(Yoga as in UNION, not as in asanas) Thought is inherently corrupt and divisive (Kristnamurti, Alan Watts), but Concentration is the key to enlightenm

[soaren]

I don't quite understand how these two paradigms can be reconciled.

 

Also, if you have read into the power of positive intention and concentration, I would seem that "turning off the thinking process" would actually be counter-productive to (worldly) "success".

(I guess I want a bit of both?)

 

But who seriously has time to turn off thought? To live as a monk in this reality - let's be honest, is that seriously possible in this age? Because I don't see many of those types being successful in life - having a family etc (I don't want to become a recluse).

 

I'm reaching a point where my "true" personality is coming out, in the sense that it is not forced - and it's wonderful. I actually was trying to hard, struggling, to become this person from action, and I'm finding more and more that just BEING is literally much more productive than actually trying to be... It's just a matter of balancing the scales. (I don't know if that helps you understand the point I am at right now, I know there is some sort of "path of pattern" that everyone goes through on the path of enlightenment, but I have never found a written out step by step list of the way that the mind develops in this spirtual sense from materialism to "atman thinking").

Edited November 4, 2016 by soaren

[redcairo]

Interesting!

 

I don't think I have an answer, but I have a couple thoughts. (Ouch! Oops! I thought! LOL)

 

Thought is inherently corrupt

 

To a great degree (perhaps entirely) our thoughts our bounded by our belief systems, which are, short of already being enlightened, inaccurate at best, and a big mess at worst. So perhaps it is technically true that all thought is imperfect -- corrupted -- fundamentally.

 

Thought is inherently ... divisive

 

Sometimes when I have had a really powerful internal experience, and I am in the aftermath of it, and gradually pondering it, I will be told to stop thinking so much about it, and I can "feel" the "why" -- because the very act of "thinking about it" is analytical, which is, by its nature, "separate." It forces a "me vs. the other thing" mentality. I have often had difficulty in some experiences because if I don't kind of turn off my brain, the process of "thinking ABOUT it" will separate me from the "living it" and actually interfere with the experience. So perhaps it is technically true that all thought is inherently divisive, at least in that way.0

 

but Concentration is the key to enlightenment

 

An author I like often said that the NOW (or the "present" as eastern folks might say) is "the point of power." And that whatever we "focus upon" is what our power pours into. ("You get what you concentrate upon. There is no other main rule.")

 

There are probably slightly different ways to use and interpret each of those words. Most words especially in english have some problematic translations. For example, 'thoughtless' is not the same as 'not holding opinion' rather in the same way that "childish" is not "childlike."

 

BEING is literally much more productive than actually trying to be

 

That's awesome. I think that is basically the "living" vs. "thinking about living" thing.

 

RC

Edited November 5, 2016 by redcairo

[dust]

My understanding (such as it is):

 

We have a problem when 'thought' and 'thinker' are separate. When the thinker thinks of itself as separate from the thoughts, or the thoughts think of themselves as separate from the thinker. Thought and thinker are the same, and the perceived division can be a source of anxiety.

 

The division is affirmed in our language frequently. We speak of ourselves in pieces: my body, my brain, my thoughts, my self. As if they belong to us but are not actually us. We speak of ourselves as drivers; I hear it all the time: You have a body, you must take care of it; You are in a body, you must make use of it. No, we are bodies, and we must take care of ourselves; we are a body, we must make use of ourself. When "my body" ceases, I cease.

 

At the same time, we must recognize consciousness. The thought/thinker is something that has experience. There is something that it is like to be you. You and your experience are, again, one and the same, inseparable. And experience is constantly changing. You, as a physical body and a thinker and an experience/r, are constantly changing. There is no constant you.

 

What this all comes down to is that self is an illusion. There is no thinker in addition to the thoughts, no experiencer in addition to the experience, and no permanence or constancy to any of it.

 

The goal, then, could be to reconcile these divisions. Rather than a problem between "thought is corrupt" and "concentration is the key", the problem is thinking that "thought is separate". Recognize that you are thought, thinker, experience, experiencer, body, mind, vehicle, driver, passenger. You do not have control over your experience, and yet you are not simply a leaf in the wind. When you understand this, you realize that you do not need to try to "be yourself" or to "be better" or to force your personality out. You realize that you are your personality.

Edited November 6, 2016 by dust

[silent thunder]

My process no longer values 'trying' to do things.

I value being.

 

To me TRY is an acronym that stands for 'To Resist Yourself'. 

Trying introduces energy to a process that isn't required or helpful. 

 

Just do.  Wu Wei. 

 

As you said... pure being.  Effortless authenticity of self.  No effort required to just be that which you already are...

 

Tension, effort, are the natural result of the mental process of wishing things were not as they are...

 

Just be. 

[dwai]

 

I don't quite understand how these two paradigms can be reconciled.

 

Also, if you have read into the power of positive intention and concentration, I would seem that "turning off the thinking process" would actually be counter-productive to (worldly) "success".

 

(I guess I want a bit of both?)

 

But who seriously has time to turn off thought? To live as a monk in this reality - let's be honest, is that seriously possible in this age? Because I don't see many of those types being successful in life - having a family etc (I don't want to become a recluse).

 

I'm reaching a point where my "true" personality is coming out, in the sense that it is not forced - and it's wonderful. I actually was trying to hard, struggling, to become this person from action, and I'm finding more and more that just BEING is literally much more productive than actually trying to be... It's just a matter of balancing the scales. (I don't know if that helps you understand the point I am at right now, I know there is some sort of "path of pattern" that everyone goes through on the path of enlightenment, but I have never found a written out step by step list of the way that the mind develops in this spirtual sense from materialism to "atman thinking").

The mind is just a tool. Use it to understand intellectually what "enlightenment" entails. Then drop it and just be.

 

For some, the intellectual step is required to intuitively come to the nondual understanding. But then the Mind becomes a hurdle, because the mind divides into observer and observed...subject and object. To drop the mind, it needs to be turned back onto the witness (subject). When the mind tries to observe the subject, it becomes empty of objects, since the subject is empty of objects.

 

The practice is then the mind being constantly merged with the subject/witness. Eventually the mind just stops to move - it becomes still. Then all divisions of this and that, self and other, good and bad, all duality loses its "reality" - rendering the Self free from the prison of the mind.

[CloudHands]

 It's just a matter of balancing the scales.

 

It matters. As long as you have to do something :

 

Direction, Move, Balance.

 

And sometimes you get pushed... Ahahah

[CloudHands]

Or

 

Eye, Foot, Waist, Hand...

[doc benway]

 

I don't quite understand how these two paradigms can be reconciled.

 

Also, if you have read into the power of positive intention and concentration, I would seem that "turning off the thinking process" would actually be counter-productive to (worldly) "success".

 

(I guess I want a bit of both?)

 

But who seriously has time to turn off thought? To live as a monk in this reality - let's be honest, is that seriously possible in this age? Because I don't see many of those types being successful in life - having a family etc (I don't want to become a recluse).

 

I'm reaching a point where my "true" personality is coming out, in the sense that it is not forced - and it's wonderful. I actually was trying to hard, struggling, to become this person from action, and I'm finding more and more that just BEING is literally much more productive than actually trying to be... It's just a matter of balancing the scales. (I don't know if that helps you understand the point I am at right now, I know there is some sort of "path of pattern" that everyone goes through on the path of enlightenment, but I have never found a written out step by step list of the way that the mind develops in this spirtual sense from materialism to "atman thinking").

 

 

It is not so much a problem that thought is inherently divisive and tends towards corruption.

It is our identification with thought that is the problem.

Thought is a very useful tool but identifying with it leads to confusion.

 

Meditation is not a process of turning off thought, it is the freedom to allow thoughts to come, be as they are, and go...

Certainly there are mental exercises designed to "turn off thought" but they simply serve the purpose of allowing us to cultivate a degree of control over attention (concentration) and allow us to experience the world as it is (just being) without the intervention of the illusory 'me' and its incessant inner ramblings. 

 

We will never be free of thought for more than a few moments or a few hours at a time.

Once we are free of the identification with the inner voice, there is no need to try.

[liminal_luke]

My process no longer values 'trying' to do things.

I value being.

 

To me TRY is an acronym that stands for 'To Resist Yourself'. 

Trying introduces energy to a process that isn't required or helpful. 

 

Just do.  Wu Wei. 

 

As you said... pure being.  Effortless authenticity of self.  No effort required to just be that which you already are...

 

Tension, effort, are the natural result of the mental process of wishing things were not as they are...

 

Just be. 

 

 

I keep trying to Just Be and, no matter how much effort I exert, it`s still not effortless.    Oh well.  Practice makes...well, I have no idea what it makes actually.  ​

[CloudHands]

I keep trying to Just Be and, no matter how much effort I exert, it`s still not effortless.    Oh well.  Practice makes...well, I have no idea what it makes actually.  ​

 

Maybe time for drastic measures... ?

[CloudHands]

Much love for you Liminal !

[roger]

Soaren,

 

Thoughts, like any other choice, are either born of love, or fear.

 

It may be that in a certain situation, the loving choice would be to not think, to be mentally quiet.

 

Otherwise thoughts should be born of love, which could take many different forms, but should give you peace and not create inner conflict or suffering.

 

Often people have patterns of thought where they continually think the same things over and over. That's really an escape and arises out of fear. If you find yourself obsessing or frequently replaying the same things, respond to it with loving thoughts, or by quieting your mind- whichever gives you peace.