Career and Cultivation

[Kongming]

Something I've peen pondering lately, hopefully I can receive some input and ideas from like minded people here on the forum:

 

For one dedicated to cultivation (be it on a Daoist path, a Buddhist path, or some other path) in the modern world and who isn't independently wealthy (most people I'd imagine), how does one balance ones career/work life and cultivation? Is there enough hours in the day to devote to a full time career and the necessary work to see the path through to its end (immorality/attaining the Dao, Buddhahood, etc.) for those with such an ambition? In the past many became monastics or hermits to accomplish those ends, and those that continued to be in the world lived in a world less hectic in most regards compared to our own. As such, how realistic is it to pursue the path while also having a career necessary for survival?

 

On another note, which careers in the modern world do you think are particularly suited to cultivators? I'd imagine artists and musicians of various sorts would find their work to be quite compatible, but then the ability to be an artist and have employment/survive in the modern world isn't something everyone can accomplish. Contrarily, I'd imagine some sort of work that taxes you so physically or mentally that you are constantly exhausted would not be conducive to cultivation.

 

I ask this question both out of general curiosity and for personal reasons. I myself have long since decided to dedicate my life to the path and for the past few years have bounced around various freelancing, part-time, and otherwise unfulfilling forms of work with barely the ability to survive. Personally the things that interest me (cultivation, esotericism, art, music, philosophy, history, mythology, poetry, culture, language learning, etc.) aren't fields where much of a career can be made outside perhaps academia which I have little interest in for various reasons. I've been considering getting into IT(networking) as a means to live independently, but I sometimes fear at how much conflict there will be with the pursuit of the path and my own real interests.

 

What are your thoughts on these areas?

Edited November 14, 2016 by Kongming

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Great thread topic Kongming.
 
Confucianism is one of the few if not the only "spiritual path" that tries to unify "spiritual growth" with "worldly success", however in the West it is very much misunderstood.  I don't have much time to post now, but as a starting point I will quote this previous post of mine on Confucianism:
 

Duty is far more of a Confucian concept than a "Taoist" one, though by "Taoist", I don't necessarily mean Daoist.

The Western Inscription of Zhang Zai is a beautiful statement of this duty and its ontological roots:
 

Heaven is my Father
and Earth is my Mother,
and even such small creatures as we
find intimate shelter in their embrace.


Therefore that which fills the universe
I regard as my own body,

and that which directs the universe
I consider as my own nature.

All people are my brothers and sisters,
and all things are my companions.

...

Wealth, honor, blessing and benefits
are meant for the enrichment of my life;
while poverty, humble status, worries and sorrows
are meant to help me find fulfillment.


In life I follow and serve Heaven and Earth;
In death I will be at peace.

(Portal Page to Professor David Mason's San-Shin Site)

I'll bet you didn't think that Confucians had that type of stuff in them, did you?

And what is Professor David Maon's San-Shin Site about? Well, in his own words it's:

all about Korean Mountain-spirits and their shrines,
Korea's sacred peaks and mountain-worship traditions

Some people here may find it an interesting place to visit.

I'll try to expand on this as time permits.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: I removed an "and" that didn't justify its means.

[dwai]

Something I've peen pondering lately, hopefully I can receive some input and ideas from like minded people here on the forum:

 

For one dedicated to cultivation (be it on a Daoist path, a Buddhist path, or some other path) in the modern world and who isn't independently wealthy (most people I'd imagine), how does one balance ones career/work life and cultivation? Is there enough hours in the day to devote to a full time career and the necessary work to see the path through to its end (immorality/attaining the Dao, Buddhahood, etc.) for those with such an ambition? In the past many became monastics or hermits to accomplish those ends, and those that continued to be in the world lived in a world less hectic in most regards compared to our own. As such, how realistic is it to pursue the path while also having a career necessary for survival?

 

On another note, which careers in the modern world do you think are particularly suited to cultivators? I'd imagine artists and musicians of various sorts would find their work to be quite compatible, but then the ability to be an artist and have employment/survive in the modern world isn't something everyone can accomplish. Contrarily, I'd imagine some sort of work that taxes you so physically or mentally that you are constantly exhausted would not be conducive to cultivation.

 

I ask this question both out of general curiosity and for personal reasons. I myself have long since decided to dedicate my life to the path and for the past few years have bounced around various freelancing, part-time, and otherwise unfulfilling forms of work with barely the ability to survive. Personally the things that interest me (cultivation, esotericism, art, music, philosophy, history, mythology, poetry, culture, language learning, etc.) aren't fields where much of a career can be made outside perhaps academia which I have little interest in for various reasons. I've been considering getting into IT(networking) as a means to live independently, but I sometimes fear at how much conflict there will be with the pursuit of the path and my own real interests.

 

What are your thoughts on these areas?

 

I've been thinking about this very subject for a while now. Especially as I start getting deeper in the meditation/cultivation process, a sense of detachment has been setting in over the past 5-6 years. It is getting really profound now, so much so that I question (at times) the role of working for a livelihood when one wants to meditate and cultivate. IMHO, this is why people became monks and nuns and went to live in a temple or monastery somewhere. This provided them the support system and the discipline needed to practice.

 

However, that said, most of us are householders and is not possible to renounce samsara and go live as hermits (at least not until we reach a certain point in time..for me for eg. at least until my kid is an adult). However, I've also heard Masters say that "it is easy to run away and become a hermit, but the true test of one's practice is when they cultivate while immersed in samsara"...

 

So after prefacing my response thus, I want to say this -

 

The primary objective (imho) of Daoist, Buddhist or Hindu cultivation/meditation systems is to let go of the Ego self and become empty and free. Free from what? Free from positions, from likes and dislikes, and just be and become an instrument of the higher intelligence (one may call it God, Dao, Brahman, True Self, Not-Self...). So the actions that happen through us are without volition. In order to do this, one has to work on letting go of the mind itself.  Eventually it is a sort of surrender...with no concern for the worldly affairs one surrenders to a higher power. This is what guides and moves us.

 

Until that can happen, it's best to find a profession that provides us with at least 2-3 hours of time when we can practice. I think this is possible in almost any profession. I practice either early in the morning, then again in the afternoon (sometimes during lunch) and then again at night. I work in IT  and early on in my career, when I used to work with a pager (for support 24x7), I'd squeeze in an hour or so of practice anyway. It was harder to do. Now, I don't have to carry one anymore, so have a more predictable schedule to practice regularly. Now I practice 2-3 hours a day.

 

My Teacher said I need to do at least 4 hours to progress further...but the need for long practice sessions (1+ hours) is less. As long as I get one 60-75 min session in the morning, I can break my practice up to 10-15 min sessions through out the day. Then I can do another 40-60 mins at night. I still seem to manage to deal with my familial duties (wife, kid, dog, cleaning, etc etc). It is important that the spouse or partner supports and understands the need to practice though. I am usually practice the long sessions before they wake up or when they are asleep. 

 

 

It is a matter of resolve essentially. If your practice is important for you, you will practice, come hell or high-water. 

Ask yourself what you can give up in order to practice?

Do you watch a lot of TV? If you watch 2 hrs of TV a day, can you give up 1 hr and practice instead?

Do you have an active social life? If so, can you cut back and practice instead?

Do you sleep 8-10 hrs a day? Can you give up 2 hours of sleep for practice?

and so on...

[Kongming]

I suppose for me the issue is that by nature and inclination I am attracted to the ascetic/sadhu/hermit lifestyle (not so much the ideal of say the Trappist monk who remains in one building and is totally cut off from the world for the rest of ones life) but unfortunately our society has no real use or support systems for these sorts of people and especially not within the tradition which most interests me, i.e. Daoism, which of course has only recently been starting to spread outside the Sinosphere and has a limited presence in the West.

 

What I mean by this is I am not a career-ist per say, I have no interest in a career outside of its utility of providing me with a means to survive and live independently. It's unrealistic of course and hence my search for an ideal balance in this area, but if I had my way I would dedicate all my time to spiritual, artistic, and intellectual endeavors.

 

I think another problem is the whole system of the 8 hour, 5 day workweek. Say for example I pursue IT as mentioned in my initial post and secured a position as a network administrator, in most cases (at least that I am aware of), these positions are almost all full-time. But what if I wish to live a simple, ascetic-like lifestyle and don't need or want the amount of money that comes from working full time? People can't just pick and choose to work part time or to fulfill ones financial needs as it suits them.

 

In short, finding the necessary balance between work and cultivation in the modern world seems a difficult nut to crack. It'd be nice to find some sort of ideal that would allow one to successfully fulfill both in harmony, but is there even such an ideal?

[MooNiNite]

Find a job you love...

[MooNiNite]

You could probably make more money in the IT field but the fact that IT is tied with technology and the technology industry has innovation, new products, and quite a bit of uncertainty---well, it has a lot of stuff that makes stability difficult to attain. 

 

Just learn Java. Plenty of stability and lack of innovation.

[dwai]

@kongming in infrastructure fields (network admin/system admin) there is usually no concept of fixed schedules. Before I switched to what I currently do, I used to participate in pager rotation one week each month (might be even more frequent if you are in a 2-3 person shop). That means there I had to practice when I could. So

I made it a point to sincerely wish that I don't get disturbed while I'm practicing. Funny thing is, 99% of the time the pager wouldn't go off during my practice time.

 

However the trend in the industry is such that more and more IT companies are moving away from the ball and chain model of work hours. If you can be flexible with your schedule, the employers can be flexible with their's.

 

It's more prevalent in the Silicon Valley than in middle America at this point. No idea how the situation is else where.

 

Personally I too have been of the idea that we should be given a goal and asked to finish it within a stipulated period of time. If you can finish said work in 8h, there should be no pressure to have you justify the 32h you have not spent on it...you can and should work on self improvement (educate yourself, 'mediate a good 30-60m per day when you can).

[Kongming]

Find a job you love...

 

A "job" I'd love would be to be a Daoshi, dedicated to self-cultivation on the one hand and teaching/helping others on the other hand. Other jobs I'd love would be involved with art/music/aesthetics or something dealing with historical/cultural areas that interest me. None of these things seem very realistic in modern America. I perhaps would have liked to be a teacher, especially if teachers were how they were in the older world (say like the Confucian teacher in old China) but pre-university education seems generally atrocious and all the dedication of time/money to become a professor also doesn't seem to suit me. So bereft of being able to do what I love for a living, I figure finding something that I don't hate and that allows me the ability to do what I love while not working is the best compromise.

 

One further problem for me is that I am already 27 years old and a college drop out (didn't want to get in debt and didn't know what I wanted to do so I figured that if and when I do return to school it would be out of my own pocket.)

 

Really one of my plans has been to go to China to teach English so I could study Daoism further and master Mandarin (already semi-fluent through self-study), but I need a degree to do so, and to get a degree I need money, etc.

 

 

@kongming in infrastructure fields (network admin/system admin) there is usually no concept of fixed schedules. Before I switched to what I currently do, I used to participate in pager rotation one week each month (might be even more frequent if you are in a 2-3 person shop). That means there I had to practice when I could. So

I made it a point to sincerely wish that I don't get disturbed while I'm practicing. Funny thing is, 99% of the time the pager wouldn't go off during my practice time.

 

However the trend in the industry is such that more and more IT companies are moving away from the ball and chain model of work hours. If you can be flexible with your schedule, the employers can be flexible with their's.

 

It's more prevalent in the Silicon Valley than in middle America at this point. No idea how the situation is else where.

 

Personally I too have been of the idea that we should be given a goal and asked to finish it within a stipulated period of time. If you can finish said work in 8h, there should be no pressure to have you justify the 32h you have not spent on it...you can and should work on self improvement (educate yourself, 'mediate a good 30-60m per day when you can).

 

So working in networking is a bit difficult to attain any stable schedule and thus may prove a hamper on practice huh? Which IT field do you think there is, if any, that one could break into without a 4 year degree/just certifications and would be optimal for the topic we are discussing out of curiosity?

 

Another point for the general thrust of the thread is that finding a career where one could work from home seems like it would be beneficial insofar as it cuts out commuting, is more conducive to a hermit way of living, and one could find perhaps a more suitable environment to practice in while one works or while on break, etc.

[idquest]

Kongming,

 

How many hours a day do you cultivate right now?

[Kongming]

Kongming,

 

How many hours a day do you cultivate right now?

 

Hello,

 

Currently I am meditating for half an hour in the morning, doing about half an hour of qigong/neigong around noon, another 20 minutes of the same qigong/neigong a few hours later, zhan zhuang for 10 minutes at a time at least once a day but sometimes up to three, and what I consider my "main" qigong/neigong exercise in the evening perhaps for 30-40 minutes including a short meditation afterward, and finally before going to sleep I try to lie in bed doing a deep breathing meditation for anywhere between 10-30 minutes. This schedule is of course subject to change depending on what work I have to do or other conditions that may arise. Besides this I try to maintain clarity/stillness, detachment, etc. throughout the day and during work.

 

So I suppose altogether at this time, usually something around 3 hours give or take, sometimes more sometimes less. Of course as I progress further along and begin to learn neidan as I desire in the future, more time will likely be needed to be allotted. This could be done by doing less sleeping and other activities of course, but what I worry most about in regards to full time work is the levels of exhaustion or confused schedules that may arise from it.

[dwai]

A "job" I'd love would be to be a Daoshi, dedicated to self-cultivation on the one hand and teaching/helping others on the other hand. Other jobs I'd love would be involved with art/music/aesthetics or something dealing with historical/cultural areas that interest me. None of these things seem very realistic in modern America. I perhaps would have liked to be a teacher, especially if teachers were how they were in the older world (say like the Confucian teacher in old China) but pre-university education seems generally atrocious and all the dedication of time/money to become a professor also doesn't seem to suit me. So bereft of being able to do what I love for a living, I figure finding something that I don't hate and that allows me the ability to do what I love while not working is the best compromise.

 

One further problem for me is that I am already 27 years old and a college drop out (didn't want to get in debt and didn't know what I wanted to do so I figured that if and when I do return to school it would be out of my own pocket.)

 

Really one of my plans has been to go to China to teach English so I could study Daoism further and master Mandarin (already semi-fluent through self-study), but I need a degree to do so, and to get a degree I need money, etc.

 

 

 

So working in networking is a bit difficult to attain any stable schedule and thus may prove a hamper on practice huh? Which IT field do you think there is, if any, that one could break into without a 4 year degree/just certifications and would be optimal for the topic we are discussing out of curiosity?

 

Another point for the general thrust of the thread is that finding a career where one could work from home seems like it would be beneficial insofar as it cuts out commuting, is more conducive to a hermit way of living, and one could find perhaps a more suitable environment to practice in while one works or while on break, etc.

 

Its not just a matter of "choosing" a field to work in. In my experience (been in the industry for 20 years now), if you don't like what you are doing, you are going to be miserable. I'd recommend finding something that you enjoy doing.

 

For eg: some people love to develop software...as it is a creative thing for them. I have done some software development in the past and found that it truly does consume my creative energies when I "CREATE" the software (rather than just develop code based on some else's specs). But it all involves being sincere in learning and playing the role. If you don't enjoy IT, then find something that you do enjoy (or will enjoy). Perhaps become a journalist? If you want to stay with tech, become a tech journalist. Or anything else you enjoy.

 

I told my teacher about my quandry wrt. practice time vs. work. He said we should do what is lotted to us in life (job, family, etc) without hesitation and to the best of our abilities. He said "treat these like the fires that burn your karmic debts".  The way to burn these debts off, without accruing more, is to do the work without attachment to results, but to the best of our abilities.

[Bubbles]

Over the years I fancied quittting my job, changing completely to be more attuned to what I thought to be my spiritual goals etc. It turned out to be just rubbish. Each time, I was gently but clearly brought back to what I was doing in the first place.

 

I then understood what my master was saying about real spiritual life: spiritual life is not doing spiritual things, it is doing things in a spiritual way. No matter what life is your life, either being a window cleaner or a car seller or a trader; having a family or not, etc.

All has to be taken in not as a burden but as an honor and one should do whatever has to be done like dwai said: without hesitation and to the best of our abilities. And my master would have added *with love*.

 

All that to say that, especially if one is young, be careful with fancying yourself with pursuing a 'spiritual career' like being a priest or a monk of some kind. Some are really called for that, but most aren't. It may just be an attempt to avoid the lot that awaits for each of us. Landing back on the ground may be tough.

[Brian]

The entry-point into IT for many is either Helpdesk or PC Tech. It is not uncommon to find these requiring minimal experience or training (they are entry-level positions) and both tend to be hourly jobs in the US (non-exempt status under FLSA). Employers generally don't want to pay overtime rates so they tend to be very clock-oriented in that regard. Additionally, many employers are shifting this sort of role to part-time to avoid the ACA requirements for providing healthcare benefits (except for very small employers). Now, trying to make ends meet on a part-time entry-level position introduces its own challenges, mind you, but that's a possibility which might afford lots of "free time."

 

With experience, opportunities expand. Some roles are very response-oriented but the days of living by the beeper are fading. Even positions which involve inconsistent hours or occasional long hours often have periods of inactivity built-in (for example, waiting for a large database server to reboot might provide enough time to get in a practice session). Depending on your individual practice, you might find that "time" becomes malleable, too. Personally, I find that more practice time creates more practice time, if you follow me.

 

The same role can vary wildly depending on the organization, too. Personally, I prefer a lean shop in which people often wear more than one hat and days don't all look the same. I hired a system administrator once who had just come from a position at Corning, though, and he wanted a list of exactly what his tasks would be each day and he was very uncomfortable with a changing landscape -- he only lasted a few months before returning to Corning. Generalization vs. specialization.

 

That said, I would underline what dwai is saying! Unless you find yourself in a bind (which happens), choose a path you enjoy rather than one which merely meets your needs. If it isn't fun then it's work. It still might not always be fun but...

 

Do an honest, soul-searching self-evaluation: what are you good at, what do you like doing, what do you hate doing, what do you suck at, etc. Then look at the list of positives and see how they might be combined to fit different job requirements. Make an effort to identify your own preconceived assumptions and to relax boundaries. You may find that opportunities exist in fields you've never considered.

 

EDIT: Meant to add... With few exceptions, formal education needn't be a life sentence. Among my best IT folks over the years, for instance, have been an attorney (he realized during his final year that he really didn't like attorneys but he now enjoys teaching constitutional law part-time), a music major (an excellent programmer who is volunteer music director at her church), a history major (who became an awesome network engineer), and a criminal investigator (she loves digging into processes and documenting them).

Edited November 15, 2016 by Brian

[Kongming]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I've been mulling it over the past few days and I keep coming back to something I've been interested in for years that, while perhaps not a permanent solution, is something I genuinely would like to do and would help with my interests, namely teaching English in China/Taiwan. The reason I am interested in this is obviously it would put me in direct contact with Daoism and other areas I have an interest in learning (I am interested in learning the guqin, shan shui painting, and mastering Chinese.)  As noted, I actually have a general interest in languages and like discussing the Chinese language, its relation to English, and teaching others either of the two topics (despite the fact that I have a basic to mid level fluency if that...not too bad but still a lot to learn in other words.)

 

Problem is to legally do that I need a four year degree and I really don't want to wait four years and don't have the money to spend on school anyway. I am aware of some degree programs in Taiwan for Chinese as a second language and I hear that Taiwan has some generous scholarships for foreign students (some even claiming the ability to study nearly for free), so I think I will apply my efforts in this area and hope for the best.

 

That said I still will continue to study an IT field (networking as of now, perhaps with a focus on Cisco security later) as a back up and means to earn enough money to pay for my own schooling in case the previous plan falls through.

 

Anyone hear have any experience either earning a degree in Taiwan or China or teaching English there with perhaps some advice?

 

More broadly, rather than my own personal problems feel free to offer any further insight on the nature of ones work life and cultivation life, how to balance them, advice in these areas, etc. as I am certainly interested in learning as much as I can.

[ChiForce]

I think we are dealing with a dualistic reality or dualism.  Hehehehehhe.....which it should not exist in the first place.  Unfortunately, dualism or dualistic thinking is all part of our unrealized consciousness.  Yes, you have already realized the impermanent nature of your ego self.  Unfortunately, like most people cultivating, we are still trying to struggle in dealing with the external world we are living.  What we can and want to do is often restricted by money and wealth...and knowledge and personal and professional networks.  Very often, being burdened by our past karma.  

 

How do we realize the impermanent nature of our external world, and, thereby, we can overcome and be everywhere where we want to be?  I don't have the slightness ideas.

 

For me, I feel like I am waiting for something to happen.  Have been feeling this way for several years after I left my old job.  I have tried to be more active in my decision making process.  However, I don't have the slightness ideas what I should do or should be doing.  In my visions, it seems that I need to go back to school and to earn a master degree about "macro management" (I have a college degree already but is useless).  I don't have the money for a MA education.