Karl Posted November 6, 2016 I am a History graduate who did my dissertation on the US and UK relations after the war That article is full of speculation and short of evidence, and while the US may have wanted a unified Europe as a strategic interest during the Cold War that doesn't mean that the EU an American project, if it had that much control and influence it wouldn't have such difficulty passing its trade agreements with the EU today. While Israel was only founded in 1948, it is hard to see that it had such influence and power so quickly that it could suddenly shape the entire European continent around its wishes. Its not that hard to believe the official story, that people who had first hand witnessed the utter devastation of the World Wars wanted to find a way for it to never happen again, far more likely than some sort of Zionist conspiracy. Its true that the US tried to bleed the UK dry after the war but that also changed with the rise of the Cold War as it was in American interests that what was left of the British Empire was strong. While I don't believe in the "special relationship" you will find that is was almost always British lawyers, politicians and policy makers who would lobby on behalf of the Americans and their business inside the EU, and Britain who does much of the spying on the European leaders and countries on behalf of the Americans. Why do you think Obama wanted us to stay so much? Israel not until later, but Jewish financiers much earlier. It's a project, the USA doesn't own the EU nor the countries in it. This is about seeking maximum global influence for the USA and hence domination. I didn't say it was a Zionist conspiracy, but it wasn't immune from Jewish influence and later Israeli influence. When you did your dissertation did you discover the changes in financial economic structure in each country ? It's the economics which are crucial to getting an understanding of the interplay. The old game of soaking up countries producing raw materials in exchange for goods and food was pretty much over by the First World War. Industrialisation had pretty much flourished everywhere. I would love to get into this with you, but it's more of a side interest for me and I don't have the accurate information at my fingertips as I do with philosophy and economics. It's fascinating though to see how these forces combine to create history though. Let's see if I'm right. That article 50 will be triggered, but that there are several forces pulling at the UK which will see us, more half out than half in and some reformation of the EU as it stands. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Karl Posted November 6, 2016 ah yes, people bicker and argue, and leave the internationalists out of the whole conversation, heh. sovereign unto themselves and beholden to no nation, with hooks in a great many via central banks, american and european used as their own respective tools for the job. isreal may have been created only in 1948, but they were discussing how to get it accomplished as early as the 1870s, and likely for quite some time before that. doesnt quite make logical sense to dismiss nations in such ways and act as if they are completely sovereign an beholden to no one and no pocketbook. humans have *never* stopped trying to take over the world. Thats pretty much how it went. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted November 7, 2016 Just for information - in case anyone is interested in facts: 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Karl Posted November 7, 2016 Just for information - in case anyone is interested in facts: Clear enough for me. However, I must return to my previous argument that the Government in 1976 used Royal prerogative to get through the European act with total contempt for law, or parliamentary process. All referendums are instruments of tyranny and shouldn't be considered statutory instruments. The problem here is that the law has been invoked on this occasion, but used in advisedly in 1976 and on treaties after that. The fault has been compounded by the buffoon Cameron who had no truck with proper procedure and offered a referendum that he thought would be easily won by the remainers. So, now we are left with the beginnings of a constitutional crisis-the fuckwits. However, if parliament and judges viewed this in the same light as the previous undisclosures, then it would accept the will of the majority as sovereign. It's a pretty pickle and if the will of the people is sidelined I can tell you that it would have been far better to have accepted those results. It will release a wave of anger that will not easily be quelled. The only way to do this now is to call an election under the precise terms of exit from the EU which is not to accept the judgement or control of the ECJ over British law. This is where the previous agreements were smuggled in by subterfuge. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miffymog Posted November 9, 2016 O.K. So how does this effect Brexit? And then the EU? My only understanding is that in terms of trade deals, he wasn't going to push back an American/British trade deal. NATO is not so important to him. Does it weaken the EU slightly? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Karl Posted November 9, 2016 O.K. So how does this effect Brexit? And then the EU? My only understanding is that in terms of trade deals, he wasn't going to push back an American/British trade deal. NATO is not so important to him. Does it weaken the EU slightly? It's only one man, the republicans are still the establishment personified. However, it's undeniable that it shines a more positive light on Brexit. No more 'back of the Q' Obamarisms. Trump is far more welcoming of Brexit as a parallel to his win. The deplorables might now get the respect we should have had before Brexit and realise that this is a movement that won't be stopped by elites using the judiciary to try and water down Brexit. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miffymog Posted November 9, 2016 Yep - there'll be no immediate changes, and any will be slow coming. I guess its a greater attitudinal movement among the people and how this may influence the various elections coming up in Europe. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Karl Posted November 9, 2016 Yep - there'll be no immediate changes, and any will be slow coming. I guess its a greater attitudinal movement among the people and how this may influence the various elections coming up in Europe. Imagine Marine LePen for France happening ! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheWhiteRabbit Posted November 9, 2016 Yep - there'll be no immediate changes, and any will be slow coming. I guess its a greater attitudinal movement among the people and how this may influence the various elections coming up in Europe. Uk was just waiting to see if the United States followed suit, which it did. So, now that Trump will be president, you will soon hear of Brexit actually happening. Funny how these things work. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miffymog Posted November 9, 2016 Trump elected Hollande shows some trepidation Merkel shows some trepidation May sidesteps all questions about some the more controversial comments Trump made during the campaign and declares how much we're looking forward to working with him. We've now got a friend who also likes to protect their own national identity, this gives me a little bit of relief. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miffymog Posted November 13, 2016 Former air force commander wins Bulgaria presidential election - exit polls http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bulgaria-election-idUKKBN13801S?il=0 More candidates winning off the back of strong anti-immigration stances 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blackstar212 Posted November 15, 2016 http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/there-is-no-plan-for-brexit-leaked-memo-says/ar-AAkiVZA?li=BBnbcA1 What I expected. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Karl Posted November 15, 2016 http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/there-is-no-plan-for-brexit-leaked-memo-says/ar-AAkiVZA?li=BBnbcA1 What I expected. Written by Deloitte and Douche :-) you know them don't you ? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miffymog Posted November 15, 2016 http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/there-is-no-plan-for-brexit-leaked-memo-says/ar-AAkiVZA?li=BBnbcA1 What I expected. Of course there's no plan. The deal we get completely depends on the stability of the EU when the deals are made. There are lots of very important elections coming up in Europe over the next year which could literally cripple the whole thing. In the event of the EU collapsing over the next year, which is a possibility, no deal will even need to be made. 2017 will be a very interesting year indeed. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miffymog Posted November 15, 2016 (edited) Up-and-coming European elections... Italy December 2016 Austria December 2016 Netherlands March 2017 Serbia May 2017 France May 2017 Norway September 2017 Germany Sep 2017 If they all go the way of Brexit/Trump, quite simply, that would be the end of the EU. Edited November 15, 2016 by Miffymog 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Karl Posted November 15, 2016 Up-and-coming European elections... Italy December 2016 Austria December 2016 Netherlands March 15th 2017 Serbia May 2017 France May 2017 Norway September 2017 Germany Sep 2017 If they all go the way of Brexit/Trump, quite simply, that would be the end of the EU. That would be fantastic as we don't seem to be getting very far with our leaving. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blackstar212 Posted November 15, 2016 Written by Deloitte and Douche :-) you know them don't you ? No, but I do know Dewey, Cheatum and Howe attorneys at law. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blackstar212 Posted November 15, 2016 http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/683518/EU-collapse-Brexit-EU-referendum-European-Union-George-Soros-investors Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miffymog Posted November 15, 2016 http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/683518/EU-collapse-Brexit-EU-referendum-European-Union-George-Soros-investors For me, I liked some of the ideas behind a nice large trading block. The EU could even hold American companies like Apple to account on terms of tax dodging in Ireland. This is something that no one EU country could ever dream of and is no bad thing. But, a single currency has just not worked. Each country needs to be able to value its currency independently so they can naturally devalue if required. (There are other issues with the EU too) Like Soros says, there only seems to be a trend to it coming to an end. So, will it just muddle through or completely finish. Hmmmm ... cant tell yet, the out comes of these European elections will shed more light on it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miffymog Posted November 27, 2016 Quitaly – or, Quit Italy. This is when Italy quits the single currency due to disagreeing with the financial measures imposed on it by the European Central Bank (or, otherwise know as, Germany). Very important constitutional election coming up in Italy next Sunday. Although it does not signify much in itself, if it goes in a particular direction, it will give a very large momentum to the politicians in Italy who would like to move away from the EU. And, unlike Trump and Brexit, the pollsters are actually predicting a win for the anti-EU politicians. From a UK position, there are a lot of elections like this coming up around Europe over the next year which could completely change the EU and, therefore, our relationship with it. After the Second World War, greater and greater integration between EU countries only seemed a good thing. But, has it gone to far and are we now seeing a natural re-balancing? In the end, everything will be fine as everyone will just go one living their lives as before, however, there are a lot of interesting times coming up ... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted November 28, 2016 A good example of the EU sytems working to block harmful clauses on CETA was Wallonia's ability to intervene. (The article was written by Paul Magnette, President of Wallonia.) www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/14/wallonia-ceta-ttip-eu-trade-belgium 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dust Posted November 28, 2016 We've now got a friend who also likes to protect their own national identity, this gives me a little bit of relief. What is your "national identity"? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miffymog Posted November 28, 2016 A good example of the EU sytems working to block harmful clauses on CETA was Wallonia's ability to intervene. (The article was written by Paul Magnette, President of Wallonia.) www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/14/wallonia-ceta-ttip-eu-trade-belgium Stuff like this is, in many ways, a good thing. A strong trading block comprising of countries which have similar values has many benefits. Standing together, a group of 700 million people gives EU citizens some protection/strength against other, very large trading partners. But, for me, it went too far. Does it require a single currency? Does it require a European Court of Justice that over rides national courts? Does it require open boarders? I really can see the appeal of the EU, but, in my mind, you can have too much integration - and that was the direction it was going in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted November 29, 2016 3rd June 2016: Dear Britain, if you stay in the EU, you will ruin our lives. Here is why 25th November 2016: Boris Johnson is a clown who has united the EU against Britain Both articles by Jean Quatremer: Je couvre l'actualité européenne pour Libération depuis septembre 1990, d'abord comme responsable du défunt cahier « Europe » -un supplément hebdomadaire de huit pages consacré à la construction communautaire- puis comme correspondant auprès de l'Union européenne.Avant cela, je me suis occupé, au sein du service société du même journal, des questions d'immigration mais aussi, plus largement, de tout ce qui touchait, de près ou de loin, au droit. J'ai écrit mes premiers papiers pour Libé en 1984.Me suivre sur Twitter ou sur Facebook Jean Quatremer Source: bruxelles.blogs.liberation.fr More of his insightful and entertaining viewpoint can be found at Libération - Coulisses de Bruxelles e.g. Trump: l'UE sonnée Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted December 2, 2016 Brexit is bigger than any single party – Richmond Park has taught us that This volcanic byelection is a taste of how Brexit threatens to overturn all old certainties and render Labour increasingly irrelevant in post-referendum Britain Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
