Mair 3:5

[Marblehead]

When Old Longears {{Intended as a reference to Lao Tzu (Old Master), the reputed author of the Tao Te Ching.}} died, Idle Intruder {{Ch'in Yi, probably a fictional character, the meaning of whose name is not entirely clear.}} went to mourn over him.  He wailed three times and left.

"Weren't you a friend of the master?" a disciple asked him.

 

"Yes."

 

"Well, is it proper to mourn him like this?"

 

"Yes.  At first, I used to think of him as a man, but now I no longer do.  Just now when I went in to mourn him, there were old people crying over him as though they were crying for one of their own sons.  There were youngsters crying over him as though they were crying for their own mother.  Among those whom he had brought together, surely there were some who wished not to speak but spoke anyway, who wished not to cry but cried anyway.  This is to flee from nature while redoubling human emotion, thus forgetting what we have received from nature.  This was what the ancients called 'the punishment of fleeing from nature.'  By chance the master's coming was timely, and by chance his going was favorable.  One who is situated in timeliness and who dwells in favorableness cannot be affected by joy or sorrow.  This is what the ancients called 'the emancipation of the gods.'"

[Taoist Texts]

 

  'the punishment of fleeing from nature.'   

 

 

what punishment?

 

'the emancipation of the gods.'"

 

 

Huh?

[dawei]

This was what the ancients called 'the punishment of fleeing from nature.' 

 

This is what the ancients called 'the emancipation of the gods.'"

 

what punishment?

 

Huh?

 

Punishment seems wrong... more like the concealing of their nature (going against or revealing nature or heaven)

 

On second one, seems to depend on the understanding of 縣 as Xian (prefecture) or Xuan (to hang).

 

As prefecture, that seems to deviate from the entire section with a completely new analogy; might expect that more from Hanfeizi.  

 

The oddity to me is the use of Di (Emperor) whereas earlier was Tian (Heaven).   While both can mean 'god', there must be a reason he uses two different words and it might have something to do with earthly vs heavenly issues.

 

The latter use seems what most are using but more like a release or loosening (emancipation).   I'm not quite seeing this angle as most translate.

[Marblehead]

what punishment?

 

Huh?

 

Yeah, punishment is, imo, not the proper word,  Perhaps "result"?

 

It surprised me that Lin Yutang also used the word "god" but then Watson did not even translate the character.

 

Perhaps the entire last sentence is a later addition.  I really don't see its usefulness.

Edited November 7, 2016 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

Punishment seems wrong... more like the concealing of their nature (going against or revealing nature or heaven)

 

Yes.  As mentioned above, I think "result" would be a better word.  Punishment requires a punisher.

 

On second one, seems to depend on the understanding of 縣 as Xian (prefecture) or Xuan (to hang).

 

As prefecture, that seems to deviate from the entire section with a completely new analogy; might expect that more from Hanfeizi.  

 

The oddity to me is the use of Di (Emperor) whereas earlier was Tian (Heaven).   While both can mean 'god', there must be a reason he uses two different words and it might have something to do with earthly vs heavenly issues.

 

The latter use seems what most are using but more like a release or loosening (emancipation).   I'm not quite seeing this angle as most translate.

 

I feel more comfortable without the last sentence being there.

 

 

[Stosh]

Maybe , Tribulation , may fit better than 'punishment'. 

[Stosh]

That last sentence Does ,not seem to fit, to me either. It seems like a personal additional summation .

The sentiment, though can fit, I take it that the whole communication is that Lao ,having lived and taught equinanimity , and peace regarding acceptance,,,, was Ok with his own passing. His student, Chin ,while he loved the master, had learned the same, and so, didnt react as many did.

Its like saying he , Lao,had gone to an even greater everlasting peace, the peace, that gods had, no needs ,no sorrows etc. Chin yi still has a soul that can love and feel deeply, he just moves on to accept ,rather than dwell in misery.

I feel this passage is intended to enhance the precision of Laos message, that being human , we are still subject to sorrows, a ramification , of ones joys and loves, and we strive towards a perfection of peace thats beyond us as mortals.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Okay.  Acceptable.  But I would also add that Ch'in Yi also understood the processes of nature in that all living things will one day die.  The natural passing of Lao Tzu was a given for Ch'in Yi.

 

You know, one of those "Oh well" moments.

[Stosh]

Okay.  Acceptable.  But I would also add that Ch'in Yi also understood the processes of nature in that all living things will one day die.  The natural passing of Lao Tzu was a given for Ch'in Yi.

 

You know, one of those "Oh well" moments.

...maybe.

I'd like to know if the proper wailing procedure attributed specific meaning to a certain number of wails, which might shed light on whether Chin yi was just paying respects , or actually touched about the death,though perhaps having heard about it a long time in advance so as to arrive at the place,... OR perhaps Mr Chin was from a rival 'school' and looked like an idle intruder. Was it plausible that he really was just hanging around a funeral of a friend?

I may indeed be reading a closer relationship between the two than existed .. I dont know if he truly was an idle intruder , an acquaintance , or just looked like one to the other guests. When this sort of uncertainty is presented I usually assume that either is plausible to the author , and the story should be seen the same regardless .. that the mastery of Laos teaching would indeed make it indistinguishable if the person was close to the deceased or not. ( the dearest of friends seeming the most casual of acquaintances)

My personal take is that they were very very close. 

Edited November 8, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

I will hold to your last sentence.

 

It is my understanding that it was customary for mourning to take a long time.  Days upon end.  But a Taoist wouldn't get involved in such thing, I think.

 

To recognize the passing is all that really matters, isn't it?  The dead person can no longer hear us.

[Stosh]

I will hold to your last sentence.

 

It is my understanding that it was customary for mourning to take a long time.  Days upon end.  But a Taoist wouldn't get involved in such thing, I think.

 

To recognize the passing is all that really matters, isn't it?  The dead person can no longer hear us.

Yes , I'm now thinking , you're right , the point of the thing is the relationship of the living. I stand corrected. 

The first question one really would have is who the heck is this person? not his behavior, though he stands out for it. And his name if its Possibly 'Idle Intruder' points at it.  

Edited November 8, 2016 by Stosh

[dawei]

I'm ok with the last line as it is a formulated used in the same section already (This was what the ancients called).   So if done once, I don't have an issue with it done twice.  When things are done twice, I often look to see whether there is some comparison/contrast going on that I have not looked deeper at yet.   But I now see one translation that did follow my questioning of "Di" to mean something earthly:

 

http://www.daoisopen.com/ZZ3.html

 

When it was appropriate for him to come, the Master took that opportunity. When it was appropriate for him to leave, the Master submitted. By peacefully accepting the opportunity and later comfortably submitting, sorrow and happiness don't enter the picture.  In ancient times this was called dismissing the ruler from his earthly responsibilities."

 

 

I will admit I don't like Mair's translation and searching around, I don't like anyone's but ironically Legge's... I tend to not really like Legge that much but here I think he might have the spirit of the meaning. 

 

Legge:  http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/nourishing-the-lord-of-life

 

When Lao Dan died, Qin Shi went to condole (with his son), but after crying out three times, he came out. The disciples said to him, 'Were you not a friend of the Master?' 'I was,' he replied, and they said, 'Is it proper then to offer your condolences merely as you have done?' He said, 'It is. At first I thought he was the man of men, and now I do not think so. When I entered a little ago and expressed my condolences, there were the old men wailing as if they had lost a son, and the young men wailing as if they had lost their mother. In his attracting and uniting them to himself in such a way there must have been that which made them involuntarily express their words (of condolence), and involuntarily wail, as they were doing. And this was a hiding from himself of his Heaven (-nature), and an excessive indulgence of his (human) feelings; a forgetting of what he had received (in being born); what the ancients called the punishment due to neglecting the Heaven (-nature). When the Master came, it was at the proper time; when he went away, it was the simple sequence (of his coming). Quiet acquiescence in what happens at its proper time, and quietly submitting (to its ceasing) afford no occasion for grief or for joy. The ancients described (death) as the loosening of the cord on which God suspended (the life).

 

The underline is my similar take on the passage, which goes summarily as follows:

 

Laozi's death (and ergo, life) had an effect on people in that it bubbled up a natural expression over and against their indulgence of their own feelings and desires.  He produced in them a great opening (release of human issues) and this is to return to 'what he had received (in being born)'.     His coming and going were in their allotted time and neither grief nor joy contribute to the life or death.

 

His two translates of "This was what the ancients called", I don't really agree with.

[Stosh]

I'm ok with the last line as it is a formulated used in the same section already (This was what the ancients called).   So if done once, I don't have an issue with it done twice.  When things are done twice, I often look to see whether there is some comparison/contrast going on that I have not looked deeper at yet.   But I now see one translation that did follow my questioning of "Di" to mean something earthly:

 

http://www.daoisopen.com/ZZ3.html

 

When it was appropriate for him to come, the Master took that opportunity. When it was appropriate for him to leave, the Master submitted. By peacefully accepting the opportunity and later comfortably submitting, sorrow and happiness don't enter the picture.  In ancient times this was called dismissing the ruler from his earthly responsibilities."

 

 

I will admit I don't like Mair's translation and searching around, I don't like anyone's but ironically Legge's... I tend to not really like Legge that much but here I think he might have the spirit of the meaning. 

 

Legge:  http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/nourishing-the-lord-of-life

 

When Lao Dan died, Qin Shi went to condole (with his son), but after crying out three times, he came out. The disciples said to him, 'Were you not a friend of the Master?' 'I was,' he replied, and they said, 'Is it proper then to offer your condolences merely as you have done?' He said, 'It is. At first I thought he was the man of men, and now I do not think so. When I entered a little ago and expressed my condolences, there were the old men wailing as if they had lost a son, and the young men wailing as if they had lost their mother. In his attracting and uniting them to himself in such a way there must have been that which made them involuntarily express their words (of condolence), and involuntarily wail, as they were doing. And this was a hiding from himself of his Heaven (-nature), and an excessive indulgence of his (human) feelings; a forgetting of what he had received (in being born); what the ancients called the punishment due to neglecting the Heaven (-nature). When the Master came, it was at the proper time; when he went away, it was the simple sequence (of his coming). Quiet acquiescence in what happens at its proper time, and quietly submitting (to its ceasing) afford no occasion for grief or for joy. The ancients described (death) as the loosening of the cord on which God suspended (the life).

 

The underline is my similar take on the passage, which goes summarily as follows:

 

Laozi's death (and ergo, life) had an effect on people in that it bubbled up a natural expression over and against their indulgence of their own feelings and desires.  He produced in them a great opening (release of human issues) and this is to return to 'what he had received (in being born)'.     His coming and going were in their allotted time and neither grief nor joy contribute to the life or death.

 

His two translates of "This was what the ancients called", I don't really agree with.

Whats the "man of men" thing?

 

I dont 'get' the loosening of the cord imagery at all. Can you explain how that metaphor fits life? 

 

If I may say ,, As you dislike Mair's, I feel similarly about Legge's , I hate it ,(though there is a common issue about the appropriate approach to the loss ,against excessive grieving being in tune with Lao's philosophy). 

To be specific about my disagreement with Legge , If Lao was so beloved , and inspired such emotion,as one is born with naturally ,,, it stands in contrast to discounting grief or joy , as having value. To me it doesn't make for a cohesive understanding of the philosophic point, , nor does the cord thing seem to be pertinent. Mair's version is cohesive , it all fits together , and most importantly ! it coincides with what I feel the Daoist teachings mean.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Stosh

[dawei]

Whats the "man of men" thing?

 

I dont 'get' the loosening of the cord imagery at all. Can you explain how that metaphor fits life? 

 

Man of Men:   At least Mair is similar with "Yes.  At first, I used to think of him as a man, but now I no longer do"

 

My take is that this 'friend' viewed Lao Dan first and foremost as a [great] man; a man of men... but came to see something much deeper... the effect he had on people.   Like being in a spiritual person's presence, you might find yourself suddenly crying (sorrow or joy) without explanation...  In this case, his death triggered it in people.

 

Loosening:  Mair calls this emancipation, as does Lin Yutang; Burton calls this 'being freed'.

 

To me, loosening fits in with what is unfolding:  people are having emotions released (in a more energetic sense, one might say that obstructions of human indulgence and desires are unraveling)... thus, the ties that bind us [in attachment and desires] are loosened.

[Stosh]

Man of Men:   At least Mair is similar with "Yes.  At first, I used to think of him as a man, but now I no longer do"

 

My take is that this 'friend' viewed Lao Dan first and foremost as a [great] man; a man of men... but came to see something much deeper... the effect he had on people.   Like being in a spiritual person's presence, you might find yourself suddenly crying (sorrow or joy) without explanation...  In this case, his death triggered it in people.

 

Loosening:  Mair calls this emancipation, as does Lin Yutang; Burton calls this 'being freed'.

 

To me, loosening fits in with what is unfolding:  people are having emotions released (in a more energetic sense, one might say that obstructions of human indulgence and desires are unraveling)... thus, the ties that bind us [in attachment and desires] are loosened.

Ok but why is God preventing men from being freed ? and why has his opinion of Lao drooped because people mourned his death? (PS I think his death Would be an explanation for their grief ,,I used to like pizza hut, I no longer do.   And I thought  monotheistic god , savior of man preventing unhappiness, sits at odds with all of this, I thought the roots of Daoism were Shamanism or animism... Is Mr Qin Shi , a friend , or was he reverent of Lao as a great man , or what? ,, Now, he only offers weak condolences. His reason being what he has seen.  If he was impressed by the overwhelming power of the mans effect , wouldnt he wail More , rather than make a flimsy gesture, turn around and go home ?  )

Edited November 8, 2016 by Stosh

[dawei]

Ok but why is God preventing men from being freed ? and why has his opinion of Lao drooped because people mourned his death? (PS I think his death Would be an explanation for their grief )

 

I think you means God preventing men based on Mair's "the emancipation of the gods" (or maybe Legge's loosening).

 

It is not that God prevented it; man was preventing it with 'excessive indulgences'.   Man's attachments and desires create a situation whereby they don't follow nature, but at the first moment of following your nature, you are releasing yourself from your attachments.

 

I might say that Mair calls this emancipation of the gods to suggest (maybe I'm force fitting my idea and not his) that this emancipation occurs once we re-connect with nature, and that is something the gods empower one to be able to do.  Might be easier to think of it as 'emancipation of Dao', whereby it is Dao that gives humans the ability to re-connect; return.  

 

In my way of thinking, Dao is more like a beacon of light that one day shines through all the stuff we built up to block it... and we begin a natural return to that light.   We begin to shed stuff; we emancipate ourselves from our own doing by the power of Dao.

 

That all being said, I'm not sure I really like phrases 'emancipation' or being 'freed from' but I think that is the picture these translators are suggesting.

 

 

[dawei]

Last Line in Chinese:

 

古者謂是帝之縣解

 

古者謂 - Ancients said

是 - is

帝之 - God's or Emperor's

縣 - Prefecture (only makes sense if Emperor above) or To Hang [by the head], or hair hanging down.

 

解 - To Transport under guard (only makes sense if Emperor above)

or

解 - to divide / to break up / to split / to separate / to dissolve / to solve / to melt / to remove / to untie / to loosen / to open / to emancipate / to explain /to understand / to know / a solution / a dissection

 

Mair:  "Emancipation of the Gods"   

 

Lu Yutang: "Emancipation from bondage"

 

Burton: "being freed from the bonds of God".

 

Legge: "The ancients described (death) as the loosening of the cord on which God suspended (the life)."

 

Nina:  "dismissing the ruler from his earthly responsibilities"

[Stosh]

It is said , Freedom from the rat race is death.  or "all life entails suffering"

Edited November 8, 2016 by Stosh

[Taoist Texts]

Whats the "man of men" thing? 

It is an incorrect translation of 其人, an unusual man.

[Taoist Texts]

Yeah, punishment is, imo, not the proper word,  Perhaps "result"?

looking at the original it is indeed punishment. Because who wails for a stranger as if for a family member  will incur heavenly punishment , because  family is mandated by heaven and pretending that a stranger is family is against heaven.

[Taoist Texts]

Last Line in Chinese:

 

古者謂是帝之縣解

 

 

I believe 县 is a scribal error for 自

 

 

 

此古之所谓县解也，而不能自解者

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han/ens?searchu=%E5%8E%BF%E8%A7%A3

 

自解 untying self from mundane bonds

[Stosh]

looking at the original it is indeed punishment. Because who wails for a stranger as if for a family member  will incur heavenly punishment , because  family is mandated by heaven and pretending that a stranger is family is against heaven.

If Heaven equates to Nature and natures rule , its just unnatural to pretend sorrow for a stranger , the negative ramification for this error is a needless sorrow and wasteful behavior. ,, No gods ,and no hangman required.  

[Stosh]

It is an incorrect translation of 其人, an unusual man.

I see , he came to the funeral to see an unusual man, found out he was being mourned , was disappointed , so he made a token gesture and left. Great story.

[dawei]

I believe 县 is a scribal error for 自

 

 

 

此古之所谓县解也，而不能自解者

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han/ens?searchu=%E5%8E%BF%E8%A7%A3

 

自解 untying self from mundane bonds

 

So Legge's 'loosening' loosely fits ?

[Stosh]

So Legge's 'loosening' loosely fits ?

Extricating.