Energy Feeling and Pain Around the Heart.

[Jeff]

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/40543-misconceptions-of-qigong-neidan-alchemy-20/?p=676085

 

Sure;) let me know if this is bold enough.

 

 

Very interesting points on the "zen sickness".  Things like that can definitely happen to advanced meditators, but I am surprised that they didn't have the insights to more effectively diagnose what what happening at an energetic level.  Or the teacher not able to help with the physical issues.

[Shad282]

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/40543-misconceptions-of-qigong-neidan-alchemy-20/?p=676085

 

Sure;) let me know if this is bold enough.

Well you wrote a lot, but to be honest, it is a lot, but for me, i don't believe in negative effect of focus and intention. it is something natural. it is introspection, and won't actually kill you just pointing your mind on a specific place. Also, i studied vipassana, in a vipassana retreat and it is for free and 2 teachers and assistant there and everything was for free the sleep+food all... so wasn't commercial plus i used to practice it without actually knowing about it.

 

Also, i don't believe in the negative or bad entities, energy, or magic and negative result of energy or focus. believing in such stuff is like add imagination and mind thoughts into the concept of chi and energy because:

 

A fish won't choke on water.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Shad282

[silent thunder]

First, I'd consult with my teacher.

 

If my teacher wasn't a Dr. of TCM, I would also consult a Dr. of TCM and a Western Physician. 

[awaken]

You use too much fire, 武火.

 

When you get to the point -the fire is enough, you need to turn down the fire.

 

It means you need more relax, even fall asleep.

 

I had this state about three years.

 

Every time I practiced , I fell asleep in seconds.

 

After I slept for almost 3 years, my heart was opened and I saw many beautiful inner views, snow fly, mandala, full moon, red sun, even yang Shen.

 

So what you have to do is lie down, don't sit , when you practice.

 

And relax until fall asleep.

 

Maybe you will sleep for 12 hours a day and last for 3 years.

 

But it worth.

 

If you pass the stage, you will know why.

[Shad282]

You use too much fire, 武火.

 

When you get to the point -the fire is enough, you need to turn down the fire.

 

It means you need more relax, even fall asleep.

 

I had this state about three years.

 

Every time I practiced , I fell asleep in seconds.

 

After I slept for almost 3 years, my heart was opened and I saw many beautiful inner views, snow fly, mandala, full moon, red sun, even yang Shen.

 

So what you have to do is lie down, don't sit , when you practice.

 

And relax until fall asleep.

 

Maybe you will sleep for 12 hours a day and last for 3 years.

 

But it worth.

 

If you pass the stage, you will know why.

you are right, but not sure if able to find time to stay asleep all that time. a lot of things must be done... 

[Taoist Texts]

 

After I slept for almost 3 years, my heart was opened and I saw many beautiful inner views, snow fly, mandala, full moon, red sun, even yang Shen.

 

Sounds wonderful, can you tell us how yang shen looks like? What does it do? Thanks.

[awaken]

Yang Shang only show up for a few seconds.

 

But I am not sure if it is ok to describe it here.

 

Because it is not easy to describe, imagines is easy to say, but the 入定ding is not easy to say.

 

Some people who don't pass the illusion stage may misunderstand what I said.

 

They looks like a hologram.

 

All red

 

But first time, it is just a white shado.

 

 

I don't know what it can do.

 

I think I just go into another stage, yang Shan need many years to change.

 

In 楞伽經，it is called 意生身

 

There are three stages of these changes.

 

I am just a beginner of the first stage.

 

Only in 三昧正受，yang Shang can show up.

 

If you want to "use" yang Shang , you need more cultivate to let it change to the third stage.

 

And it is almost Buddha's world.

 

 

 

Dear shad

 

If you don't spend time in Ying, you will not go through the stage.

 

The stage of opening heart need many years.

 

What you do is only practice Yang, no Ying.

 

Every time you practice, Yang come first and Ying come after Yang.

 

If you don't let yourself go inside Ying.

 

It's impossible to pass the biggest stuck, you can not open the tunnel of Kundalini中脈.

Edited November 24, 2016 by awaken

[Shad282]

 

 

Dear shad

 

If you don't spend time in Ying, you will not go through the stage.

 

The stage of opening heart need many years.

 

What you do is only practice Yang, no Ying.

 

Every time you practice, Yang come first and Ying come after Yang.

 

If you don't let yourself go inside Ying.

 

It's impossible to pass the biggest stuck, you can not open the tunnel of Kundalini中脈.

 

I was wondering if there is a practice other than sleeping that would help in ying? because if i oversleep (or sleep less), i wake up very tired. I m used to sleep 8 hours a day, been years like that.

 

Also, I do practice vipassana or going through the body with focus/intention on each part to feel the sensations there, it is when i feel pains on some places of the body like the area around the heart, but i thought vipassana or such techniques are ying? since they are more passive?

 

is qigong ying or yang? and is there a way to identify whether a practice is ying or yang ?

 

I do have some deep inside big anger that comes out when triggered sometimes, i think it is yang...

 

Thank you very much for your information and help  

 

[de_paradise]

Hi Shad,

 

I have the same symptom of painful ring thing around the heart, that I can sense more easily at night in bed,  and you can perhaps look at my own diagnosis and compare to yours, although I dont have meridian pains or some other sexual energy build up issue you mention, I do have sadness, which upon closer study is due to a very selfish lifestyle. When people are absorbed in themselves only, its very easy to feel depressed. 

 

 

 The heart center is the physical entry point of our ego, the thing which binds us to this programmed attached life, fear and desire, samasara. Why I say it is the center of the ego, is that is where the first pain (of and fear or pain of a desire being thwarted) actually hits the body, it comes in energetically like a squid around the heart center, and it gets subsequently translated into physical tension of muscles and nerve around the area. The physical tension gets interpreted by your mind as negative feelings, and the mind spins in negative thinking thoughts.

 

The solution I have come up with is just witnessing the heart center, turning my attention to the heart as various physical tensions or feelings tend to waft around. I have tried breathing into it, however it is too deliberate, too strong,  and tends to suppress not dissolve the pain away. So to witness and to not attach interpretations of the pain, not to label it, turning it into a kind of meditation on the heart, is how the solution works. But alas this is only a temporary ointment to a larger problem, which I have mentioned, is selfishness, and the general use of your heart only for fear and greed, instead of higher emotions.

 

In summary, I think this is far from opening the heart center as some have mentioned, but it is closer to discovering the pain of existence of an unenlightened human, and localizing a key source of the pain, a place where subtle energy body interfaces with the physical body.

[Shad282]

Hi Shad,

 

I have the same symptom of painful ring thing around the heart, that I can sense more easily at night in bed,  and you can perhaps look at my own diagnosis and compare to yours, although I dont have meridian pains or some other sexual energy build up issue you mention, I do have sadness, which upon closer study is due to a very selfish lifestyle. When people are absorbed in themselves only, its very easy to feel depressed. 

 

 

 The heart center is the physical entry point of our ego, the thing which binds us to this programmed attached life, fear and desire, samasara. Why I say it is the center of the ego, is that is where the first pain (of and fear or pain of a desire being thwarted) actually hits the body, it comes in energetically like a squid around the heart center, and it gets subsequently translated into physical tension of muscles and nerve around the area. The physical tension gets interpreted by your mind as negative feelings, and the mind spins in negative thinking thoughts.

 

The solution I have come up with is just witnessing the heart center, turning my attention to the heart as various physical tensions or feelings tend to waft around. I have tried breathing into it, however it is too deliberate, too strong,  and tends to suppress not dissolve the pain away. So to witness and to not attach interpretations of the pain, not to label it, turning it into a kind of meditation on the heart, is how the solution works. But alas this is only a temporary ointment to a larger problem, which I have mentioned, is selfishness, and the general use of your heart only for fear and greed, instead of higher emotions.

 

In summary, I think this is far from opening the heart center as some have mentioned, but it is closer to discovering the pain of existence of an unenlightened human, and localizing a key source of the pain, a place where subtle energy body interfaces with the physical body.

 

It is true, it may be related to sadness or depression causing this. but it is not about being selfish and ego and could be totally the opposite. Because in my life i always did what others wanted and perceived is right and that i should do, and didn't do what i thought is right for me and what i wanted, liked or loved, and ended up in a place not doing something i enjoy and feeling sad.

so it is not being selfish and not doing what i like and love, lead me into that pain. Ego and selfishness are not always bad, they are a pointers to deeper understanding.

[awaken]

I was wondering if there is a practice other than sleeping that would help in ying? because if i oversleep (or sleep less), i wake up very tired. I m used to sleep 8 hours a day, been years like that.

 

Also, I do practice vipassana or going through the body with focus/intention on each part to feel the sensations there, it is when i feel pains on some places of the body like the area around the heart, but i thought vipassana or such techniques are ying? since they are more passive?

 

is qigong ying or yang? and is there a way to identify whether a practice is ying or yang ?

 

I do have some deep inside big anger that comes out when triggered sometimes, i think it is yang...

 

Thank you very much for your information and help

 

If you practice vipasana, you should know Buddha.

 

Buddha talk about 五蘊，色受想行識

 

In 楞嚴經 and 大般若經， Buddha talk many things about Ying.

 

I don't know what kind of vipasana you learn.

 

But I am sure the teacher didn't tell you the right way.

 

Maybe he just teach the breathing and how to put your mind.

 

But what is dharma should be more important than vipasana.

 

In 四念處，Buddha said 觀身不淨，觀受是苦，觀心無常，觀法無我。

 

So vipasana should not only have 觀身和受 observing body and feeling.

 

Observing mind is the next step.

 

But what is the right way to observe mind?

 

Buddha said 色受想行識

 

What is 行蘊 is the key point.

 

行蘊 is the illusion what we can see in meditation.

 

It looks like dreams.

 

If we don't relax enough, how can we go into these day-dream illusions?

 

This state is not always day dreams.

 

It is the same with 混沌恍惚渺冥 in daoist.

 

But Buddha didn't give a specific view.

 

He said we should not stay in any situations.

 

All kinds of staying is wrong.

 

So you need to find a signal when your heart feel pain.

 

It must have something you don't relax enough.

 

I think 'I' is the answer.

 

You need to forget yourself.

 

Not only your body.

 

All of you need to be forgotten.

 

Nothing is exit, include the feeling of you.

 

 

 

Most of qigong is yang only.

 

 

 

Ying and yang are changing in different situations.

 

So it depends on what we are talking about.

Edited December 4, 2016 by awaken

[Shad282]

If you practice vipasana, you should know Buddha.

 

Buddha talk about 五蘊，色受想行識

 

In 楞嚴經 and 大般若經， Buddha talk many things about Ying.

 

I don't know what kind of vipasana you learn.

 

But I am sure the teacher didn't tell you the right way.

 

Maybe he just teach the breathing and how to put your mind.

 

But what is dharma should be more important than vipasana.

 

In 四念處，Buddha said 觀身不淨，觀受是苦，觀心無常，觀法無我。

 

So vipasana should not only have 觀身和受 observing body and feeling.

 

Observing mind is the next step.

 

But what is the right way to observe mind?

 

Buddha said 色受想行識

 

What is 行蘊 is the key point.

 

行蘊 is the illusion what we can see in meditation.

 

It looks like dreams.

 

If we don't relax enough, how can we go into these day-dream illusions?

 

This state is not always day dreams.

 

It is the same with 混沌恍惚渺冥 in daoist.

 

But Buddha didn't give a specific view.

 

He said we should not stay in any situations.

 

All kinds of staying is wrong.

 

So you need to find a signal when your heart feel pain.

 

It must have something you don't relax enough.

 

I think 'I' is the answer.

 

You need to forget yourself.

 

Not only your body.

 

All of you need to be forgotten.

 

Nothing is exit, include the feeling of you.

 

 

 

Most of qigong is yang only.

 

 

 

Ying and yang are changing in different situations.

 

So it depends on what we are talking about.

 

oh sorry the chinese words, got me lost since i don't know and can't relate them together. 

But i did a vipassana retreat 10 days, that follows the teaching of S. N. Goenka, about vipassana.. and it is been held all over the world, and in prisons and such. 

 

the first stage, is to learn about how to focus on each part of the body and move from the top of the to the tips of the toe and back.. it is said it is the teaching how the buddha taught, and it is the most original and traditional one.

next stage is advanced where you focus on thoughts and such.

 

I have learned to watch my thoughts before going through the body. and how to watch the space between the thoughts, words, and be able to recognize myself as separate than my thoughts and such and i m able to get into mindful state of no thoughts... if i focus enough.

 

but if you can translate the chinese words in order to be able to understand more what you mean, because i end up trying to compare shapes to know if you are talking of the thing.

 

Thank you

[munky]

.

Edited August 23, 2023 by munky

[awaken]

oh sorry the chinese words, got me lost since i don't know and can't relate them together.

But i did a vipassana retreat 10 days, that follows the teaching of S. N. Goenka, about vipassana.. and it is been held all over the world, and in prisons and such.

 

the first stage, is to learn about how to focus on each part of the body and move from the top of the to the tips of the toe and back.. it is said it is the teaching how the buddha taught, and it is the most original and traditional one.

next stage is advanced where you focus on thoughts and such.

 

I have learned to watch my thoughts before going through the body. and how to watch the space between the thoughts, words, and be able to recognize myself as separate than my thoughts and such and i m able to get into mindful state of no thoughts... if i focus enough.

 

but if you can translate the chinese words in order to be able to understand more what you mean, because i end up trying to compare shapes to know if you are talking of the thing.

 

Thank you

If anyone can translate for this friend, I will be thankful.

[Taoist Texts]

If anyone can translate for this friend, I will be thankful.

Dont mention it)

 

If you practice vipasana, you should know Buddha.

 

Buddha talk about 五蘊，色受想行識 (five skandhas /sensory perceptions/, the sensual perception triggers thinking)

 

In 楞(leng)嚴(yán)經(jīng) Śūraṃgama-sūtra and 大般若經 Mahāprajñāpāramitā Sūtra， Buddha talk many things about Ying.

 

I don't know what kind of vipasana you learn.

 

But I am sure the teacher didn't tell you the right way.

 

Maybe he just teach the breathing and how to put your mind.

 

But what is dharma should be more important than vipasana.

 

In 四念處 satipaṭṭhāna，Buddha said 觀身不淨，觀受是苦，觀心無常，觀法無我。(See that the body is impure, the perception is suffering, the heart is impermanent, the dharma is self-less).

 

So vipasana should not only have 觀身和受 (observing body and feelings).

 

Observing mind is the next step.

 

But what is the right way to observe mind?

 

Buddha said 色受想行識 (the sensual perception triggers thinking)

 

What is 行蘊 saṃskāra is the key point.

 

行蘊 saṃskāra is the illusion what we can see in meditation.

 

It looks like dreams.

 

If we don't relax enough, how can we go into these day-dream illusions?

 

This state is not always day dreams.

 

It is the same with 混沌恍惚渺冥 vague and imperceptible  in daoist.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Taoist Texts

[Shad282]

Dont mention it)

 

If you practice vipasana, you should know Buddha.

 

Buddha talk about 五蘊，色受想行識 (five skandhas /sensory perceptions/, the sensual perception triggers thinking)

 

In 楞(leng)嚴(yán)經(jīng) Śūraṃgama-sūtra and 大般若經 Mahāprajñāpāramitā Sūtra， Buddha talk many things about Ying.

 

I don't know what kind of vipasana you learn.

 

But I am sure the teacher didn't tell you the right way.

 

Maybe he just teach the breathing and how to put your mind.

 

But what is dharma should be more important than vipasana.

 

In 四念處 satipaṭṭhāna，Buddha said 觀身不淨，觀受是苦，觀心無常，觀法無我。(See that the body is impure, the perception is suffering, the heart is impermanent, the dharma is self-less).

 

So vipasana should not only have 觀身和受 (observing body and feelings).

 

Observing mind is the next step.

 

But what is the right way to observe mind?

 

Buddha said 色受想行識 (the sensual perception triggers thinking)

 

What is 行蘊 saṃskāra is the key point.

 

行蘊 saṃskāra is the illusion what we can see in meditation.

 

It looks like dreams.

 

If we don't relax enough, how can we go into these day-dream illusions?

 

This state is not always day dreams.

 

It is the same with 混沌恍惚渺冥 vague and imperceptible  in daoist.

 

If anyone can translate for this friend, I will be thankful.

Thank you, yes i learned about sankharas and such and yes the teacher taught us about that... but said nothing about ying and yang or that energy exist.

 

but i did struggle in form of using meditation, spirituality and what buddha taught as an escapism into the meditation peace world, until i get triggered to go back into the "dark" side, reality.

 

 

Also, according to some analyses, photos in the links:

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwjYDGIA089TS1Y5VkR4M1R4bDQ

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwjYDGIA089TLVJKdldWcFFlelk

 

I do have excess Yang energy, like you said, bravo!

[z00se]

Sometimes you can spend hours meditating and still be struggling not really knowing what is going on, when you can go to a good bodyworker and they can fix you up in half an hr for $60 then you can be done and spend time enjoying the balance than the battle to balance. Depends if your enjoying the battle or not.

[Shad282]

Sometimes you can spend hours meditating and still be struggling not really knowing what is going on, when you can go to a good bodyworker and they can fix you up in half an hr for $60 then you can be done and spend time enjoying the balance than the battle to balance. Depends if your enjoying the battle or not.

it is not about the money, i want to learn how to be able to "fix" my own body.... you know, to gain that knowledge and art and own it and learn its depth since there is a reason for it to exist.

[Everything]

it is not about the money, i want to learn how to be able to "fix" my own body.... you know, to gain that knowledge and art and own it and learn its depth since there is a reason for it to exist.

Your body knows how to be healthy.

You just feel good and don't hold on to anything that is painful in anyway.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Everything

[z00se]

Shad, but if you are struggling with it, the bodyworker is very experienced and knows how to balance you. Then you know what it feels like to be balanced and where you hold your tension, then you can learn to do it on your own from these new feelings.

 

It can be a shortcut to the place you want to get to. I found it helpful myself, to improve my own qigong. Teachers are everywhere, and if the mind is mirrored in the body then a skilled bodyworker is as good a teacher as a qigong master. Check out Bowen therapy or an osteopath, both of those would be the most help from a qigong perspective i believe.

[Everything]

Shad, but if you are struggling with it, the bodyworker is very experienced and knows how to balance you. Then you know what it feels like to be balanced and where you hold your tension, then you can learn to do it on your own from these new feelings.

 

It can be a shortcut to the place you want to get to. I found it helpful myself, to improve my own qigong. Teachers are everywhere, and if the mind is mirrored in the body then a skilled bodyworker is as good a teacher as a qigong master. Check out Bowen therapy or an osteopath, both of those would be the most help from a qigong perspective i believe.

Sounds cool.

[Brian]

Well you wrote a lot, but to be honest, it is a lot, but for me, i don't believe in negative effect of focus and intention. it is something natural. it is introspection, and won't actually kill you just pointing your mind on a specific place. Also, i studied vipassana, in a vipassana retreat and it is for free and 2 teachers and assistant there and everything was for free the sleep+food all... so wasn't commercial plus i used to practice it without actually knowing about it.

 

Also, i don't believe in the negative or bad entities, energy, or magic and negative result of energy or focus. believing in such stuff is like add imagination and mind thoughts into the concept of chi and energy because:

 

A fish won't choke on water.

As an aside, fish do drown.

[Shad282]

An update to the thread: 

Those pains i used to feel around the heart/ on chest, actually after a long focus and scanning, became red itchy patches and acting like eczema. It seems that pain is materializing as a skin issue? (i do have eczema but on face)

 

yesterday, a pain arose on the area at the bottom area of the heart, low area and it was painful, and later on the skin became itchy and red. that pain was linked to the stomach (sacral chakra i guess).

Edited December 26, 2016 by Shad282

[C T]

An update to the thread: 

 

Those pains i used to feel around the heart/ on chest, actually after a long focus and scanning, became red itchy patches and acting like eczema. It seems that pain is materializing as a skin issue? (i do have eczema but on face)

 

yesterday, a pain arose on the area at the bottom area of the heart, low area and it was painful, and later on the skin became itchy and red. that pain was linked to the stomach (sacral chakra i guess).

better rule out shingles!

[Shad282]

better rule out shingles!

what do you mean ?  I m dying ! my pains are materializing physically!

 

Goodbye current world!

 

see you soon !