Zen

[Gunther]

10 minutes ago, Gunther said:

11 minutes ago, Gunther said:

not pushing the pendulum into one extreme. The middle way.

The pendulum lends itself to a good metaphor regards non duality, Zen:

Good intentions/actions either way create more momentum. Raising awareness means climbing up the pendulum shaft, thereby reducing the gap between the extremes. Finally reaching the fulcum you are at the eye of the hurricane, nothing moves😀yet life goes on

 

[Stosh]

11 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Note that the good intentions, or bodhisattva concept are just that. A concept that works within. It is you who benefits not the world or sentient beings. Of course if it works and you are liberated you would have made the world a better place. After that enlightened action would be different. Namely, just balancing the opposite forces if needed, not pushing the pendulum into one extreme. The middle way.

 

Eh... I can't be too enthusiastic about that view of pursuing self  liberation  as actually being compassionate  , but don't mind me.

A person is correct ,that they count as a proper end consumer of well-being , and they Are 'In the world'. 

Nor is any intentional effort to balance the pendulum of the universe needed since it trends that way on its own. 

As I see it Effort has to be made to push a baseline above equilibrium and keep it there. Siddhartha could've just left everybody to resolve their own issues , and said "I gots Mine , Jack" but is not reported to have had such an attitude. 

[Stosh]

8 minutes ago, Gunther said:

The pendulum lends itself to a good metaphor regards non duality, Zen:

Good intentions/actions either way create more momentum. Raising awareness means climbing up the pendulum shaft, thereby reducing the gap between the extremes. Finally reaching the fulcrum you are at the eye of the hurricane, nothing moves😀yet life goes on

Interesting, I'll need to consider that one for a bit. Very good.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Stosh

[Gunther]

6 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Eh... I can't be too enthusiastic about that view of pursuing self  liberation  as actually being compassionate  , but don't mind me.

A person is correct ,that they count as a proper end consumer of well-being , and they Are 'In the world'. 

Nor is any intentional effort to balance the pendulum of the universe needed since it trends that way on its own. 

As I see it Effort has to be made to push a baseline above equilibrium and keep it there. Siddhartha could've just left everybody to resolve their own issues , and said "I gots Mine , Jack" but is not reported to have had such an attitude. 

Of course it's not fake compassion. It's a paradox. The bodhisattva vows to liberate all sentient beings, and you bet he means it, he puts himself last,. But if he didn't know that there are no sentient beings at all, he wouldn't be a bodhisattva😀 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Gunther

[Gunther]

9 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Interesting, I'll need to consider that one for a bit. Very good.

 

 

Don't think, that's not fair, you have to reply instantly without mind 😀😀

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, Gunther said:

Don't think, that's not fair, you have to reply instantly without mind 😀😀

Ordinarily thats my MO. but Im trying to improve.

[Mark Foote]

On 11/7/2017 at 9:40 AM, Stosh said:

 

I think one will be still using mental constructs all day long , gravity is a mental construct , as is the persistence of objects , as is family relationships , and color and a million other things...

 

 

 

There is the setting up of mindfulness, with mental constructs like "gravity", and then there is the experience of the otoliths.

 

Similarly, the mental construct "equalibrioception" and the experience of the vestibular organs, the mental construct "eyes" and the experience of the resetting of the location of awareness in the interaction between the ocular organs and the vestibulars, the mental construct "proprioception" and the experience of consciousness that originates in the ligaments, muscles, and joints throughout the body.

 

There's the construct of reciprocal innervation in the paired ligaments and muscles on opposite sides/ends of the body, and then there's the experience.

 

I would summarize Gautama's setting up of mindfulness:

 

relax

calm down

think

breathe

 

Gautama returned to self-surrender and a consequent one-pointedness in the experience of the location of awareness after he spoke.  You're right, it's self-surrender and not the constructs that makes the way of living come to pass.  

 

Where's the necessity for one-pointedness in the experience of the location of awareness, for self-surrender, if not in the inhalation of the moment, if not in the exhalation of the moment?  There's the construct inhalation and exhalation, and then there's the experience of the whole body of the inhalation, of the whole body of the exhalation--here is where I think Gautama's way of living begins.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by Mark Foote

[Stosh]

7 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

There is the setting up of mindfulness, with mental constructs like "gravity", and then there is the experience of the otoliths.

 

Similarly, the mental construct "equalibrioception" and the experience of the vestibular organs, the mental construct "eyes" and the experience of the resetting of the location of awareness in the interaction between the ocular organs and the vestibulars, the mental construct "proprioception" and the experience of consciousness that originates in the ligaments, muscles, and joints throughout the body.

 

There's the construct of reciprocal innervation in the paired ligaments and muscles on opposite sides/ends of the body, and then there's the experience.

 

I would summarize Gautama's setting up of mindfulness:

 

relax

calm down

think

breathe

 

Gautama returned to self-surrender and a consequent one-pointedness in the experience of the location of awareness after he spoke.  You're right, it's self-surrender and not the constructs that makes the way of living come to pass.  

 

Where's the necessity for one-pointedness in the experience of the location of awareness, for self-surrender, if not in the inhalation of the moment, if not in the exhalation of the moment?  There's the construct inhalation and exhalation, and the experience of the whole body of the inhalation, the experience of the whole body of the exhalation--here is where I think Gautama's way of living begins.

 

 

I don't think I experience my otoliths, nor do I experience photons, etc, ..and instead ,do create experiences in the form of a mental model , regarding the "proprioception" going on....so I figure I agree with you up to that point. We perhaps diverge after that. ? 

I think it was suggested that one can walk around all day long , not making sophisticated mental constructs , I disagreed , and here I think you are describing a mode of approaching what you consider mindfulness ,, if that's correct , then my question extends to you , whether you are mindful of breathing , or if you are mindful of the grasshopper. , I don't think you can be fully mindful of either , if your answer is ' both' . When one multitasks , they are dividing the allocation of time spent on more than one task , and so then they are not mindful 24 -7 , if they are going to the store to get groceries. 

Edited November 16, 2017 by Stosh

[Mark Foote]

4 hours ago, Stosh said:

I think it was suggested that one can walk around all day long , not making sophisticated mental constructs , I disagreed , and here I think you are describing a mode of approaching what you consider mindfulness ,, if that's correct , then my question extends to you , whether you are mindful of breathing , or if you are mindful of the grasshopper. , I don't think you can be fully mindful of either , if your answer is ' both' . When one multitasks , they are dividing the allocation of time spent on more than one task , and so then they are not mindful 24 -7 , if they are going to the store to get groceries. 

 

I think you do experience the otoliths, when you drop a ball and go to catch it, anything like that.

 

I actually am not focused on mindfulness, as much as on the necessity I experience at times for a one-pointedness of mind.  By that I mean a feeling for the location of my awareness, involving equilibrioception, proprioception, and graviception. 

 

Happens that when I experience that necessity, I can usually experience a one-pointedness of mind now, yet the ability hinges on the inclusion of the senses I describe above and it took me a long time to find and recognize them.  I'm as mindful as I'm going to be, when I have a recurring/seemingly continuous experience of the location of my awareness (in three-dimensional space), as a necessity of breath.

[Mark Foote]

I should mention that although the one-pointedness I experience in the location of my awareness occurs as a necessity of breath, there is a feeling of well-being. 

 

There's a description in the Pali Canon of two "cessations" that I think summarize how a feeling of well-being can arise in connection with a necessity of breath, specifically "the cessation of ease apart from equanimity", and "the cessation of happiness apart from equanimity" (Sanyutta Nikaya volume V 215).

 

The equanimity referred to is defined as equanimity with respect to the multiplicity of the senses (Majjhima Nikaya 220), and the necessity that I feel in the movement of breath turns out to be exactly the need for equanimity with respect to all of my senses (with no sense left out).

 

As I have mentioned, for me at this time, a feeling of necessity in the movement of breath seems to speak to my need to include equalibrioception, proprioception, and graviception in my awareness (whoa, checking online for a good description of graviception just now, I discover an article about graviceptors other than the otoliths--news to me!). 

 

In addition, I think there is a "suffocation response" panic that makes relaxation and calm a part of the practice that occurs in response to feeling such a necessity of breath (you can read more about the "suffocation response" here).

 

I would say that the inclusion of all the senses in awareness can make the whole experience of a necessity of breath a part of well-being, and draw a person through the suffocation response.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by Mark Foote

[Gunther]

Sure, it can all turn into a rather complicated science.

But Zazen is really just karma yoga

[Mark Foote]

To me, karma yoga is the cessation of habitual action, conscious or unconscious--first in speech, then in inhalation and exhalation, then in perception and sensation. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

I'm just amazed that a person in India 2500 years ago described his method for the gradual cessation of the activities, meaning the habitual activity I describe above.  I thought I could just get the knack when I was young, after I experienced the cessation of (habitual activity in) inhalation and exhalation (zazen got up and walked across the room), but I had to turn to science because I still couldn't sit the lotus for any length of time without discomfort.

 

Lots of people do have the talent and display the knack, don't they!  Hope I don't bust my knees...

Edited November 19, 2017 by Mark Foote

[Gunther]

29 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

To me, karma yoga is the cessation of habitual action, conscious or unconscious--first in speech, then in inhalation and exhalation, then in perception and sensation. 

 

 

 

 

Not unconscious. 

Action with awareness, moment to moment without expectations/attachment

[Mark Foote]

3 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Not unconscious. 

Action with awareness, moment to moment without expectations/attachment

 

What about intention? 

 

I think it's a point Stosh raised.

[Gunther]

29 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

I'm just amazed that a person in India 2500 years ago described his method for the gradual cessation of the activities, meaning the habitual activity I describe above.  I thought I could just get the knack when I was young, after I experienced the cessation of (habitual activity in) inhalation and exhalation (zazen got up and walked across the room), but I had to turn to science because I still couldn't sit the lotus for any length of time without discomfort.

 

Lots of people do have the talent and display the knack, don't they!  Hope I don't bust my knees...

Yes, that experience of breath cessation removes all doubts about your true nature. But it should not be regarded more important than chop wood/carry water so to speak.

Torturing body (fakir) and mind(yogi) may succeed in developing will power but not wisdom/compassion

Edited November 19, 2017 by Gunther

[Gunther]

4 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

What about intention? 

 

I think it's a point Stosh raised.

What about it?

Let's keep it simple. The intention is to be happy. Naturally it follows that this includes all sentient beings

[Mark Foote]

Agreed, on the intention being happiness--can't help it

 

On  chopping wood and carrying water, what about this:
 

Cleave a (piece of) wood, I am there;
lift up the stone and you will find Me there.

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, pg 43 log. 77, ©1959 E. J. Brill)
 

Edited November 19, 2017 by Mark Foote

[Gunther]

8 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

Agreed, on the intention being happiness--can't help it

 

On  chopping wood and carrying water, what about this:
 

Cleave a (piece of) wood, I am there;
lift up the stone and you will find Me there.

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, pg 43 log. 77, ©1959 E. J. Brill)
 

Perfect Zen 😀

[Fa Xin]

.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Fa Xin

[zafrogzen]

Gunther said earlier, “There is a famous Zen saying:
If by sitting meditation you could become enlightened all the frogs near the pond would be Buddha's?”

I can’t remember coming across that “famous” saying before, but, aside from whether frogs are enlightened or not, to say that sitting meditation isn’t a practice that engenders the possibility of enlightenment is contrary to the experience of a majority of the great sages (including the Buddha) who were enlightened as a direct result of sitting meditation. What other practice is so effective? 

 

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, zafrogzen said:

“There is a famous Zen saying:
If by sitting meditation you could become enlightened all the frogs near the pond would be Buddha's?”

I can’t remember coming across that “famous” saying before

Yes, it does sound fishy

 

 Sengai (1750-c1837) Meditating Frog

Sengai Gibon (1750-c.1837) e was a Rinzai Zen monk and teacher – the abbot of Shofukuji temple (the oldest Zen temple in Japan – founded by Eisai – who brought Zen to Japan – in the 12^th century). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gunther]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Yes, it does sound fishy

 

 Sengai (1750-c1837) Meditating Frog

Sengai Gibon (1750-c.1837) e was a Rinzai Zen monk and teacher – the abbot of Shofukuji temple (the oldest Zen temple in Japan – founded by Eisai – who brought Zen to Japan – in the 12^th century). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

yep, that's the painting that goes with the saying. I suggest just forget about it. If you don't understand, the last thing I want is discourage you from your practice. Just sit. Good luck

[zafrogzen]

That’s a copout. You needn’t worry about discouraging me from my practice.

I have to assume you mean that practicing zazen to gain enlightenment is to lose it -- like searching for a donkey while riding on it? That realization is easy. Getting off the donkey, once you've got on it, is the hard part (as Foyan liked to say)

.
What else is Zazen if not the practice of letting go of that sort of nonsense?

 

 

Edited November 23, 2017 by zafrogzen

[Gunther]

3 hours ago, zafrogzen said:

That’s a copout. You needn’t worry about discouraging me from my practice.

I have to assume you mean that practicing zazen to gain enlightenment is to lose it -- like searching for a donkey while riding on it? That realization is easy. Getting off the donkey, once you've got on it, is the hard part (as Foyan liked to say)

.
What else is Zazen if not the practice of letting go of that sort of nonsense?

 

 

you are kind of suggesting I made that frog story up. And I therefore have an agenda against Zazen. That's not the case. But since I forgot where I read it, I can't give you the source and have to leave it at that 

The meaning is, that without a basic understanding or intuitive glimpse of your true nature (original face) all meditation is cultivating a subtle, refined ego/personality/character. Nothing wrong with that. But you would be polishing the reflection, the face in the mirror so to speak.

There is also a definition of Zazen (platform sutra) that does not mean actual sitting facing a wall.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Gunther