Translating Zhuangzi part 1

[dust]

Translating Zhuangzi, in multiple parts, part 1.

 

The idea is to discuss the Zhuangzi from the Chinese up, with a view to finding ideas not always obvious in the English translations and to look thoroughly at alternative possibilities.

 

I think the best way might be looking at the Chinese section by section (as divided on ctext), doing some translation ourselves, and comparing various translations, as well as identifying and discussing the various concepts and meanings within. We could all learn a bit of ancient Chinese as well as some philosophy, history, history of philosophy, etc...

 

All input is welcomed. It should be good for anyone who (like me) feels like a nuisance posting constant language problems in threads where everyone else is mostly aiming to discuss the philosophy; but it will be dry and much less stimulating without such philosophical input, so don't hold it back; and do not think that not speaking Chinese is a reason not to participate in the language part of it: everyone with internet and a brain is capable of doing basic research on Chinese and ancient Chinese, even if it is slower going for some!

 

So: I post a section in the Chinese, and we discuss that section; discussion of the next section doesn't start until this previous section has been covered (and there doesn't seem to be much left to say about it), at which time I'll post the next.

 

It's an experiment. First section of chapter one in next post.

Edited November 2, 2016 by dustybeijing

[dust]

內篇         Inner Chapters

逍遙遊          Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease / Carefree Wandering / Free and Easy Wandering

 

Section 1

北冥有魚，其名為鯤。鯤之大，不知其幾千里也。
化而為鳥，其名為鵬。鵬之背，不知其幾千里也；
怒而飛，其翼若垂天之雲。

是鳥也，海運則將徙於南冥。
南冥者，天池也。

《齊諧》者，志怪者也。

 

《諧》之言曰：「鵬之徙於南冥也，水擊三千里，

摶扶搖而上者九萬里，去以六月息者也。」

 

野馬也，塵埃也，生物之以息相吹也。

天之蒼蒼，其正色邪？

其遠而無所至極邪？

其視下也亦若是，則已矣。

 

且夫水之積也不厚，則負大舟也無力。

覆杯水於坳堂之上，則芥為之舟，置杯焉則膠，水淺而舟大也。

風之積也不厚，則其負大翼也無力。

故九萬里則風斯在下矣，而後乃今培風；

背負青天而莫之夭閼者，而後乃今將圖南。

 

蜩與學鳩笑之曰：「我決起而飛，槍榆、枋，時則不至而控於地而已矣，

奚以之九萬里而南為？」

 

適莽蒼者三湌而反，腹猶果然；

適百里者宿舂糧；

適千里者三月聚糧。

之二蟲又何知！

小知不及大知，小年不及大年。奚以知其然也？

朝菌不知晦朔，蟪蛄不知春秋，此小年也。

楚之南有冥靈者，以五百歲為春，五百歲為秋；

上古有大椿者，以八千歲為春，八千歲為秋。

 

而彭祖乃今以久特聞，眾人匹之，不亦悲乎！

Edited October 30, 2016 by dustybeijing

[dust]

This should be fairly straightforward...?

Gonna go with the very literal style for now.

 

 

北冥有魚，其名為鯤。鯤之大，不知其幾千里也。

The Northern deep has fish, its name wei (is) Kun. Kun's greatness/largeness, don't know how many thousand li

 

化而為鳥，其名為鵬。鵬之背，不知其幾千里也；

turns into bird, its name wei Peng. (the breadth of) Peng's back, don't know how many thousand li

 

怒而飛，其翼若垂天之雲。

(when) in a passion it flies, its wings seem like clouds hanging in the sky

 

是鳥也，海運則將徙於南冥。

(when it) is a bird, (when) the ocean moves (stormy) it migrates to the Southern deep

 

南冥者，天池也。

The Southern deep is the pool/lake of heaven*

 

《齊諧》者，志怪者也。

"Qi Xie" is a record of curiosities (curious tales)

 

《諧》之言曰：「鵬之徙於南冥也，水擊三千里，

Xie says: "On Peng's migration to the Southern deep, waters beat** for three thousand li

 

摶扶搖而上者九萬里，

it flaps and soars up to ninety thousand li

 

去以六月息者也。」

and travels on a six-month wind / breath

 

 

 

*pool of heaven? what does this mean?

 

** the waters are beaten, or the waters beat? is it Peng beating the water, or the roiling water causing it to migrate?

Edited October 30, 2016 by dustybeijing

[LAOLONG]

Chinese alchimy ,water ,north ,fish is going up to south, fire , bird.

Pool of heaven ,top of th head.

[dust]

Ah. All tied to the Yijing, yes?

 

Kun is 坎 kan, water/winter, the phase of stillness, the North; and Peng is 離 li, fire/summer, the phase of energy, the South.

 

Cool.

 

About 'pool of heaven' -- I'm not knowledgeable, but if we're talking points on the body, what about this?

 

And so, the text is perhaps saying that the point (whether it's the top of the head or somewhere else) is a source of energy?

[sagebrush]

the waters beat is rhythm or movement of the waters.undulation

 

hope that is permissible.

 

it is a beautiful script and I think the words are very beautiful

 

I would have to contemplate it a bit.

Edited October 30, 2016 by sagebrush

[Aetherous]

Interesting that this might have connections to alchemy, considering that neidan came about so much later in history...

[dawei]

*pool of heaven? what does this mean?

 

** the waters are beaten, or the waters beat? is it Peng beating the water, or the roiling water causing it to migrate?

 

In such cases of LZ or ZZ, I look for any duality comparisons going on... So to me, clearly he is setting up the Northern Deep vs Southern Deep;  The ND as [physical] waters and SD as heaven[ly water].

[dust]

Wow. A lot to find in just this first little bit.

 

I'm definitely convinced by the comparisons so far. If not alchemy (as Aetherous says, perhaps the timeline is a bit off?) it does at least fit perfectly with water and fire as laid out in the I Ching. How to highlight these comparisons in a translation (for people who might not catch them) without spelling it out?

 

I'm also struck by some word choices. Particularly the last line there, with 息

 

Legge translates as 'rest', Watson as 'gale', and Mair as 'jet stream'. It has meanings in old Chinese as sigh, breath, rest, stop, calm down, and more -- perhaps 'wind' though I can't find it. Perhaps ZZ chose it because of these meanings, making it unclear whether Peng is riding a wind or a breath, whether the wind is his breath, or whether he's resting after 6 months. The structure 去以...者 seems to make it "travels by a..."

Edited October 31, 2016 by dustybeijing

[dawei]

I'm hoping to participate more but for now...

 

why not follow the commas:   The Southern Deep, the pool/lake of Heaven  

 

 

Re: Hanging in the sky... or hung from the sky

 

Re: Waters Beat... from the flapping wings [power], right?

 

Re: Six months...  need to decide if he flew for six months and rested or the winds/gales lasted for six months from the flapping

[dust]

I'm hoping to participate more but for now...

 

why not follow the commas:   The Southern Deep, the pool/lake of Heaven 

 

Yes, that would've been the truly literal way. Good point.

 

The "Re:" are for your later consideration?

 

 

 

I also forgot to mention further re: 是鳥也海運則將徙於南冥

 

The first bit, 是鸟也, doesn't seem to get translated, and I'm not sure what I've got is very good ('when it's a bird..')

 

And Baidu suggests that 海运 refers to a tsunami: the ocean moves/lurches, and so it migrates to the Southern Deep

[dust]

I could have sworn I'd seen this part discussed before on the site, but I can't find it. It had to do with translation of 'horses' vs 'gusts' or whatever.

 

 

野馬也，塵埃也，生物之以息相吹也。

wild horses, dust, living things blown about by the wind (/ by each other's breath?)

 

天之蒼蒼，

deep blue the heavens/sky,

 

其正色邪？

is this the true colour?

 

其遠而無所至極邪？

(or) is it so distant so as to be without such limitation?

 

其視下也亦若是，則已矣。

(when it [Peng]) looks down (from there) it appears the same

[dawei]

Yes, that would've been the truly literal way. Good point.

 

The "Re:" are for your later consideration?

 

 

 

I also forgot to mention further re: 是鳥也海運則將徙於南冥

 

The first bit, 是鸟也, doesn't seem to get translated, and I'm not sure what I've got is very good ('when it's a bird..')

 

And Baidu suggests that 海运 refers to a tsunami: the ocean moves/lurches, and so it migrates to the Southern Deep

 

I wonder if the two sentences almost just belong together, and that bit is just suggesting 'this bird' and why nobody translates it; meaning the previous part shows it is flying so of course as a bird.

 

And the ocean moves... I'm thinking seasonal change has caused the ocean to become rough so time to 'fly south'

 

 

Your translation of "passion", I'm thinking vigor as the section seems to emphasis his size and strength.

 

so maybe something like:

 

In vigorous flight, its wings seem like clouds hung in the sky

This bird, when the ocean changes [seasons] will migrate to the Southern Deep.

[dawei]

The "Re:" are for your later consideration?

 

Just comments and first thoughts.

 

I think the water is being beat from the powerful flapping and then the wind moved for six months due to that.

[dawei]

I could have sworn I'd seen this part discussed before on the site, but I can't find it. It had to do with translation of 'horses' vs 'gusts' or whatever.

 

Me too... did we have the same dream... I couldn't find it either.

 

 

Here is Nina's translation:

http://daoisopen.com/ZhuangziTranslation.html

 

 

In an unexplored area in the far north, there was a fish whose name was Kun. The Kun was so big that no one could figure out how many feet across it was. It transformed into a bird whose name was Peng. No one could figure out how many feet across its back was. When it burst into flight, its wings seemed to hang in the sky like clouds. This bird had the capacity to make its move to an unexplored area in the far south where the sky was like a large lake.

 

From Qi Xie's "Tales of the Supernatural" (a book of legends and myths):

Xie wrote:

"On the Peng's migration to the unexplored south, it beat against the water for a thousand miles. It spiraled upward like a cyclone for thirty thousand miles. It traveled for six months before it stopped to rest. Horses went wild. Dust and dirt flew everywhere. The creatures on the earth had their breath taken away by all that wind blowing everywhere."

 

The sky is one shade of blue. Is that its original color? No matter how far it extends, is it without an end? Might the sky appear the same when looking down from above?

 

 

Interesting that she makes it about the migration. 

 

[dust]

Yeah. When I was going through it all, I thought it was odd that none of the translations I looked at -- Legge, Watson, Mair -- had used the word migration. I think it's suitable.

 

"Where the sky was like a large lake" is unusual. I don't think the Chinese implies that. (ZZ uses 若 in this section to talk of likeness e.g. 翼若垂天之雲)

[dust]

This topic concept is a work in progress and I apologize for the tone of the OP when I first posted it. Edits have been made to it.

 

I first suggested that "progress goes at my pace", realizing at the time how dictatorial it sounded but not knowing a better way to proceed. It seems obvious that such a task needs a bit of a guiding hand. It's something I've wanted to do for a while, and as nobody else has posted such a translation-based topic (recently anyway), I have created it and will guide it.

 

But progress doesn't need to go at my pace: it will go at the pace it goes. It just won't go faster than it needs to; I won't post a section, and we won't discuss it, until conversation on the section before it has dried up. But nothing stopping us from going back to a section at some point and readdressing something -- just no skipping forward. Just seems to make sense this way.

Edited November 2, 2016 by dustybeijing

[sagebrush]

ok

Edited November 3, 2016 by sagebrush

[dust]

ok

 

You said something about buying a note book. I was going to say, if you make your own notes, do share them here.

 

Anyway.. guess I'll carry on with the section....

 

 

 

且夫水之積也不厚，則負大舟也無力。

Furthermore, accumulation of water not deep/substantial, then it has no power to support a great boat

 

覆杯水於坳堂之上，則芥為之舟，

overturn cup of water onto (a depression in the ground?), a bit of grass will be as a boat

 

置杯焉則膠，水淺而舟大也。

place cup there it will stick, the water (too) shallow the boat (too) great

 

風之積也不厚，則其負大翼也無力。

Accumulation of wind not substantial, then it has no power to support great wings

 

故九萬里則風斯在下矣，而後乃今培風；

So, with a wind beneath the full ninety thousand li, then can go with the wind

 

背負青天而莫之夭閼者，而後乃今將圖南。

bearing up the blue sky without hindrance, then can head south

 

蜩與學鳩笑之曰：「我決起而飛，槍榆枋，時則不至而控於地而已矣，

cicada and turtle doves laugh, saying "I can hop up and fly, into an elm or sandalwood, but often as not I just drop back to the ground;

 

奚以之九萬里而南為？」

what's the point of going ninety thousand li?!"

 

 

 

Mostly seems pretty straightforward but the last lines got me wondering.

 

The animals seem to say, "Sometimes we don't even bother with that little distance..so what's the point of going a whole 90,000 li??!"

 

This should fit with what comes next, where ZZ suggests that the understanding of these animals is limited: they don't see the point, but for some (like Peng) it is a necessity

Edited November 3, 2016 by dust

[sagebrush]

 lazy river and this particular day.

 

 settled in 

 

a little pile up of various shapes and colors of leaves.....between the rock  and the bank

 

 I noticed a spider on one of the leaves......using it like a boat...

 

like above: a bit of grass will be as a boat.

 

the leaf was the boat for the spider.

 

it was gray

 

it never moved

 

thank you for posting these------lines. I wrote this one down

Edited November 6, 2016 by sagebrush

[dawei]

You said something about buying a note book. I was going to say, if you make your own notes, do share them here.

 

Anyway.. guess I'll carry on with the section....

 

 

 

 

Mostly seems pretty straightforward but the last lines got me wondering.

 

The animals seem to say, "Sometimes we don't even bother with that little distance..so what's the point of going a whole 90,000 li??!"

 

This should fit with what comes next, where ZZ suggests that the understanding of these animals is limited: they don't see the point, but for some (like Peng) it is a necessity

 

so something like:

 

Water lacking depth lacks strength [to float a boat].  

Put a cup of water in a hole and it can carry a twig or grass but cannot carry the cup [lack of depth=lack of strength].

Air lacking depth lacks strength [to float a birds wings--like Peng]

Thus Peng ascends to 90,000 li where the [depth of] wind can bear his great wings.

With the sky at his back and without obstruction (difficulty in flight), he can [easily] make his way south.

 

The cicada and turtle doves are limited in wings and thus don't need depth of air. As such, they don't grasp that their small size should just pursue what they are capable of while Peng's size is something they are not capable of actually doing nor understanding.   That Peng's size allows him to ascend to 90,000 li also likely means he is capable of getting south with ease, as easy as the cicada flies into an Elm.   I suspect Peng flies easier as the small animals but easily fall to the ground while he can simply soar along without effort.

[Stosh]

Its suggesting the issues of scale are relative , that ones ambitions desires and needs may be either scaled up or down ,, the same principles still apply. The issues before a King are the same ilk as that of the Peon. 

Why then set grandiose goals one cant easily reach? since we are not 'literally' in the same position, and minimizing what one expects or wants , make happiness attainable. 

Edited November 7, 2016 by Stosh

[dust]

適莽蒼者三湌而反腹猶果然；

one who goes out in green pastures, full day's meals return, belly satisfied

 

適百里者宿舂糧；

one who goes out a hundred li, overnight grind grain/provisions

 

適千里者三月聚糧。

one who goes out a thousand li, three months collect grain/provisions

 

之二蟲又何知！

what do these two little creatures know!

 

小知不及大知，小年不及大年。

little wisdom not reach great wisdom, short-lived not reach long-lived

 

奚以知其然也？

how to know this?

 

朝菌不知晦朔，蟪蛄不知春秋，此小年也。

morning/daylight fungus knows nothing of moon phases, the (seasonal) cicada knows nothing of spring and autumn (being born in summer and dying before winter); these are those of small years

 

楚之南有冥靈者，以五百歲為春五百歲為秋；

south of Chu has Mingling tree, for which five hundred years makes a spring, five hundred years makes an autumn

 

上古有大椿者，以八千歲為春，八千歲為秋。

in ancient times had (the great tree) Dachun, for which 8 thousand years made spring, 8 thousand year made autumn

 

而彭祖乃今以久特聞，眾人匹之，不亦悲乎！

and Pengzu is now the most well-known for being old, isn't it sad that so many try to compare to him!

[dust]

Well, no conversation there so I guess I'll move on to the next bit. Probably don't need to spend long on this as it's mostly repetitive.

 

內篇         Inner Chapters

逍遙遊     Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease / Carefree Wandering / Free and Easy Wandering

 

Section 2

 

 

湯之問棘也是已。

Tang ask Ji is the same

 

窮髮之北，有冥海者，天池也。

poor/bare barren North, there is deep ocean, Pool of Heaven

 

有魚焉，其廣數千里，未有知其脩者，其名為鯤。

there is fish, many thousand li, nobody knows the length, name is Kun

 

有鳥焉，其名為鵬，背若泰山，翼若垂天之雲，

there is bird, named Peng, a back like Taishan, wings like clouds hanging in the sky,

 

摶扶搖羊角而上者九萬里，

flaps and soars (spinning up like the whorls of a) goat's horns and rises 90 thousand li,

 

絕雲氣，負青天，然後圖南，且適南冥也。

cut cloudy air, bear blue sky, then head south, goes to the southern deep

 

斥鴳笑之曰：

ridiculing quail laughs saying:

 

「彼且奚適也？我騰躍而上，不過數仞而下，翱翔蓬蒿之間，此亦飛之至也。而彼且奚適也？」

Where is it going? I spring up, come down after a few ren (fathoms), fly among the plants, this is the height of flight. So where is it going?

 

此小大之辯也。

this is difference between small and great

 

 

Well this feels like a waste of time... Legge's translation is not to be faulted here, as I can see.

Edited March 16, 2017 by dust

[Marblehead]

Yeah, this thread is just bad timing for me as I am involved with the Mair translation.

 

Agree, Legge's translation is not to be faulted.  It is a great work.