Learning from Immortals

[opendao]

How I can hate this school if I know Wu Liu teachers (which probably taught you) and respect your methods like 九阳神功. You guys are spreading rumors about Wu Liu - not me. If you teachers laugh about others schools without respect - they are not sages. You also teach "spontaneous qigong" in your school so why do you try ridicule it? Why do you not go to XYP place and take a challenge? Many people are invited to do so and nobody would appear for sure. If you judge book by it cover you can miss the point. If someone doing Wu Liu Pai yuanqi practices would move similar many people would say too "oh this is just spontaneous practices" This is nonsense - you do not have powers to see which forces actually are moved, you do not see pre-natal energies which are in working in Effi video. (those can be felt though if you focus on that video). but well I do not want get into nonsense, let get to the point please. There is XYP branch in China, but it will not be enclosed, but there is, story behind and everything is similar - but I do not know the situation if they are know each other or not, if they have connection or not. I suppose they are closed doors branch of XYP - but this is my theory not fact because there things happen beyond understanding of regular person as those things go straight from Lao Tzu times.

 

No proofs, just rumours, and the part about qigong has no sense - WLP doesn't teach spontaneous qigong at all, so what you describe cannot happen in the reality. Any other fantasies you've heard and confused about?

[opendao]

Lower Dantien is real after a certain stage of the practice.

Before it's not Dantien, there is no Dan inside ))

[effilang]

effi, opinions of primitive evangelist without any alchemy results are very important for me, but keep posting in your school thread, where you can be a god and delete any questions you have no answers. You love word games, but I'm not.

 

I've never deleted people's questions and always answered them. No need to make stuff up. We're all grown ups here. I've only deleted destructive and venomous posts. That's all : )

 

Let's be fair though, you're calling me out for "word games", when you yourself are the master of the art.

I have yet to see you offer anyone a demonstration of any results which you always claim are there.

 

Anytime anyone asks you to put your money where your mouth is and back up what you claim; your well rehearsed reaction is always to deploy chaffs and employ evasive manoeuvres; skillfully pirouetting around the question like a professional ballerina.

 

I'm not even mad, It's impressive every time you do it 

I always look forward to how you will do it next. Honestly, I'm not even mocking you. I'm impressed.

 

Unlike most people on the Dao Bums, I actually have nothing against what most people claim on here, no matter what the school is. I've experienced enough to know that most people barely scratch the surface of what is actually possible anyway.

 

The only thing that I find unpalatable is when a School (any school) claims to teach something, but can never provide any proof of it when asked, but always have some very good excuse.

 

It's really not that hard if the school is genuine - and it's nothing personal really, when you want to go and learn from someone, you need to test them to see if they have actually achieved the things they teach.

 

I'm not just talking about theory either, theory.. anyone can read and memorise, but any school that claims they are genuine, should be able to demonstrate it in practice when asked. Sure this is not a circus and we're not jumping through hoops to please the audience, and I too often decline the requests, but this is 2016; its no longer good enough to hide behind the guise of mysticism and traditional mystery with the purpose of concealing ones accomplishments in fear of persecution. That's just an old excuse now that is unfit for modern times in most countries.

 

I can say things with confidence about Xiao Yao Pai, because whenever someone challenges me, all I have to do is just invite them to a seminar so they can verify it for themselves. It's that simple. I don't even need to talk. Why waste the time?

 

I can end any argument like that in one line:

"If you don't believe me, come and try it yourself."

 

Around this point is when most people online shit themselves, because they don't expect that reply and they are caught off guard. Why don't they expect that reply?

 

Because most schools actually have nothing they can demonstrate or use as evidence of their claims, and because of this for a long time now inter-school debates have been limited by this unwritten, and unspoken, but mutually accepted agreement.

 

It's like some sort of pseudo diplomatic facility designed to save face, and it's expressed like this:

 

Don't call me out and ask me for evidence and I won't call you out and ask you for evidence, this way we can both keep our honour and integrity and continue to run around the merry go round of philosophy and literature.

 

So the reaction I usually get when I reply that way is this:

 

Wait, what?! Did he say come and try it?

He's not gonna talk me to death about philosophy and texts?

 

Nope. I'm not. Just come and try it.

Unless you're scared of what you might find.

 

And No, I don't mean come and try it and get the evidence in 5 years or 20 years.

No. 30 minutes that's all.

 

Normally, after I call their bluff, they just walk away with their tail tucked between their legs, because I've broken their philosophy comfort zone and they cannot stand on the same ground in terms of practical evidence.

 

This is when the real intentions of the practitioner emerge to the surface. Up till this day those that challenge me who prefer to hide behind texts and never show any proof of their claims, have all been invited to come and prove us wrong.

 

How many of those sensei loud mouths have come so far? None. Zero. 

Why? Because they are scared it is true and that it will destroy their belief system.

 

Even as a student of Xiao Yao Pai, I love to visit other schools, explore new things, meet teachers, and continue to educate myself in a variety of ways. I think that to have this sort of attitude even after you have found something that works very well, is evidence of an open mind. I wish everyone would act this way, instead of locking themselves within the walls of their school and the mind of their teacher, who one day, they might even transcend.

 

Life Is a great big adventure, but let's be honest to ourselves. All of us that claim to offer people genuine results; we have to be able to show people that what we say is true and not just talk about it or refer people to texts.

 

Evidence shows the truth. Evidence dispels myths and rumours. Evidence should not be a taboo.

So why is everyone so afraid of showing some evidence if they claim they have it? 

 

The level of theatricality is just too damn high.

 

Let's see evidence and results people. To everyone, I say put your money where your mouth is, or try to stop running it - and if you don't, you can't blame people for always looking at you suspiciously and assuming that you're trying to deceive them.

 

Why not just dispel all the negativity and put all the doubt to rest with one swift stroke?

Surely it would take less energy than all this.

 

Well, that's what I think anyway.

Again, I have no issues with anyone on this forum, be it you OpenDao or Shaman Flowing Hands or whoever else.

 

I actually love the diversity. It's so exciting.

 

All I wish for is that people would stop making conclusions about other schools practice methods without having any direct experience of them first. It's simple. It's logical. It's fair. Even a 5 year old can understand the concept of evidence, surely we can also?

 

I guess it's too much to ask for to be reasonable and scientific. 

But hey... to each their own : )

 

Finally, here is a new years resolution for you guys;

 

Lets try to talk less and do more.

 

Sure, The Dao Bums might be a little less interesting in a world like that, but at least it would be easier for people to separate the wheat from the chaff. That's what we're here to help do right? To help others? Or are most of you just helping yourselves? Because if we're here to help others make good decisions about practice, why make them dance in circles? Just give it to them black and white.

 

I don't mean to sound cocky, but either you practice something and can demonstrate it or you can't.

 

Evidence... try it guys. It's not too hard. Just try to give it. You might actually like the positive feelings it brings!

Edited December 5, 2016 by effilang

[opendao]

effi is lost in words a bit...

 

For others to return to the point:

 

what are results of the alchemy?

 

1) ... can be seen when encounter a true Teacher

2) ... can be understood through words

3) ... are easier to see in own life

4) ... cannot be seen, but the effect can last for many thousands years

 

A Teacher from any alchemy school has to satisfy first 3 items, but #4 has to be in the past of the school as well.

 

All the answers are in classics. What from this list you can find on your way depends only on you.

 

 

[munky]

.

Edited August 23, 2023 by munky

[zerostao]

No, I was simply stating the logical conclusion based on the practitioners report,

which seems very honest and believable to me.

oh, well wells, i wish you the best. maybe in 3-5 years report back to us and let us know how it's working out for you, ok?

Edited December 5, 2016 by zerostao

[Wells]

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Edited March 2, 2017 by Wells

[zerostao]

What is your intention?

to hear or read of your success

[Wells]

.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Wells

[TheWhiteRabbit]

for thelerner:

Feel free to criticise Wu-Liu Pai as being fake, people desperately have been trying that for 15 years   But there is a simple fact: results in the School and its western branch are good enough to be sure to say what works and what not. And we're open for any critical approach from hard-to-find people with similar or greater results.

 

for Dawei: you have an illusion of alternatives in Daoism, but long term practical researches show that there are no "other systems": or you understand the Tradition and get results, or you are sideways. There are a few Schools in Daoist Tradition, some in Chan Buddhism, some in other parts of the world, so it's not limited to one school. But the Method is the same. And Results are the same. So when "other systems" don't follow the methodology and don't get the milestone results, they are obviously out of the Tradition. Even if they resonate with your energy, it doesn't mean they have any value. Especially for newbies here...

 

for Aetherous:

Disparage other Traditions shows obviously lack of good, but telling truth about fake homemade "esoteric systems" is what all great Teachers in the Daoist Tradition did. As a westerner you don't like it, and I can understand why, but it's just a part of our cultural code. All Traditions are based on the ancient cultural code, it has a practical sense. Keyword is "sincerity", try to see from this angle.

 

I have to just mention something here, that The Learner, in the past has not only told me how things in a stretch of my life was going to happen, it actually came true.  So, though you might discount some of the perspectives you get here, some of the information is first hand knowledge and valuable.  All traditions come from religion and without respect for religion it is impossible to attain a tradition or method.  Perhaps my offending officer (my mouth) has veen bulgar and nailed rn many in the past, but it is the cohesive nature of this board and the willingness to stick out for the good of the club and its betterment that helps us all and keeps us around.

 

Its kind of like how I was liberal years ago and after talking to sean eventually I came to understand that conservative values embody the tao... Though I disagreed years ago.  It requires the least amount of effort for development.  So, I have Sean, Stigweard, Marblehead, Mal and all of the people willing to put up with my ridiculousness years ago to thank and be thankful for.  Would I ever say liberalism can be marketed? No.  In reality it only creates terrorists or near-terrorism because stability, normalcy and balance is never learned.  God bless you Sean.  If we had not talked I would have been even more aggressive.

Edited December 5, 2016 by TheWhiteRabbit

[effilang]

In other words:

You invite people who are not interested in your system to pay the fee for your seminar and to attend it?

So your alleged intention "to convince" people who are not interested in your system is actually your intention to make money from them?

Is that correct?

 

haha, biased much?

 

Why would anyone go somewhere or do something they are not interested in?

Free will still exists right?

 

I don't have any "alleged" intentions. You might want to check the meaning of the word.

People have posted more than enough testimonials post-initiation to confirm my claims, so it's not something that is unproven. It's already a fact...

 

And for this very special brand of people to whom I extend private invitations, there is nothing to pay. They can come for free. My payment is the look on their faces when they know it's true. What they do with the shift in their reality afterwards is up to them : )

Edited December 5, 2016 by effilang

[Wells]

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Edited March 2, 2017 by Wells

[grassmountiansage]

The thing with Xiao Yao Pai's alchemy is that I dont see alot of chiflow from the spontaneous method.

 

In all the spontaneous movement qigong that Ive seen there was a core method that helped it like kunlun or shaolin wahnam.

 

It seems like there might be a prep method missing before working with the Hu Fa Shen.

 

When it comes to proof is there a video of a Xiao Yao Pai master moving a cup with their chi or something?

[opendao]

I wrote a bit about results here: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42657-why-do-you-say-school/page-7#entry723307

 

"Dao is not about experiences, not about visions, it's about results. One of the result is a physical immortality and return of the youth. People afraid to even talk about it, because then 99% of so-called "alchemy masters" are obvious charlatans. But open any classic book, they all are about immortality and in-depth physical transformation, on becoming Xians and Buddhas. Accept it and search seriously, or practice something else, more suitable your goals. Alchemy without immortality is a waste of time. This result is a milestone, it cannot be skipped, because then it means you cannot go further.

 

To prevent usual trolling: nobody in a true alchemy school won't tell you about his/her personal results, achievements, practice, because if they do it, they won't be able to continue the practice. The statistics in Wu-Liu Pai School was published recently, maybe I'll translate it somewhere. For now just this: many Russian students could finish the first big step in Wu-Liu Pai school. It means a lot for those who understand. To learn there is very hard, so my point is that you know that such things exist and I'm responsible for my words."

[opendao]

and this one can give some ideas too: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/40488-what-is-dao

Edited December 7, 2016 by opendao

[Walker]

難經：呼出心與肺，吸入腎與肝，呼吸之間，脾受穀味也，其脈在中。（can anyone translate?)

 

Breath out by heart and lung.

 

Breath in by kidney and liver.

 

Between breathing in and out, spleen accept the chi of food.

 

And Mai is inside.

 

(I am not sure if the translation right or wrong)

 

So breath in till kidney is normal.

 

If you can breath in till kidney, it is called "short breathing"短氣.

 

Here you've taken a sentence from a part of the Classic of Difficulties/Nanjing that is about understanding pulses that are taken by classical Chinese physicians. It uses five-phase theory to talk about the relationship of the breath to the way the different zang organs' pulses manifest. Choosing this quote presents a number of problems that undermine your argument:

 

1. It would be a big stretch to say that this passage is trying to describe how we breathe. Again, it's primarily talking about taking a pulse. The commentary in 《难经本义》 explains this passage better than I can, so interested people can just look that up.

 

2. Secondly, you write, "to breath in till kidney is normal." However, according to this passage, one also breathes into one's liver. Still more, one breathes out of one's heart.

 

Basically, this quote really doesn't offer any information that would support or deny the claims made in neidan text.

 

It also probably be inaccurate to think that the Chinese medicine belief that "the kidneys govern qi absorption" (肾主纳气) can tell us anything conclusive about specific Daoist practices.

 

But in hweminjin 慧命經

 

凡聖之變化，總是這個所謂一物一太極，有此太極，知覺言語，無此太極，眼垂口閉，醫謂之真火，實無形無影，而藏之臍後腎前，稍下空懸一穴。古謂之淨土家鄉，極樂國，妙有真空。有此真火蒸薰有形，無此真火息斷形壞。

 

It says the place of breath in is the emptiness.

 

It is completely wrong.

 

And it says this breathe is real fire.

 

It is completely wrong, too.

 

The fire of breathe is called 凡火 normal fire, not real fire.

 

Wait, this passage says that the place of the breath is in emptiness? I don't think so. Let's look at a rough translation:

 

凡聖之變化，總是這個所謂一物一太極，The transformation from mortal to sage, is in sum this so-called one thing, one taiji,

有此太極，知覺言語，Having this taiji, [there is] consciousness and language,

無此太極，眼垂口閉，Without this taiji, the eyelids hang and the mouth closes,

醫謂之真火，Doctors call this true fire,

實無形無影，In fact it is without form and without shadow/reflection/trace,

而藏之臍後腎前，稍下空懸一穴。Yet it is hidden/stored behind the navel and before the kidneys, slightly below a cavern is suspended in emptiness.

古謂之淨土家鄉，極樂國，妙有真空。The ancients called this the hometown of the Pure Land, the Nation of Perfect Bliss, the marvelous existence [in] true emptiness.

有此真火蒸薰有形，Having this true fire, [it] steams and fumigates the tangible [corporeal?]

無此真火息斷形壞。Without this true fire, the breath is cut off and the body declines/dies.

 

I won't claim that my translation is perfect, but I don't see anything in there that can be translated as "the place of the breath is in emptiness."

 

The passage you quote certainly isn't talking about the type of "breath" you bring up above with your Nanjing quote, because here we are clearly told that we are talking about something that is "without form and without shadow/reflection/trace."

 

Therefore, the quote you use here fails to support your accusation that the Huimingjing is telling us that "breathe is real fire."

 

 

Let's see what is real fire in the real dan dao classics.

 

修行人以無形之真火為用，而外面呼吸有形之火非謂全然不用，不過如鐵匠之風扇吹噓於外，周遭包裹，以衛中間神息而已。吾恐諸子未明用火之道，故將呼吸有形之凡火，與先天無形之真火，相提並論，以免妄採妄煉。

 

Hunguanjii said the fire of breathe is normal fire, not real fire.

 

http://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&res=702552

 

Ok, so one more quick translation (I only have ten minutes to do it in, so it ain't gonna be perfect either)

 

修行人以無形之真火為用，Cultivators make use of the formless true fire,

而外面呼吸有形之火非謂全然不用，and while the external, corporeal breathing is not said to be totally not used,

不過如鐵匠之風扇吹噓於外，it is no more than as though it were a blacksmith's fan blowing upon the exterior

周遭包裹，以衛中間神息而已。all-around enveloping, to protect the shen breath within, and no more.

吾恐諸子未明用火之道，I fear that many students have not understood the dao of using fire,

故將呼吸有形之凡火，and therefore they take he corporeal breath that is mortal fire,

與先天無形之真火，and the prior heaven formless true fire,

相提並論，bringing them up together, and discussing them side-by-side [i.e., confusing the two of them]

以免妄採妄煉。[so I make this distinction] to prevent the false gathering and false

refining. 

 

Oddly enough, from what I can tell at a glance, if anything Leyutangyulu and Huimingjing seem to be more in agreement than disagreement here.

 

Conclusion: I have no idea who has a real method, and who doesn't. I have no idea if there is even such thing as "immortality" or "dan" or whatever. Don't really care to get upset about it. But I do know what a good, rational argument looks like, though, and this sure ain't one.

[opendao]

I've never deleted people's questions and always answered them. No need to make stuff up. We're all grown ups here. I've only deleted destructive and venomous posts. That's all : )

 

this one I couldn't find any answers: 

 

Well, since you're happy to answer questions, please ask your Chinese-speaking fellow disciples what the name of the document in Baiyunguan we should be looking for is called

 

(http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42456-xiao-yao-pai-xiantian-dao-yin-shu-official-thread/page-10#entry719759)

 

And a panic mode (with a lot of personal insults by the way, but I got used) about simple lineage and texts questions to other people because you felt "not comfortable"... It's alright, the reasons are clear, just don't tell that I "make stuff up"... At least one my message was deleted, as far as I recall the content was:

 

"recalibration of the body system of depolarization" - really good definition for spontaneous qigong.

 

Sure it's very "destructive and venomous post"...

 

Your story with Flowing Hands also not as nice, but that's your business and you were pointed by other people on that... I really don't care about you, your system and all these questions - you gave people enough information to take own decisions - so I put all this together just to avoid any future misunderstanding because of lack of communications... We all have no time to express fully what we think, and for people out of context it's hard to understand the core...

 

I really think that giving god mode in threads is a bad idea. I won't use it, it hides the truth not only from readers, but from the owner as well.

 

We all need to be able to answer non-comfortable questions, even if there is no one who see it.

[effilang]

Just set up an appointment, you can find their email on their website. You can say that you are investigating Xiao Yao Pai and our Shifu, Li Shang Hu, then just ask them if it's OK to see the official list of China's Daoist clans. Have a nice trip.

 

Your senior A.A.K. said that he was going to check us out. I'd like to invite him to our next initiation so he can investigate us in person, free of charge. If he is a the level to communicate with the divine realm, I'm more than happy to introduce him directly to my Hu Fa Shen, so they can speak together. Either way it would be nice to meet him.

 

He conveys himself with dignity and respect in his posts, so I can see why you are his junior, as you severely lack that conduct in your communication. Its nice to see a more refined representation of your school on the forum.

Edited December 9, 2016 by effilang

[SeekerOfHealing]

He conveys himself with dignity and respect in his posts, so I can see why you are his junior, as you severely lack that conduct in your communication. Its nice to see a more refined representation of your school on the forum.

 

That's why pointed him out that he is just a beginner in Wu Liu Pai, there is big gap between those high level Wu Liu Pai people and beginners who got hyped up with results of their shengong. Like you got results it's fine but the moment some people got results start bashing other people burning their bridge to true cultivation. 

 

Anybody who says Xiao Yao Pai is fake school means he is just fake and attached to small things, letting go small things open space to big things. Anybody who even cultivate qigong can sense what going on effilang video. 

Edited December 9, 2016 by SeekerOfHealing

[alchemist]

That's why pointed him out that he is just a peanut in Wu Liu Pai, there is big gap between those high level Wu Liu Pai people and peanuts who got hyped up with results of their shengong. Like you got results it's fine but the moment some people got results start bashing other people burning their bridge to true cultivation. 

 

Anybody who says Xiao Yao Pai is fake school means he is just fake and attached to small things, letting go small things open space to big things. Anybody who even cultivate qigong can sense what going on effilang video. 

 

I reported about your insults here. OpenDao will reply, if he finds it necessary, when he will be able to do it. So far you can think who his words were addressed to. But they understood him already, so I see no point to continue.

 

What you wrote about Wu-Liu Pai we are going to comment later as well.

 

And your attitude really contrasts with the attitude of Effilang, I hope he doesn't like such bold advertising too.

[SeekerOfHealing]

Sorry, I didn't mean to harm anybody by word or anything. Peanut is just word for beginner, if somebody feel touched or anything I agree to take consequences. My English is not native so sometimes it can sound or feel like I'm getting "buzzy" or "angry" or something but it's not about it. I will just change my words to beginner. 

[alchemist]

Sorry, I didn't mean to harm anybody by word or anything. Peanut is just word for beginner, if somebody feel touched or anything I agree to take consequences. My English is not native so sometimes it can sound or feel like I'm getting "buzzy" or "angry" or something but it's not about it. I will just change my words to beginner. 

 

Okay. I've carefully read the moderators log about what is treated as insults for opendao case, so let's keep the same rules anywhere and for anyone.