Xiao Yao Pai & Xiantian Dao Yin Shu - [OFFICIAL THREAD]

Aetherous · November 11, 2016

It seems to me that it should probably be a forum rule, that we don't disparage the ways of different schools and say they're wrong. We can only speak for our own school.

Then again, freedom is great.

effilang · November 12, 2016

Cheers, Flowing Hands and thank you for your opinion, but I'm genuinely not interested in your help and I'd like to ask you to respect that.

It has been abundantly clear on many occasions now that we are not in agreement, and I do not come to your thread to speak against your traditions, so please stop coming to ours to do just that, over and over again..

I'm sure this forum is big enough to allow such a simple courtesy...

Farewell.

Edited November 12, 2016 by effilang

Walker · November 12, 2016

Really solid questions, Walker. I really appreciate that. Before I try to answer them, perhaps we can try something more practical if you would honor me with 10 minutes of your time in TDB live chat?

I feel that If I can let you experience it yourself, I will not need to even reply to your questions.

If that does not yield any results, however, then I will answer your question here in text, alas, again, these will be but my experiences alone, and nothing that can really substantiate my claims for you

My words will always be my words, but if you can have your own experience, then you can understand for yourself.

Please PM me here or on Facebook: xuan daoji and I can try to give you a direct experience.

It very well may be the better option to ease your doubts, but please be aware that it is not at my discretion, I only have the authority to ask Tai Shang and my Hu Fa Shen, but not to "make" it happen.

Thanks : )

PS: I've arranged for a testimonial from a Dao Zhang whom has over 10 years plus on me on your behalf. I'll post that here when it has been issued and I'm happy to share my own experiences.

Hi Effilang,

Thanks for your offer, but it isn't really practical for me to take you up on it at the moment. And to be completely honest, I'm really more interested in how you will answer this with words, precisely because everything you've been sharing with us about XYP for the last few years has come in the form of words.

What draws my curiosity is that you devote no small amount of verbiage to presenting three types of stories here. The first type of story you've shared involves numerous new students' early experiences with a zifagong-esque practice (ironically, even the claim, "what we teach isn't typical zifagong" seems to come part and parcel with most zifagong teachings!). The second type of story you've shared involves a vast cosmology and its complex, detailed ontology. The third type of story is the idea of a gradated practice: eventually, the beginner who is represented in the first type of story should be go from, "well, my XYP teachers said that what's happening is because a spirit who was assigned to me by Taishang Laojun is helping me, so I'll take their words for it," to, "now I have seen and verified with my own 'eyes' that what my teachers were talking about all along is true."

Here's an analogy to explain how this looks to me: this thread is a bit like setting up wine and cheese promotional events at the office of a travel agent specializing in trips to Paris--or the Wuji Heaven, take your pick. Our travel agent brings us convincing evidence that Paris exists. In the form of triggering zifagong, he can even give people a little taste of Paris from afar. He must also make people believe that it's possible to go to Paris themselves, or else they won't take the next step, and actually make the effort to travel there.

Thus far in what you've shared about XYP, I've heard from a lot of people who've tasted a little bit of proverbial wine and cheese, and they take their teachers' words for it that what they're munching on is the real deal; to me they sound like visitors to the travel agent's office who take it on faith that Parisians really do eat maracons drink Chateneuf du Pape. Effilang, our truly tireless travel agent, narrates to us great detail where the airports are, how to arrange flights, and he also gives all sorts of interesting excerpts from the Lonely Planet Guide to Paris that seem to answer any possible question. To further set our travel jitters at ease, he also offers lots of enthusiastic testimonials from satisfied clients. But there's a problem: upon close examination, one sees that all these testimonials only come from people who are praising previous wine and cheese events at the travel agent's office! After several years of this, I think it's a little bit strange: why aren't any actual seasoned travelers returning to give testimonials about Paris itself, after they've made the trip? I even start to wonder, has our diligent travel agent, Effilang, even been there himself yet?

Since XYP regularly collects written testimonials and then uses them to communicate--proselytize might even be the right word--with the public, I'd like to see how you answer my questions with words, if possible. Here they are again:

Could you offer testimonials from people who report actually directly experiencing the vast cosmology that you paint for us here? Do you yourself now, after several years with your school, hold actual verbal discussions with a spiritual entity, or several of them? Do you--not in a dream but in the completely conscious state that you say is the mark of XYP practice--have the ability to enter into the wuji realm and confirm firsthand for yourself that what you say about this celestial hierarchy, gold auras, immortals affiliated and unaffiliated with various lineages, and so forth is not just a "teaching" but an actual, tangible experience available to you as a living human being?

P.S., just in case, I should say that my travel agent analogy is not an attempt to underhandedly suggest that you're after people's money--it's a non-profit travel agent, of course!

effilang · November 12, 2016

Are these only spontaneous movements or do you get some knowledge about their meaning. For example, the book linked above mentions the five elements. When you are examining them, do you get an exercise that you then return to by yourself, or is all practice guided and different?

Hi Mudfoot,

Yes, there are certain exercises that we learn which we can do on our own to maintain our body, absorb environmental energy, train the lower dantien etc. We also have handseals, spoken words and hu - which we can use to enable certain energetic "programs" that execute a particular function within the body of the practitioner or outside the body of the practitioner.

Even though we have an outline for our curriculum which is carried out by our Hu Fa Shen, every person is unique and that is clearly reflected in their training, although the same milestones are achieved by every practitioner of the school.

The depth to which each student understands what is going on in the body whilst Hu Fa Shen moves us during Shen Gong, Shen Gong or Jing Zuo, depends entirely on their sensitivity and wisdom, both of which increase with practice.

Some people who have been practising for long prior to their initiation, and can already feel the currents of subtle energy flowing through their body have a much easier time after they become initiated when it comes to understanding why HFS moves us a certain way during Shen Gong.

Usually when it comes to the Shen Gong, but not always, because there are also more advanced Shen Gong practices, it's quite easy to understand why HFS is moving us a certain way. If you review some of the testimonials, you'll find a clear pattern of statements describing how HFS knows exactly what is wrong with the person from a physiological, energetic and emotional stand point and directly treats the issue through the targeted movements in Shen Gong, so to that degree, people are quite aware of what is going on and what that is affecting in their body, moreover, they all claim relief from their chronic symptoms and pains of which they are aware.

For my mother whom has had spinal issues almost all her life, her HFS, spent most of the first week working on her spine. After the first day, I had never seen her stand up as straight as she did. There are so many occurrences like these, but at the start while HFS is correcting the body, they usually go straight for the weak points first.

After the body has been balanced, the movements will subside and HFS will lead you into Qigong.

It's necessary first that the physical body is balanced and strong, or when you sit to meditate afterwards, it will always disturb you with pains and aches - and every time your attention is recalled to the physical sensation your awareness will snap out of emptiness and find it very hard to freeze ones spirit in single pointed attention, a prerequisite for higher work.

As conscious beings, we generally know what our issues are. Whether we have pain here, or there, whether we are jealous or have a short fuse or low energy. By maintaining our awareness and observing the practice as HFS guides us, we can clearly see the before and after and understand how this has changed us. I could write a book about my healing experiences. since I started practising, and you can see the same from many others only 1 week after their initiation.

I'd like to say that yes, one could record certain practices and then even offer them to others as a prescription, many masters in the past have, but every persons constitution is different. Even those that share similar issues on the surface, could have something very different going on under the hood that lead to the final symptom. In cases like that, we might think we're helping by offering a specialised exercise, when instead we may be exacerbating the persons condition, making things worse. That's why I'm not a fan of your typical McDonalds Qigong classes, because the teacher often doesn't have the insight to see beyond their own nose.

This is primarily why we have HFS guide us, because they can see into us on every level and lead us in a way that is suitable to our skill, understanding and condition.

There are certain milestones as I mentioned before, where the practice is unified among all students, but the path to get there is very unique, and so everyone will move in their own way based on HFS's guidance, and have to overcome their own inner demons : )

In my case, I can feel and sometimes also see through which meridians the energy is flowing when HFS moves my body and how that corresponds to certain subtle or physical conditions within myself.

The Mawangdui scroll above is an example of such a reduction of Xian Tian Dao Yin Shu.

With the aim to preserve what they could, its authors recorded the most important parts of specific movements which they had concluded stimulated the body in certain ways.

While you will find yourself performing many of these movements while practising Xian Tian Shen Gong in our school, they are just but a snapshot of the complete system of XTDYS.

When we are initiated, each student receives a HFS to guide us in the tradition of our school and your HFS is always your primary teacher, but just like in school even though you have your head teacher, you also have other teachers from which you can learn other subjects. In a similar fashion, while we always follow HFS to make progress in our school, the activation which takes place during initiation also allows us to connect to any immortal or spirit in the non-physical dimension, should we wish to open a dialogue on a particular topic with another being about something that we are curious about.

I've practised with many Daoist immortals, not just my HFS and the same privilege is available to any initiate of XYP. We don't have any dogma. Just be natural and curious and play like a child that is discovering new things for the first time.

So to conclude the answer to your question. Because we share the same fundamental structure and make up, there will be many shared movements during guided Shen Gong and Qigong practice, although the intensity, timing and frequency will vary with each person depending on their physical, energetic, emotional, mental and spiritual condition; and this all creates very individual practice sessions. Much of that is evident by reading through the testimonials.

Edited November 12, 2016 by effilang

effilang · November 12, 2016

Hi Effilang,

Thanks for your offer, but it isn't really practical for me to take you up on it at the moment. And to be completely honest, I'm really more interested in how you will answer this with words, precisely because everything you've been sharing with us about XYP for the last few years has come in the form of words.

What draws my curiosity is that you devote no small amount of verbiage to presenting three types of stories here. The first type of story you've shared involves numerous new students' early experiences with a zifagong-esque practice (ironically, even the claim, "what we teach isn't typical zifagong" seems to come part and parcel with most zifagong teachings!). The second type of story you've shared involves a vast cosmology and its complex, detailed ontology. The third type of story is the idea of a gradated practice: eventually, the beginner who is represented in the first type of story should be go from, "well, my XYP teachers said that what's happening is because a spirit who was assigned to me by Taishang Laojun is helping me, so I'll take their words for it," to, "now I have seen and verified with my own 'eyes' that what my teachers were talking about all along is true."

Here's an analogy to explain how this looks to me: this thread is a bit like setting up wine and cheese promotional events at the office of a travel agent specializing in trips to Paris--or the Wuji Heaven, take your pick. Our travel agent brings us convincing evidence that Paris exists. In the form of triggering zifagong, he can even give people a little taste of Paris from afar. He must also make people believe that it's possible to go to Paris themselves, or else they won't take the next step, and actually make the effort to travel there.

Thus far in what you've shared about XYP, I've heard from a lot of people who've tasted a little bit of proverbial wine and cheese, and they take their teachers' words for it that what they're munching on is the real deal; to me they sound like visitors to the travel agent's office who take it on faith that Parisians really do eat maracons drink Chateneuf du Pape. Effilang, our truly tireless travel agent, narrates to us great detail where the airports are, how to arrange flights, and he also gives all sorts of interesting excerpts from the Lonely Planet Guide to Paris that seem to answer any possible question. To further set our travel jitters at ease, he also offers lots of enthusiastic testimonials from satisfied clients. But there's a problem: upon close examination, one sees that all these testimonials only come from people who are praising previous wine and cheese events at the travel agent's office! After several years of this, I think it's a little bit strange: why aren't any actual seasoned travelers returning to give testimonials about Paris itself, after they've made the trip? I even start to wonder, has our diligent travel agent, Effilang, even been there himself yet?

Since XYP regularly collects written testimonials and then uses them to communicate--proselytize might even be the right word--with the public, I'd like to see how you answer my questions with words, if possible. Here they are again:

P.S., just in case, I should say that my travel agent analogy is not an attempt to underhandedly suggest that you're after people's money--it's a non-profit travel agent, of course!

Haha. I loved reading that, Walker. Thanks for all the vivid imagery. I had a big grin on my face while going through it - and yes, you're absolutely right. Everything you say is as it is. I cannot argue with it. Also, please just call me Effi : )

The truth is that I have ALWAYS focused on the getting the experience of the initiation fresh from new Dao Yu as soon as I can. Often I get asked, "but wouldn't you like me to practice a little longer to get more experiences?" - I tend to answer; yes you can if you wish, but my focus is on the initiation, why, because that is how we stand out from all the woo woo.

Anyone can make any claim about spirits and Gods. Lets face it, that's child's play, but being able to prove it substantially in the time frame of what is often around 5 minutes, that's something that not many people can do.

I appreciate that as some things become increasingly more available to the public, that their perceived value can proportionally begin to decrease, but let's not forget how fundamentally groundbreaking such an experience really is.

I've had the most hardcore atheists come to initiations, and they have been left in absolute shock after their HFS connects to them and begins to move their body. Until the last moment most people think it's complete bullshit, then suddenly their whole belief system is flipped 180.

It's not easy to believe something for 20, 30, 40 years, and then have that thrown out of the window in 5 minutes. The cognitive dissonance alone can be incredibly overwhelming. I know that you want to push for more, it is in our nature as humans, but in doing so lets not negate the import and significance of what it is that we are already able to offer and accomplish in terms of helping people widen their experience of reality. I do not think it is a minor feat at all and I do not say that to be conceited, but rather to shine a spotlight on something that of itself is of a truly miraculous and life altering nature.

Without our ability to substantiate our quite frankly "wild" claims, through the initiation, we can easily be thrown together in a basket with the Easter bunny. So, while I understand and respect your intention, lets not forget the weight of being able to connect someone to the divine realm and help them touch divinity in a matter of minutes.

My agenda is not to remain in this sphere forever. In fact, I am so confident in what we do, that I'm making strides to establish connections with the scientific community and begin to build a bridge between the science of old and the science of today.

Imagine a leading Quantum Physicist who could cultivate the ability to observe phenomena at a quantum level and discern processes that we have yet machines capable of observing. What of Medicine, what of Psychology and the rest of Religion?

Xian Tian Dao Yin Shu is a tool which has the potential to advance humanity on a level which has not been available openly to our kind for a very long time and I will dedicate the rest of my life to helping people employ it to advance their humanity as well as their divinity.

Because of this, our focus in the west has been solely on the act of initiation as a method of empirical proof; something that we can observe and experience rather than simply theorise and philosophise - because proof, is the only way to get your foot into the scientific community and PROOF, is the only thing that should really count in matters of truth and the discovery of our existence. We are not faith or belief based. We have no dogma, no books to follow, no taboos and no prohibitions. What is, is between the student and Tai Shang.

So, as you have accurately observed, the testimonials are focused on the process and events of the initiation and not anything else that quite frankly is too fantastical to mention. It is admittedly by my design and catered to my target audience in the west, and it is for a reason great than me, or you, or our school.

Of course we could share stories of spiritual battles, exorcisms, out of body experiences, travels to other planets, inexplicable medical recoveries, predictions of the future, recollections of past lives, spells, talismans, visions, communications of all manner and magical practices, but lets be reasonable, what type of an audience would that attract? - NOT the audience I wish to partake in our education and cultivation.

We do not want the fighters seeking to make themselves strong so they can dominate their opponents, or the unvirtuous seeking to develop power that they may control others. No. We want the one who wants to become initiated so that he can heal his little brother. We want the one who wants to fight to protect the rights of others. We want the one who seeks to make the world a better place through the knowledge they unravel in the process of their apprenticeship under HFS.

Our fundamental motivation is humanitarianism first, and spirituality second. So, if you're querying as to why I haven't asked for testimonials from those who have been practising for 10, 20, 30 and 40+ years and believe me there are many of the 140,000+ initiated who fall under this category. It is because the stories have no value and contribution to the pragmatism of human life and human evolution. To do so we would only cater to new age nuts, and attract those seeking mystical experiences, putting magic, bliss and power, ahead of compassion, tranquillity, wisdom, honour and our collective evolution as a species. HFS might appear before your eyes when you become initiated, but he will fix your body first.

I categorically do not want to attract that sort of a crowd and I immediately cut off anyone wishing to join our school that exhibits such characteristics. I am prepared to take as much flack as all the guns in the world can fire at my chest, but I will not budge on this matter, not now, not ever. The quality and motivation of our Dao Yu is of absolute importance to us.

Nevertheless, I have organised a Dao Zhang with around 24 years of experience over me to share in his experiences, so perhaps that will quell your curiosity in this regard, but this is a singular initiative on my part and I don't imagine I would be doing it again, because as I've been saying, what you put out, is what you attract, and I'm very conscious about that dynamic.

He has already began to compose it for you, so hopefully this will help to paint some colour into this area of XYP for those that are curious.

Without being disrespectful in anyway and I'm trying to be very diplomatic here - I find it very difficult to spend excessive time and care in convincing those that are strongly averse or adamantly irresolute in their doubt, when I can gently open the doors to those that are willing to walk in on their own and find out for themselves. I have a finite energy and a finite life and I want to have as great an impact as I can on as many people as I can while I am still around. I get no medals by convincing those that are difficult to convince vs those that are easy to convince or those that need no convincing at all - because at the end of the day all that matters to me is to see the people making progress, growing, expanding, developing spirituality and transforming as a human being and a divine being.

It is easier to go with the current of the river than against it, and believe me in our day and age, the current is strong, very strong. I need only relax and It will carry me. So why fight it? Why should I convince you? What's in it for me? What do you give me that is so worth my time and effort? : )

In terms of spontaneous Qigong... it's veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery different from XYP xiu liangong.

Many many day 1 and day 2 Dao Yu can already speak to their HFS and have extensive dialogues.

During the longer part of my first months of training, I spent a lot of time lying on the bed simply asking HFS questions about the universe and asking the answers to things that science had yet not discovered. Things about the planets, physics, the dynamics of spiritual evolution and so on and so forth.

HFS helps with daily things as well quite often. He might advise you what to eat and what not to eat.

Often my mother would reach for some type of food (she is diabetic) and HFS would pull her hand back and advise her otherwise. The decision is then hers based on the information received from HFS as to what she wants to do. We are not obliged to follow and we must bear our karma.

In Xian Tian Dao Yin Shu we are not moved by some unconscious power. We're directed by a conscious being, with it's own personality, memories, past lifetimes and so on and so forth. You can talk to it, discuss, argue, debate and explore any facet of life you wish.

So there's no comparison in terms of Spontaneous Qigong : )

If HFS moves your hand right, you can resist it and move it left, at the beginning level, this is the easiest way to feel HFSs power and establish the differential between your consciousness and his/her's, if you can't hear or see them at this point.

I remember one time my mum was rushing for work to catch the bus, HFS stopped her and said, don't take the bus now, take a taxi there will be an accident. Right after she took the taxi to work, the bus crashed. There are hundreds upon hundreds of stories like this from our Dao Yu.

I've successfully also been able to connect to people across the planet with HFS and through Tai Shang's grace, move their body so they can experience the proof. I was surprised myself about this one, because it's a matter of spiritual authority.

I know that it seems difficult to believe from the outside, I truly do appreciate it. I've never asked for anyone to believe me, only to come and test it for themselves. Like I said before, I don't want people to follow me, I want them to lead themselves.

If you look at any of our testimonials, you will see people are at home practising on a daily basis with HFS guiding them.

People from all over the world, able to be moved and communicate. Honestly they are not paid actors. I wouldn't have the money to pay them all! haha

Even if I sat here and told you about fighting with spirits, astral travel, emptiness, inter-dimensional travel, Qi manipulation and all that stuff. Is that what you really want to hear? Is that the sort of thing you need to convince you?

Isn't it just better to read a good book?

The bottom line is that our Dao Yu do experience all these things, but that's not the focus.

How can we change this world? How can we bring people out of ignorance and uproot their focus from the chains of materialism so they can know their eternal nature? How can we do that? By telling stories of spirits and magical realms, or by giving them something they can experience with their own senses, with their own hearing, sight, smell and touch?

I wish to focus on the latter, because it is the only thing which they can know for themselves, NOW. RIGHT NOW. Not 10 years from now, not 20 years from now, but now, and then should they choose to, they can develop further and explore whatever they wish.

I do not have any other form of proof that is more substantial that that of one's own personal sense based experience and I truly believe than anyone who favors theory, philosophy and text over actual experiences and results is in some serious fort-knox-level-lock-down denial, and I'll go as far as to say fear of being proven wrong. That's why a few people here will love to sit and text me and criticize me, but when I openly invite them to come and test us, all I hear is the crickets in return.

Most Houtian schools cannot bear their heart raw like this and hand the stake to the doubters, because few can demonstrate the results even after a life time of supposed cultivation, but they are more than happy to tell you to practice for 10 years and pay exorbitant fees. People want proof, NOW. Not in 10 years not in 20 years. What sort of a master cannot demonstrate his skill?

This is what our initiation stands for. It is the laboratory whereby that experiment may be carried out.

Beyond this, I am simply catering to your imagination, for all the things you want to hear me say, have already been written in thousands of books before my words or my being ever existed, but few are the places that can prove it.

This is our heart. This is our method of conviction, and I find it far superior than anything of any theory or opinion I can share with you here, because that is all my words will ever be to anyone else, nothing more than my thoughts and my knowings, but they are not yours, they never will be. Not until you can experience it too.

It's not up to me, it's up to you. I wish not to force you or convince you. It is up to you. Truly it is.

I gain nothing, I lose nothing. I only wish that you stop believing me and know it for yourself through experience; because that experience is a gateway to a world of infinite possibilities - and from the bottom of my heart, I wish that for everyone.

I will post the Dao Zhang's testimonial here, when it has been written for you, but I do not believe it is the substance you truly need, because you're far too smart for that. The inevitable outcome of all of this, and the only thing that can ever mean something, lies in testing it by yourself. Otherwise we are nothing but ignorant followers, no better than a religious folks with the teachers blinders over our eyes to tunnel our path into yet another version of faith.

Edited November 13, 2016 by effilang

Vajra Fist · November 12, 2016

Very cool. Thanks for answering the questions above. I think what Walker was asking, and I'm curious to know too, is what is the end goal of the practice. Can it lead to final awakening in this lifetime, liberation from samsara?

grassmountiansage · November 12, 2016

Yet the hand forms you have shown are those from the Southern Shaolin Monastery and not from any genuine Daoist school; one very large hole.

He is right on this I noticed it as well but wasnt going to say anything on it but flowing hands is right.

The meditation to me looked like very old shaolin.

Edited November 12, 2016 by grassmountiansage

effilang · November 12, 2016

.

grassmountiansage, on 12 Nov 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

He is right on this I noticed it as well but wasnt going to say anything on it but flowing hands is right.

The meditation to me looked like very old shaolin

Yes, Indeed the movements do look very Shaolin-esque in this session! Very beautiful and flamboyant, which is what I specifically asked FFS for.

I recognized many of them while I was being guided, but I think you guys are thinking in a "box" and making a very fundamental mistake:

You're ascribing the human body to a religious modality and locking yourself inside concepts.

When your raise the hands and lower them or breathe in and breathe out, is this Taoist, Buddhist, Christian or Muslim?
When you practice hold the ball at chest level, is this Taoist, Buddhist, Christian or Muslim?
When you walk slowly and focus your attention on the present, is this Taoist, Buddhist, Christian or Muslim?
When you stretch your arms left and right, is this Taoist, Buddhist, Christian or Muslim?
When you focus on the lower dantien and do Buddhist breathing and Daoist breathing, are these really one or the other?
When you blink your eyes, is it Taoist or Buddhist? : )

You are getting locked in concepts, rather than seeing that it is all inherently empty.

The human body generally has the same bones, muscles, meridians and overall structure across all people and we all share these characteristics. Moving your body one way or the other, triggers the same effect in any human being, regardless of whether you are Taoist or Buddhist or whether you pray to a packet of waffles.

The fingers represent the five elements and are the ending points of many major meridians that link to the internal organs and energy circuits. There is no such thins as a Buddhist mudra, or a Taaoist handseal; there is only that way in which you configure and arrange your fingers to effect the physical body, energetic body, mental body and spiritual body. These bodies are free of all concepts, but the ones you wish to associate them with. Again, you are locked within an idea. In our school Tai Shang is a manifestation of emptiness. We do not judge and discriminate others. How can an enlightened being that is of the source teach that? The Dao is everything...

Our teacher Tai Shang Lao Jun and our Hu Fa Shen are beyond discriminating concepts. What is done in any one session is done to activate the body and heal the body regardless of how one associates them, it's the final effect that matters.

You attribute my movements to Shaolin and so preclude them from being Taoist, but do you know the story of Shaolin kungfu?

I'm going to ask you to employ your logical reasoning here.

Damo was falsely attributed to the introduction of Yijin Jing and Xisui Jing and that's common knowledge now.

Here are some texts:

-------------------------------------------------------------

Traditionally Bodhidharma is credited as founder of the martial arts at the Shaolin Temple. However, martial arts historians have shown this legend stems from a 17th-century qigong manual known as the Yijin Jing.^[5]

The authenticity of the Yi Jin Jing has been discredited by some historians including Tang Hao, Xu Zhen and Ryuchi Matsuda. This argument is summarized by modern historian Lin Boyuan in his Zhongguo wushu shi:

The oldest available copy was published in 1827.^[7] The composition of the text itself has been dated to 1624.^[6] Even then, the association of Bodhidharma with martial arts only became widespread as a result of the 1904–1907 serialization of the novel The Travels of Lao Ts'an in Illustrated Fiction Magazine:^[8]Other scholars see an earlier connection between Da Mo and the Shaolin Monastery. Scholars generally accept the historicity of Da Mo (Bodhidharma) who arrived in China around 480. Da Mo (Bodhidharma) and his disciples are said to have lived a spot about a mile from the Shaolin Temple that is now a small nunnery. ^[10] In the 6th century, around 547, The Record of the Buddhist Monasteries says Da Mo visited the area near Mount Song.^[11]^[12] In 645 The Continuation of the Biographies of Eminent Monks describes him as being active in the Mount Song region.^[12]^[13] Around 710 Da Mo is identified specifically with the Shaolin Temple (Precious Record of Dharma's Transmission or Chuanfa Baoji) ^[12]^[14] and writes of his sitting facing a wall in meditation for many years. It also speaks of Huikes many trials in his efforts to receive instruction from Da Mo. In the 11th century a (1004) work embellishes Da Mo legends with great detail. A stele inscription at the Shaolin Monastery dated 728 reveals Da Mo residing on Mount Song.^[15] Another stele in 798 speaks of Huike seeking instruction from Da Mo. Another engraving dated 1209 depicts the barefoot saint holding a shoe according to the ancient legend of Da Mo. A plethora of 13th- and 14th-century steles feature Da Mo in Various roles. One 13th-century image shows him riding a fragile stalk across the Yangtze River.^[16] In 1125 a special temple was constructed in his honor at the Shaolin Monastery.^[17]

As for the "Yi Jin Jing" (Muscle Change Classic), a spurious text attributed to Bodhidharma and included in the legend of his transmitting martial arts at the temple, it was written in the Ming dynasty, in 1624, by the Daoist priest Zining of Mt. Tiantai, and falsely attributed to Bodhidharma. Forged prefaces, attributed to the Tang general Li Jing and the Southern Song general Niu Gao were written. They say that, after Bodhidharma faced the wall for nine years at Shaolin temple, he left behind an iron chest; when the monks opened this chest they found the two books "Xi Sui Jing" (Marrow Washing Classic) and "Yi Jin Jing" within. The first book was taken by his disciple Huike, and disappeared; as for the second, "the monks selfishly coveted it, practicing the skills therein, falling into heterodox ways, and losing the correct purpose of cultivating the Real. The Shaolin monks have made some fame for themselves through their fighting skill; this is all due to having obtained this manuscript". Based on this, Bodhidharma was claimed to be the ancestor of Shaolin martial arts. This manuscript is full of errors, absurdities and fantastic claims; it cannot be taken as a legitimate source.^[6]

One of the most recently invented and familiar of the Shaolin historical narratives is a story that claims that the Indian monk Bodhidharma, the supposed founder of Chinese Chan (Zen) Buddhism, introduced boxing into the monastery as a form of exercise around a.d. 525. This story first appeared in a popular novel, The Travels of Lao T’san, published as a series in a literary magazine in 1907. This story was quickly picked up by others and spread rapidly through publication in a popular contemporary boxing manual, Secrets of Shaolin Boxing Methods, and the first Chinese physical culture history published in 1919. As a result, it has enjoyed vast oral circulation and is one of the most “sacred” of the narratives shared within Chinese and Chinese-derived martial arts. That this story is clearly a twentieth-century invention is confirmed by writings going back at least 250 years earlier, which mention both Bodhidharma and martial arts but make no connection between the two.^[9]

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Damo was a patriarch of Buddhism, but he was not the inventor of Shaolin or Buddhist Kungfu, if it was so, we would find Shaolin Kungfu type of martial arts all over India and we would have Buddhist monks in all the Indian monasteries breaking bricks with hard qigong and leaping over walls, slapping water and striking sand. Yet where do we see it in India? Or are you saying that as a patriarch of Buddhism, Damo so loved the Chinese that he kept all the secrets from the Indian people and gave them to the Chinese first, hahah? Common. Let's employ some simple logic here and break out of concepts...

In ancient China any soldier and certainly any general needed to have martial skill. During Chinas many wars and conflicts many soldiers and generals took refuge in the Buddhist Shaolin monastery where they handed down their expertise to the monks in exchange for their protection. It was a place of safety. This is how the Shaolin monks inherited Taoist and Chinese martial arts skills throughout history. It was not the work of a peaceful Buddhist who came from India to teach them how to fight... or we could easily trace the art back to any other Indian patriarch before Damo and surely we would have similar Kungfu in all the other Indian monasteries.

Its simple. If Damo brought Kungfu from India, then we should be able to find it in India.... and every Indian monastery should have rock hard Buddhist martial arts beasts within their walls. Yet, can you find any Buddhist monk today or monastery that practices Yijin Jing or Xi Sui Jing, anywhere in India?.... It's only in China.... So, lets use some logic...

How come there are no Buddhist monks that spread Yijin Jing today, or ever?

How come it's only Bodhidharma, the first one to enter China to spread Buddhism?

These exercises and movements existed long before Buddhism set its foot in China.

It's easy to become trapped in concepts. This is Taoist, this is Buddhist, that is Christian and so on and so forth, but this only fortifies the conceptual prison of our minds and sustains discrimination while perpetuating the very dualistic (Taiji) thinking that we are trying to transcend. A mind like this can never enter Wuji where everything collapses into one : )

Food for thought...

Edited November 12, 2016 by effilang

effilang · November 12, 2016

Very cool. Thanks for answering the questions above. I think what Walker was asking, and I'm curious to know too, is what is the end goal of the practice. Can it lead to final awakening in this lifetime, liberation from samsara?

The end goal of our practice is "Kong". To be empty, but not void.

To be able to condense into matter and be visible at will or disperse into the Dao and be invisible and everywhere at the same time. We develop a lot of different skills along the way, but that is not our focus so I do not concentrate on it. I want people to focus on their humanity and helping others to wake up.

There is no "final" awakening. There is no such thing as a finale in Daoist cultivation.

Our cultivation reflects the infinity of the Dao and we will continue on ad infinitum.

The difference between varying states of conscious existence is dependent on our spiritual skill and power, our wisdom and our karma.

Liberation from Samsara as I've mentioned before depends on various factors.

Certainly we can get to a level whereby we can consciously disconnect from the Taiji current and CHOOSE when to come back in, if it is the case that we still have karma to neutralize with some soul and a natural birth and re-entry is necessary relative to the weight of the karma - and we can postpone this re-entry for as long as we wish while we continue to cultivate in Wuji, but karma is karma and it must be repaid. It is universal law, otherwise there is imbalance.

Usually after around 3-5 years of regular practice in Xiao Yao Pai we reach the level of Xiao Shen or a baby spirit.

At this point our Yang Shen is strong enough and imbued with awareness, that should we die, HFS can continue to guide us in Wuji. However, even if we advance to a high level in Wuji after this, if we have karma to pay, we will have to eventually voluntarily reincarnate so we can meet the souls we must pay back; if we owe a debt.

It has happened many times, that after a human reaches the point where they can disconnect from the cyclic Taiji current, that they have to come back in through a natural birth to clear some heavy karma. Yes, you can enjoy yourself first in Wuji, learn, study, guide others from your position as HFS to a celestial school, advance and so on, but eventually you must clear your karma and if it's heavy, then it necessitates a physical re-birth. If it's not so heavy, we can repay it by becoming a guide to the human to repay your debt. That's also an option. This way the new immortal does not have to leave the divine realm.

One of our new Dao Yu in UK who was very sensitive could already feel the amorphous vapor forming over his head, this is his Xiao Shen taking shape and condensing into the Yang Shen body. The more he practice the more it will condense until its features begin to resemble his own physical features.

He has some very good talent. He came with his family members to be initiated and they all actually had very good skill and sensitivity. It was really amazing for me to see a whole family with such a strong affinity for cultivation. They were all great : )

Edited November 12, 2016 by effilang

effilang · November 12, 2016

Very cool. Thanks for answering the questions above. I think what Walker was asking, and I'm curious to know too, is what is the end goal of the practice. Can it lead to final awakening in this lifetime, liberation from samsara?

One of the reasons why I don't often touch this topic is because in XYP, we do not run away to the mountain to practice. Rather, we enter society and help to use the information we acquire from spiritual practice to help elevate others, instead of just focusing on ourselves.

You can choose to do either, the choice is yours as I said before, but just like HFS helps us, we also help others.

We must be able to establish a natural harmony with our environment and nature. If you go one way it's too Yin, if you go the other way it's too Yang. The elements must be in balance. When we can harmonize our humanity with our divinity, then we can make much faster progress. One of the reasons for this is that the Gong De we accumulate through selfless deeds is a type of potential power. So if we have strong Gong De when we liangong (practice culitvation), our progress is catalyzed.

A holy person like Mother Theresa has very strong Gong De, but she cannot go higher than this. From charitable deeds all you can achieve is the state of the revered saint. Now, had she an authentic system of spiritual cultivation to practice, she could have manifested that Gong De into spiritual power.

So it is in our benefit to live in society and deal with our problem while we cultivate ourselves and help others, because this directly helps our practice : )

That is why we have three things we must focus on in XYP:

- Subtle energy cultivation (Xian Tian Shen Gong, XT Qigong, XT Jing Zuo)

This is for our physical body, our physical energy, our physical mind AND our non-physical spirit.

- Gong De (Selfless deeds and charity)

This is to accumulate potential power

- Wu (wisdom through experience, living life and interacting with other souls)

This is to help develop our understanding and expand our intellect.

We should try to develop all three in union.

Edited November 12, 2016 by effilang

grassmountiansage · November 12, 2016

Effilang,

You are so wrong that I dont know where to begin maybe you shoudlnt copy and paste things about a lineage unless you get it directly from the lineage itself.

So basically your calling shaolin a liar...Interesting

Seems you dont understand a lot. Kung fu was created to protect buddha's teachings.

Buddhabhadra, the founder of Shaolin was a wandering Buddhist monk from India who arrived in the Empire of Northern Wei around A.D. 464.(also called Fotuo) was a dhyana master who came to China from India in 464 AD in order to spread Buddhist teachings. He preached there for several decades before the Emperor Xiaowen ordered the building of the Shaolin Monastery on Mount Song, in what is now Henan Province, and made Batuo its first abbot. Sources from the period are rare, but the early monastery appears to have functioned as a center for translating Buddhist texts into Chinese. Under Batuo’s leadership, the monks followed the Hinayana school of Buddhism. Since the Hinayana path was notoriously hard to follow even for monks, the monastery remained relatively small. It was only with the coming of Bodhidharma, another Indian monk, that Hinayana was discarded and replaced with Chan (Zen) Buddhism, which the Shaolin monks follow to this day.

"In Shaolin temple Ba Tuo , proclaimed the Buddhism Hinayana of the "Buddhism of the small vehicle" also known in chinese as Xiao Cheng , which was a premature part of the India Buddhism , which supported solitude . That narrow and strict form of Buddhism had many rules (250 for men , 500 for women) and it was non-achievable for most people , even for monks . As a result , Ba Tuo had little apostles .There where many worshippers , who came to him from all places in the world seeking Hinagiana Buddhism . Among them , Hui Kuang and Seng Chou were the best of Ba Tuo's apostles. Honored BaTuo's two gifted and renowned monks , were former generals and were the first ones to bring martial arts in the temple . According to a legend , the monk Hui Kuang could kick 500 times at the speed of a flying arrow and monk Chu had separated two tigers that were fighting , with his staff , and chased them away . These two monks established martial arts in the temple and that is how Shaolin warriors tradition began."

Let me further correct you on a few things

Temples back then were built on hills so they could not be raided...so they offered protection.

"Kung Fu's original purpose was to protect Buddha's teachings. Now what the 28th Indian patriarch Bodhidharma (who later became the 1st chinese patriarch) taught the shaolin monks one complete nata and 2 pratimas of the Bodhisattva Vajramukti, namely the nata of Buddhist Lion Play School and 2 of its pratimas(shorter sequences). The nata was called Astadasavijaya which means 18 Subduings. This practice was absorbed by the chinese and was called the Shiba Luohan Shou or the 18 hand movements of the immortals. The Shiba Luohan Shou was the most important buddhist nata/xing introduced into china. Which became knows as the Shaolin Szu school of martial arts or Quan Fa. Which translated into the 18 Buddha boxing methods. The 2 shorter pratimas or forms taught in this were the Asthimajja Parisuddi- which is a buddhist movement and respiratory yoga for tissue regeneration, catharsis, and karmic recognition. In chinese this became known as the Xisuijing. The second pratima was the Snavasjala Nidana Vijnpti which in chinese is called the Yijinjing which is a type of isometric exercises and meditations which builds vitlatiy and can change the health from poor to good. So basically meaning that the xisuijing and the yijinjing were 2 small energy practices of the larger vajramukti which was termed Quanfa in chinese and this spread during the tang dynasty(600-900A.D.) This gave birth to the 18 Luohan monk forms. So you can see that kung fu became a very evloved method of internal cultivation. Also what the monks were doing is that they were taking other forms of high level alchemy and turning them into internal kung fu."

Bodhidharma chose 18 out of the 500 followers of buddha to honor called them the 18 lohans. He chose to have 18 close disciples. This tradition continued at shaolin and after the burning of shaolin the 18 lohan started the white lotus soceity later becoming the triads that still exist today.

But triad meant heaven man and earth because they believed that the only way to unite heaven and earth is thru man aka the middle path aka the heart so it is very buddhist in nature.

Sorry man I actually know what im talking about lol..oh and STOP INSULTING A VALID SECT LKE SHAOLIN!!!

Edited November 12, 2016 by grassmountiansage

effilang · November 12, 2016

Sorry can't say any more Effilang has obviously decided to remove my too hot to handle posts. Leave it to you guys to show him the way!

Post 107 quotes part of my post but it no longer is visible.

Yes it has been removed as it was destructive and making conclusions about our school without any verifiable proof. You're welcome to make another thread and continue the discussion there, but not here : )

Best wishes.

Edited November 12, 2016 by effilang

effilang · November 12, 2016

So to battle my copy and paste you also copy and paste? - Good one, hehe

I think that there is a reason why Bodhidharma's attribution to Yinjing Jing and Xi Sui Jing is called a "legend"... Because according to a legend, according to a legend, according to a legend so and so happened : )

If the 28th Patriarch of Buddhism had such amazing gongfu skills, then how about his master and how about the following patriarchs to whom he transmitted his teachings? Where is their representation of this "martial" skill?

What about Hui Kom, Dao Xin, Hui Neng and so on, are they proficient in gongfu also based on "Buddhist" teachings? If all the secrets were transmitted from Buddhism, then where is also their gongfu prowess?

Out of all the Patriarchs, is Bodhidharma the only one who was adept at gongfu? How come?

How is it possible, what of before and after him?

Where are his practising brothers in gongfu, or did he practice with his shadow only to become such a master?

Did Bodhidharma learn gongfu from his teacher Prajnatara? Where are the records?

Is he even from the lineage of Sakyamuni? Where are the records? How can we prove it TODAY?!!!

Let's not forget that early Theravadin and Mahayana Buddhism are non-violent religions and don't promote the concept of martial skill and power. It is basic Vinaya....Zen on the other hand is something different and already has strong Daoist influences.

If gongfu was created to protect the Buddha's teachings, where are the accounts of these martial monks in Theravada Buddhism? Where are their martial monks, protectors of Skayamuni's teachings in India and Thailand today? Where can I go to see them? Was Bodhidharma so fond of the Chinese that he only wanted to protect Buddhism in China?

Please use your simple logic instead of following something that someone else wrote, who is following something that someone else wrote. Forget the past. What can you prove TODAY! Right now, in this time of our living breath. That's the key.

Shaolin was not the only temple whose inhabitants were "smart" enough to go high up Songshan and build. In fact the grotto-heavens were sacred locations long before any sort of Buddhist temples were established there, and this is a Daoist notion.

What of all the other Buddhist temples around Shaolin?

Did they also inherit gongfu and if they didn't, why not?

Did you know that a lot of the monks who joined the Shaolin temple were just normal members of society and already had martial skills under their belt before entering...even before Bodhidharma arrived in China.... surely they shared some of their knowledge with the weakly monks...

Did you know of all the martial artists who stayed at the Shaolin monastery that were never ordained?

If you search through ancient Confucian history you will come across accounts of Buddhist monks who were drafted into armies and whom participated in military wars as early as 300 years after the death of Damo and even before... Trust me, it was not only to "protect" the Buddhas teachings..... Serving the emperor came with many valuable rewards. The type that would easily allow a monastery to quickly rise above all others and maintain the emperor's favour.

Many Buddhist temples suffered due wars, political and religious interests. Why was only one temple given the means to protect itself and all other's neglected?

How come White Horse Temple, the first official Buddhist temple in China never inherited gongfu from Damo?

What's so special about the monks of Shaolin that only they were granted this?

Why didn't any of the other fighting monks from other temples who safeguarded Buddhism also learn from Damo?

What about Zhongyue temple that was also on Songshan?

Boddhidarma didn't teach them gongfu also so they can protect themselves?

Why did he discriminate them?

Why did Shaolin monks fight for the emperor but the earlier established Zhongyue monks did not?

Many of the monks who refused to fight were executed...

Maybe the Shaolin monks picked up some tricks from the military during their interactions?

Where are the accounts of the amazing fighting monks and protectors of the Buddha's teachings who battled against the Hun and the Muslim invasions in their own countries? Did they use their gongfu then? History tells a very different story. Thousands were slaughtered and 100s of temples were destroyed, and the peaceful silent sitting monks were murdered in cold blood.

Many of the temples were already militarised way before Damo arrived...

Why do some light themselves on fire while others fight and which one is the truth teaching of Buddha?

Up till today the Buddhists sects still can't decide among themselves who has the true word of the Buddha and it's not very different in Taoism.

It's always easy to copy and paste, but what about asking the real questions and questioning these "legends"?

Because lets face it, all this is just legend... None of it is verified.

How can we prove it today? What's the method?

I prefer to ask and think about it than follow blindly.

Finally, this thread is not about Shaolin, it is about Xiao Yao Pai, so I'd like to kindly ask you to continue the discussion elsewhere and keep the thread on topic and constructive or to please stop posting. Feel free to copy my posts if you wish to lead a discussion of them somewhere else.

I probably don't have to remind you, but you always have the option to create your own thread and discuss these things there in detail without derailing our schools thread here.

I think this will guarantee that the people who come here to learn about XYP will have relevant information to look forward to in the area of their interest; such that reflects the title on this thread; and not the disciplines of other schools, their traditions or their beliefs.

Best wishes.

Edited November 12, 2016 by effilang

effilang · November 12, 2016

Effilang you are not moral or ethical, call yourself a spiritual man?

All you want is every one to see what you want them to see and nothing else.

Sounds like the usual politics we see in government.

You are disabling people being able to contradict you, you are assuming ultimate power of a dictator. Whatever is teaching you is not a pure spirit.

Hope people see this before you erase it.

Thank your for you opinion, Flowing Hands.

Farewell... yet again..

Edited November 12, 2016 by effilang

effilang · November 12, 2016

So as in relation to skill or ability does this mean the spirit immortal can be used for other things as well?

Hi grassmountainsage.

"Use" them wouldn't really be the right way to say it. You can't use Hu Fa Shen. They are an independent conscious being. You can certainly feel free to ask them though. A request would be a more appropriate way to term it.

Even though they act as our friend, protector and mentor, they are still Xian Shen, so we should show some basic respect.

So if you want to learn something in particular from your HFS, you can ask. Usually I ask some silly scientific questions and on a few other occasions, I've asked for help with more mundane daily things, like which interview to reject for a job and which one to wait for, which city to move to, and on some other occasions a Dao Bum here humbly asked for some form of proof, so he sent me test questions about the burial location of his deceased grandparents; so I obliged and HFS helped with the location. Things like that.

The connection to HFS develops just like with any other relationship.

Some of the new Dao Yu texted me yesterday after they had a flight to Rome to meet their sister, saying how they never get bored now, because they can always just communicate with HFS.

I don't offer confirmations like that anymore, but sometimes if the person is genuine I can work with Tai Shang and my HFS to "move" someone in another location, so they can have a personal experience. This is a new skill which I recently cultivated.

Again, I prefer for people to make the leap themselves and just come and verify it of their own accord during an initiation. Some people travel from half way across the world, some even came from Peru to the UK this year to confirm it, so why should it be so easy for others? Everyone must make a little effort.

Another lady called me on the day of the initiation, saying she is terribly ill, can't move and has been throwing up all morning. I just gave her some words of inspiration and she found the courage to make it even though she arrived much later. She still got initiated, received HFS and had an amazing weekend.

What stops it from becoming violent?

The quality of the Xian Shen. They are at a very high level of wisdom and consciousness, so we've never had a record of anything like that. Not once since we became public in 1970 and not from anyone of our 140,000+ practitioners. Hu Fa Shen always works to your highest benefit. They are on duty by Tai Shang Lao Jun.

Furthermore every Hu Fa Shen must first be authorised by Tai Shang before they can guide anyone under the celestial branch of our school. So you could say they also go through an application and interview to apply for the position. Then they must follow the curriculum of our school. Its similar to a physical brick and mortar educational institution and the Xian have their posts and responsibilities.

Our HFS have already refined their negative personality traits and express themselves as a unified being directly from emptiness, so their Mind, Speech, Heart and Action are collapsed into one expression and they are governed by the pre-heavenly virtues, not the acquired post-heavenly hindrances.

Does one develop the ability to heal others, internal power, some type of spiritual power and so forth?

Yes of course, naturally. We practise spiritual cultivation, so all this manifests through practice.

We develop the 6 Transportations of Shen as well as the 8 Supernatural Powers. In addition to that we learn additional skills specific to our school. I can think of around 7 others off the top of my head, but in total they are 26 and this does not include the skills you will learn from other immortals with which you choose to interact and learn from. So in total that's 40.

I cannot go into too much detail about many of the additional 26 skills, but I can speak of the 8 + 6 as they develop in every individual who cultivates authentic spiritual methods, regardless of their tradition.

The 6 Skills of the Shen are:

1. You can see and understand the Present without discrimination.

2. You can see and understand the Past and the Future without discrimination.

3. You can know a person's thoughts.

4. You can read a person's karma and destinty, both the given destinty and the projection of the acquired destiny.

5. You can hear the spiritual realm and physical realm.

6. You can explore the universe.

The 8 Xian Skills are:

1. You can become light, levitate and use soul projection.

2. You can become heavy.

3. You can shrink the spirit body to an infinite size and observe minute processes.

4. You can expand the spirit body to an infinite size and observe grand processes.

5. You can control the 5 elements and create physical matter.

6. You can manifest and enjoy your wishes.

7. You can manifest any energetic form.

8. You can control animate and inanimate objects.

A few of those which are specific to our school are:

1. The ability to communicate with any divine being.

2. The ability to repel evil spirits within a huge radius.

3. The ability to clear a space of negative energy and purify it.

4. The ability to consecrate an altar or place and have a Xian guard it.

5. The ability to ascertain if there is "magic" or "power" in a place or object.

etc.

Most of these skills are developed gradually, because they come as our spirit is strengthened and they become a part of our being, but It's not a snap of the fingers reaction. Others are granted as our awareness and Gong De grows. These are like gifts that are bestowed upon us as members of our school, but they too must also be earned. Sometimes a skill is granted to test our character, other times it is taken away to trigger the very same reaction.

To try and explain this, think of a general in an army.

His uniform and status allows him a certain authority ie: to command the army, give orders and even launch small controlled tactical nukes. His position bestows him a lot of power, but if he is demoted or losses his post he also losses those privileges.

These types of skills are similar to some of those granted to us as our wisdom and awareness develops, but if we leave the school or act unvirtuously, they can be stripped.

On the other hand, the general has another set of personal skills which cannot be taken away. Those are the ones he cultivates through his own effort ie: his personal martial ability, his gun handling ability, his skills in tactics and strategy, navigation and so on and so forth. These skills no matter whether he remains a general or not are always there : )

I hope that helps to clarify their differences.

- In terms of healing others, we advise our practitioners not to do it until they open the MCO in our system, but this requires the instruction of Jin Jia Shen who appears when the Ren and Du mei are ready to be connected in the way of our school, which is very different from how the Ren and Du are connected and flow in other systems. This allows us to recharge our energy quickly so we can more rapidly transform and apply our energy to another human through Wai Qi Liao Fa safely and without exhausting our own energy reserves. Otherwise the energy we cultivate is too fine to use on a typical Hun Shen (human spirit), so in our school we must do some work to learn how to step the energy down so that it does not shock another persons spirit. We have to tune it down from Wuji to Taiji so we can apply it in the physical dimension safely, if that makes sense, otherwise it can overwhelm another persons spirit.

What does long term and short term practice get you?

Long Term: Yang Shen Spiritual Immortality and Kong

Short Term: Clarity, Peace, Lack of Prejudice, Vitality, Alleviation of Physical ailments, basic spiritual skills.

Can this be done with taichi? Does it enhance taichi or my other practices?

Yes it is fine. Most people who study Taiji that become initiated, usually report an enhanced practice. Stronger energy, rooting, a better perception and sensitivity to energy and correction from Hu Fa Shen during practice for postural alignment etc.

At the beginning it is fine to continue to practice whatever you wish on the side, but eventually our practice becomes quite specific so at some point a practitioner will have to step in with both feet if they want to fulfil the more advanced steps in our spiritual curriculum.

Between the "beginning" and "eventually" is a time frame that will vary depending on our talents and consistency of practice. For some it can be 5 years for others 10.

What if one no longer wants to do Xiao Yao Pai is there a un-initiation?

I think I might have answered this one before. One need only address Tai Shang directly and make a formal request and the apprenticeship will be dissolved. No strings attached.

Now if your a pai then you should have some rare herbal tonics and teas is this correct?

It's not part of our primary curriculum, but the Dao Yu can request lessons on the topic from their HFS or contact a specialised HFS whom excels in these skills. It's fine.

Does the training develop a strong wei field?

Yes, quite, but the expansion is mostly in the spiritual field, which can extend quite a lot. I can usually feel my master in a nearby location even if I can't see him. His spiritual energy would rush up my body like a reverse waterfall.

This was my sensation in the beginning, now I do not feel it so anymore as I've adapted to the frequency of our school. So usually now, I just feel an initial connection if I come in contact with their aura, but after that there is no sensation anymore, because I've adapted to it through my own practice and absorbing divine energy during Xian Tian Dao Yin Shu.

Are there levels to this system and if so how many?

5 (8)

0: Dao Yu (道友)

1: Dao Shi (道仕)

2: Dao Zhang (道张) - 2a, 2b, 2c.

3. Dao Zun (道尊)

4. Dao Shi (道师)

Also do you guys have a lineage chart?

No we don't. We have two reasons for this in our tradition.

1. We are not a Houtian system, so we don't follow a human master. In Xiantian we learn from Hu Fa Shen.

- So there's no way to show a chart with an immortals name, because It can't be verified by the observer in a way that can allow them to authenticate or determine the quality of the school. For that we have initiation, so they can feel the immortal directly as a form of proof.

2. A lineage chart is not proof of anything. It's just something to help ease the mind of the inquirer.

- So to provide that assurance, we act as a teacher of the martial arts would in ancient times. We say fight me. If you can beat me, then I can't teach you anything, but If I can beat you then you can learn something from me. To us this is embodied in our initiation. So anyone who is curious about whether what we say is true or false, can just come and test it then they can decide based on that. No bullshit, no gimmicks, no "trust me" this lineage chart is legit. We focus on what we can prove in the present, not what was in the past. We're trying to move forward not back right? So each person must employ the attitude of a scientist and seek proof when they decide to join XYP. We don't entertain the mind of a follower or encourage faith and we don't believe in what we can't experience.

We have to shift from Philosophy (Theory) to Action (Experience) and then to produce Results (Skill).

So again, in our tradition, we use the initiation to provide immediate experience and results so that there is no ambiguity of any sort.

Again, here we differ quite a bit from many schools, but this is generally due to us being Xiantian and not Houtian.

Here's my question what are you guys cultivating I know you train to reach yang shen but what do you call it in your system.

We also call it Yang Shen. First Xiao Shen, then Yang Shen as the 3 Hun and 7 Po fuse deeper together to form the unified conscious immortal being.

Best wishes.

PS: While I was writing this one of our members who came from Belgium that was initiated last weekend just texted me saying she had an amazing experience and she's able to channel HFS directly through her voice to have conversations. She said how is it possible that we can develop such spiritual skills so early on. She couldn't believe it lol - I'm very happy for her : )

PPS: She comes from a previous tradition of Buddhism and received Shaktipath in India from her former Master.

Edited November 13, 2016 by effilang

grassmountiansage · November 13, 2016

So to battle my copy and paste you also copy and paste? - Good one, hehe

I think that there is a reason why Bodhidharma's attribution to Yinjing Jing and Xi Sui Jing is called a "legend"... Because according to a legend, according to a legend, according to a legend so and so happened : )

If the 28th Patriarch of Buddhism had such amazing gongfu skills, then how about his master and how about the following patriarchs to whom he transmitted his teachings? Where is their representation of this "martial" skill?

What about Hui Kom, Dao Xin, Hui Neng and so on, are they proficient in gongfu also based on "Buddhist" teachings? If all the secrets were transmitted from Buddhism, then where is also their gongfu prowess?

Out of all the Patriarchs, is Bodhidharma the only one who was adept at gongfu? How come?

How is it possible, what of before and after him?

Where are his practising brothers in gongfu, or did he practice with his shadow only to become such a master?

Did Bodhidharma learn gongfu from his teacher Prajnatara? Where are the records?

Is he even from the lineage of Sakyamuni? Where are the records? How can we prove it TODAY?!!!

Let's not forget that early Theravadin and Mahayana Buddhism are non-violent religions and don't promote the concept of martial skill and power. It is basic Vinaya....Zen on the other hand is something different and already has strong Daoist influences.

If gongfu was created to protect the Buddha's teachings, where are the accounts of these martial monks in Theravada Buddhism? Where are their martial monks, protectors of Skayamuni's teachings in India and Thailand today? Where can I go to see them? Was Bodhidharma so fond of the Chinese that he only wanted to protect Buddhism in China?

Please use your simple logic instead of following something that someone else wrote, who is following something that someone else wrote. Forget the past. What can you prove TODAY! Right now, in this time of our living breath. That's the key.

Shaolin was not the only temple whose inhabitants were "smart" enough to go high up Songshan and build. In fact the grotto-heavens were sacred locations long before any sort of Buddhist temples were established there, and this is a Daoist notion.

What of all the other Buddhist temples around Shaolin?

Did they also inherit gongfu and if they didn't, why not?

Did you know that a lot of the monks who joined the Shaolin temple were just normal members of society and already had martial skills under their belt before entering...even before Bodhidharma arrived in China.... surely they shared some of their knowledge with the weakly monks...

Did you know of all the martial artists who stayed at the Shaolin monastery that were never ordained?

If you search through ancient Confucian history you will come across accounts of Buddhist monks who were drafted into armies and whom participated in military wars as early as 300 years after the death of Damo and even before... Trust me, it was not only to "protect" the Buddhas teachings..... Serving the emperor came with many valuable rewards. The type that would easily allow a monastery to quickly rise above all others and maintain the emperor's favour.

Many Buddhist temples suffered due wars, political and religious interests. Why was only one temple given the means to protect itself and all other's neglected?

How come White Horse Temple, the first official Buddhist temple in China never inherited gongfu from Damo?

What's so special about the monks of Shaolin that only they were granted this?

Why didn't any of the other fighting monks from other temples who safeguarded Buddhism also learn from Damo?

What about Zhongyue temple that was also on Songshan?

Boddhidarma didn't teach them gongfu also so they can protect themselves?

Why did he discriminate them?

Why did Shaolin monks fight for the emperor but the earlier established Zhongyue monks did not?

Many of the monks who refused to fight were executed...

Maybe the Shaolin monks picked up some tricks from the military during their interactions?

Where are the accounts of the amazing fighting monks and protectors of the Buddha's teachings who battled against the Hun and the Muslim invasions in their own countries? Did they use their gongfu then? History tells a very different story. Thousands were slaughtered and 100s of temples were destroyed, and the peaceful silent sitting monks were murdered in cold blood.

Many of the temples were already militarised way before Damo arrived...

Why do some light themselves on fire while others fight and which one is the truth teaching of Buddha?

Up till today the Buddhists sects still can't decide among themselves who has the true word of the Buddha and it's not very different in Taoism.

It's always easy to copy and paste, but what about asking the real questions and questioning these "legends"?

Because lets face it, all this is just legend... None of it is verified.

How can we prove it today? What's the method?

I prefer to ask and think about it than follow blindly.

Finally, this thread is not about Shaolin, it is about Xiao Yao Pai, so I'd like to kindly ask you to continue the discussion elsewhere and keep the thread on topic and constructive or to please stop posting. Feel free to copy my posts if you wish to lead a discussion of them somewhere else.

I probably don't have to remind you, but you always have the option to create your own thread and discuss these things there in detail without derailing our schools thread here.

I think this will guarantee that the people who come here to learn about XYP will have relevant information to look forward to in the area of their interest; such that reflects the title on this thread; and not the disciplines of other schools, their traditions or their beliefs.

Best wishes.

Your asking alot of questions about shaolin...let me tell you this sil lum pai is resepected all over china and for good reason it is very powerful alchemy...and im not talking about the stuff easily found on the internet.

but if you dont know you dont know but it seems you need more education on that.

Walker · November 13, 2016

@ Effi,

Thanks for your thoughtful, detail response. Till now I've been mystified as to why what seemed like run of the mill zifagong needed to be called a "pai" and beefed up with all sorts of ontological teachings and mystery. To put it plainly, seemed a bit like... marketing (if you'll pardon my French).

Part of the reason I asked you my questions is that not long ago in China I encountered a gentleman (I say that word with a cough) who makes claims that are extremely similar to Xiao Yao Pai's. Instead of the word hufa he uses the word tianshi (天师, "heavenly teacher"). His claim is that after a brief ritual in which disciples are connected to Tai Shang Lao Jun, taught a mudra, and taught a few words to "ask for assistance," then a personally-assigned immortal tianshi will visit and trigger zifagong--which of course he did not like to call zifagong--in order to help the disciple cultivate. I observed this group as up close and personally as one could without actually living with them (they did ask me to move in), and realized within three months that they were a cult through and through. They demand huge sums of money from their students and the people they treat in their clinic; offer no tangible results whatsoever even to those involved for years both as students and patients; and they go to lengths to strip their students of freedom of speech, thought, association, and movement. After I bid them farewell they threatened to hire goons to beat me up a couple of times; I never did get beat up, so I guess the goons-for-hire got cold feet when they finally realized who I am :ninja: That or the "master" was too cheap to pay for hoodlums. The bright side is that this group is small and unlikely to attract too many new members before the aged leader kicks the bucket and gets whatever is waiting for him on the other side.

From the looks of things, some on this thread may read what I just wrote and interpret it as in some way being an indictment of you and XYP. It is not. There is no subtext in my sharing what I just did--I'm just explaining why I've been a persistent questioner. Anyway, like you say, words are just words, but still, I'm glad you took the time to write your reply. I'm more than happy to confess that I'm in no place to make any judgments about your school. But having read your explanations, my hunch is that regardless of the similarities between some of the statements XYP makes and the ones the old sociopath in Beijing makes, you guys are cut from a completely different cloth. You've satisfied my curiosity... I appreciate it.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Walker

effilang · November 13, 2016

@ Walker

What a funny experience lol.

I'm glad you didn't get beaten up, but at the same time I understand why he would make such a threat; the PRC doesn't take kindly to stuff like that... so it makes sense he would have tried to keep you in his deceitful circle and prevent himself from being exposed. I can't imagine he continued after that with such a risk looming over him, but who knows...

The truth is that Xian Tian Dao Yin Shu is considered by many to be nothing more than a legend, but none the less a legend people know of.

Our schools roots go back to the patron saint of the Dao; Huangdi, who established Xiao Yao Guan in Kong Tong Shan, and his master; the hermit Guangzhengzi, from whom he inherited our schools art; Xian Tian Dao Yin Shu. The temple is over 5000 years old now and you can still go and visit Xiao Yao Guan today. It is commonly referred to as Dao Guan, the first temple of China.

The warrior goddess Jiu Tian Xuan Nu, who guided Huangdi during the battle of Zhuolu, is a Xian in our school and I often practice with her.

To anyone else, who wants more proof, we have also been part of the Zhengyi Dao branch for a very long time, albeit no longer on paper as we chose to avoid binding, umbrella "political" affiliations after we came out of seclusion in the 70s - the sort of affiliations, that would grant power to others over us and prevent us from having absolute authority on matters of our school, how we share our art and whom we share it with.

We believe strongly that Xian Tian Dao Yin Shu is something to be shared with the whole world and not limited to the borders of any one geographical region, a people or a race.

The priests of Zhengyi in Longhu Shan know us. Wudang Pai is also acquainted with us. In addition to all this, you can also visit Bai Yun Guan (White Cloud Temple) in Beijing. You can ask the officials there to see the list of China's ancient schools as affirmed by the Chinese Daoist Association. Xiao Yao Pai is in 33rd place on the list.

We currently even have initiated priests in Tian Hou Gong in Nanjing, China; who have inherited our school's art; Xian Tian Dao Yin Shu, and many other temples, which I can't mentioned for political reasons. (I have a picture of the initiation).

I am certain that there are many other spiritual schools of Daoism that have still not opened their doors and continue to transmit their art in private, as did the majorty of the ancient schools prior to Zhang Daoling's reforms.

Daoist schools in olden days were quite small (1 - 10 ppl) and masters of the arts would usually pass down their teachings only to immediate family, but in times of continuously recurring religious, political and cultural conflicts, many schools were threatened, so for most of these old Pai the choice to remain obscure and away from the public eye, was simply a matter of safety - and a way to protect those closest to them, while they could continue to cultivate their art in peace. However, exceptions in transmission of these arts was occasionally privileged to ministers of the court and royalty, which in turn granted needed protection and immunity from persecution.

To illustrate the level of secrecy that surrounded many of these old schools, it's interesting to note that people who studied under the same master, often could pass each other on the street and not know who they were or that they were brothers or sisters of the Dao under the same master.

So when we look at any of the old spiritual schools that existed before the Zhang Daoling and Celestial Masters era, it's quite difficult to trace anything. So as a form of proof, our school organizes an initiation to demonstrate the authenticity of our lineage and dispel any doubts. I honestly would not respect anyone who did not have doubts, because that already hints to me that they have the mind of a blind follower, which is not representative of the nature of a genuine Daoist - which is more akin to a scientist that seeks to explore, discover, test and understand the universe in order to elevate his being and produce results that can aid him in bettering his physical and spiritual life.

If we look at any of the ancient Daoists, you can see that they worked to create harmony with their physical life and not run away from it and go and hide in a monastery. That's why today we have Feng Shui, Acupuncture, Physiognomy, Agriculture, Cloth Making, Mathematics, Astronomy, Weapon Building, Animal Taming, Herbology, Qigong, Martial Arts etc. - All these are attempts to make life more enjoyable and to find harmony in the living of life. Physical life must be in harmony with Spiritual life, so that we can pierce into the depth of the Dao through the midpoint of Yin and Yang, whence the emptiness of Wuji can be accessed. So just as much as there is physical extremism like asceticism, there is also spiritual extremism. So we have to be careful not to stray, so that we can flow with the current of existence and not against it : )

I do not have any other form of proof that is more substantial that that of one's own personal sense based experience and I truly believe than anyone who favors theory, philosophy and text over actual experiences and results is in some serious fort-knox-level-lock-down denial, and I'll go as far as to say afraid of being proven wrong. That's why a few people here will love to sit and text me and criticize me, but when I openly invite them to come and test us, all I hear is the crickets in the background....

Most schools cannot bear their heart raw like we can and then hand the stake to the doubters, because few can demonstrate the results even after a life time of supposed cultivation, but they are more than happy to tell you to practice for 10 years and pay exorbitant fees. People want proof NOW. Not in 10 years not in 20 years.

After all, what sort of a master cannot demonstrate his skill?

Maybe one day when you have the opportunity you can come to verify our claim at an initiation. Then you can close this chapter in your book of well founded curiosity and doubt and open up a brand new one. Until that day comes, if ever it does, I will do my best to answer your questions here.

Thank you for sharing your story, Walker.

Best wishes.

Edited November 13, 2016 by effilang

SeekerOfHealing · November 13, 2016

I do not understand some people tho about showing skills? You want some darth vader type skills ? or putting pigeons out of your pocket? That's means you have problems within yourself. The true skill is to create health, peace and happiness in our society, family and in relationships. You want shooting flames out your eyes but at the same time you can not come in terms with your own family - it's useless.

Spiritual school should create harmony in the world and better outcomes, clear mind, inspire and create better ideas, making successful moves. Domain of supernatural skills can be useful is they are related to those things not to stomp on another head.

Having peaceful mind-heart, compassion and light tranquility inside is more then enough for most people. If you looking for some kind of skilling to enhance your feeling about yourself that means you just lacking those qualities in the heart.

effilang · November 13, 2016

I do not understand some people tho about showing skills? You want some darth vader type skills ? or putting pigeons out of your pocket? That's means you have problems within yourself. The true skill is to create health, peace and happiness in our society, family and in relationships. You want shooting flames out your eyes but at the same time you can not come in terms with your own family - it's useless. Spiritual school should create harmony in the world and better outcomes, clear mind, inspire and create better ideas, making successful moves. Domain of supernatural skills can be useful is they are related to those things not to stomp on another head. Having peaceful mind-heart, compassion and light tranquility inside is more then enough for most people. If you looking for some kind of skilling to enhance your feeling about yourself that means you just lacking those qualities in the heart.

You would make a very good Dao Yu in our school

These are the sort of founding qualities we look for at the heart of each candidate.

Thank you for understanding and good luck in your practice!

grassmountiansage · November 13, 2016

Hi grassmountainsage.

"Use" them wouldn't really be the right way to say it. You can't use Hu Fa Shen. They are an independent conscious being. You can certainly feel free to ask them though. A request would be a more appropriate way to term it.

Even though they act as our friend, protector and mentor, they are still Xian Shen, so we should show some basic respect.

So if you want to learn something in particular from your HFS, you can ask. Usually I ask some silly scientific questions and on a few other occasions, I've asked for help with more mundane daily things, like which interview to reject for a job and which one to wait for, which city to move to, and on some other occasions a Dao Bum here humbly asked for some form of proof, so he sent me test questions about the burial location of his deceased grandparents; so I obliged and HFS helped with the location. Things like that.

The connection to HFS develops just like with any other relationship.

Some of the new Dao Yu texted me yesterday after they had a flight to Rome to meet their sister, saying how they never get bored now, because they can always just communicate with HFS.

I don't offer confirmations like that anymore, but sometimes if the person is genuine I can work with Tai Shang and my HFS to "move" someone in another location, so they can have a personal experience. This is a new skill which I recently cultivated.

Again, I prefer for people to make the leap themselves and just come and verify it of their own accord during an initiation. Some people travel from half way across the world, some even came from Peru to the UK this year to confirm it, so why should it be so easy for others? Everyone must make a little effort.

Another lady called me on the day of the initiation, saying she is terribly ill, can't move and has been throwing up all morning. I just gave her some words of inspiration and she found the courage to make it even though she arrived much later. She still got initiated, received HFS and had an amazing weekend.

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What stops it from becoming violent?

The quality of the Xian Shen. They are at a very high level of wisdom and consciousness, so we've never had a record of anything like that. Not once since we became public in 1970 and not from anyone of our 140,000+ practitioners. Hu Fa Shen always works to your highest benefit. They are on duty by Tai Shang Lao Jun.

Furthermore every Hu Fa Shen must first be authorised by Tai Shang before they can guide anyone under the celestial branch of our school. So you could say they also go through an application and interview to apply for the position. Then they must follow the curriculum of our school. Its similar to a physical brick and mortar educational institution and the Xian have their posts and responsibilities.

Our HFS have already refined their negative personality traits and express themselves as a unified being directly from emptiness, so their Mind, Speech, Heart and Action are collapsed into one expression and they are governed by the pre-heavenly virtues, not the acquired post-heavenly hindrances.

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Does one develop the ability to heal others, internal power, some type of spiritual power and so forth?

Yes of course, naturally. We practise spiritual cultivation, so all this manifests through practice.

We develop the 6 Transportations of Shen as well as the 8 Supernatural Powers. In addition to that we learn additional skills specific to our school. I can think of around 7 others off the top of my head, but in total they are 26 and this does not include the skills you will learn from other immortals with which you choose to interact and learn from. So in total that's 40.

I cannot go into too much detail about many of the additional 26 skills, but I can speak of the 8 + 6 as they develop in every individual who cultivates authentic spiritual methods, regardless of their tradition.

The 6 Skills of the Shen are:

1. You can see and understand the Present without discrimination.

2. You can see and understand the Past and the Future without discrimination.

3. You can know a person's thoughts.

4. You can read a person's karma and destinty, both the given destinty and the projection of the acquired destiny.

5. You can hear the spiritual realm and physical realm.

6. You can explore the universe.

The 8 Xian Skills are:

1. You can become light, levitate and use soul projection.

2. You can become heavy.

3. You can shrink the spirit body to an infinite size and observe minute processes.

4. You can expand the spirit body to an infinite size and observe grand processes.

5. You can control the 5 elements and create physical matter.

6. You can manifest and enjoy your wishes.

7. You can manifest any energetic form.

8. You can control animate and inanimate objects.

A few of those which are specific to our school are:

1. The ability to communicate with any divine being.

2. The ability to repel evil spirits within a huge radius.

3. The ability to clear a space of negative energy and purify it.

4. The ability to consecrate an altar or place and have a Xian guard it.

5. The ability to ascertain if there is "magic" or "power" in a place or object.

etc.

Most of these skills are developed gradually, because they come as our spirit is strengthened and they become a part of our being, but It's not a snap of the fingers reaction. Others are granted as our awareness and Gong De grows. These are like gifts that are bestowed upon us as members of our school, but they too must also be earned. Sometimes a skill is granted to test our character, other times it is taken away to trigger the very same reaction.

To try and explain this, think of a general in an army.

His uniform and status allows him a certain authority ie: to command the army, give orders and even launch small controlled tactical nukes. His position bestows him a lot of power, but if he is demoted or losses his post he also losses those privileges.

These types of skills are similar to some of those granted to us as our wisdom and awareness develops, but if we leave the school or act unvirtuously, they can be stripped.

On the other hand, the general has another set of personal skills which cannot be taken away. Those are the ones he cultivates through his own effort ie: his personal martial ability, his gun handling ability, his skills in tactics and strategy, navigation and so on and so forth. These skills no matter whether he remains a general or not are always there : )

I hope that helps to clarify their differences.

- In terms of healing others, we advise our practitioners not to do it until they open the MCO in our system, but this requires the instruction of Jin Jia Shen who appears when the Ren and Du mei are ready to be connected in the way of our school, which is very different from how the Ren and Du are connected and flow in other systems. This allows us to recharge our energy quickly so we can more rapidly transform and apply our energy to another human through Wai Qi Liao Fa safely and without exhausting our own energy reserves. Otherwise the energy we cultivate is too fine to use on a typical Hun Shen (human spirit), so in our school we must do some work to learn how to step the energy down so that it does not shock another persons spirit. We have to tune it down from Wuji to Taiji so we can apply it in the physical dimension safely, if that makes sense, otherwise it can overwhelm another persons spirit.

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What does long term and short term practice get you?

Long Term: Yang Shen Spiritual Immortality and Kong

Short Term: Clarity, Peace, Lack of Prejudice, Vitality, Alleviation of Physical ailments, basic spiritual skills.

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Can this be done with taichi? Does it enhance taichi or my other practices?

Yes it is fine. Most people who study Taiji that become initiated, usually report an enhanced practice. Stronger energy, rooting, a better perception and sensitivity to energy and correction from Hu Fa Shen during practice for postural alignment etc.

At the beginning it is fine to continue to practice whatever you wish on the side, but eventually our practice becomes quite specific so at some point a practitioner will have to step in with both feet if they want to fulfil the more advanced steps in our spiritual curriculum.

Between the "beginning" and "eventually" is a time frame that will vary depending on our talents and consistency of practice. For some it can be 5 years for others 10.

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What if one no longer wants to do Xiao Yao Pai is there a un-initiation?

I think I might have answered this one before. One need only address Tai Shang directly and make a formal request and the apprenticeship will be dissolved. No strings attached.

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Now if your a pai then you should have some rare herbal tonics and teas is this correct?

It's not part of our primary curriculum, but the Dao Yu can request lessons on the topic from their HFS or contact a specialised HFS whom excels in these skills. It's fine.

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Does the training develop a strong wei field?

Yes, quite, but the expansion is mostly in the spiritual field, which can extend quite a lot. I can usually feel my master in a nearby location even if I can't see him. His spiritual energy would rush up my body like a reverse waterfall.

This was my sensation in the beginning, now I do not feel it so anymore as I've adapted to the frequency of our school. So usually now, I just feel an initial connection if I come in contact with their aura, but after that there is no sensation anymore, because I've adapted to it through my own practice and absorbing divine energy during Xian Tian Dao Yin Shu.

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Are there levels to this system and if so how many?

5 (8)

0: Dao Yu (道友)

1: Dao Shi (道仕)

2: Dao Zhang (道张) - 2a, 2b, 2c.

3. Dao Zun (道尊)

4. Dao Shi (道师)

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Also do you guys have a lineage chart?

No we don't. We have two reasons for this in our tradition.

1. We are not a Houtian system, so we don't follow a human master. In Xiantian we learn from Hu Fa Shen.

- So there's no way to show a chart with an immortals name, because It can't be verified by the observer in a way that can allow them to authenticate or determine the quality of the school. For that we have initiation, so they can feel the immortal directly as a form of proof.

2. A lineage chart is not proof of anything. It's just something to help ease the mind of the inquirer.

- So to provide that assurance, we act as a teacher of the martial arts would in ancient times. We say fight me. If you can beat me, then I can't teach you anything, but If I can beat you then you can learn something from me. To us this is embodied in our initiation. So anyone who is curious about whether what we say is true or false, can just come and test it then they can decide based on that. No bullshit, no gimmicks, no "trust me" this lineage chart is legit. We focus on what we can prove in the present, not what was in the past. We're trying to move forward not back right? So each person must employ the attitude of a scientist and seek proof when they decide to join XYP. We don't entertain the mind of a follower or encourage faith and we don't believe in what we can't experience.

We have to shift from Philosophy (Theory) to Action (Experience) and then to produce Results (Skill).

So again, in our tradition, we use the initiation to provide immediate experience and results so that there is no ambiguity of any sort.

Again, here we differ quite a bit from many schools, but this is generally due to us being Xiantian and not Houtian.

Quote

Here's my question what are you guys cultivating I know you train to reach yang shen but what do you call it in your system.

We also call it Yang Shen. First Xiao Shen, then Yang Shen as the 3 Hun and 7 Po fuse deeper together to form the unified conscious immortal being.

Best wishes.

PS: While I was writing this one of our members who came from Belgium that was initiated last weekend just texted me saying she had an amazing experience and she's able to channel HFS directly through her voice to have conversations. She said how is it possible that we can develop such spiritual skills so early on. She couldn't believe it lol - I'm very happy for her : )

PPS: She comes from a previous tradition of Buddhism and received Shaktipath in India from her former Master.

Thank you for answering my questions on your sect and its training.

I would agree that working with a higher /divine energy is required in high level energy work.

So does the levels in your system have meditations outside the work with xian?

Also since there is 5 levels does what level does yang shen happen at? Is it really possible for a good student to move to the 5th level of your art?

Now when you say convert the body into light do you mean at will and be able to come back into physical form again?

Furthermore every Hu Fa Shen must first be authorised by Tai Shang before they can guide anyone under the celestial branch of our school. So you could say they also go through an application and interview to apply for the position. Then they must follow the curriculum of our school. Its similar to a physical brick and mortar educational institution and the Xian have their posts and responsibilities.

Thank you for answering my questions on your sect and its training.

Could you elaborate on this?

You seem connected with taoist heaven plenty of taoist beleive that lao tzu was an incarnation of Tai Shang Lao Jun have you interacted with him and if so what could you tell us he is like and have you ran into the jade emperor or leigong?

Edited November 13, 2016 by grassmountiansage

gatito · November 13, 2016

I do not understand some people tho about showing skills? You want some darth vader type skills ? or putting pigeons out of your pocket? That's means you have problems within yourself. The true skill is to create health, peace and happiness in our society, family and in relationships. You want shooting flames out your eyes but at the same time you can not come in terms with your own family - it's useless. Spiritual school should create harmony in the world and better outcomes, clear mind, inspire and create better ideas, making successful moves. Domain of supernatural skills can be useful is they are related to those things not to stomp on another head. Having peaceful mind-heart, compassion and light tranquility inside is more then enough for most people. If you looking for some kind of skilling to enhance your feeling about yourself that means you just lacking those qualities in the heart.

Perhaps the true skill is to ~~create~~ locate health, peace and happiness in our ~~society, family and in relationships~~ selves"?

In which case, that might resonate with others?

SeekerOfHealing · November 13, 2016

Dear Effilang, I researched on many lineages and feel very attracted to Xiao Yao Pai - it's legit as recognized as official school, so people can argue about the methods and stuff like this but it's just official and have it's lineage and texts. Same with longmenpai, wu liu pai etc. (my friend travels to white could temple so i can know some inside information for proofs here and there)

So I will be look forward to become student. The highest Dao is in "regular" things. Rather then looking for constantly negative things towards every school I suggest to bring out the best out of this. If we can learn directly from immortals thru initiation (and I think it's possibile because as I stated before I had experience with similar school but related to buddhist esoteric teachings and there is "something" beyond understanding and regular shen which most of people have not cultivated it to understand subtle works of Dao) even watching flowing hands video you can see that he is not faking it. Every tradition seems have some-related practices and I would say they are just "different". It's very hard to argue that "mine god or mine immortal said this about your school" and "mine said about that" I think we missing point which is cultivation of ourself. I never seen anybody cultivation other then ignorance by grasping and attaching themselves to such concepts and I do not think immortals are interested in this things too. We have so much great opportunities now days to practice, various methods to enhance ourself but we choose to argue about petty things.

I wish all the best for you all guys and I hope we will understand one day that we do not need to go to caves, living on rice and some greens from tree for 20 years just to learn basic qigong moves but we have immortal reaching to us if we are willing. For me this is dream tradition, universal with basic mechanics of life which 10 years old could probably understand. At the same time I respect other traditions because the most important thing if you are putting your heart into this or only your mouth into this.

I really scrolled thru all those pages and topics on this forums about this school, I suggest to do also to others when most of question are answered with patience and clarity. I never found other schools to be have such open heart and giving hands to practitioners but people still trying to bite the hand. I do not know about you guys, but I would make the best use of this hand for myself and others and for this hand if I would have opportunity to be part of such school.

Hope we will see each other in next year.

effilang · November 13, 2016

I want to open up a little about our relationship with Hu Fa Shen through our xiudao (Cultivation of the Dao)

0: Dao Yu (道友)

Here HFS treats us like primary or elementary school students.

If we come across a steep ravine, HFS will help us by holding us up and making sure we don't get hurt.

1: Dao Shi (道仕)

Here HFS treats us like secondary school students.

If we come across a steep ravine, HFS will caution us, but we must carry ourselves and jump of our own accord if necessary

2: Dao Zhang (道张) - 2a, 2b, 2c.

Here HFS treats us like university students and we already have significant independence and maturity.

If we come across a steep ravine, we are expected to be able to see it ourselves and take the necessary actions.

At this level even if we fall, HFS just observes us and waits for us to take charge and get up.

3. Dao Zun (道尊)

Here HFS treats us like graduates from the university of life.

A this point, we are completely independent and on a level where we can work in union with HFS to help others on the most profound spiritual levels.

4. Dao Shi (道师)

Here we are granted the authority to represent Tai Shang Lao Jun as official representatives of the celestial realm.

The Daoshi is authorised to delegate representation to those that reach Dao Zun level, so they can initiate others on their behalf.

gatito · November 13, 2016

You would make a very good Dao Yu in our school

These are the sort of founding qualities we look for at the heart of each candidate.

Thank you for understanding and good luck in your practice!

So, Effi, what of those who do not have these qualities?

Are they not the very ones most in need of help (as opposed to rejection) by your school?

Xiao Yao Pai & Xiantian Dao Yin Shu - [OFFICIAL THREAD]

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