Zhan Zhuang and Neidan

[Kongming]

I've read and heard various references to zhan zhuang having a relationship to neidan or there possibly being a form of zhan zhuang specifically intended for neidan but can't seem to find out much about if such a relationship truly exists or not. In short, what is the relationship if any of zhan zhuang to neidan? Is there really a specific neidan oriented zhan zhuang practice? More broadly, is there a relationship between neidan and the spiritual goals of Daoist cultivation (whether neidan or not)? Anywhere I can learn more about these topics?

 

Thanks.

[opendao]

I've read and heard various references to zhan zhuang having a relationship to neidan or there possibly being a form of zhan zhuang specifically intended for neidan but can't seem to find out much about if such a relationship truly exists or not. In short, what is the relationship if any of zhan zhuang to neidan? Is there really a specific neidan oriented zhan zhuang practice? More broadly, is there a relationship between neidan and the spiritual goals of Daoist cultivation (whether neidan or not)? Anywhere I can learn more about these topics?

 

Hi,

 

not sure what do you mean exactly by "spiritual goals of Daoist cultivation" (please elaborate, it's interesting), but there is a direct relationship anyway: Neidan IS the goal. And the path at the same time.

 

Yes, there are special forms of zhang zhuang. Various in various schools.

[Kongming]

Hi,

 

not sure what do you mean exactly by "spiritual goals of Daoist cultivation" (please elaborate, it's interesting), but there is a direct relationship anyway: Neidan IS the goal. And the path at the same time.

 

Yes, there are special forms of zhang zhuang. Various in various schools.

 

Hi, by spiritual goals of Daoism I meant activities that lead toward greater clarity/stillness, are supplements or are part of the process of neidan, and which ultimately lead to attaining the Dao/becoming an immortal (得道成仙.) I know some practices (like various forms of Qigong) are more of a medical and martial nature than purely for spiritual goals, whereas while I am interested in having good health too, I am mostly interested in these areas as part of the spiritual and/or alchemical path. 

 

So where does zhan zhuang fit in this regard and how is zhan zhuang related to the path of neidan?

Edited November 14, 2016 by Kongming

[Wu Ming Jen]

zhan zhuang involves a form of standing meditation - one where you become "mindful" of every detail of your posture and alignment.  In so doing you develop a foundation on which you can build structure.  That structure should then be solid enough, and dependable enough, to permit efficient, effective action.

 

Unlike other forms of meditation, martial meditation has more specific goals.  One of these is improving efficiency and efficacy of martial movement and the foundation of all of this is how you stand.   

 

​The taoist arts are all unified so depending on one's own interest apply the principles every day.

 

Training intent has very positive applications guiding chi in this sense describes this channelling of thought into efficient action

[joeblast]

macrocosmic=involvement of legvessels

[Wu Ming Jen]

Love it, Grand heavenly circulation.

[Kongming]

Thanks, so I take it that someone interested in pursuing a neidan path would benefit from practice of zhan zhuang? Is there a particular zhan zhuang posture that is recommended for this purpose?

[SeekerOfHealing]

There are zhan zhuang for yuan qi and union of yin and yang. 

 

I must not agree with fellow bummer about "scanning your body" or anything. In authentic teachings zhan zhuang is always connected to ru jing which means emptiness. No need to scan or be mindful of anything, zhan zhuang works only in pair with emptiness anything else will be obstructions. 

[liminal_luke]

Standing practice isn`t an expertise of mine, but my understanding is that it opens and clears the channels so that earth and heaven energies can flow and integrate.  What does this have to do with Neidan?  Pretty much everything, I`d imagine.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

This is a very complex and problem fraught topic, since the connections are many, and yet the historical argument on the subject is filled with competing ideas.

 

Technically, things such as standing post and qi gong all come from Daoist practice.  As early as the Tianshi school and possibly even before, Daoists were doing exercises called "Fu Qi," or "swallowing Qi."  These exercises would have had both physical and mental aspects and were focused around bringing in Qi to the body.  many of these types of exercise could be accurately described as Dao Yin or daoist yoga.   Later, especially in the Shang Qing school, Daoists undertook a more complex approach to meditation which often focused on "Cun Si," or "visualization," which was based around visualizing certain things either while in seated meditation or during ceremony.  This also lead to the development of "Xie Shu" Daoist sorcery, which is basically the means by which Daoists are able to convey messages and energy seemingly through telepathy.  These divergent ideas and Zuo wang style meditation set the groundwork for what would become nei dan.

The issue here is where you personally believe Neidan began.  I believe that the root of Neidan is in Can Tong Qi and The Jade Emperor Embryonic Breathing Classic, as well as Yin Fu Jing, but that Nei Dan didn't become mature until Lu Dong Bin and then Zhang Boduan.

Looking at Zhang Boduan's theory from understanding reality, he specifically criticizes "Fu Qi" and Daoist yoga and says that they are not the real Dao practice.   He likely said this because he felt it was important to focus only on cultivating the energy and mind with the mind and not through external practices.  So in this sense, the Southern school of Neidan is extremely internal and pre heaven.  On the other hand, the Northern school pulled many ideas in from different schools and has many different types of practice which in modern times even include various forms of Wushu.   The Northern neidan school was also based around the idea that it was important to first cultivate Xing (nature) before ming (life), and thus, the structure of the practice allows for more freedom of physical movement, so it can include moving qi gong, standing post etc... While the southern school tends to hold that "Shen xin bu dong,"  or "The body and mind don't move," is extremely important, so that seems to suggest that Qi gong is not part of the practice.

Later schools such as the middle school believed it was possible first to achieve elixir through unmoving seated meditation, and then later to extend that practice to physical movement.  The Middle Harmony classic is essentially set on the idea that once you have achieved complete stillness, it is possible to move in harmony from "the centre from which affection, anger, sadness, and joy have not yet emerged," so that seems to suggest that they believed that after Dan was achieved, then it could be applied to physical movement.   Other later schools such as Qian Feng Pai and so on also have similar concepts.
 

In the 20th century, there were a number of Taijiquan classics written with Nei dan in mind, they are called "Taijiquan 13 Dan," and have been criticized by many taiji players as fake, but in my opinion they are real, but very difficult to practice.

That is one side of the coin of the twentieth century drive to put movement and nei dan together, but they other side of the equation, as represented by Chen yingning and Jiang weiqiao was that although movement arts, qi gong, standing and so on were valuable to cultivate post heaven qi, they could not "Change the spirit to emptiness," and that the only way to do this was through silent meditation focused on the pre heaven state.

 

My personal opinion is that Chen yingning was right and that seated meditation is the best way to achieve the spiritual level of practice and to change the mind back to its original state, but that qi gong, standing and so on, are very good ways to cultivate post heaven qi and can be used directly to assist with your meditaiton training.

To that end, I usually do Qi gong before I meditate, because it helps me enter a deep meditation state much faster and helps my body be comfortable to sit for longer.

 

I know there are many opinions on this, so I'm not trying to pretend to be totally right, but at least from my own personal experience as well as the recommendation of my teacher, this is the conclusion I've come to on the subject.

[Miffymog]

 

My personal opinion is that Chen yingning was right and that seated meditation is the best way to achieve the spiritual level of practice and to change the mind back to its original state, but that qi gong, standing and so on, are very good ways to cultivate post heaven qi and can be used directly to assist with your meditaiton training.

To that end, I usually do Qi gong before I meditate, because it helps me enter a deep meditation state much faster and helps my body be comfortable to sit for longer.

 

I know there are many opinions on this, so I'm not trying to pretend to be totally right, but at least from my own personal experience as well as the recommendation of my teacher, this is the conclusion I've come to on the subject.

 

 

I've definitely found meditative states are easier to achieve through sitting as opposed to standing. But at the moment I only have enough motivation for a relatively short practice each morning and I get more overall benefit from a stand than a sit so that's where I'm at at the moment. As far as the OP goes, I guess the best thing would be to do as SBHHE suggests and use both appropriately

[joeblast]

the vehicle needs to be kept in good shape and repaired from the damages of long sits

 

that helps it sit even longer

[Andrei]

In the neidan texts there are 4 ways of cultivation: sitting, standing, walking-moving and laying down. All four have benefits but also harm the body in some way through excess. So this is why a practitioner should have a balance of each of them. If you spend 8 hours of your day sleeping (laying down) and another 8 hours sitting on a chair in front of a computer then the remaining 8 hours should be spent on standing and walking/moving. If your working hours is standing then the remaining of leisure time should be spent in sitting. And so on, depends on your lifestyle, your occupation. If you don't follow these guidelines, the body will get sick in the end. It's your choice of how you want to spend your life.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

In the neidan texts there are 4 ways of cultivation: sitting, standing, walking-moving and laying down. All four have benefits but also harm the body in some way through excess. So this is why a practitioner should have a balance of each of them. If you spend 8 hours of your day sleeping (laying down) and another 8 hours sitting on a chair in front of a computer then the remaining 8 hours should be spent on standing and walking/moving. If your working hours is standing then the remaining of leisure time should be spent in sitting. And so on, depends on your lifestyle, your occupation. If you don't follow these guidelines, the body will get sick in the end. It's your choice of how you want to spend your life.

 

As far as I know (and you'll correct me if I'm wrong), this idea came to prominence under Wang Chongyang in the first generation of the Northern school and is the key feature difference between the Southern and Northern schools.    My hypothesis is that this particular modality works better under the system of neidan which "first cultivates xing and later cultivates ming," rather than the school of thought which "first cultivates ming and later xing."    This is an important distinction since it means that the prior assumes that the correct cultivation of xing will naturally lead to realization of ming, while the latter assumes that it is important first to generate dan through complete cultivation of stillness and then later to add the element of "Xing gong" to complete the practice.

I think this particular problem is very well answered from schools post Zhang Sanfeng which suggested "Xing and Ming dual cultivation," which in my personal opinion perfectly realizes the potential of both ideas.   One cautionary note is that moving and standing cultivation make it extremely hard to enter the "mystery gate single portal," so as you say, it is very important to focus on all aspects, especially sitting, although YMMV of at all times of course  :) :)

[Gerard]

Dear Joe,

 

Long sits? Maybe for some, for others is counterproductive. It all depends on your animal sign: horse, dragon, monkey, rat (active power animals) NO; snake, Ox, sheep, rabbit (passive in nature) YES.

 

Buddha's most loyal disciple, Ananda

(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/hecker/wheel273.html#F_termsOfUse"]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/hecker/wheel273.html#F_termsOfUse[/url]) (he's my first source of inspiration after The Buddha) was so determined to reach enlightenment that decided before the First Buddhist Council to do this:

 

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=20101

 

Walking meditation practice the whole night prior to attaining the final goal.

 

And it did pay off!!

 

I am planning to do the same, very soon, waiting for the moment, it'll be on one of these two Fire-Metal years. I'll walk until I reach enlightenment even if I due of physical exhaustion during the process: in the rainforest and near the sea to double up my chances (water nourishing the Wood element and

trees nourishing the Fire element).

 

Edited November 19, 2016 by Gerard

[Mudfoot]

Resolve and doubt/frustration, two traditional ingrediences for triggering spiritual insight.

Practicing under trees, to aid the upward movement of energy.

Practicing near water, now had that the effect of spreading your qi?

[Ormus]

How sitting meditation can be Ming Gong  advocated by Nanzong Pai?

 

Ormus