Zen

[Stosh]

Treating all men as straw dogs meant to understand and feel that they had great! spiritual value . That they were not mere objects to discard though physically fragile. The physical and practical value was the issue to minimize ,not their spiritual essence not the relationships emotions dignity.

After honoring the effigy , it was destroyed, not as disrespect, but to honor the invisible meaning. Just as Tibetan sand painters destroy the physical mandala despite having labored over it..to remind us that the physical thing is just so much sand. If you want to get back out in the world , ,which you may not, you will need to reconsider whether you actually value what people offer enough to meet them openly or drift into unfollowable associations. We are not all enemies and youre going to need to trust yourself to be able to judge correctly and bring back what youve learned. We can live among others and yet not relate. That relating thats the tricky part. Im not mad at you ,I think you have some considerations to resolve about your next moves though.

Luck, Stosh

Post me any time if you decide I made sense:)

Edited March 5, 2017 by Stosh

[Mark Foote]

and the Australians don't utter the name of a departed one, to continue the straw dog/sand mandala metaphor.  At least, at the moment that strikes me as a similar instance, although more direct to the human circumstance.

[Gunther]

Sitting meditation (Zazen)

Non attachment (not clinging) is called "sitting"

(That includes views, opinions)

To rest in (remember) your true nature is called meditation.

The two are interdependent, therefore it's just sitting.

Just sitting means just being.

Naturally and spontaneously.

The supreme no- vehicle/no-doctrine of southern Chan.

Platform sutra, Hui Neng, 6th patriarch of Zen.

 

Being natural and spontaneous the Unborn will appear.

Zen master Bankei

 

Thanx

 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Gunther

[SeekerOfHealing]

12 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Sitting meditation (Zazen)

Non attachment (not clinging) is called "sitting"

(That includes views, opinions)

To rest in (remember) your true nature is called meditation.

The two are interdependent, therefore it's just sitting.

Just sitting means just being.

Naturally and spontaneously.

The supreme no- vehicle/no-doctrine of southern Chan.

Platform sutra, Hui Neng, 6th patriarch of Zen.

 

Being natural and spontaneous the Unborn will appear.

Zen master Bankei

 

Thanx

 

 

That's BS. Hui Neng refined ming for over 10 years. I do not see bright future with such understanding and looking on the cultivation.

[Gunther]

6 minutes ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

 

That's BS. Hui Neng refined ming for over 10 years. I do not see bright future with such understanding and looking on the cultivation.

Yes, that your opinion/view. Just don't cling to it, let go, it's a non returner/ non abiding awareness.

Peace

 

PS: I wasn't there, nor was you. Hui Neng worked in the kitchen polishing rice, the story goes. Rice, not Ming😀😀😀

Edited November 7, 2017 by Gunther

[cold]

17 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Sitting meditation (Zazen)

Non attachment (not clinging) is called "sitting"

(That includes views, opinions)

To rest in (remember) your true nature is called meditation.

The two are interdependent, therefore it's just sitting.

Just sitting means just being.

Naturally and spontaneously.

The supreme no- vehicle/no-doctrine of southern Chan.

Platform sutra, Hui Neng, 6th patriarch of Zen.

 

Being natural and spontaneous the Unborn will appear.

Zen master Bankei

 

Thanx

 

 

I prefer to sit with a view, it matters not whether it be clouds, mountains, or a pristine landscape.

Be it of my imagination or not, matters not.

I wander and I ponder.

Cling or not  the choice is yours.

[SeekerOfHealing]

10 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Yes, that your opinion/view. Just don't cling to it, let go, it's a non returner/ non abiding awareness.

Peace

 

PS: I wasn't there, nor was you. Hui Neng worked in the kitchen polishing rice, the story goes. Rice, not Ming😀😀😀

 

No. He was gone for 10 years in the woods.

[Gunther]

The point is, in response to the OP, when somebody has problems with sitting:

Am I naturally/spontaneously expressing my nature? Do I enjoy my Zazen on the zafu?

Or am I sitting as a means to an end. If you sit to become enlightened, you can sit till the end of time. All that might happen you be a self righteous, frustrated, angry old man/woman after sitting 40 years😀

There is a famous Zen saying:

If by sitting meditation you could become enlightened all the frogs near the pond would be Buddha's😀

Edited November 7, 2017 by Gunther

[cold]

3 minutes ago, Gunther said:

The point is, in response to the OP, when somebody has problems with sitting:

Am I naturally/spontaneously expressing my nature? Do I enjoy my Zazen on the zafu?

Or am I sitting as a means to an end. If you sit to become enlightened, you can sit till the end of time. All that might happen you be a self righteous, frustrated, angry old man/woman after sitting 40 years😀

There is a famous Zen saying:

If by sitting meditation you could become enlightened all the frogs near the pond would be Buddha's😀

 

I can relate hemorriods cause problems with sitting  and sh*tting resulting in anger and frustration.

[Gunther]

8 minutes ago, cold said:

 

I can relate hemorriods cause problems with sitting  and sh*tting resulting in anger and frustration.

😀It depends further on the motivation. If you take refuge to the Buddha within (non abiding awareness) and ask the Bodhisattvas for instruction to gain skilful means to help others on the way you be fine. If you just meditate to assert yourself superior or have some other axe to grind it would be futile to put it mildly 😀

Unless you want to become a magician)sorcerer/immortal😀😀😀😀

Edited November 7, 2017 by Gunther

[Stosh]

Im losing track, are the frogs grinding axes or are they buddhas?

[Stosh]

Well?

I wanted to humorously put you on the spot and segue an explanation of what you consider is going on. 

Either one is pursuing goal with intent, or one is not,, or one is doing a crappy job of both.

I figure the frogs are likely possessed of buddha nature ,,but thats probably not a common view. 

If they just dont do our ego thing, if they are untroubled with acceptance, and we have no idea whether they are in touch with the great mystery...then I doubt one could ever really conclude as fact , that they are not hatched enlightened, whereas we have sacrificed it, and they might indeed, be properly described ,as being well lit.

[Mark Foote]

From reading the Pali Canon, I think there was a turning point for Gautama in his teaching.  There was a moment when the monks were committing suicide, "taking the knife" by the scores daily, because Gautama had taught the meditation on the unlovely (aspects of the body) and then gone on retreat for three weeks (it's in volume 5 of Sanyutta Nikaya, in the chapter on in-breathing and out-breathing).

 

Ananda, Gautama's cousin and attendant, said, "It were well, Lord, if the Exalted One would teach some other method of gnosis."

Gautama then taught the intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing, which he described as his own way of living before and after his enlightenment, and a thing perfect in itself. 

I see this as a turn in his teaching, away from emphasizing enlightenment and toward emphasizing what it all came down to for him in daily living (I have a description of the sixteen elements of his way of living, down the page here).   Key to his way of living is one-pointedness of mind, as in his description of the power of concentration:

      "...making self-surrender (one's) object of thought, (one) lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness of mind."

 

     (SN V 200, Pali Text Society V 176)

 

What is Zen, if not concentration, and it was concentration that Gautama returned to after he spoke.
 

As to concentration:  relax, relax, relax; that's the part I know.

      "The one word, 'relax', is the most difficult to achieve. All the rest follows naturally. When we are able to relax completely, this is sinking."

     ("Master Cheng's Thirteen Chapters on T'ai-Chi Ch'uan", Cheng Man-Ching trans. Douglas Wile, pg. 66)

 

Edited November 7, 2017 by Mark Foote

[C T]

Wu-shun said, "The path is in daily activities. If one seeks a special life outside of daily activities, that is like brushing aside the waves to look for water."

[Stosh]

Do any of you remember , one passage , then read a second, and then make even the slightest effort to reconcile the two? 

Staring at a wall trying meditate for years , so you can stay dead when you die, is not a mundane activity.

It exactly IS living a life outside the mundane. 

[Gunther]

9 hours ago, Stosh said:

Well?

I wanted to humorously put you on the spot and segue an explanation of what you consider is going on. 

Either one is pursuing goal with intent, or one is not,, or one is doing a crappy job of both.

I figure the frogs are likely possessed of buddha nature ,,but thats probably not a common view. 

If they just dont do our ego thing, if they are untroubled with acceptance, and we have no idea whether they are in touch with the great mystery...then I doubt one could ever really conclude as fact , that they are not hatched enlightened, whereas we have sacrificed it, and they might indeed, be properly described ,as being well lit.

I am restricted to 10 comments a day(newbum)😀

This is just a metaphor (well worn in Zen tradition) 

Can frogs cultivate loving kindness, compassion, bodhicitta, altruism????

There is more to it than beating yourself up with the zafu😀😀😀

Edited November 7, 2017 by Gunther

[C T]

17 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Do any of you remember , one passage , then read a second, and then make even the slightest effort to reconcile the two? 

Staring at a wall trying meditate for years , so you can stay dead when you die, is not a mundane activity.

It exactly IS living a life outside the mundane. 

Why, did you think dying is extra-mundane? I reckon that it's the 2nd most mundane occurrence after birth. Could anything in between, therefore, be considered outside the mundane? 

[Gunther]

36 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Do any of you remember , one passage , then read a second, and then make even the slightest effort to reconcile the two? 

Staring at a wall trying meditate for years , so you can stay dead when you die, is not a mundane activity.

It exactly IS living a life outside the mundane. 

There is no reality in doctrines (sudden or gradual) unless they are applied.

It should be clear that you can practice non abiding awareness 24/7 standing, sitting,walking, running, swimming, lying down, reclining, whatever. Nobody say you should not sit in front of the wall if you so wish

Edited November 7, 2017 by Gunther

[Gunther]

4 hours ago, C T said:

Wu-shun said, "The path is in daily activities. If one seeks a special life outside of daily activities, that is like brushing aside the waves to look for water."

Beautiful.

The ordinary mind is the Buddha mind.

Yet, there is always a great outcry/misunderstanding.

It doesn't mean carry on with your deluded/ignorant thinking and forget about meditation. At all, at all.

The ordinary/natural/spontaneous mind is the mind of great clarity of understanding, the mind of non abiding awareness. All thoughts, emotions, sensations are coming and going, but you don't entertain them, you don't serve them tea😀 you see anger and jealousy, greed, gluttony, addictions, obsessions appear, smile and wave them good bye.(you notice that they are disappointed, come less often, or stay away😀😀)

On the other hand, if you divide life into practice, cultivation, and then fall back into your old patterns, it is like going to church on Sunday, and after prayer you go home beat your wife.

So this is the way to understand Hui Neng, Bankei, and many more Zen teachings of the southern school.

Also advaita, even neo advaita fall into this category. 

I know this doesn't go down well with the orthodox priesthood with shaved heads, Chinese/Japanese names, flowing medieval robes, satori certificates and so forth😀😀

 

Edited November 7, 2017 by Gunther

[Stosh]

3 hours ago, C T said:

Why, did you think dying is extra-mundane? I reckon that it's the 2nd most mundane occurrence after birth. Could anything in between, therefore, be considered outside the mundane? 

Yes its a common occurrence , but , You don't think you die daily, , do you  ? I'm thinking that having breakfast is mundane , and even skydiving might be a mundane thing , in that its not expressly a 'Buddhist spiritual pursuit'. 

One might , pursue 'an uplifted attitude' all day long , but, that's not sitting Zazen .  Enduring aching knees , defying monkey mind etc.

Having a cookie is easy , sitting  is difficult . 

[Stosh]

3 hours ago, Gunther said:

There is no reality in doctrines (sudden or gradual) unless they are applied.

It should be clear that you can practice non abiding awareness 24/7 standing, sitting,walking, running, swimming, lying down, reclining, whatever. Nobody say you should not sit in front of the wall if you so wish

Then Any quote of doctrine , has a false premise behind it , if unaccompanied by the real life application? 

[Gunther]

3 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Then Any quote of doctrine , has a false premise behind it , if unaccompanied by the real life application? 

Why false? It could be right.

The point is that it's just a premise.

And without conclusion it's like nothing, useless

[Gunther]

27 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Yes its a common occurrence , but , You don't think you die daily, , do you  ? I'm thinking that having breakfast is mundane , and even skydiving might be a mundane thing , in that its not expressly a 'Buddhist spiritual pursuit'. 

One might , pursue 'an uplifted attitude' all day long , but, that's not sitting Zazen .  Enduring aching knees , defying monkey mind etc.

Having a cookie is easy , sitting  is difficult . 

Non abiding (no attachment) awareness is sitting meditation (Zazen)

How is the suffering of physical pain gonna help?

This would be the way of the fakir who is torturing himself on a bed of nails to gain will power. He might succeed, but that will not lead to wisdom/compassion at all

Edited November 7, 2017 by Gunther

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, Gunther said:

Non abiding (no attachment) awareness is sitting meditation (Zazen)

How is the suffering of physical pain gonna help?

This would be the way of the fakir who is torturing himself on a bed of nails to gain will power. He might succeed, but that will not lead to wisdom/compassion at all

 

There's a trick to being really good at sitting zazen, especially in the lotus:  be born to a father who is the abbott of a Zen monastery in Japan, learn oriyoki at age three, and wrestle with your brothers in the lotus at age 7.  I'm reading "Embracing Mind", sesshin lectures of Kobun Otogawa, and he said he didn't have pain in the lotus.   I heard him at the close of sesshin in the Santa Cruz mountains in the early 2000's say that he was finishing the third seven-day sesshin in a row, and that he didn't have pain in the lotus (he did in seisa, sitting on the ankles).

 

In fact, Kobun says in the book that he sat the lotus to stay out of pain.

 

I just finished a 5-day sitting down at the very same Zen center (Jikoji), and I was able to sit the 30-minute sittings in the lotus without pain (it was mostly 40 minutes, followed by 30 minutes, followed by a meal or tea, with breaks after meals and a work period in the afternoon).  That has taken me about 50 years.

 

The piece in my signature has a good summary of my approach.  Basically, it's about stretch, and the activity that is set in motion by the stretch.  Turns out that ligaments and fascia can generate nerve signals to cause muscles to contract, and because the muscles and ligaments are in paired groups on opposite sides of the body, stretch can initiate muscular activity back and forth from one side of the body to the other. 

 

The other biggy has to do with the mechanisms of support for the lower spine--there are two.

Knowing the kinesthesiology, and being willing to let it all go just to breathe, I can sit a 40 in the lotus in the morning without pain, at home.  It is a big stretch, and toward the end especially, a stretch in the ligaments that attach the sacrum to the pelvis (which is physically tiny).

 

And yes, there's more to it than stretch.  There's experience in the senses other than the six that Gautama named (the usual five plus the mind), not that he didn't know the other three (because he described them explicitly in his descriptions of the meditative states), but that he didn't have language for them.  Gravity is one of them, as in "sink".

Edited November 7, 2017 by Mark Foote

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, Gunther said:

Non abiding (no attachment) awareness is sitting meditation (Zazen)

How is the suffering of physical pain gonna help?

This would be the way of the fakir who is torturing himself on a bed of nails to gain will power. He might succeed, but that will not lead to wisdom/compassion at all

The false premise would be that your post had a direction, an intent , that it was indicating was appropriate to the situation. 

It the frogs/people  just sit and stare, without intent , to become enlightened, that may be suggested as being probably ineffectual , or,  it may be the proposed , effectual,  procedure. 

Just pick one , because suggesting that ones behavior in meditation is expected to be , ineffectual or, effectual , depending on whether one has intent to succeed or not , sets up the scenario that they either should or should not be sitting like frogs appear to be. 

We do not know if the frog has compassion in the Buddhist sense of the word, because it does not suggest-demand any physical demonstration, as it would, in Christian circles, where one is not really considered compassionate, if their mental summary concludes that one should just let the suffering continue ,with no attempt or desire, to mediate it. 

( Let em eat cake. for example , would be a non-compassionate sentiment. )

 

Non-abidance. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. In Buddhism, especially the Chan (Zen) traditions, non-abidance , is the practice of avoiding mental constructs during daily life. That is, other than while engaged in meditation (Zazen).

 

I think one will be still using mental constructs all day long , gravity is a mental construct , as is the persistence of objects , as is family relationships , and color and a million other things,. it is precisely this fact , which makes sitting Zazen a thing to do at all . 

Its 'an elephant in the room' , you sit so you can abide more. , and we cannot tell whether the frog abides or not. If the fakir overcomes his reaction to pain , he may be abiding more , in order to do so. But I agree , his evasion of pain , may, or may not , assist finding compassion or wisdom ,,

depending the definitions you use for those.