Krishnamurti, spirituality, egocentricity, and freedom from self

[C T]

Which means we believe what we believe. However our view of reality maybe in error, so how do we know if it is in error ?

 

Where am I ? How do I know it ? What should I do ?

 

How do we obtain the reference ? From what source ? Where do we find proof that what we believe is reality is in actual fact correct ?

Maybe the error lies in the ill-conceived notion that reality is something other than what it is, and because of habitual tendencies, maybe the 'what is' seems too ordinary to be special, and that is why, in looking for something other than what is, the potential and subsequent force or energy which propels from that potential creates a distorted reality, and it becomes like a merry go round which never stops. The distortion i mean.

 

Just like some people say meditation of the breath means to observe the breath. 

What does observation of the breath entail? Certainly self-criticism is not necessary in the observation of how the breath flows in and out, and in and out. 

 

So we want to know what is involved in the simple process above. 

If we can do this, then we will have understood at least some of the fundamentals of error-free observation. 

[Jetsun]

Which means we believe what we believe. However our view of reality maybe in error, so how do we know if it is in error ?

 

Where am I ? How do I know it ? What should I do ?

 

How do we obtain the reference ? From what source ? Where do we find proof that what we believe is reality is in actual fact correct ?

If you are honest and go deep enough with your enquiry of where am I? The answer always has to be "I dont know", because when you examine what you take yourself to be a center of I can never be found, there is nothing you can specifically pin a flag on and say it is I.

[Karl]

If you are honest and go deep enough with your enquiry of where am I? The answer always has to be "I dont know", because when you examine what you take yourself to be a center of I can never be found, there is nothing you can specifically pin a flag on and say it is I.

:-)

 

Your inquiry isn't deep enough Jetsun. For who is the 'I' that doesn't know it ? Ask who that one is.

[Karl]

Maybe the error lies in the ill-conceived notion that reality is something other than what it is, and because of habitual tendencies, maybe the 'what is' seems too ordinary to be special, and that is why, in looking for something other than what is, the potential and subsequent force or energy which propels from that potential creates a distorted reality, and it becomes like a merry go round which never stops. The distortion i mean.

 

Just like some people say meditation of the breath means to observe the breath.

What does observation of the breath entail? Certainly self-criticism is not necessary in the observation of how the breath flows in and out, and in and out.

 

So we want to know what is involved in the simple process above.

If we can do this, then we will have understood at least some of the fundamentals of error-free observation.

Reality is the internal conceptual model. Our sense of the universe at any one point in time. It evolves as we receive new perceptions and make new integrations.

 

Are you suggesting we should deprive ourselves of ALL sense information and thus, whatever reality remains must therefore be true ?

 

Careful with that one, it quickly becomes a loaded pistol. There is only one way to deprive ourselves of all sense information. It's a great way to test the theory of the primacy of consciousness though rather permanent.

[Jetsun]

:-)

 

Your inquiry isn't deep enough Jetsun. For who is the 'I' that doesn't know it ? Ask who that one is.

Exactly, it still can't be found in the body or mind content

[Karl]

Exactly, it still can't be found in the body or mind content

LOL who is the one doing the finding ? Find that one.

[Jetsun]

LOL who is the one doing the finding ? Find that one.

It's impossible to say what or who that one is.

 

If you follow this out far enough you are doing self enquiry in the line of Ramana Maharshi, who says that I is just a thought which when tracked goes back to the heart, the primary I-identity thought which then breaks down leading to realisation. If you are prepared to go beyond where you are stuck Karl you could realise it

[Karl]

It's impossible to say what or who that one is.

 

If you follow this out far enough you are doing self enquiry in the line of Ramana Maharshi, who says that I is just a thought which when tracked goes back to the heart, the primary I-identity thought which then breaks down leading to realisation. If you are prepared to go beyond where you are stuck Karl you could realise it

What could 'I' realise ? ;-)

 

Self Inquiry, as the description suggests, is purely about the self. That's your journey, not mine. I can't be a passenger on your train, neither can you give me a ticket to board it.

 

I could tell you things, but then, that was another time. If you decide to board the train, then you do so alone. You are stuck on the platform. I know that because I once stood there myself.

[Jetsun]

What could 'I' realise ? ;-)

 

Self Inquiry, as the description suggests, is purely about the self. That's your journey, not mine. I can't be a passenger on your train, neither can you give me a ticket to board it.

 

I could tell you things, but then, that was another time. If you decide to board the train, then you do so alone. You are stuck on the platform. I know that because I once stood there myself.

Well I have to use convention language or there is no communication, but yeah the I won't realise anything yet there is still realisation it just isn't done by you. Without the experience it is pretty much impossible to get or understand this because the ego can't comprehend anything exists beyond its own domain.

[Karl]

Well I have to use convention language or there is no communication, but yeah the I won't realise anything yet there is still realisation it just isn't done by you. Without the experience it is pretty much impossible to get or understand this because the ego can't comprehend anything exists beyond its own domain.

I find it extremely easy to comprehend things exist beyond my immediate self. Isnt it you that denies it ?

 

Edit: rephrase as a question.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Karl

[Brian]

Reality is the internal conceptual model. Our sense of the universe at any one point in time. It evolves as we receive new perceptions and make new integrations.

 

Are you suggesting we should deprive ourselves of ALL sense information and thus, whatever reality remains must therefore be true ?

 

Careful with that one, it quickly becomes a loaded pistol. There is only one way to deprive ourselves of all sense information. It's a great way to test the theory of the primacy of consciousness though rather permanent.

Quoted for posterity.

[Brian]

I find it extremely easy to comprehend things exist beyond my immediate self. It's you that denies it.

This one, too.

[Karl]

This one, too.

I rephrased that one, so you may wish to change the quote for posterity?

[Brian]

I rephrased that one, so you may wish to change the quote for posterity?

 

You seem to miss the point of that whole "quoted for posterity" thing...

[Karl]

 

You seem to miss the point of that whole "quoted for posterity" thing...

There is no point. I'm just helping out with your thread padding OCD. Edited November 18, 2016 by Karl

[Jetsun]

I find it extremely easy to comprehend things exist beyond my immediate self. Isnt it you that denies it ?

 

Edit: rephrase as a question.

Well a lot of the day there is a localisation of awareness, which you could call an immediate self, and there are all sorts of things existing outside of that ie the rest of the world. Yet that immediate self in one sense is a functional illusion because you can't actually find anything you can put a flag on and say it is this Self, plus during certain times of the day such as meditation the sense of it isn't always there and a self can't be found distinct from the world, plus the localised awareness can go beyond the bodymind. So it is like the analogy of the wave and the ocean, you could say each wave is unique, yet it doesn't exist separate from the ocean and ultimately it's all water. Similarly even though your expression is unique a self can't be found as seperate from the wider universe and it's ultimate substance can't be discovered as distinct from anything else.

 

So Karl when you do your favourite enquiry "where am I?" what do you find? Do you find a self in your body? If so do you lose part of it if you lose a limb? Do you find a self in the thoughts, which can change at any moment and are influenced by all sorts of things outside of the mind.

[Brian]

Reality is the internal conceptual model. Our sense of the universe at any one point in time. It evolves as we receive new perceptions and make new integrations.

 

Are you suggesting we should deprive ourselves of ALL sense information and thus, whatever reality remains must therefore be true ?

 

Careful with that one, it quickly becomes a loaded pistol. There is only one way to deprive ourselves of all sense information. It's a great way to test the theory of the primacy of consciousness though rather permanent.

"Reality is the internal conceptual model" sounds remarkably similar to "reality is created by consciousness." Now reality evolves in response to an individual's perceptions and integrations? Is A no longer A, Karl? Now A is whatever one's perceptions and integrations lead them to believe A is??? What happened to statements along the lines of "Reality is an absolute and what you think about it is irrelevant; A is A & anyone who believes otherwise is a reality-denying mystic who has abandoned reason and therefore is disqualified from further discussion"? (That last quote is my paraphrasing but I'll go back and find direct quotes if you wish...)

[gatito]

Exactly, it still can't be found in the body or mind content

 

Is this what you're talking about?: -

 

[Karl]

"Reality is the internal conceptual model" sounds remarkably similar to "reality is created by consciousness." Now reality evolves in response to an individual's perceptions and integrations? Is A no longer A, Karl? Now A is whatever one's perceptions and integrations lead them to believe A is??? What happened to statements along the lines of "Reality is an absolute and what you think about it is irrelevant; A is A & anyone who believes otherwise is a reality-denying mystic who has abandoned reason and therefore is disqualified from further discussion"? (That last quote is my paraphrasing but I'll go back and find direct quotes if you wish...)

Your reality and my reality differ. Consciousness does not 'create' our reality, consciousness is the faculty of grasping existence.

 

Reality is not an absolute. I may have referred to it in that way, but if so then I'm not using the correct term. The universe is an absolute. A is A.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Karl

[Karl]

Well a lot of the day there is a localisation of awareness, which you could call an immediate self, and there are all sorts of things existing outside of that ie the rest of the world. Yet that immediate self in one sense is a functional illusion because you can't actually find anything you can put a flag on and say it is this Self, plus during certain times of the day such as meditation the sense of it isn't always there and a self can't be found distinct from the world, plus the localised awareness can go beyond the bodymind. So it is like the analogy of the wave and the ocean, you could say each wave is unique, yet it doesn't exist separate from the ocean and ultimately it's all water. Similarly even though your expression is unique a self can't be found as seperate from the wider universe and it's ultimate substance can't be discovered as distinct from anything else.

So Karl when you do your favourite enquiry "where am I?" what do you find? Do you find a self in your body? If so do you lose part of it if you lose a limb? Do you find a self in the thoughts, which can change at any moment and are influenced by all sorts of things outside of the mind.

Firstly, you do know self from 'out there' and have confirmed it. Whether you call that localised awareness or something else, you are aware that there is this self and you can direct your awareness to introspection, or extrospection.

 

I was a very diligent self inquirer Jetsun. You are asking questions for which there are no answers and for which there is no basis for answers. I talked about faith, but no one seems to grasp why faith is different to belief. I had faith. Tumbling out of the mirror it really doesn't make any sense, it's like being asked what it's like to be unconscious.

[Nungali]

 

You seem to miss the point of that whole "quoted for posterity" thing...

 

he is getting worse and funnier at the same time. 

 

I might try that one .     

 

Brian , you are an arse !

 

  < Brian quotes it so I dont run back later to edit my post >

 

Edit   to  ;  " Brian , we live in different realities ..... by the way I edited my original comment so you might want to to edit your post where you quoted me . '

 

   

[Brian]

he is getting worse and funnier at the same time. 

 

I might try that one .     

 

Brian , you are an arse !

 

  < Brian quotes it so I dont run back later to edit my post >

 

Edit   to  ;  " Brian , we live in different realities ..... by the way I edited my original comment so you might want to to edit your post where you quoted me . '

 

I have met people who are happy with blinders on but I've never met someone who demanded others wear a matching set whilst insisting they are the only ones without them. Most people, when they realize they are wearing them, begin to take them off -- even though they will discover another set underneath. Sort of like Bartholomew Cubbins and his 500 hats (only with blinders...) Or like peeling the layers off an onion to eventually find there's nothing inside but onion.

[Jetsun]

Firstly, you do know self from 'out there' and have confirmed it. Whether you call that localised awareness or something else, you are aware that there is this self and you can direct your awareness to introspection, or extrospection.

 

That is true, yet awareness can also become one with the wider awareness . Basically when awareness becomes quiet and still it stops pinging around the mind bouncing from concept to concept its real nature can be revealed, like a wave realising that its real nature is water of the entire sea. 

[dawei]

Is this what you're talking about?: -

 

 

 I rarely find links worth while... this was quite interesting.   Thanks. 

[dawei]

You are asking questions for which there are no answers and for which there is no basis for answers. 

 

Yet you respond to such questions... so if you posit an answer to a question, then the question should have an answer...