Zen

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, zafrogzen said:

 

True, and I've felt that many times in the midst of sesshins in a monastic setting. However, in my experience that devotion and respect is usually directed towards individuals rather than the tradition of which they are only one part.

Unfortunately true and has something to do with exportation to the West and the associated mystique and exoticism, not to mention the unfamiliarity with culture and language. It's far easier to deify a teacher than to actually dig deep into the practices and into oneself to see what is really going on. It also allows us to feel that we're spiritually superior without actually having to do anything. Easterners "get it" culturally. They deeply respect teachers but as representatives of the "word," as community leaders, as healers, and true spiritual guides, not so much as celebrities or superhuman. That's a gross generalization of course but somewhat accurate.

 

 

4 hours ago, zafrogzen said:

In Tibetan practice in particular the "Guru" is said to be infallible and if he does something stupid or venal we are directed to view it as beyond our understanding and not what it obviously is.

I won't get too deeply into this here for fear of derailing a good thread but I'd like to say a few words about this point.

There's a method to the seeming madness but it has not translated or travelled well. 

You're referring specifically to the tantric path. We don't see this so much in the sutric or dzogchen path.

In the dzogchen path it takes on a meaning much closer to that of zen.

In the dzogchen path, the guru IS the nature of mind. 

The living guru embodies that nature, as do we as practitioners.

If one gets it, they see that the guru is no more or less perfect than they are. 

All is seen as the enlightened mandala.

 

As Gunther alludes to in some of his posts and quotes, a characteristic of the nature of mind is that of perfect equanimity. There is no right or wrong, no preference or judgment, everything is as it is and all is perfected in that unlimited wholeness.

This is essentially impossible for the relative mind to grasp. 

I think the tantric method tries to bring the student closer to understanding this close connection with the guru.

Much like the zen master sometimes does outrageous things to shock a student into realization.

 

It does not mean that relative reality is wrong. It's still wrong to sexually abuse a student.

The guru can do wrong and make mistakes from a relative perspective and yet they still are of that Buddha essence.

This is a very advanced perspective that requires a great deal of careful preparation to embrace and I'm not saying I understand it fully.

 

I think that many Western students have rushed through to receive advanced initiations and teachings without the necessary preparation. It's their fault as well as that of the teacher. I heard a funny story about a practitioner who was hosting a famous teacher from Tibet. She was due to drive him somewhere. Knowing that he was perfect and omniscient, she didn't bother to bring along directions to the location and they had no idea how to get there. The guru obviously wasn't quite a omniscient as she was led to believe. 

 

The teacher-student relationship in tantra is extraordinarily close and it's not something that has been very successfully replicated in the West. I'm not so much trying to defend it as trying to share a perspective. It may not be something that is appropriate for Western culture in general. At the very least, teachers probably need to be much more selective and demanding of their students like in the East. Furthermore, unqualified and abusive teachers, like Sogyal, need to be called out and dealt with definitively and publicly, as should all abusive and corrupt people in positions of power.

 

 

4 hours ago, zafrogzen said:

I've been amazed at how otherwise intelligent, highly educated folks can be party to such nonsense.This has also carried over into zen, where everyone, especially teachers, are heavily invested in maintaining the superiority and exceptionalism of their immediate predecessors.

Sad and true.

 

 

4 hours ago, zafrogzen said:

Mahayana teachings are about total equality, with the Buddha-Nature to be seen in everyone. That's where devotion and respect should be placed.

Precisely.

 

I appreciate the dialogue.

[Gunther]

17 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

A thing that I have learned to do, out of necessity, is to look for the positive and substantive in the teaching.  Gautama taught this way, and Yuanwu (the author of "The Blue Cliff Record"). 

 

When I try to write in a positive and substantive manner, I am forced to recognize when I am saying something that is intended for someone else, and when I am saying something that is in some way new and consequential to me. 

 

There are moments in Dogen's teaching where he says something positive and substantive, although his comments on the Chinese legacy are often mostly negations.  Looking for the positive and substantive in "Genjo Koan", for example, I came up with this:
 

"When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…"

 

There's a third line that goes with the first two, and here Dogen reverts to a negative, but I forgive him!

Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent.

 

As far as I know, there's only one way to make positive and substantive statements that speak to the other side of the universe--we all have to have at least one hand on, and let it move like Baoche's fan:

 

 

 

How's that?

Dogen offered the following statement in "Genjo Koan":

"When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point." (1)

[Mark Foote]

8 hours ago, Gunther said:

Dogen offered the following statement in "Genjo Koan":

"When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point." (1)

 

(It's in bold)

thezensite  Actualizing the Fundamental Point (Genjo-koan)

Translated by Robert Aitken and Kazuaki Tanahashi 
Revised at San Francisco Zen Center

As all things are buddha-dharma, there is delusion and realization, practice, and birth and death, and there are buddhas and sentient beings. As the myriad things are without an abiding self, there is no delusion, no realization, no buddha, no sentient being, no birth and death. The buddha way is, basically, leaping clear of the many of the one; thus there are birth and death, delusion and realization, sentient beings and buddhas. Yet in attachment blossoms fall, and in aversion weeds spread. To carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening. Those who have great realization of delusion are buddhas; those who are greatly deluded about realization are sentient beings. Further, there are those who continue realizing beyond realization, who are in delusion throughout delusion. When buddhas are truly buddhas they do not necessarily notice that they are buddhas. However, they are actualized buddhas, who go on actualizing buddhas. When you see forms or hear sounds fully engaging body-and-mind, you grasp things directly. Unlike things and their reflections in the mirror, and unlike the moon and its reflection in the water, when one side is illumined the other side is dark. To study the buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of realization remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly. When you first seek dharma, you imagine you are far away from its environs. But dharma is already correctly transmitted; you are immediately your original self. When you ride in a boat and watch the shore, you might assume that the shore is moving. But when you keep your eyes closely on the boat, you can see that the boat moves. Similarly, if you examine myriad things with a confused body and mind you might suppose that your mind and nature are permanent. When you practice intimately and return to where you are, it will be clear that nothing at all has unchanging self. Firewood becomes ash, and it does not become firewood again. Yet, do not suppose that the ash is future and the firewood past. You should understand that firewood abides in the phenomenal expression of firewood, which fully includes past and future and is independent of past and future. Ash abides in the phenomenal expression of ash, which fully includes future and past. Just as firewood does not become firewood again after it is ash, you do not return to birth after death. This being so, it is an established way in buddha-dharma to deny that birth turns into death. Accordingly, birth is understood as no-birth. It is an unshakable teaching in Buddha's discourse that death does not turn into birth. Accordingly, death is understood as no-death. Birth is an expression complete this moment. Death is an expression complete this moment. They are like winter and spring. You do not call winter the beginning of spring, nor summer the end of spring. Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water. Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long of short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky. When dharma does not fill your whole body and mind, you think it is already sufficient. When dharma fills your body and mind, you understand that something is missing. For example, when you sail out in a boat to the middle of an ocean where no land is in sight, and view the four directions, the ocean looks circular, and does not look any other way. But the ocean is neither round or square; its features are infinite in variety. It is like a palace. It is like a jewel. It only look circular as far as you can see at that time. All things are like this. Though there are many features in the dusty world and the world beyond conditions, you see and understand only what your eye of practice can reach. In order to learn the nature of the myriad things, you must know that although they may look round or square, the other features of oceans and mountains are infinite in variety; whole worlds are there. It is so not only around you, but also directly beneath your feet, or in a drop of water. A fish swims in the ocean, and no matter how far it swims there is no end to the water. A bird flies in the sky, and no matter how far it flies there is no end to the air. However, the fish and the bird have never left their elements. When their activity is large their field is large. When their need is small their field is small. Thus, each of them totally covers its full range, and each of them totally experiences its realm. If the bird leaves the air it will die at once. If the fish leaves the water it will die at once. Know that water is life and air is life. The bird is life and the fish is life. Life must be the bird and life must be the fish. It is possible to illustrate this with more analogies. Practice, enlightenment, and people are like this. Now if a bird or a fish tries to reach the end of its element before moving in it, this bird or this fish will not find its way or its place. When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. When you find you way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point; for the place, the way, is neither large nor small, neither yours nor others'. The place, the way, has not carried over from the past and it is not merely arising now. Accordingly, in the practice-enlightenment of the buddha way, meeting one thing is mastering it--doing one practice is practicing completely. Here is the place; here the way unfolds. The boundary of realization is not distinct, for the realization comes forth simultaneously with the mastery of buddha-dharma. Do not suppose that what you realize becomes your knowledge and is grasped by your consciousness. Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent. Its appearance is beyond your knowledge. Zen master Baoche of Mt. Mayu was fanning himself. A monk approached and said, "Master, the nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach. When, then, do you fan yourself?" "Although you understand that the nature of the wind is permanent," Baoche replied, "you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere." "What is the meaning of its reaching everywhere?" asked the monk again. The master just kept fanning himself. The monk bowed deeply. The actualization of the buddha-dharma, the vital path of its correct transmission, is like this. If you say that you do not need to fan yourself because the nature of wind is permanent and you can have wind without fanning, you will understand neither permanence nor the nature of wind. The nature of wind is permanent; because of that, the wind of the buddha's house brings for the gold of the earth and makes fragrant the cream of the long river. Written in mid-autumn, the first year of Tempuku 1233, and given to my lay student Koshu Yo of Kyushu Island. {Revised in} the fourth year of Kencho {I252}.

[zafrogzen]

I jumped in here after I noticed Gunther's "famous" zen saying that "If by sitting meditation you could become enlightened all the frogs near the pond would be Buddha's?”

 

I'd say that if you could become enlightened by reading and thinking then all us here would be enlightened. Also, if you could be enlightened by someone else than most of the people in the world would have been enlightened by now.

 

In "Bendowa" one of his earliest and most cogent works, Dogen wrote,

 

"Sitting upright in zazen is the authentic gate to freeing yourself in the unconfined realm of samadhi. Although this inconceivable dharma is abundant in each person, it is not manifested without practice, and it is not attained without realization."

 

"All ancestors and all Buddhas who uphold Buddha Dharma have made upright sitting the true path of awakening, practicing Zazen Samadhi. Those who attained awakening in India and China followed this way."

 

"You should not doubt this. If you do not fully understand it in this lifetime, when will you have a chance to clarify the great matter? If you wish to clarify the great matter, there is nothing better than Zazen Samadhi. Samadhi is nothing but zazen."

 

In zen centers and monasteries they sit zazen the first thing every morning and the last thing at night, enfolding the activities of the day in zazen samadhi. Anyone can do that on their own, although it's best to have some basic instruction in the beginning.

 

Pain is unavoidable in this life, but within the equanimity of zazen samadhi, pain and pleasure are equal. Zazen also gives one the ability to understand what is written and to receive what teachers have to give.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by zafrogzen

[Wells]

1 hour ago, zafrogzen said:

I jumped in here after I noticed Gunther's "famous" zen saying that "If by sitting meditation you could become enlightened all the frogs near the pond would be Buddha's?"

 

[Wells]

Zen guys don't achieve rainbow body, therefore they don't achieve buddhahood.

Since Bodhidharma who "did not leave a corpse" there is obviously something missing in the transmission...

Edited December 4, 2017 by Wells

[Miroku]

1 minute ago, Wells said:

Zen guys don't achieve rainbow body, therefore they don't achieve buddhahood.

Hehe, again responding to rainbow body.

But the Buddha didn't achieve rainbow body. Do you think he didn't achieve buddhahood? 

[Wells]

.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Jeff]

12 minutes ago, Wells said:

 

According to the dzogchen view, he did not achieve buddhahood.

And that's not just my personal opinion.

 

Any specifics that you can share with that point? Some sutra or something?

[zafrogzen]

1 hour ago, Wells said:

Zen guys don't achieve rainbow body, therefore they don't achieve buddhahood.

 

Perhaps.

 

In zen, and most Mahayana, three bodies are spoken of, which could be translated as -- the physical body, the dream (rainbow?) body, and the body of reality (many names for this as Gunther could likely recount).

 

In my not-so-humble experience, such mental fabrications and phenomenal appearances are only a distraction to zazen samadhi and finding our true body.

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by zafrogzen

[Mark Foote]

The rice fly of zazen samadhi (Lake County, California):

 

 

The Pomos around the lake certainly had their dreamers--I guess most First Nations peoples did.

Gautama did not perform miracles (although he said that the greatest miracle of all was to teach).  Wonder if that's why some Tibetans say he never achieved the "rainbow (dream) body"?

Edited December 4, 2017 by Mark Foote

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[thelerner]

5 minutes ago, Wells said:

Lopon Tenzin Namdak, Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings, page 41:

"From the standpoint of Dzogchen, this creating of a Gyulu through the unification of subtle prana and mind (the Tantric method) and the attaining of rebirth as a Deva in the Akanistha heaven (the Sutra method) do not represent real Buddhahood. Nor does an Arhat, the state realized through the Hinayana method, represent a real Buddha."

I have no idea of what he's talking about, but I admire that he's framing it from within his schools philosophy, rather then stating the position as an absolute. 

 

I was just in a discussion about chi/ki.  And I could say from a Japanese angle, ie Ki-Aikido Ki is considered this.. the definition and understand is pretty different then Chinese schools, but that's not to say its wrong or doesn't have its uses.  It'd be wrong for me to state it as an absolute.  So, Namdak saying from '..the standpoint of Dzogchen', is using his school's viewpoint, which I believe is from a smaller subset, ie Tibetan Buddhism. 

 

 

[Wells]

15 minutes ago, thelerner said:

I have no idea of what he's talking about, but I admire that he's framing it from within his schools philosophy, rather then stating the position as an absolute. 

 

I was just in a discussion about chi/ki.  And I could say from a Japanese angle, ie Ki-Aikido Ki is considered this.. the definition and understand is pretty different then Chinese schools, but that's not to say its wrong or doesn't have its uses.  It'd be wrong for me to state it as an absolute.  So, Namdak saying from '..the standpoint of Dzogchen', is using his school's viewpoint, which I believe is from a smaller subset, ie Tibetan Buddhism.

 

Well, the sign of the dissolution of the physical body into space or into light can be found in several cultures. Christian saints ascending to heaven, taoist monks "ascending in broad daylight" (celestial immortality) or "vanishing into the void", Damo (Bodhidharma) not leaving a corpse but just one sandal,...

I guess that all these guys achieved true buddhahood / true immortality / true sainthood etc.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Wells

[thelerner]

True, yet to my perhaps uneducated eyes, such things are legendary.. rare, somewhat mythic.  Like virgins births, if Caesar and Socrates were virgin births then its tacked on to any would be messiahs resume.  

 

Can't help thinking you've got well known saintly people, who've done miracles etc., who simply die, just like the rest of us.  So, if an average monk disappears without a trace, he must have been a saint who hit rainbow body and left without a forwarding address, whereas the heavy hitters running the school will often simply die and be buried.

 

You've told the story of a Westerner who disappeared from a monastery and it was assumed he must have hit ascendance, but seems he could have simply slipped away in the middle of the night.  Likewise the saintly people who've died might have been living buddha, they just didn't disappear at death for whatever reasons. 

[Wells]

43 minutes ago, thelerner said:

True, yet to my perhaps uneducated eyes, such things are legendary.. rare, somewhat mythic.  Like virgins births, if Caesar and Socrates were virgin births then its tacked on to any would be messiahs resume.  

 

Can't help thinking you've got well known saintly people, who've done miracles etc., who simply die, just like the rest of us.  So, if an average monk disappears without a trace, he must have been a saint who hit rainbow body and left without a forwarding address, whereas the heavy hitters running the school will often simply die and be buried.

 

You've told the story of a Westerner who disappeared from a monastery and it was assumed he must have hit ascendance, but seems he could have simply slipped away in the middle of the night.  Likewise the saintly people who've died might have been living buddha, they just didn't disappear at death for whatever reasons. 

 

Buddhas are made regularly to this day.

In some cases the practitioners simply vanish suddenly into thin air...literally.

But, a lot of "medium" and "small" rainbow body (buddhahood attainment at death or in bardo after death) cases are pretty well documented. In those cases, the dead body over a course of 7 - 14 days slowly vanishes completely, or just hair and nails remain or shrinks to a certain point (including bones). Some monks in tibetan monasteries today photograph the shrinking bodies of their masters step by step and post those photos on facebook...

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Wells

[Wells]

Jesus? Medium rainbow body (complete dissolution of the physical body after death in bardo).

[Mark Foote]

4 hours ago, Wells said:

Jesus? Medium rainbow body (complete dissolution of the physical body after death in bardo).

 

Do you have a personal experience of these things you can relate?

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Mark Foote

[C T]

rainbows are only seen to appear & vanish, when in actuality they are an insubstantial manifestation that occurs when causes and conditions meet... they are mirages, never existing nor not existing on its own side. Im not sure its an appropriate metaphor to use as a comparison to the rainbow body phenomena, but can understand why it was a metaphorical choice, seeing its common association with the term 'rainbow body'. 

 

In Dzogchen the emphasis has been, and always will remain focussed on what is termed the 'View', and the whole process of practice is to first recognise what this View is so that doubts about its actual nature is put to rest, then to stabilise this View thru practice so that it gradually remains in one's consciousness with increasing frequency, and lastly, this View becomes a permanently transformed aspect of one's consciousness, and is then etched into one's being, which is a rare enough occurrence. In Buddhist Dzogchen this final leap-over has to be permanent in order for the rainbow body to manifest at some point, and it is also at this level only that one will develop the vision to recognise those who have secretly attained the seed of final rainbow body transformation. Prior to this level, all talk about what is rainbow body and related discussions can happen only on an intellectual level, and shall remain speculative endeavours at best. 

[Gunther]

So Bodhidharma left ONE sandal behind. That says it all.

The true, original, Zen, bodhi, Buddha-mind is the ordinary mind functioning through wisdom(non-self) and compassion (all is one)

Let's not forget to look at the social political aspect of religion/spirituality.Tibet was a feudal system as was China/Japan

The simple truth is not to be served to the masses. They are given explanations)elaborations) complications) to obstruct reality 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Gunther

[Wells]

7 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Do you have a personal experience of these things you can relate?

 

The established definitions of the different sorts of rainbow body allow a pretty reliable classification.

 

What do you mean with "personal experience"? If I have achieved rainbow body?

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[C T]

3 minutes ago, Wells said:

 

Source? This sounds like a baseless rumor made up inside a certain sort of follower community for the psychological reason of self-assurence. I am repeating myself, but so far no dzogchen guru acknowledged a case of rainbow body in the western dzogchen community.

 

 

I doubt that there is any dzogchen practitioner in the west who is above that.

You might well be right.