve yourself by your own selfish effort because you are one continuous process, that it would be like pulling yourself up by your own bootraps. Of course you could give yourself the illusion of trying, but ultimately, it's only one happening. [...]

 

I'll disagree with this view. We all know from our own experience that it is possible to achieve change. We have neuroplasticity. Practice results in greater skill, thinking and acting in certain ways results in personal changes.

 

There's the argument though that although we may be able to get to a certain 'readiness' by personal effort, we cannot become awakened under our own power because so long as we have some delusion anything we do will be tainted by it and so be in some way self-centered, ego-reinforcing - which would mean we need divine grace to cross that gap.

 

I can see the logic there, but I think differently.

 

I'm rereading Thanissaro's Wings to Awakening right now - a lot of the stuff he writes about skillfulness and karma is very illuminating on this IMHO. I'll try to summarize some of what he has to say.

 

So our unawakened experience works by the past setting the conditions for the present.  In the present, we choose to do certain things. What we do in the present might build up on what happened in the past (keep practicing piano, you'll play better) or move it in a different direction (stop drinking, over time urges decrease). So what we've got is a net of positive and negative feedback loops. There are certain points in this net where it is possible to enter present input (seeing the four noble truths, etc.) which unbinds this system (awakening) by deleting the delusions integral to it. 

 

It isn't possible to do this until you've cultivated skill to see things that clearly (virtue, concentration, insight). But it is possible to cross that bridge by your own practice. You do the practice until your insight removes the problem - you can't just delete the problem, but you can cultivate insight which will.

 

My 2 cents.

[ChiForce]

The middle way, the Tao, is not a way.  As long as you are working for your ego, the existential "I," your entire life decisions are dictated by this delusional "I."  The "I" would continue to progress until it hits a wall.  Is like driving on a highway with ice on the road.  Once you are losing control of your cars and the tires aren't griping, no matter how hard you try to press the brakes and to steer the car, it won't stop.  

 

You need to understand the nature and the reality of your ego, the "I."  Only then, you can make the correct, and moral decisions about yourself and others (it would happen naturally)...because you can now see all the facades and pathways or leads of your entire decisions and how it will affect yourself and others.  Your decisions would transcend time and space because you will see the past, the present, and the future. 

Edited October 30, 2016 by ChiForce

[Wu Ming Jen]

Once we remember that we all use the same light of awareness and all that we see is part of us and shared by everyone, perception changes transcending a temporary situation in duality and  re united with the eternal.

 

The materialist have taken power and would rather not have people become aware,  it makes them unnecessary.

 

There are many systems in place to mis direct humanity for very lowly ambitions used by religions and politics for example.

 

Many true spiritual traditions cause the disciple to fully engage in duality, ego, mind so they can for themselves discovery that they simply do not exist.

 

 As the saying goes "I can not pacify my mind (teacher) then show me you mind (student) I can not find it (teacher) now I have pacified your mind for you.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Wu Ming Jen

[RiverSnake]

Practice Chi Kung. Don't think, do!

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NL0MromO7yE

[Wu Ming Jen]

Knowing is doing, doing is knowing

[3bob]

a "strong wind" - 

[Jetsun]

a "strong wind" -

Enlightenment via God's flatulence

[3bob]

that's omnipotent...