Xiao Yao Pai and other arts from China

[flowing hands]

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The reason for this brief history lesson is that it is vitally important to understand the history of China to truly understand the history of Chinese martial arts.htm

Edited November 25, 2016 by flowing hands

[Apech]

Thanks for the download.  I would be interested to know from Effilang why he felt it necessary to remove a dissenting voice from his threads.

[dawei]

As admin, I support Eff's use of Owner's Permission to keep his thread on topic as it was in a sub-forum area with a very narrow focus of systems.   

 

I'm not sure this thread really belongs here as a criticism of systems but will leave it for now.   Although I do think this is a much better way to make a dissenting point but let's be careful not to attack the person; not that it has happened yet but I hope we can maintain some level of respect in our dissent.  

 

As the attachment is not that long, I'd recommend just putting it as a post instead of a download.    I'm not sure if you want a further discussion on the attachment points but likely you'll need to drive that.

 

And was your concern just your own or are you saying the concern comes from another level ?

[SeekerOfHealing]

I wonder if I may ask and pardon me if inappropriate but I would like to compare thru flowing hands perspective what is the difference between Xiao Yao methodology of cultivation and yours flowing hand tradition? as I read there is no qi to shen transformations etc. so it got me thinking which way person attain Dao with your flow dear hands?

[grassmountiansage]

I thought I would put this on so people can openly discuss some of the arts that have emerged from China including the Tai shang Men sect or Xiao Yao Pai, who according to their site did not emerge from China until the 1990's.

 

Effilang on this board has removed my posts when I have pointed out some discrepancies in what he is saying and practicing. I find this a little childish as it should be an open discussion. Unlike him, I welcome him to comment on this thread.

 

I have uploaded a brief but precise understanding about what happened in China Under Mao and how any spiritual or martial arts that now come out of China are really only half cooked. One can see why and it is truly a problem for any potential spiritual or martial arts student to weave a path through the mine field. 

 

Effilang's Shen Gong video is an example of a complete mixture of all manner of styles (not necessarily martial/spiritual) and knowledge and is more Shaolin than he would want to admit to. It is certainly not Daoist and as Tai Sung Lo Jun lived many hundreds of years before Buddhism entered China, I don't see how he can claim that what he was doing came from Tai Sung Lo Jun. Tai Sung Lo Jun had become a realised top Immortal, he did not need to learn the Shaolin 'One finger Zen Hand' that Effilang demonstrated, many hundreds of years later as a top Immortal. Any student of Tai Sung in the Heavens, would also not be using this hand form for they would not have been taught it by Tai Sung Lo Jun.

 

Tai Sung is a top Immortal he does not do things on a whim when someone asks him to do this; he is not a servant.

 

I have offered Effilang help but he refuses even to listen to what I have to say.

 

Can we really trust the arts that have emerged from China?

 

Yes the original authentic sects and masters either fled to hong kong taiwan indonesia america and so forth or they went silent.

 

Chairman Mao was the biggest hypocrite to have ever lived!

[flowing hands]

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Edited November 25, 2016 by flowing hands

[dawei]

My part is of the medium as always between two worlds.

 

I get that we're going to disagree about some issues and we are not going to feel like we can support another's message that cuts across our path, etc...

 

But this really speaks volumes to me.   As a point of transparency, we first meet at another website where I started off somewhat critical of your position and rhetoric; I likely received some of your posts like some here do... but then I simply put aside any judgement to just see the ideas you shared... and then suddenly something different emerged:  I began to agree with you and then even sought you out to understand that in a deeper way.   So that others know, I memorized the tradition prayer in chinese.   I only tried the Fa Fu a few times but I found the prayer more important than some request to Li Erh.   This was one of likely 3 truly defining moments in my path to where I am now.   

 

The Celestial Masters founder claims he was spoken to by a deified Lao Zi.   Do you agree with that?

[gatito]

As admin, I support Eff's use of Owner's Permission to keep his thread on topic as it was in a sub-forum area with a very narrow focus of systems.   

 

<snip>

 

The Owner's Permissions present an interesting conundrum.

 

From my perspective, on the one hand, if I still wanted to teach my Path here, I could easily so do.

 

On the other hand, when I come across something that I consider to be potentially dangerous (or at best an exercise in futility), it's still a bit difficult to issue a clear and unambiguous warning.

 

[Apech]

 

The Owner's Permissions present an interesting conundrum.

 

From my perspective, on the one hand, if I still wanted to teach my Path here, I could easily so do.

 

On the other hand, when I come across something that I consider to be potentially dangerous (or at best an exercise in futility), it's still a bit difficult to issue a clear and unambiguous warning.

 

 

 

I think this is an important point.  Criticism (hopefully polite and respectful) and pointing out errors is how we all learn from each other.  While moderator action will usually split a thread for clarity it rarely removes posts and so everyone can still read what has been said.  But under owner's permissions the OP can just remove any queries or dissent.  It's not healthy.

[gatito]

I think this is an important point.  Criticism (hopefully polite and respectful) and pointing out errors is how we all learn from each other.  While moderator action will usually split a thread for clarity it rarely removes posts and so everyone can still read what has been said.  But under owner's permissions the OP can just remove any queries or dissent.  It's not healthy.

 

Unfortunately, the "criticism" here was never polite (let alone respectful).

 

Here's an exellent example of a dissenting voice (flowing hands) starting his own thread to voice respectful and polite criticism.

 

Job done.

 

[Apech]

Unfortunately, the "criticism" here was never polite (let alone respectful).

 

Here's an exellent example of a dissenting voice (flowing hands) starting his own thread to voice respectful and polite criticism.

 

Job done.

 

 

Never?

[flowing hands]

gone.

Edited November 25, 2016 by flowing hands

[dawei]

Judging by what I know of Li Erh I very much doubt it. If we have studied li Erh's DDJ , we see a man who despises rule makers and religious cults, who prefers people to be simple and to follow the way.

 

But Way is any Way... path is 10,000 paths...   I don't see we can judge anyone's path anymore than we can judge the flow of water.

 

Both Roses and Weeds follow the Great Way.

 

I think your making a case for man made deviations...  but I see that as still along the 10,000 paths.

[Walker]

I think on a Daoist forum it is of great importance that any system that is extensively promoted has got to be tested as bonafied; we have discussed endless pages about Mo Pai and John Chang. Especially when these systems are being advertised to members as bonafied. I think it is a travesty if we do not criticise any issues about systems that come on here trying to attract more followers. Certainly Effilang has been tireless in his promotions and he should be credited for that.

 

I agree with what you say here, and I think this spirit of due diligence should be applied to all who promote ideas here, including such ideas as your brand of "There is no Tai Shang Lao Jun but the one Flowing Hands talks to, and Flowing Hands is his prophet" brand of millenarianism.

 

In that spirit of questioning, please allow me to venture that the unattributed block quote that you copied and pasted for us doesn't do diddly to prove the point you're trying to make. Why?

 

1. First of all, this article paints a picture in broad strokes of the repeated tragedies that struck mainland Chinese people post-1949. However, Effi tells us that Xiao Yao Pai became public in Indonesia in the 1970s, under the direction of a master who was in Indonesia since the 1930s. Their master would have avoided each and every one of the tragic historical events listed in the quote. That fact alone ought to put this discussion to rest. Grassmountainsage (from what I can tell himself no cheerleader for XYP), says:

 

Yes the original authentic sects and masters either fled to hong kong taiwan indonesia america and so forth or they went silent.

 

On top of that, there's the problem that there is a mountain of anecdotal evidence suggesting that some "real teachings" really did survive all the chaos of the 20th century in the PRC. Which brings us to point number...

 

2. Even if Xiao Yao Pai was being transmitted by a master in the People's Republic of China, the history painted for us by the quote (which was apparently written by somebody called Danny Xuan in a book about wing chun) you provided is far from authoritative. One can go see people in a martial arts forum debating the quote here. I tend to take the side that says the quote fails to account for everything that happened in the immense land mass that just so happens to contain the biggest population on earth. I know plenty of people who lived through that era, including cultivators and martial artists who have told me personally that they found ways to practice. Hu Yaozhen's daughter Hu Lijuan, for example, told me that when she was sent out in the countryside during the Cultural Revolution, she wandered off to practice her qigong in the woods, where she wasn't bothered. In Bill Porter's Path to Heaven we see the hermit who says he was dragged from his mountain by some Red Guards. After awhile he stole away in the night and went back to his hermitage, and the Red Guards never came after him again. I could keep making examples, but I there's no need. The quote's value is in reminding us to be skeptical; it can't possibly be used to definitively rule out any possibilities.

 

3. The quote you gave us is only talking about kung fu. Clearly it's not even accurate about kung fu. You're trying to say that what it says about kung fu holds true for everything traditional and Chinese. However, if the quote fails to describe the state of kung fu accurately... and we're talking about a religious cultivation movement instead of a martial art... and that religious lineage wasn't even in China during the period that the quote is talking about... then... well, then there is no then. The points are moot. 

 

 

I have offered Effilang help but he refuses even to listen to what I have to say.

 

Ah, now if that ain't the bluesy lamentation sung by forlorn prophets everywhere! I'm sorry to break it to ya, but part of the reason you're gonna encounter billions of pairs of deaf ears in this world is that prophets really are everywhere. Why, if I had a dime for every time I met a prophet, well, shucks, I'd at least have enough change to able to treat you to a Guiness for you to drown your sorrows in, chum. Worst thing is, you're not even close to being the only person out there who says they've spoken a word or two with Laozi. What's the likelihood of convincing people with quotes from kung fu books? Well, you see, there's this story about walking up Mt. Everest on your hands...

 

 

Can we really trust the arts that have emerged from China?

 

I reckon probably no more or less than we can trust the ones that have emerged from dudes in Britain...

Edited November 18, 2016 by Walker

[flowing hands]

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Edited November 25, 2016 by flowing hands

[flowing hands]

Hi walker thank you for your post

 

I don't drink and I don't lament so I won't be seeing you in the pub.

As you say we must be diligent about these things.

 

Actually as we are being diligent on this site I rarely say anything about the end world prophecy, I usually stick to the DDJ, because as you say there are so many (not that I am aware of them) lamenters of Millenarianism (had to google that one you must be a walking dictionary!)

 

As we were both not in China at the time (I presume you were not) it is very difficult given the amount of news that was released from the government to say what was accurate. Bill Porter was 'escorted' around a lot of China and only shook free at certain points. To discuss what actually happened we could be here all year, but we do know that spiritual and martial arts were severely suppressed and banned. Fa long Gong was banned for one example which is more modern.

 

I might have misread Xia Yao Pai site as it was not coming up full screen, but what I could gleen was that it was after the CR that the teacher decided to teach, but it did not verify whether he came from China or was in Indonesia before this. So I could be wrong about this. I am sure Effilang could put me right. Perhaps they could get their site so it can be read properly.

 

As we are diligent my old chum, my arts are from Malaysia where I lived for a while. I also lived in South Korea for a while.

 

So Dudes who heavily rely on dictionaries need to be more diligent themselves.

 

The answers are not always there.

[dawei]

Hi Dawei

 

What path then leads to enlightenment and to real Immortality? 10,000 paths? As Li Erh says we can all take many roads some will lead us to nowhere others to somewhere where we can find our way.

Some roads lead to misunderstanding and mistrust.

So there must be a path that can guide us to where we want to be.

 

There are of course many snags, many deceits etc. along the way and we must be wise enough to see them.

 

I don't really disagree with this but maybe its just our different paths create different perspectives.    On some level, I think most paths are leading nowhere, except to the next life.    

 

I once heard someone say to be careful when 'practice becomes a distraction';  I think the same sometimes about thinking about 'path'.    And while I'd support someone pursuing a path to get where they want to be, I don't personally feel that way anymore.  Meaning:  At some point, the idea of practice and path left my inner core. I just see it as following an inner voice or like if Dao was a beacon of light, one is simply going towards it the way a plant turns towards the sun.    With that, I shifted from a negative approach to a positive one.   Meaning:  I don't see things as needing to be restricted, reduced, removed (ie: stop this desire or that desire);  I see everything as 'allowing' and 'accepting' it.   For in this world, I don't see anything I can reject and that will just make it go away.   But I see that if I allow and accept what I see, it flourishes in its own way, even if destructive; if destructive then it will be regardless of my view anyways.

 

To borrow from your transmission:

 

CH. 2:

The Sage sees the Ten Thousand Things in harmony, and goes about his business doing nothing, so the Ten Thousand Things rise and fall without interference.

 

CH. 5:

Heaven and Earth are ruthless, They see the Ten Thousand Things as part of one whole. The wise are therefore ruthless, for they see people as part of the same structure.

 

CH. 15:

Do not seek fulfilment, but feel the Dao in your heart. By not seeking fulfilment, nothing is changed. The Ten Thousand Things rise and fall without interference.

 

CH. 16:

Empty the mind of everything, let it reside in peace. Being at peace you can watch the Ten Thousand Things rise and fall. They follow their natural path and eventually return to the source of all things. This is the way of Nature

 

CH. 21:

The greatest virtue is to follow the Dao and only Dao. Oh unfathomable Dao, ever elusive and intangible. But yet within, there is substance and form. It is the essence of the Ten Thousand Things. This is very real, so here lies a true path to follow.

 

CH. 28:

When the Sage returns to this state, he becomes the ruler of the Ten Thousand Things. For he leaves everything to rise and fall without interference.

 

CH. 32:

For the Ten Thousand Things are part of one on-going, flowing structure. Men are part of this also. Here lies the key to balance and harmony.

 

etc...

[flowing hands]

Hi Dawei

 

Of course ...but to get to that state you have the self in the way, we have talked about this before. How to have self realisation and of course then to be what you have quoted from my text.

 

Can you be all those things and not be yourself?

 

Of course Li Erh is talking about the highest state of a man or a woman or of the Heavens.

 

How does one get to the stage of ch 21?

 

Xyp think they have the answer and so does hundreds of others.

 

So we come back to a path...what path should I take. Of course I would say it certainly is not a straight one and sure enough restrictions are going to limit experience. But within an unknown path there is one (a path) and the energy that you put forward is the path that you will take and receive. Starting on the right path is a big advantage.

 

How do we know which is the right path? soul work of previous lives(energy) brings us to certain points and we are therefore destined to a certain path at a certain part of the continuation of life. we have choices in our lives to do and not do certain things.

 

Li Erh says in ch 84

 

                    "Following the way is a sacred path.

                     It has been sacred since the very beginning and shall be till the very end.

                    Following the way requires strength

                     Not just physical, but mental and spiritual too.

 

                     The sacred path is called Daoist Heart

                     Many start on the path with wrong beginnings,

                      Many start on the path for the wrong reasons,

                      Many start on the path for fame and fortune.

                      But only very few make themselves like trees;

                       Stretching forth to Heaven with an open mind and an open heart.

                      The way becomes clearer to such men. ( and women)

                       That which goes against the Dao will never last.

 

Ch 89

 

"I once trod upon a path; thorn bushes grew at every turn.............

[dawei]

SFH...  

 

I actually don't really understand self realization if self is forgotten... how long should one hold to it (self) if it is forgotten?

 

I won't disclaim 'path'; that is all everyone has... but just a word, a journey.

 

You said: "How do we know which is the right path? soul work of previous lives(energy) brings us to certain points and we are therefore destined to a certain path at a certain part of the continuation of life. we have choices in our lives to do and not do certain things."

 

I agree that it is destined... but our choices, if we are responding instead of leading it, is destined choices.   At least that is my feeling.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this:

 

"Following the way is a sacred path.

...

The sacred path is called Daoist Heart"

[flowing hands]

To continue the debate about XYP as they refuse to accept any criticism.

 

I do believe there are a number of XYP members on this board. They claim that their teacher is Tai Sung Lo Jun (Lao Shi).

Now Lao Shi is well known for.....................yes his DDJ. He is not known for martial art, Qi gong etc etc. So one would expect that if one is taught by Lao Shi what would the principle thing he would Teach?

 

Now the XYP members do not post in the DDJ section, it is a rare occurrence if any. Now one would expect that being taught by Lao Shi they would be all over those 81 chapters with inspirational opinions and understandings, alas this has never happened.

 

Why not?

[Jeff]

Flowing hands,

 

To you, was Lao Shi an immortal who took form as a human, or was he a human that became an immortal?

 

Also, the TTC states the following...

 

To become a good teacher always use the Dao first,

if this doesn't succeed, words must be used.

When words are used great confusion can arise,

thats why the Ancient Masters offered the Dao and said little.

 

This statement seems to imply for those with the capacity, there is a better teaching method beyond words. Additionally, a sage is stated to be filled with "silence and peace". So, what do you consider to be the better method of teaching? And, could it be the direct sharing of this "silence and peace" that fills a sage? Or could "use the Dao first" mean something about the underlying energy of the Universe?

 

Thanks.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Jeff

[flowing hands]

Hi Jeff

 

Lao Shi (Li Erh Xian Shi, Tai Sung Lo Jun). As a besides point I used to call Li Erh, Tai sung, it is in our prayer, then one day he came to me and said I want you to call me by my proper name that is Li Erh. I never heard this name before so I had to look it up. So his proper name is Li Erh Xian Shi (Long Lobed Immortal Master). He comes to me as a spirit Immortal because that's where he is. He can come as a human or anything else and I have experienced this also.

 

When life was more simple and people lived very much with the environment, there was a peace that we seldom experience nowadays. So Li Erh is talking about the teaching of someone by using no words but by making them be aware totally of their environment. Like the north American native Indians the Holyman would go on a vision journey, alone and in the wilderness. He would be faced only with the environment and himself. There would be no cars no planes, no distractions and so they would begin to feel the energy of the world and the environment. They would find peace and stillness and they could watch the world turn in the infinite. Learning about the Dao would start as a love of all things, it would then be inside of them, once they had achieved oneness with the infinite. This peace and understanding can be seen by others and so no words are needed to teach this. This the spirit of the Dao.

 

One can be shown this and led towards this, but actions and words may be needed.

[Jeff]

When a sage achieves the Tao, she then is the Tao and can share that energy with the world. Tao energy encompasses - yet is also beyond - stillness and peace.

Words not only can cause confusion. Apparitions and appearances can also cause confusion.

How can one vet their immortals? Only Tao sages can recognize other Tao sages.

Thanks for sharing. Any specific Taoist text that describes that a sage can share tao energy with the world?

[Jeff]

Hi Jeff

 

Lao Shi (Li Erh Xian Shi, Tai Sung Lo Jun). As a besides point I used to call Li Erh, Tai sung, it is in our prayer, then one day he came to me and said I want you to call me by my proper name that is Li Erh. I never heard this name before so I had to look it up. So his proper name is Li Erh Xian Shi (Long Lobed Immortal Master). He comes to me as a spirit Immortal because that's where he is. He can come as a human or anything else and I have experienced this also.

 

When life was more simple and people lived very much with the environment, there was a peace that we seldom experience nowadays. So Li Erh is talking about the teaching of someone by using no words but by making them be aware totally of their environment. Like the north American native Indians the Holyman would go on a vision journey, alone and in the wilderness. He would be faced only with the environment and himself. There would be no cars no planes, no distractions and so they would begin to feel the energy of the world and the environment. They would find peace and stillness and they could watch the world turn in the infinite. Learning about the Dao would start as a love of all things, it would then be inside of them, once they had achieved oneness with the infinite. This peace and understanding can be seen by others and so no words are needed to teach this. This the spirit of the Dao.

 

One can be shown this and led towards this, but actions and words may be needed.

Thank you for response. So are you saying that in your view (or tradition) it is not possible for a sage to share the Tao (energetically radiating or presence) other than to show by example of a life like American Indians?

 

Also, why do you think an immortal would come to you and ask you to call him by a name other than you had been originally praying to? Would that not instead be calling a different being or spirit in your mind?

[flowing hands]

Tai Sung Lo Jun is a common name that the Chinese gave to Lao Shi, but his given name when he was born was Li Erh. Because he never comes to anyone so he has never expressed this. One doesn't call in ones mind.

 

No it is quite possible, but we require more words and actions.