MCO and Zhan Zhuang

[Rocco]

In Prof. Yu Yong Nian's book "Zhan Zhuang" he considered opening the Microcosmic as a 'trap with no way out' (p.139) - on another page (couldn't find the quote again...) he talks about the 'circulation method' as kind of  'the devil's trap'.

 

In a video (also promoting ZZ) another master said, that it is bad to open the Microcosmic deliberately, cause it makes one "obsessed".

 

Why do ZZ experts consider this as evil?

 

I opened the MCO almost two years ago and I have the impression, that my ZZ practice benefits from that. I can clearly feel the energy as a warm, sometimes even as a hot flow.

[RiverSnake]

One of the facets of cultivation that is not talked about regularly is that "power is problematic". Opening up your channels can bring up all kinds of further issues and "inner demons" that you have to work through. I once heard of a Christian (the super fundamentalist type) saying that they tried meditation and thought it was "evil". 

 

These practices break barriers and are not necessarily always comfortable. If someone has a very rigid body and mind, it's going to create internal friction. 

Edited November 10, 2016 by OldWolf

[Gerard]

The best advice someone can offer you is the following:

 

Learn from a real life teacher.

 

Stay away from books and any other online material because you'll go as deep as the surface of a piece of paper.

 

MCO will open naturally when you learn correctly a method that has been passed on for countless generations.

 

Buddhist Vipassana from the Thai Forest Tadition (with equal emphasises given to walking meditation) and Baguazhang are my personal recommendations.

 

Good luck!

[Mudfoot]

It could also be that those teachers are against using visualisation to open the MCO. It is hard to see that a teacher of zz is against opening up things, if you are against that you should not practice any internal art.

[Cheshire Cat]

There could be a myriad of possible reasons for those statements, but the most popular one is that a good enough ZZ practice will open Qi-channels in the proper order and a deliberate action of the conscious mind to direct the flow could hinder the process.

 

BUT...

 

one the most authoritative Master of this art, Wang Xiang Zhai explicitly instructs in his book about guiding the internal Qi along the MCO route, although he doesn't say if it's supposed to be done sitting or standing.

 

Maybe, the point is to not mix those practices: I would suggest to avoid the MCO meditation in ZZ postures,

[joeblast]

If you're intending on isolating some things, it helps not to engage other things in the process

[Miffymog]

Just saying I'm enjoying this thread. I've only had my ZZ practice for just over a year now so this topic is a bit advanced for me, but I like hearing what people are saying. I've done a bit of MCO seated and as I've said in a previous post, my first experience is relaxation, my second is a bit of pleasure, then I feel jaded. So I now never do it. I've tried a bit of healing sounds, but I didn't really like doing it as I feel I've got enough going on in my mind just doing a basic stand. But, in the future I may be happier trying other things out, that's why I'm following this post with interest.

[joeblast]

...I never did explain every step of the way, before - I just established concepts and the pattern, so it seemed to me that few got it and most saw the interpretation as needlessly complex - although, similar to the breathwork explanations, an overarching simplicity arises once it has all come together and can be proprioceptively and energetically executed without the slightest thought...

 

 mmmmrrrrrrrrr....if there was enough interest...I do have some vacation before the end of the year scheduled just to use up the time...

 

...if I'm going to make up 2 hundred pounds of cement, I'd rather stir it with a shovel instead of a stick...

[Bubbles]

In Prof. Yu Yong Nian's book "Zhan Zhuang" he considered opening the Microcosmic as a 'trap with no way out' (p.139) - on another page (couldn't find the quote again...) he talks about the 'circulation method' as kind of  'the devil's trap'.

 

In a video (also promoting ZZ) another master said, that it is bad to open the Microcosmic deliberately, cause it makes one "obsessed".

 

Why do ZZ experts consider this as evil?

 

I opened the MCO almost two years ago and I have the impression, that my ZZ practice benefits from that. I can clearly feel the energy as a warm, sometimes even as a hot flow.

 

It seems that zz teachers don't like what would be considered as forceful or invasive methods in cleaning up energetic channels. According to what I understood at least, they want the body to make adjustments by itself.

[Pavel Karavaev]

Why do ZZ experts consider this as evil?

 

I opened the MCO almost two years ago and I have the impression, that my ZZ practice benefits from that. I can clearly feel the energy as a warm, sometimes even as a hot flow.

I guess becasuse it is dangerous/

 

I often hear criticism to MCO practice in qigong, as it can lead to serious problems with health.

 

For example, this hot flow at some point may go out of control, go up and hit to the head.

 

Once I was talk with a man who practiced MCO. He told me his story. One day while he practicing the hot energy suddenly began to fill his head. And then he felt as something hard hit to his head. Then he lost consciousness.

Later he went with the feeling of the head in a fog, his motor coordination was broken whithin a mounth.

 

I met him after more than a year after this accident. He said that now he constantly feels that

his body composed from the different parts which are not connected to each other. This man looked very unhappy.

 

Best regards.

[KuroShiro]

According to what I understood at least, they want the body to make adjustments by itself.

 

This is what happens during an acupuncture session. The acupuncturist chooses the points the body/mind/spirit "follows".

I think Zhan Zhuang works similarly to acupuncture albeit in a more subtle way.

 

Both are still a big mystery to me and a beautiful one

[FondOfDao]

Few my friends who have practiced MCO have had a bad results. I've even heard about few students got mentally ill after doing that practice. But probably it is individual.

 

I think if everything happens naturally then it is ok - I mean not moving qi with your thought but some route opens naturally.

 

Funny thing - right below in "linked messages" section: Help! Lost My Desire to Socialize after doing Mantak Chia's Microcosmic Orbit. What do I do now?

Edited December 15, 2016 by FondOfDao

[DSCB57]

Hi there, I just wanted to add my personal experience in terms of the dangers of this practice if practiced incorrectly. Please have a look at this post: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42836-can-anyone-help-identify-this-neigong-practice-please/ . It is rather long, but towards the end there is a description of my own experience after having tried to use will power to move the Qi around the MCO. The results were truly devastating, and I am still paying the price years later. 

There are Qigong masters who state that one should only ever engage in MCO practices once all the channels have been fully opened and cleared of any blockages. I tend to agree with that. However in regard to the practice as it relates to Zhan Zhuang practice specifically, I think there is no denying that Grandmaster Wang Xiangzhai did practice and probably teach the MCO, and I found it lacking in the training method I was taught. Perhaps it is true that the MCO can open by itself, after all, this is one of the goals of several Neidan gong systems, including various styles of Taijiquan, but I cannot be sure. 

But what I would say is that the way I was taught the MCO practice made it unnecessarily complicated and difficult to perform. I am of the opinion that such complications actually impede the natural flow of Qi in the body, and can cause a practitioner to apply the will rather than Yi, or intention - thus forcing rather than leading the Qi. Once you read my post you will understand why that should be avoided at all costs!

Edited December 19, 2016 by DSCB57

[LaoZiDao]

 

A pupil asked: There are some practitioners who feel by themselves like qi moves in a circle through the Ren and Du Meridians, and therefore declare that the themselves have opened these channels. This method of opening Ren and Du channels using thoughts and other such methods "guiding qi through the channels of the heavenly circle”, do they differ from the' way of the elixir?

 

 

The Teacher of Single Yang answered: Earlier it has already been said about the principle that "if a body does not have a true seed, it will only be like using fire to boil an empty pot", and about its dangers for practitioners. These practitioners, feeling as "qi moves through the channels Ren and Du", accelerate the process of loss of their own Jing. This is a way of speeding up the approach of death, it does a lot of harm and has no benefits. It's just a wrong,  a “side-road” method of practice.

 

Our School of Wu Chung-Xu – Liu Hua-yang  teaches a dual perfection of Xing and Ming, and what is called "heavenly circle" - it is really the "heavenly circle  of the elixir’s way. " Once a student of the School produces a "true seed", then it will be not  qi but rather the “true water” that will circulate through the Ren and Du Meridians, also the locations of its awareness will be different too. In the  elixir way these channels are passed using the qi of the Previous sky, in that process of circulation from top to bottom  a "sweet dew" will flow, directly sinking into the lower Dantian, and it happens in reality, not in imagination.

 

As stated above in "heavenly circle" of qigong, its the external qi that rotates exhausting the body's jing. On the other hand, in the way of the elixir, the heavenly circle leads to longevity, it increases Yuan-jing and Yuan-qi in the body, but the "heavenly circle" of qigong  leads to depletion of the Yuan-jing, leads to death.

 

Once a student completes the  "elixir seed", a heavenly circle of alchemy starts by itself and will last continuously, collecting the " small medicine", replenishing their own Yuan-jing and Yuan-qi, which has huge benefits and no harm.

[Sudhamma]

1. Buddhist Vipassana meditation has nothing in common with MCO or ZZ. 

 

2. Most Qigong masters of the Daoist tradition refuse to teach MCO to their students, preferring to try it out themselves. I can't comment on other traditions. The fears are real and they have been expressed here by contributors.

 

3. MCO is powerful, and Macro CO is even more so. One of the problems associated with these orbits is stroke. It comes about when the student's blood vessels are no longer pliable, but thickens and rigid through the natural process of aging. And when qi began to circulates in a powerful manner, the vessels burst. Another problem is qi stagnation because the instruction to bring down the qi or to move it with proper mental intent is absent. This will give rise to a host of health and mental issues.

 

4. Most Daoist qigong systems require to incorporate MCO inorder for the student to progress within a shorter time frame, otherwise, the practice is stuck at a low-level. However, given point 3 above, the teacher must exercise extreme caution when teaching MCO. I've seen some qigong videos with a system of MCO taught without much details which should not 'short-circuit' anyone following them. I'll say that they are quite safe unless the student overly emphasize the orbit.