Why do some progress faster than others?

[uhapy]

This is not to brag or offend an ego

 

but how come some practices do not yield significant progress for the practitioners after a long time? There were some people I read practiced mindfulness meditation (like vipassana) and say they've been at it for 30-40-50 years and don't have any "amazing spiritual experience" but just gradually more peaceful mind... They might die soon and not realized the goal of their meditation.

 

The problem may not be the practice itself, but the quality of each moment. Most minds would think that Christianity is not as effective as Buddhism for detaching from the ego, but I was practicing Christianity for over a week and got an extravagant 'awareness'-consciousness experience after a prayer, yet the method of 'prayer' is LOUD and egotistical so why did it yield the same desired result as mindfulness eventually would've done? I think it is because prayer is "devotion to an ideal" is easier to make a big change in consciousness than mindfulness meditation.

 

The quality of a moment of fervent prayer is like someone strongly "yanking" at the roots of the ego, while a good moment of vipassana or pranayama is more like a consistent, gentle tug. Again, this is not to brag (who is even here to brag?) but to show that progress (destroying the ego) may be due to the quality of ones moment-to-moment experiences, and even for a Christian the ultimate goal is a state of 'awareness'!

 

Maybe the best practice is one focusing directly on awareness (like self-enquiry) as other kinds like vipassana focus too much on the mind-body so only work like natural sedatives.

[C T]

actually its a person's state of mind at death that matters more than anything else... while alive

 

just because one has conquered ego does not mean one has captured the wisdom of discrimination and conquered confusion and bewilderment. 

[uhapy]

Hi C T,

 

are you saying Ramana Maharshi's practice is flawed? I cannot do vipassana easily because I can't focus.

 

ramana did mention that "some people" realize at death, is practicing self-enquiry not enough to have a good death state?

Edited November 8, 2016 by uhapy

[liminal_luke]

We all want to make progress towards a state of mind from which the very concept of progress (or lack thereof) will seem not so important.

[C T]

Hi C T,

 

are you saying Ramana Maharshi's practice is flawed? I cannot do vipassana easily because I can't focus.

 

ramana did mention that "some people" realize at death, is practicing self-enquiry not enough to have a good death state?

It must have been perfect for him if he found what he set out to find, but does that mean its perfect for someone else to follow the exact means and methods? Im not so sure. 

 

to have a good approach all ready for the big 'landing' we need to practice 'dying' each moment, and actually we are dying each moment, except this is mostly ignored or taken for granted by most

 

hence why concentrative power, mindfulness and insight are quite important. These help to 'blend' life into death so that we can become familiar with death before actually dying

 

Is self-enquiry alone enough? For some it is, for others not. Karma and potential varies in all beings, so no one method is universally understood the same way. This is the unequivocal truth that applies to all 'practices' and 'methods'. I think.

[uhapy]

Meditation may synergistic with self-enquiry too.

[gendao]

This is not to brag or offend an ego

 

but how come some practices do not yield significant progress for the practitioners after a long time? There were some people I read practiced mindfulness meditation (like vipassana) and say they've been at it for 30-40-50 years and don't have any "amazing spiritual experience" but just gradually more peaceful mind... They might die soon and not realized the goal of their meditation.

 

The problem may not be the practice itself, but the quality of each moment. Most minds would think that Christianity is not as effective as Buddhism for detaching from the ego, but I was practicing Christianity for over a week and got an extravagant 'awareness'-consciousness experience after a prayer, yet the method of 'prayer' is LOUD and egotistical so why did it yield the same desired result as mindfulness eventually would've done? I think it is because prayer is "devotion to an ideal" is easier to make a big change in consciousness than mindfulness meditation.

Lol, first rodeo kiddo?  Temporary ecstatic experiences are typical spiritual initiations.  But as you noticed, they don't last - and you now have a very looonggggg & grueling road ahead of you!!!  Welcome to the grind!

Edited November 8, 2016 by gendao

[soaring crane]

 I was practicing Christianity for over a week and got an extravagant 'awareness'-consciousness experience after a prayer, 

 

no you didn't. You just tapped into something that confirmed your beliefs, and it felt good.

[uhapy]

no you didn't. You just tapped into something that confirmed your beliefs, and it felt good.

If you say so who can disagree?

 

Lol, first rodeo kiddo?  Temporary ecstatic experiences are typical spiritual initiations.  But as you noticed, they don't last - and you now have a very looonggggg & grueling road ahead of you!!!  Welcome to the grind!

This feeling of ecstasy is not what I experienced. It was awareness and peace that I cannot describe. It was also an altered consciousness state, all 5 senses were disturbed but also beyond clear description. 

 

Indeed it didn't last, but it lasted a long time, through sleep and into the next day. Then it disappeared. It felt like an awakening and the lack of ecstasy has me curious if it is so common among Christians.

[Taomeow]

 yet the method of 'prayer' is LOUD and egotistical

 

I like this part!  Yes, exactly, prayer is about instant gratification, and occasionally, we get that. 

 

Occasionally.  Not on every single occasion.  Not always as gratifying as we expected it to be.  I think it's a case of "be careful what you wish for" which some people need to learn via direct experience or they won't believe that something may be wrong with "I want it all and I want it now."  It seems so right after all.  And if our prayers are answered, our faith is reinforced.  And if they are not answered, it is either shaken or rationalized. 

 

None of it happens in meditation.  You are establishing a relationship with yourself, not with some wish-granting entity somewhere high up there.  A relationship with oneself is tricky, because it is so much more difficult to fantasize about yourself than about god in heaven.  You just know yourself too well...  including the fact that you don't really know who you are.  You know that you don't know, right?.. 

 

It's easier to rely on someone else's mind than to develop your own.  Heart, spirit, same deal.  Yours are your work station, and if you pray, i.e. call on someone else to do your work for you...  well, then they will take all the credit, and what have you done?  Whined and begged and made promises like a good little boy who wants candy.  OK, the adult gave you some this time.  Praise the lord!  But it's still in his power to not give it to you the next time, decide you've been naughty, smack you, send you to your room, do whatever he likes with you.  Very tempting for little kids who are terrified of growing up more than of anything else.  Familiar, and comforting in its familiarity.  No venturing where they haven't been yet, into adulthood.  Just find a big daddy in heaven and you don't have to grow up, don't have to be courageous enough to find out who you are when you grow up. 

 

Churches of the world are full of those charming little kids, some of them ninety years old.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Taomeow

[gendao]

This feeling of ecstasy is not what I experienced. It was awareness and peace that I cannot describe. It was also an altered consciousness state, all 5 senses were disturbed but also beyond clear description. 

 

Indeed it didn't last, but it lasted a long time, through sleep and into the next day. Then it disappeared. It felt like an awakening and the lack of ecstasy has me curious if it is so common among Christians.

Peak, ecstatic, divine, miraculous, supernatural, whatever...the initiation comes in many flavors...

 

As you noticed, it wasn't sustained and you are not able to replicate it at will now.  That's where all the manual work comes in.  Been there, doing that now...

[silent thunder]

dreams within dreams...

which ripples on the pond are real?

[roger]

Uhapy,

 

Some progress faster than others probably because their heart is more in the right place, and their intention and desire is more pure.

 

You could meditate for decades and not find what you're looking for, or you could have a great breakthrough in a day, and bypass the need for years of meditation.

 

Do you see my point? It's a matter of willingness, of free-will, of desire and intention.

 

When your heart isn't in the right place, spiritual practice becomes grounded in ego and pride, and is a substitute for divine love and a more honest spiritual life.

[Vajra Fist]

It is difficult to be born as a human, and our lives are limited. Upon realising this I became disheartened until I realised we have only two realistic choices if our goal is liberation, we either renounce our ordinary lives and cultivate in seclusion or a remote monastery. Or we practice the nembutsu with the goal of being reborn in Amida's pure land for further cultivation outside of the realm of samsara.

[joeblast]

It is difficult to be born as a human, and our lives are limited. Upon realising this I became disheartened until I realised we have only two realistic choices if our goal is liberation, we either renounce our ordinary lives and cultivate in seclusion or a remote monastery. Or we practice the nembutsu with the goal of being reborn in Amida's pure land for further cultivation outside of the realm of samsara.

but then again, if I were the maker of the puzzle, that might be considered a training module for having to do it in the real world...

[uhapy]

I like this part!  Yes, exactly, prayer is about instant gratification, and occasionally, we get that. 

 

Occasionally.  Not on every single occasion.  Not always as gratifying as we expected it to be.  I think it's a case of "be careful what you wish for" which some people need to learn via direct experience or they won't believe that something may be wrong with "I want it all and I want it now."  It seems so right after all.  And if our prayers are answered, our faith is reinforced.  And if they are not answered, it is either shaken or rationalized. 

 

None of it happens in meditation.  You are establishing a relationship with yourself, not with some wish-granting entity somewhere high up there.  A relationship with oneself is tricky, because it is so much more difficult to fantasize about yourself than about god in heaven.  You just know yourself too well...  including the fact that you don't really know who you are.  You know that you don't know, right?.. 

 

It's easier to rely on someone else's mind than to develop your own.  Heart, spirit, same deal.  Yours are your work station, and if you pray, i.e. call on someone else to do your work for you...  well, then they will take all the credit, and what have you done?  Whined and begged and made promises like a good little boy who wants candy.  OK, the adult gave you some this time.  Praise the lord!  But it's still in his power to not give it to you the next time, decide you've been naughty, smack you, send you to your room, do whatever he likes with you.  Very tempting for little kids who are terrified of growing up more than of anything else.  Familiar, and comforting in its familiarity.  No venturing where they haven't been yet, into adulthood.  Just find a big daddy in heaven and you don't have to grow up, don't have to be courageous enough to find out who you are when you grow up. 

 

Churches of the world are full of those charming little kids, some of them ninety years ol detail you misunderstood - I did not mean "loud and egotistical" in a bad way.

 

You made a good premise but I didn't mean "loud and egotistical" in a bad way.

 

You are confusing me for one who prays for things outside of oneself. A "poor Christian"; someome who doesn't practice ANYTHING. Meditation is an egotistical practice too. The intensity of a prayer can be way more powerful than good meditation because the "good Christian" is so devoted to being "the quiet and mild spirit that is so precious to God" that they PASSIONATELY pursue it. They cannot "stop" and "be" because they're like babies who would die without their mother. Thus they get the goal faster with fleeting bouts of prayer than one who meditates for years and years - this would explain perfectly why I achieved that uninterrupted state of 'awareness'-consciousness in only a week of being a "good" Christian while it is taking me much more time to feel it for a moment with meditation.

 

Both meditation and prayer are efforts to the same thing. You and other members were reacting to my post in ignorance, not with the wonder that I felt at prayer achieving a prolonged state of 'awareness'. How different are prayer and meditation? Church-goers who ask their God for 'things' the bible tells them is not good for them... Material stuff, pleasures, enjoyments, 'wanting' external things = impure. 

 

The point is: stop thinking about the difference between prayer and your practice of meditation, look at the similarites. You can find Jesus in the tao and Laotse in the bible if you are earnest. That is it really, now I have answered myself. "Devotion to an ideal" explained my experience with Christianity. My goal was to be a "good Christian" so it was not something "other" than what your goal is with meditation, but my effort was greater then that is now.

 

I did meditation all day btw. I felt the "awareness" state for a few minutes. It was like the state I got with prayer but it lasted for an entire day then, even through dreaming state. Now I recognize the awareness state and see I felt it as a kid also, perhaps it is predetermined.

[silent thunder]

calm heart

quiet heart

sincere heart...

 

with these every breath, every action becomes practice and life resonates with potency

 

without them, it's just waving your hands in the air...

[Kubba]

This is not to brag or offend an ego

 

but how come some practices do not yield significant progress for the practitioners after a long time? There were some people I read practiced mindfulness meditation (like vipassana) and say they've been at it for 30-40-50 years and don't have any "amazing spiritual experience" but just gradually more peaceful mind... They might die soon and not realized the goal of their meditation.

 

The problem may not be the practice itself, but the quality of each moment. Most minds would think that Christianity is not as effective as Buddhism for detaching from the ego, but I was practicing Christianity for over a week and got an extravagant 'awareness'-consciousness experience after a prayer, yet the method of 'prayer' is LOUD and egotistical so why did it yield the same desired result as mindfulness eventually would've done? I think it is because prayer is "devotion to an ideal" is easier to make a big change in consciousness than mindfulness meditation.

 

The quality of a moment of fervent prayer is like someone strongly "yanking" at the roots of the ego, while a good moment of vipassana or pranayama is more like a consistent, gentle tug. Again, this is not to brag (who is even here to brag?) but to show that progress (destroying the ego) may be due to the quality of ones moment-to-moment experiences, and even for a Christian the ultimate goal is a state of 'awareness'!

 

Maybe the best practice is one focusing directly on awareness (like self-enquiry) as other kinds like vipassana focus too much on the mind-body so only work like natural sedatives.

 

 

I believe that it all depands on weather you do it yourself style or approach a teacher/ master. 

 

Sometimes after awakening it takes many years to become stable and mature. I've read story of UG Krishnamurti recently so he bagan his spiritua quest when he was a teenager and a breakthrough happend to him when he was 49. After that it took for him some more years to stabilize his state.

 

In some other pace I've heard that it is a big misunderstanding to think that everyone is equal in this process, that everyone has the same chance.

[uhapy]

I believe that it all depands on weather you do it yourself style or approach a teacher/ master. 

 

Sometimes after awakening it takes many years to become stable and mature. I've read story of UG Krishnamurti recently so he bagan his spiritua quest when he was a teenager and a breakthrough happend to him when he was 49. After that it took for him some more years to stabilize his state.

 

In some other pace I've heard that it is a big misunderstanding to think that everyone is equal in this process, that everyone has the same chance.

This is one reason to say the predetermined

 

This would be an explanation to how some people like Ramana Maharshi and Robert Adams are fully awakened permanently very quickly after not much effort while other people who practice their practices remain identified with the ego for a long time even though they want to stop. Their samskaras are more intact.

 

When I was a kid in childhood I was way more spiritually "advanced" than I was currently in that the majority of my flaws were learned after childhood, such as all the egotistical reactions (like talking back to insults or desire to control others) and even reacting to pain was different in that I didn't react to pain like being hit or burns. The desire to listen to music, play video games, watch TV, dress in 'cool' clothes was not present until age 12 (even though I had these things). But all of these things listed came to me after I began thinking I needed them due to a strong desire for social acceptance as a teenger.

 

If there is reincarnation then it is possible that people who practice a spiritual path in a previous life move it to the next life but then it is lost with age - in fact this is what Ramana Maharshi said about samskaras (mental tendencies), he said they pass down to the next life (which doesn't exist) until the samskaras are destroyed permanently (permanent state of awakening)

 

Determinism is another explanation. Nisaragadatta Maharaj supported some sort of determinism near the end of his life when he denied reincarnation, sort of like the idea that everyone is playing a part in a film and they cannot deviate much from it. This would suggest some people like Ramana were MEANT to be "awakened" like that. 

[9th]

If you are asking about efforts from a previous life carrying over into this life, it will be extremely difficult to prove to yourself unless you have some kind of personal evidence.  Generally such an occurrence is an accepted phenomena in a number of different traditions from all over the world, but also many of these same traditions advise one to not accept anything on blind faith alone - so that is the predicament that you will face when dealing with any "non-ordinary" (or "supernatural") phenomena and situations.

 

Its all quite flashy.  Its the kind of thing that attracts the most people.  The so-called "woo-woo" aspect of self-cultivation is by far the most marketable - simply because it appeals to the lowest common denominator, which is namely: power.  Supernatural power is obviously going to be quite appealing to almost everyone.  Certain folks dont really care about such things but they are incredibly rare.

 

The thing that is usually least appealing is the actual day-to-day, moment by moment WORK that must be done on a continuous basis.  If you could imagine the act of breathing being something that is no longer automatic, and requires your constant supervision and maintenance and so forth - you will get an idea of what the path of self-cultivation is really about.  It may be incredibly tedious - even beyond your wildest dreams of tedium.  Transcendence of the human condition is growth and evolution into the higher and the lower, simultaneously.  Its going to break your mind open... eventually... by putting you through experiences beyond pleasure and pain, beyond thrills and boredom.  Its not a subject for light conversation.  Especially when you get to the stuff that matters.  Thats when the chaff starts falling away from the wheat and you learn what real solitude is all about.

 

Kaivalya (कैवल्य), is the ultimate goal of Raja yoga and means "solitude", "detachment" or "isolation", a vrddhi-derivation from kevala "alone, isolated". It is the isolation of purusha from prakṛti, and subsequent liberation from rebirth.

 

The 34 Yoga Sutras of Patanjali of the fourth chapter deal with impressions left by our endless cycles of birth and the rationale behind the necessity of erasing such impressions. It portrays the yogi, who has attained kaivalya, as an entity who has gained independence from all bondages and achieved the absolute true consciousness or ritambhara prajna described in the Samadhi Pada.

 

"…Or, to look from another angle, the power of pure consciousness settles in its own pure nature." —Kaivalya Pada: Sutra 34.

 

"Only the minds born of meditation are free from karmic impressions." —Kaivalya Pada: Sutra 6.

 

"Since the desire to live is eternal, impressions are also beginningless. The impressions being held together by cause, effect, basis and support, they disappear with the disappearance of these four." —Kaivalya Pada: Sutra 10-11. 

 

The Yogatattva Upanishad (16-18) reads, "Kaivalya is the very nature of the self, the supreme state (paramam padam). It is without parts and is stainless. It is the direct intuition of the Real-existence, intelligence and bliss. It is devoid of birth, existence, destruction, recognition, and experience. This is called knowledge."^[2]

 

[uhapy]

 

If you could imagine the act of breathing being something that is no longer automatic, and requires your constant supervision and maintenance and so forth - you will get an idea of what the path of self-cultivation is really about.  It may be incredibly tedious - even beyond your wildest dreams of tedium.  

This part of your post stood out to me... Thank you.

 

It is nice to hear others think it is tedious and not just me. And treating it like the necessity to breathe is a clever trick to get by this.

[dawei]

In answer to the title, IMO:  Karmic Destiny 

[silent thunder]

If it's really your intent... you will find a way.

 

If it is not... you will settle for an excuse.

[ChiForce]

In answer to the title, IMO:  Karmic Destiny 

Hahahahahaha....correct.   

 

For the OP, not progress.  Is why some would require a life time to gain only a small amount of realization while others can reach a fuller realization in half the life time.  Too complicated.  Is karma, past life, present life, and future life.  Second, karmic merit gets carried to the next subsequent lives.  That plays a key role.  There are reasons for a particular mind to reach to a fuller realization.  Is not fame.  Is not the measure of progress.  Is not about goal either. 

[Daeluin]

In dissolving the labyrinth of one's own creation, it is helpful to see the walls.

In reading the destination of one's momentum, it is helpful to recall the steps one walked.

When lost, simply look for the heart, and tread sincerely the path of balance.