Learning from Immortals

[opendao]

What I said stands.

 

Some of us don't appreciate sleazy, con-artist marketing tactics at this forum, which include saying that everything else out there is fraudulent except (what a coincidence) your school, which (what a coincidence) has a hefty price tag. Having had a tiny bit of experience in your school, learning some of daogong and shengong, I am assured that the glorious advertising and promotion is false. It's just another school which does its own unique thing. If people like it, good for them.

 

Enough with the condescension toward other traditions, which you have no experience in.

 

So emotional... Are you in a good health? Those students who've started with you are much more balanced now... 

Just a coincidence, they continue, but you failed after a month. 

 

About your accusations. So you say that our "promotions and advertising" are false. What did we promise to you and didn't do?

 

Second. I have no interest in any marketing. School's abilities to take new students are limited, and the number of perspective students is not much higher... The reason I'm writing is different, however you're so tired then cannot see anything else. Maybe because in your culture there is nothing else? 

 

Now imagine if you know a TCM doctor, who has invented a new energy meridian, trying to heal say cancer, but there is no result.

 

Moreover, such a charlatan trying to brainwash you, that the sickness is not a sickness, but a sign of fortune or "it'll gone on its own".

 

Do you need to learn his obviously fake method, or it's enough to see that there is no result?

 

And if you see a harm out of such method, do you need to go an try it on yourself first?

 

Or maybe it's better to treat it as a crime and inform people? So let me inform people.

 

If you prefer not to listen, you're tired, boring or whatever - then just ignore and feel free to try as much schools as possible. Maybe in 1001 you'll get a success, who knows...

 

But telling lies is not virtuous at all, so it's weird to hear such things from you about people who respected your willingness to learn and helped as much as possible. Have a good health.

[opendao]

I never mentioned 'Daoism'.  Dao is infinite paths... I mentioned paths. 

 

And I mentioned other Traditions as well, where correct Method exists or has been at some point in time....

 

 

not to Dawei, but in general:

Do you think our School haven't elaborated all that? Again:

 

There is a Tradition of the Alchemy. The roots of it are very ancient, before China and Egypt. But historically mostly it was preserved in China. We know a few Schools in China who has preserved such methods. We know some Schools that preserved less efficient and not so ancient methods. We know some other Traditions in other countries. But all of them share the same methodology and have the same results.

 

Yes, Wu-Liu Pai is one in this list, and it's possible to get personal results. But there is no way to read it as we are the only true school. There others and I'd be happy if you can find more, and I'm pretty sure that different people need different schools. But results are important, so not every school is worth trying.

[opendao]

I know Wu Liu Pai is legit lineage. First thing I saw their "mysterious" teacher Dymitri. Second I know students who have great results and attaining high stages. (like human immortal under Dimitri) All their students are very legitimate people and do not share their methods to public. Most of them are pretty well spoken and pretty well cultivated from basic steps. So they are definitely real school based on my research on Dao schools (which I'm actually seeking to click-in). The cons of this school that it's pretty traditional and you can not jump in into alchemy without doing their daogong (which is alchemical qigong) and you need to follow laid up path - this can be pro or con depends of person character. You need to learn Russian really and be have real De in the heart. They want pass methods to the true students and highest teachings to people but you need to be 'that' person how have good qualities. I would say this school is very elite. Like Harvard or Yale of the regular schools so obviously other will be looked a little down spreading their (false or so called false) teachings - which sometimes can be reasonable as we have control fake doctors but we do not have control in fake school. They are part of 白雲觀 so anybody who claim this school is false just shows that sadly have no idea about Daoism besides personal judgement. I really like to read Wu Liu Pai materials. Criticism of other schools is important to bring what is the best out of them. I'm just researcher on lineages but I can tell this one is definitely most authentic. If I would have more money/knowing russian I would definitely jump into this school. skype sessions are also pretty con because those things you can learn on video (like daogong) etc. The only thing I can say that this school need better management in general. Rather the build walls I would build bridges and trust other people little more so people can start with alchemical methods without worry. All the best for Wu Liu Pai.

 

Thanks. I really see a lot of efforts made to know about us (yeah, it's hard, I know  ).

 

Good luck in your search and feel free to ask questions: we're planning to provide more materials, but prefer to focus on the practice, teaching students and research, so when we see some inquiry - we react. If nobody is interested, then there are a lot of things to do. Obviously 100000+ followers are not in our agenda, so for now we have a good small structure where people can learn. Yes, slowly and steady, starting with basics. But they can do it remotely and without learning Russian.

 

I really suggest do no underestimate the preparatory methods (Daogong and Yuxianpai's practices) - they can help ordinary people to get a good destiny to learn the alchemy. In any traditional School !!! And they are very good to fix various health issues too. Daogong cannot be named "alchemical qigong", but its internal mechanism is based on the alchemical approach and knowledge, not on Qigong. So there are important differences.

[opendao]

Could you explain how "visible" or "demonstrable results" concerning these two factors

look like or can be demonstrated or experienced?

 

I'd prefer if people can elaborate it by studying texts... There are physical signs, some of them are known only by students, others sound so fantastic that I prefer not to write about them here... But even in English translations they are not hard to find. Please try, I'll help.

[Orion]

The link contains a lot of critique but it doesn't open a gateway to suggest another better kind of learning process.

 

When I read this diatribe, my heart shuts down. That's all I need to know.

 

The most evident result that someone is part of a "true lineage" is that they have transcended these petty divisions and are a lot more in their yuanshen heart space.

[Wells]

.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Wells

[Aetherous]

So emotional...

 

So virtuous.

[opendao]

The link contains a lot of critique but it doesn't open a gateway to suggest another better kind of learning process.

 

When I read this diatribe, my heart shuts down. That's all I need to know.

 

The most evident result that someone is part of a "true lineage" is that they have transcended these petty divisions and are a lot more in their yuanshen heart space.

 

ok, at least something about results... Can you provide the source of such definition?

 

And about "better kind of learning process": can you share any example of such "gateway"? It would be very interesting to hear about results of it as well.

 

Criticism of false views is a traditional way to teach (see classics). The fact the Tradition is alive proves that the way is correct. If there is no distinguish between false and true, then there is no way to find a Teacher to learn "from heart-to-heart". Not many people can distinguish without critical thinking, so the major way is through explanations.

[opendao]

I am interested in and read about the visual (vision) signs of the development of yangshen.

If I understand correctly, the practitioner actually sees the yangshen develop.

He sees a golden light which then accumulates and grows into the form of a human body of golden light.

In case that the practitioner didn't cultivate Ming, the light and the developing body of light he sees are not golden but white (or silver), which means that he develops a yinshen, which is not desirable.

Is that correct?

 

Golden light, "aura", "nimbus", is a sign, visible by other people (no special skills required), when Yangshen returns to the body. So it's one visible result of Yangshen. With Yinshen there is no golden aura. Good start )) But what's a chance to see such event? What are requirements for Yangshen to exit? Where it's usually done?

[Daeluin]

Oh, another full moon thread.

 

I was under the impression the ways of dao preclude the conceptual, and therefor all ism's, including the ism of dao.

 

Of course quite literally there is no doubt my impressions - all of them - are incorrect and will give others infinite foundations from which to reflect perspectives, few of which have the probability of making any attempt at merging the parts into the whole.

 

All lineages come from the same root. The ways back are as varied as the dao.

 

In harmony, we see acceleration of unification. In the proclamation of righteousness we see division within unity.

 

The nature of right and wrong, such delicious paradox..... brings the following scene to light.... here we have mysterious forces at play, where one ancient being, still exploring the purpose, or perhaps possibility, of his birth-given powers, creates a gateway to elemental-darkness and gifts it to his beloved, a mortal monarch of a species named tiste. In response, one of his kin appears to bestow a gift a light, and as allegiances within the mortal kingdom polarize, the skin of some turns black, of others white. As momentum unfolds, those of the dark do very little, seemingly content in exploration of receptivity, while those of the light use the brilliance of their perspective to righteously proclaim all else unworthy, birthing a blinding crusade upon the dark, and every shadow cast between.... and yet, is everything as clear to the light as it seems?

 

'Do you know, then, Mother Dark's mind?'

 

The First Son's laugh was bitter, and then he said, 'She has her Consort. Is this not plain enough? But then a kinswoman of yours, Azathanai, flung a burning brand into the haystack. Andii [dark] and now Liosan [light] - we are a people divided, and I cannot but believe that was your Azathanai's intent, to see us weakened. And I must wonder, why?'

 

'Look to Draconus for an answer to that, First Son.'

 

'Draconus? Why him?'

 

'He has brought Dark to the Tiste.'

 

'The Terondai on the Citadel's floor? No. The Azathanai named T'riss had already done her damage by then.'

 

'The Gate, which I suppose we must now call Kurald Galain, is an iteration of control,' Caladan replied, 'over a force that was and remains pervasive, existing as it does in opposition to Chaos.'

 

'To Chaos? Not Light?'

 

'Light, if you would consider this, is an absolution of Chaos. In its purity it finds order, with substance and hue. This is how Chaos seeks, in its own fashion, its own obliteration.'

 

'I do not understand you, Caladan. You speak of these elemental forces as if they possessed will.'

 

'No, only proclivity. Name any force and, with sufficient contemplation, you will discern that it cannot exist alone. Other forces act upon it, make demands of it, and even alter the edges of its own nature. This is Creation's dialogue, but even then, what seems but opposition, of two forces set against one another, is in truth a multitude of interactions, of voices. Perhaps dialogue is the wrong word. Think more of a tumult, a cacophony. Each force seeks to impose its own rhythm upon all of Creation, and what results may well seem disordered, but I assure you, First Son, this chorus makes music. For those willing or able to hear.'

 

Fall of Light, Steven Erikson

 

 

Does not this music have many flavours, many appropriate timings, and is not its tapestry woven upon the entirety of the fabric of dao? How does the ascendancy of the solo cultivator relate to the collective ascendancy of an entire species achieving a critical mass, and what is the merit of weighing them upon the same scale?

[Taoist Texts]

I know Wu Liu Pai is legit lineage. First thing I saw their "mysterious" teacher Dymitri. Second I know students who have great results 

 

 

 

What are the results specifically? 

[Taoist Texts]

It demonstrates a lack of virtue to disparage other traditions.

 

not to mention an unfulfilled sales quota.

[opendao]

What are the results specifically? 

 

just list everything you don't have dear arhont, including your inability to translate chinese texts 

[Taoist Texts]

  but you failed after a month. 

 

 

 

This is what the shell game operators say:  'Dude you quit after the first round! Don't be a quitter! Play more, you will win!"

[opendao]

This is what the shell game operators say:  'Dude you quit after the first round! Don't be a quitter! Play more, you will win!"

 

arhont, I know that's what you hear every month, so definitely you know better about miserable life of shallow people who lie even to themselves.

[Astral Monk]

I'm confused about this marketing meme Taoist Texts keep talking about viz Daode school. Personally I dont see it. But maybe I'm missing something? Or perhaps immortals are giving free lectures somewhere? If so we should all be informed, as that would be a great learning opportunity!

 

Are there any immortals on Daobums? Or anyone who has experienced them? If so, as OP suggests, there must be objective signs of said experiences. What are those signs?

 

8)

[Aetherous]

 

but you failed after a month. 

 

 

 

This is what the shell game operators say:  'Dude you quit after the first round! Don't be a quitter! Play more, you will win!"

 

Looking back at my paypal receipts, it was actually a number of months that I trained with these guys. 2-3/2015, 6/15, then 9-11/2015. This salesman here said I "failed"...in actuality, I passed (there were actually "tests" to enter the yuxianpai training), but withdrew due to having poor results both from daogong and especially shengong.

 

The sales tactic during the training was definitely one of trying to keep getting monthly payments. Daogong training was supposed to take one month at most, but it was drawn out 2-3 months...this was entirely due to the teachers giving out further practices slowly, or teaching slowly (feeling the need to refine basic practices), and not due to any student's inability to learn or perform well enough. I reluctantly continued past one month, despite the false advertising...then when negative results came on more strongly, withdrew.

 

 

The stick in this picture is the admonition that all other schools are false, that one's health can only be improved with this one Russian school's teachings, etc...the carrot just out of reach are the promised results (which no one is even clear about).

[effilang]

@ Aetherous

 

Funny you posted that picture. I use that illustration all the time to describe the very same thing to Dao Yu in our school, only I prefer to use a fluffy bunny in my verbal illustrations 

Edited November 13, 2016 by effilang

[damdao]

 

I've seen some interesting things, for me it's important that other know such things exist, so they can research further.

 

I think one result is precisely that. 

Even if we are beginners we learnt a lot about traditional understanding of daoism (in contrast with the personal approach that is widespread in the West where people with only a superficial reading of the Daodejing teaches daoism).

So, after practicising and some discussions I think that the new students are able to recognize (at least to some extent) the alchemical tradition either in Daoism or in others paths.

And this is no small achievement in a field in which everyone thinks he has the right to spread versions of schools tottally divorced of their source and aims.

[SeekerOfHealing]

I do not know if I can exact share personal experiences of those students and results and there is many reasons for that. As a trust, I would not like to those people to portray me as person who brags about things, secondly I can say whatever I like and the only thing you have to either believe me or disbelief me which also have no any value to the true understanding of those things. The best is to meet those people personally and then pass the judgement. and yes wu liu pai have very specific way till you need pass to go into higher teachings. Those daogongs and shengongs are like cleaning the temple and washing the windows, at first you do not feel or do not see any value of that as we are not living in traditional chinese world but western materialistic "quick everything" world so we do not understand meaning why we should do that - like in my school I often questioned why I need this stupid math or this and that? Only if you mature enough to understand those things they started to have meaning.

 

So if you would like to know and I guess you know Chinese and seem more knowledgeable then I'm you should have no problem to get into contact with such students and masters of lineages (travel to white cloud temple). They are very approachable if you have right attitude and respect towards them but forget about learning methods. I waited 3 months before learning two basic ming-xing methods from long men pai with many talks and stuff like this before being accepted to small things or to know a little more. Many people want to learn those methods but they go on, brag how great they are and look down on other people and teachers. In the book "At the left hand of the god" which is just about yogic/hindu cultivation you have perfect example of this when the guy learned him rare methods of vajroli and then he would just puff gone, not giving credits, use people and their money etc. Many people think "Oh i would do that" but when you started getting into knowledge and litter power here and there you can easily switch sides without regrets without strong foundation. That why most schools cultivate compassion, respect and heart matters first as the "feeling" of goodness towards people and ourselves is needed feeling which fills up the place for egoistic need of power and dominate over others for feeling of fulfillment.

 

Sorry if that sounds as missing sharing the results of those people but I'm not feeling right doing it on public forum - especially if it's not that hard to reach out to those people in those days.

[Taoist Texts]

  .. There are physical signs, some of them are known only by students, others sound so fantastic that I prefer not to write about them here...  

 

So no results, one

 

just list everything you don't have dear arhont, including your inability to translate chinese texts 

 

No results, two

 

I think one result ...we learnt a lot about traditional understanding of daoism ...And this is no small achievement 

 

Not a single result, three

 

I do not know if I can exact share personal experiences of those students and results  

 

And no results at all, four...and counting

 

 

You know that name PayPal..it has a certain ironic meaning  to it. There are certain people that you pay with PayPal and get nothing in return except they are now your pals - who you pay. And you are their paying pal.

[opendao]

Looking back at my paypal receipts, it was actually a number of months that I trained with these guys. 2-3/2015, 6/15, then 9-11/2015. This salesman here said I "failed"...in actuality, I passed (there were actually "tests" to enter the yuxianpai training), but withdrew due to having poor results both from daogong and especially shengong.

The sales tactic during the training was definitely one of trying to keep getting monthly payments. Daogong training was supposed to take one month at most, but it was drawn out 2-3 months...this was entirely due to the teachers giving out further practices slowly, or teaching slowly (feeling the need to refine basic practices), and not due to any student's inability to learn or perform well enough. I reluctantly continued past one month, despite the false advertising...then when negative results came on more strongly, withdrew.

 

 

The stick in this picture is the admonition that all other schools are false, that one's health can only be improved with this one Russian school's teachings, etc...the carrot just out of reach are the promised results (which no one is even clear about).

 

first of all, we never told that "all other schools are false" and "one's health can only be improved with this one Russian school's teachings". So it's just statements out of nothing. 

 

Second, the school is legit and students, who didn't fail initial challenges, did get very good results in improving their health, so out of few dozens we had only 2 people left due inability to learn (health issues, not because of our practice, but because of their previous practices or lack of healthy life style). Few people stopped for various reasons, including doubts, but then decided to resume.

 

Obviously you failed to understand some basic things and failed to get results from the practice. That's what I'm telling about.

 

Even the simple fact that Daogong needs 2-3 years to master. That's why its teaching slowly online, however in the beginning we tried as in regular groups - results were very poor from our standard. We're very keen on achieving the initial balance with this practice first, based on our teaching experience. 

 

As I told you lied about "false advertising". Now you're lying about reasons of leaving. This from your email, in Sep 2015, when you decided to leave:

 

[personal email removed by request of Aetherous, however I''ll post it if he won't applogize for misleading statements he made]

 

Obviously you're lying now about health issues here on forum, because you have a reason, while in the email you told the truth, because you had no reasons to lie. Shame? Ethics? Truth? No, Aetherous has no interest it that. Next time you're confused or don't understand something: ask and don't disgrace your name by false statements without any support.

Edited November 13, 2016 by opendao

[opendao]

I'm confused about this marketing meme Taoist Texts keep talking about viz Daode school. Personally I dont see it. But maybe I'm missing something? 

 

You cannot see it, because you don't know who is this guy hiding behind that misleading nickname. And you don't know his previous relationships with Daode Centre. Don't take it serious, for him it's just a foolish endless game without any sense. Bunch of personal emotions out of senile confused heart.

[opendao]

Hmm. Well, the back-and-forth comments aside, I am still wondering how the methods work.

 

They have been described as balancing post-heaven in order to cultivate pre-heaven energy/resources. I thought that was what most forms of qigong/neigong had done. With the Taoist Yoga, we balance the post-heaven energy with the quick-fire methods that are meant to refine generative force by circulating it in the microcosmic orbit. There are a prescribed number of rotations that seem to have celestial significance.

 

(I don't know any of the specifics on that point, but the 36 or 365 turns seem like they are meant to basically counteract the type of unpackaging of energy that can take place in a day. Likewise, it seems to aim to reverse the downward cycling so that you are a day or so ahead with refinement each time you do the practice and, with this, you build up refined energy so as to smooth the post-heavenly energy system).

 

Granted, this will fill and stabilize the physical and post-heavenly level of functioning and does not constitute full transmutation. But, after this is established, there is also the selectively reversed cycling so as to purify with the slow fires. It is described as raising positive fire and lowering negative fire (these were generated during the microcosmic orbiting) and it works to further refine the post-heavenly so as to approach the pre-heavenly.

 

Now, I am slightly confused. It was described (by you) that Taoist Yoga will will burn pre-heavenly to preserve post-heavenly. I don't quite see how it burns pre-heavenly. Not unless the pre-heavenly is somehow engaged when "the light is turned around" and the gaze is inward. Then again, since this is done so that the faculty of the third eye can be used to move and refine the body's resources, I don't know what resources it might require in order to do what it does.

 

But, all of this aside, if the alchemical methods of the Wuliu Pai are unique and unlike any of the other schools out there, how is the direct pre-heavenly cultivation engaged? Just going from the Taoist Yoga works (and the topical explanation that I had read), it doesn't seem like it is that different.

 

good questions. Can you put them somewhere else (there are some WLP related threads, for example), because in this thread we have a lot of off-topics already? Thanks.

[opendao]

I think one result is precisely that. 

Even if we are beginners we learnt a lot about traditional understanding of daoism (in contrast with the personal approach that is widespread in the West where people with only a superficial reading of the Daodejing teaches daoism).

So, after practicising and some discussions I think that the new students are able to recognize (at least to some extent) the alchemical tradition either in Daoism or in others paths.

And this is no small achievement in a field in which everyone thinks he has the right to spread versions of schools tottally divorced of their source and aims.

 

yes, that's the goal and so far it works fine: those who are able, they start to research deeper. For many people the main obstacle is that they even don't know that some things exist. So they don't try to pursue them.