Applying chi to martial arts.

[Oneironaut]

I've heard karate men from the kyokushin and shotokan backgrounds speak of using chi/ki to make their martial arts effective during the later stages of life after they reach a certain age and their athleticism is gone. I don't understand how this is possible but many karate men have also stated that karate in its most advanced stages looks indistinguishable from tai chi.

 

I've seen Jigoro Kano (and there's footage out there) avoid virtually any and all attempts to be thrown in judo. I believe this was done through a very deep understanding of body mechanics and using his own chi.

 

My questions are how is chi directly applied to martial arts? Also, can it also be applied to boxing? You can't talk about this in a boxing environment or you'll be ridiculed and they'll start making references to Dragon Ball Z. Boxing is an excellent martial art but it's also spiritually retarded and not always the most intelligent way to approach fighting or self defense.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Oneironaut

[thelerner]

I've seen Jigoro Kano (and there's footage out there) avoid virtually any and all attempts to be thrown in judo. I believe this was done through a very deep understanding of body mechanics and using his own chi.

 

My questions are how is chi directly applied to martial arts?

I come from an Aikido background.  Part of it is a deep understanding of body mechanics.  Another part is relaxation and extension.  Not using strength or rather not as its conventionally felt.  For example my sensei told us: "A Tai Chi grandmaster used to say he'd allow his student to use 4 ounces (or was it 2?) of force, but in Aikido I'll let you use 4 pounds."

 

Similarly O'Sensei is reported to have told a woman who came to see him when he was in his 70's, "I have a chance to understand Aiki because I am old, You have a good chance to because you are a woman".   What he meant was, neither of them could rely on strength.  Similarly my sensei complained he'd never be truly great because he never went through a traumatic weakening experience.  O'Sensei was a pretty weak kid, and had sickly bouts later on.  People like Bruce Lee and Koichi Tohei had broken backs.

 

There's no substitute for proper technique and body mechanics, but I feel in any martial art, when chi/ki/crazy greatness develops there is an effortlessness, non-strength being used.  So even a boxer like Mohammad Ali, talks about the 20 years it took him to know and throw a jab.  I expect by the end, it threw itself and felt effortless because all the power moved in one direction, instead of when you feel strong, inwhich case your feeling muscle fighting against its counter muscle. 

[joeblast]

well, once it was demonstrated to me,

 

hold out your arm

 

descending palm blow, felt in area of impact

 

and now, we'll do it with some internal power behind it

 

similar descending palm blow, felt a little less at the site of impact, but the bones of my arm were going whomwhomwhomwhom....

[dwai]

I've heard karate men from the kyokushin and shotokan backgrounds speak of using chi/ki to make their martial arts effective during the later stages of life after they reach a certain age and their athleticism is gone. I don't understand how this is possible but many karate men have also stated that karate in its most advanced stages looks indistinguishable from tai chi.

 

I've seen Jigoro Kano (and there's footage out there) avoid virtually any and all attempts to be thrown in judo. I believe this was done through a very deep understanding of body mechanics and using his own chi.

 

My questions are how is chi directly applied to martial arts? Also, can it also be applied to boxing? You can't talk about this in a boxing environment or you'll be ridiculed and they'll start making references to Dragon Ball Z. Boxing is an excellent martial art but it's also spiritually retarded and not always the most intelligent way to approach fighting or self defense.

 

Qi is used but not directly. Qi is to be converted into Jin - power that is stored in our bone marrow using a technique called condensing (the qi).  When this jin is issued for martial effectiveness it is called Fah Jin. All of the chinese internal martial arts when taught correctly work towards this objective. There is no need for physical effort beyond what is needed to maintain a sound structure. 

 

Imho, some boxers do use a crude form of Jin, though they don't know it. When a good boxer suddenly drops his weight and strikes, that is a fajin, albeit with probably 90% physical effort and 10% jin. Same thing when an advanced taiji person does, might be 90% jin and 10% physical power. A Master can do it with 100% jin. 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

+100 to body mechanics.

 

Had no idea Karate crossed over to tai-chi type of expression at later stages!

 

I'd even almost go so far as argue that body mechanics and knowledge is technique. Proprioception, balance, phyiological knowledge, flexibility and economy of energy in aspects of kinetic, potential, psychological, chemical etc. Knowing and FEELING as much as possible in every movement in relation to a creature or object. It's your body and if you use it right it wont matter what style you use, it's going to be just yours.

A traumatically weakening experience is good, but it's easy to get caught in the desire of regaining what was lost, focusing on strenght rather that the other thing... Sometimes i think MA power come from surrender, throwing out every idea about fighting and power ever and really starting to look at what's going on. Letting stuff be what it is and adapting to it. Choosing ones battles, battlegrounds and weaponry wisely.

Breath and sound is also part of using qi in MA. I havent studied kiai so i dont understand kiai but then again i'm pretty deeply entrenched in southern chinese kung fu, the way we "speak" is different.

 

When it comes to boxers some seem more skilled than many martial artists because of the limited number of techniques they uses, at least from a jibengong standpoint: jabs, crosses and hooks (vertical and horizontal). It takes a special kind of person to endure and prevail the eventual boredom, but the simplicity eventually seems to open up huge areas for honing details.

The only thing i feel is lacking qi-wise is their grounding, all that boucning around has got to be counterproductive unless it becomes so natural and minute that it crosses over to semi-levitation or dancing. It always comes back to feet and legs.

 

I'm obviously exaggerating but cloud-feet and jumping arent the same thing at all. But then again boxing doesnt factor in any "below the belt" strategies at all so they make due with what they use. So strategy and tactics is also important. This is also qi-work in one sense, borderline shen-work.

 

I've had similar experiences as joeblast describes, when the hit reaches something else. When i teach striking (hands and feet) i try to remind my students about the difference between impact and impulse, the former being more external/superficial and the latter usually affects the structure of the person being hit.

Qi also comes in play with martial neigong, conditioning etc, the strenght/endurance in relaxed structure that is gained through consistent practice of "hard" qigong is noticeable. I've seen some terrifying examples of iron palm where people have turned their hand into this lump of rock-solid flesh and bone, thats not what i'm thinking about. I mean vise-like grip and fingers that feel like being poked with rebar without loosing sensitivity. Training to read, feel and relax into incoming force is also qi-work. I've felt my punch get deflected from the place it landed and the force i gave away came back at me from the angle i left exposed in the form of a thundering slap that made my upper body sing with nerve-overload. Not to mention hitting someone in their flying ribs only and painfully realizing they're solid like a tree trunk even when they werent expecting a punch to land there...

Most of these examples are from people who've studied the same style for twenty years in their spare time so im not saying they're legendary.

I've felt the difference between a regular arm trap and one that emplyed the thumb-index mudra to accentuate power/structure, the increase pain it produced with such a small change was huge.

 

And... err... what was i thinking?

[Oneironaut]

I come from an Aikido background.  Part of it is a deep understanding of body mechanics.  Another part is relaxation and extension.  Not using strength or rather not as its conventionally felt.  For example my sensei told us: "A Tai Chi grandmaster used to say he'd allow his student to use 4 ounces (or was it 2?) of force, but in Aikido I'll let you use 4 pounds."

 

 

Similarly O'Sensei is reported to have told a woman who came to see him when he was in his 70's, "I have a chance to understand Aiki because I am old, You have a good chance to because you are a woman".   What he meant was, neither of them could rely on strength.  Similarly my sensei complained he'd never be truly great because he never went through a traumatic weakening experience.  O'Sensei was a pretty weak kid, and had sickly bouts later on.  People like Bruce Lee and Koichi Tohei had broken backs.

 

There are videos of Morihei Ueshiba doing all kinds of weird stuff. If I remember correctly there are videos where he supposedly barely touches someone and launches them across the room. Is that what Ling Kong Jing is? I'm personally very skeptical. I know Michael Winn teaches it (for non martial purposes) but I wanna see this for myself. 

 

There's no substitute for proper technique and body mechanics, but I feel in any martial art, when chi/ki/crazy greatness develops there is an effortlessness, non-strength being used.  So even a boxer like Mohammad Ali, talks about the 20 years it took him to know and throw a jab.  I expect by the end, it threw itself and felt effortless because all the power moved in one direction, instead of when you feel strong, inwhich case your feeling muscle fighting against its counter muscle. 

 

 

I've heard older boxers (Bernard Hopkins being one) speaking of how a less athletic boxer can defeat a vigorous, younger, faster boxer with mastery of distance, timing and punching accuracy. He also spoke about being economical in footwork and offensive output to not tire yourself out. When Bernard hit about 49 or 50 his body wouldn't let him keep up and he lost to a boxer which I'm certain he would've otherwise defeated in his younger years. I'm sure Bernard could KO the average young 20 or 30 something (non boxer) in their athletic prime even at his advanced age but I also wouldn't be surprised to see a young boxer with a little less than half his skill set defeat him. The science of boxing for the most part is very dependent on one's ability to take punishment (which also declines with age) and athleticism.

 

It would be pretty awesome to know if there's a way to counter this issue. The older kyokushin guys raised this question and some responded by saying that all karate is about ki and ki is the solution to this issue. I think it's pretty amazing to see some of the older guys still practicing their shotokan at 70 and 80 years of age. 

Edited November 30, 2016 by Oneironaut

[Oneironaut]

Qi is used but not directly. Qi is to be converted into Jin - power that is stored in our bone marrow using a technique called condensing (the qi).  When this jin is issued for martial effectiveness it is called Fah Jin. All of the chinese internal martial arts when taught correctly work towards this objective. There is no need for physical effort beyond what is needed to maintain a sound structure. 

 

Imho, some boxers do use a crude form of Jin, though they don't know it. When a good boxer suddenly drops his weight and strikes, that is a fajin, albeit with probably 90% physical effort and 10% jin. Same thing when an advanced taiji person does, might be 90% jin and 10% physical power. A Master can do it with 100% jin. 

 

Thanks for being so open about it. I'll look into Fah Jin. Theoretically speaking can someone trained in western boxing also develop to the point in which he can use about 70% Fah Jin and 30% physical effort?

[Oneironaut]

+100 to body mechanics.

 

Had no idea Karate crossed over to tai-chi type of expression at later stages!

 

I'd even almost go so far as argue that body mechanics and knowledge is technique. Proprioception, balance, phyiological knowledge, flexibility and economy of energy in aspects of kinetic, potential, psychological, chemical etc. Knowing and FEELING as much as possible in every movement in relation to a creature or object. It's your body and if you use it right it wont matter what style you use, it's going to be just yours.

 

 

I'm guessing somatic training can help with body mechanics. Probably the Feldenkrais method since it originated through judo and jujutsu and shares much common ground. A lot of Feldenkrais works refer to many concepts and ideas that were spoken about through judo and jujutsu teachers of old such as effortless movement, ease of motion, weightlessness of the body, comfortable yet powerful body posture etc. I also found seitai and sotai (the former originating through jujutsu and ninjutsu and the latter being body work similar to functional integration in Feldenkrais) share a ton of similarities with Feldenkrais as well. A huge difference being that Feldenkrais completed rejected the existence of chi/ki. Here are some links and hopefully someone experienced can compare and contrast between them. 

 

http://doinseitai.com

http://www.sotaicanada.com/index.php?Practitioner

 

Feldenkrais practitioners also speak about feeling your bones and breathing into them. Isn't that a form of bone breathing? I also heard that tao yin is very good with helping with joints, flexibility and range of motion. I'll be more than happy to look into those as well but it's kind of overwhelming looking into so many different systems. 

 

 

When it comes to boxers some seem more skilled than many martial artists because of the limited number of techniques they uses, at least from a jibengong standpoint: jabs, crosses and hooks (vertical and horizontal). It takes a special kind of person to endure and prevail the eventual boredom, but the simplicity eventually seems to open up huge areas for honing details.

The only thing i feel is lacking qi-wise is their grounding, all that boucning around has got to be counterproductive unless it becomes so natural and minute that it crosses over to semi-levitation or dancing. It always comes back to feet and legs.

 

I'm obviously exaggerating but cloud-feet and jumping arent the same thing at all. But then again boxing doesnt factor in any "below the belt" strategies at all so they make due with what they use. So strategy and tactics is also important. This is also qi-work in one sense, borderline shen-work.

 

Strategy and tactics is as important as anything else in boxing. Most people don't realize this and is one reason they cannot appreciate boxing and why someone like Floyd Mayweather was so hated. As far as all the footwork goes... your feet need to be on the ground in order to generate some real power. Every boxer is different and has a different style of boxing. I think Tommy "The Hitman" Hearns and Sugar Ray Leonard can better demonstrate this with the back and forth war they had a long time ago. It was like one guy had to adopt the others style.

 

Qi also comes in play with martial neigong, conditioning etc, the strenght/endurance in relaxed structure that is gained through consistent practice of "hard" qigong is noticeable. I've seen some terrifying examples of iron palm where people have turned their hand into this lump of rock-solid flesh and bone, thats not what i'm thinking about. I mean vise-like grip and fingers that feel like being poked with rebar without loosing sensitivity. Training to read, feel and relax into incoming force is also qi-work. I've felt my punch get deflected from the place it landed and the force i gave away came back at me from the angle i left exposed in the form of a thundering slap that made my upper body sing with nerve-overload. Not to mention hitting someone in their flying ribs only and painfully realizing they're solid like a tree trunk even when they werent expecting a punch to land there...

Most of these examples are from people who've studied the same style for twenty years in their spare time so im not saying they're legendary.

I've felt the difference between a regular arm trap and one that emplyed the thumb-index mudra to accentuate power/structure, the increase pain it produced with such a small change was huge.

 

And... err... what was i thinking?

 

 

I've heard of training to read, feel and relax into incoming force through a book on shotokan karate. It was written by Sensei Shojiro Sugiyama. 

 

As far as hard qi gong goes I heard Masutatsu Oyama added iron shirt and qi gong into the kyokushin curriculum. Those kyokushin guys built a good reputation for being able to take some severe beatings and being more than happy to dish them back out. 

 

One of Masutatsu Oyama's kyokushin philosophies stated something along the lines of training your hands so that if you were to throw a punch and it was blocked or deflected by your opponent then his (your opponents) hand or arm would get broken in the exchange. I've never seen this done before but I'm thinking this is iron hands. Am I correct? 

Edited November 30, 2016 by Oneironaut

[dwai]

Thanks for being so open about it. I'll look into Fah Jin. Theoretically speaking can someone trained in western boxing also develop to the point in which he can use about 70% Fah Jin and 30% physical effort?

 

Take a look at this video --

 

https://youtu.be/qFy4puJPJZA?t=313

[windwalker]

https://journeytoemptiness.com/2016/07/02/a-day-in-the-park/

 

The link shows my teacher in beijing, what is shown is or was pretty much an everyday thing.

I am often intrigued by discussions of qi and other aspects of IMA when examples are presented that to my mind can be done by most.  There are specific things / effects  that can be done or caused using what is called “qi” that can not be done or caused by useing other methods..

 

What's shown in the clip are  in class demos allowing people to make their own distinctions of what it is and is not.

 

In CMA the idea of qi along with others are present in all CMA arts.

 

The differences are to the extent of use and how it’s manifested. In other words some arts use the “qi” to make the actions of the body or the body itself stronger. In other arts its used in a very direct way, the training is designed to allow one to come to some type of paradigm shift in their practice to facilitate the development and use of it over the enhancement of the body directly as in other MA practices. ..

Edited December 3, 2016 by windwalker

[RiverSnake]

 

Similarly O'Sensei is reported to have told a woman who came to see him when he was in his 70's, "I have a chance to understand Aiki because I am old, You have a good chance to because you are a woman".   What he meant was, neither of them could rely on strength.  Similarly my sensei complained he'd never be truly great because he never went through a traumatic weakening experience.  O'Sensei was a pretty weak kid, and had sickly bouts later on.  People like Bruce Lee and Koichi Tohei had broken backs.

 

 

 

I love the women and old man analogy. Dr. Morris in Path Notes has probably given the most open account of esotericism and the martial arts. Most instructors do not talk about.

[Nungali]

There are videos of Morihei Ueshiba doing all kinds of weird stuff. If I remember correctly there are videos where he supposedly barely touches someone and launches them across the room. Is that what Ling Kong Jing is? I'm personally very skeptical. I know Michael Winn teaches it (for non martial purposes) but I wanna see this for myself. 

 

I can do wonderful aikido stuff like that !  As long as the person does a classic aikido technique, moves in to attack the 'correct way' with that technique, and offers me the same respectful and 'allowing attitude' one would give the 'Master'  , all I have to do is adapt my technique to his movement and timing and use his extended energy .   Sometimes it works with little contact, as the throw happens I can extend one finger on the lead hand and it looks like I threw someone with my finger .

 

Same with 'taking the sword', if its done the same way, it looks like someone came in with a ferocious decapitating blow  and I just slapped their face and took their sword away from them   ( and the spectators go  ' Oooooooo  !'  )  .... same with knife .   Sometimes I will add a bit and go out of 'demo' mode and  ;  " Now I will really try to cut him up ! " ... well, just as well it is a wooden knife ! 

 

For me , 'ki'  is  a way of unconsciously controlling and moving the body in unison eg,   If I imagine ki flowing through my arm and out of it (and other 3  elemental principles) ,  my form 'comes out ' better . 

 

Karate like tai chi ?   I would forget the Shotokan example - too corrupted and too man ;'ricks' going on in there . In Okinawa , there is soft and hard style. The real traditional teachers, in my tradition,  make a strong point that it depends on the individual; big small, short tall, slight or built like a tank, a range of techniques are taught that one is expected to use and adapt to  yourself . 

 

 

I've heard older boxers (Bernard Hopkins being one) speaking of how a less athletic boxer can defeat a vigorous, younger, faster boxer with mastery of distance, timing and punching accuracy.

 

Timing  distance and accuracy ... yes !   Some of the younger guys dont get this at all ; basic Ipponwaza ; I say :"I am  going to come in with a right chudan oitsuki ( 'lunge punch' at the chest )   you defend ."  Its the easiest thing to defend against and do a heap of techniques against. ....... wham !  Got him ! Even when they knew it was coming ! 

 

The accuracy surprised me .  When I stared MSSR teacher was showing pressure point strikes "How ya gonna do that in a melee ?"   That is pretty accurate targeting to try and do in the middle of a rumble .   Only took a couple of years .  now its like my knuckle ( usually the middle one of the middle finger )  is magnetically attracted to one littele area ... what ever one 'presents itself ' 

 

 

He also spoke about being economical in footwork and offensive output to not tire yourself out. When Bernard hit about 49 or 50 his body wouldn't let him keep up and he lost to a boxer which I'm certain he would've otherwise defeated in his younger years. I'm sure Bernard could KO the average young 20 or 30 something (non boxer) in their athletic prime even at his advanced age but I also wouldn't be surprised to see a young boxer with a little less than half his skill set defeat him. The science of boxing for the most part is very dependent on one's ability to take punishment (which also declines with age) and athleticism.

 

It would be pretty awesome to know if there's a way to counter this issue. The older kyokushin guys raised this question and some responded by saying that all karate is about ki and ki is the solution to this issue. I think it's pretty amazing to see some of the older guys still practicing their shotokan at 70 and 80 years of age. 

 

I saw a 'spar' -  one guy in his late 70s, the other in early 60s. Younger one got a lift throw in and slammed the older down back fist , on a wooden gym floor !  I didnt like that  ... I thought , he shouldnt do that to an old man like that .

 

Then they guy does one of those get up off you back in a one movement flip, up on to both feet, in a stance and guard up and moves in on the other !  

 

They all have their own ideas about it.  In Okinawa it was said , due to diet, they used to have  some of the oldest healthiest people. Used to.  Diet has changed and now polluted currents affect fishing on one side of the islands  (head teacher used to fish and ate fish from on 'wrong side' ).   He didnt have a traditional long old age  , he died a few years back from brain cancer . 

 

Also, I heard (via him )   " No  young one to to pass family  traditions  on to  .....  eat at McDonalds and hang around US base all day . "

 

When he died, that tradtition was finished 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I'm guessing somatic training can help with body mechanics. Probably the Feldenkrais method since it originated through judo and jujutsu and shares much common ground. A lot of Feldenkrais works refer to many concepts and ideas that were spoken about through judo and jujutsu teachers of old such as effortless movement, ease of motion, weightlessness of the body, comfortable yet powerful body posture etc. I also found seitai and sotai (the former originating through jujutsu and ninjutsu and the latter being body work similar to functional integration in Feldenkrais) share a ton of similarities with Feldenkrais as well. A huge difference being that Feldenkrais completed rejected the existence of chi/ki. Here are some links and hopefully someone experienced can compare and contrast between them. 

 

http://doinseitai.com

http://www.sotaicanada.com/index.php?Practitioner

 

Feldenkrais practitioners also speak about feeling your bones and breathing into them. Isn't that a form of bone breathing? I also heard that tao yin is very good with helping with joints, flexibility and range of motion. I'll be more than happy to look into those as well but it's kind of overwhelming looking into so many different systems. 

 

 

 

 

 

Strategy and tactics is as important as anything else in boxing. Most people don't realize this and is one reason they cannot appreciate boxing and why someone like Floyd Mayweather was so hated. As far as all the footwork goes... your feet need to be on the ground in order to generate some real power. Every boxer is different and has a different style of boxing. I think Tommy "The Hitman" Hearns and Sugar Ray Leonard can better demonstrate this with the back and forth war they had a long time ago. It was like one guy had to adopt the others style.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've heard of training to read, feel and relax into incoming force through a book on shotokan karate. It was written by Sensei Shojiro Sugiyama. 

 

As far as hard qi gong goes I heard Masutatsu Oyama added iron shirt and qi gong into the kyokushin curriculum. Those kyokushin guys built a good reputation for being able to take some severe beatings and being more than happy to dish them back out. 

 

One of Masutatsu Oyama's kyokushin philosophies stated something along the lines of training your hands so that if you were to throw a punch and it was blocked or deflected by your opponent then his (your opponents) hand or arm would get broken in the exchange. I've never seen this done before but I'm thinking this is iron hands. Am I correct?

 

That is way cool! I need to check out karate a little deeper!

The Feldenkrais thing as well, it been buzzing in the back of my head and getting my ears perked every time. Had no idea they closed the door on qi. But seriously, if i didnt practice kung fu the way i have the luck to do it i'd probably sing a different tune

If somatic training is what i think it is then i'm probably agreeing with you. Bones do matter a lot and what you wrote sounds very tai chi to me.

 

Mmm, yes. Tried sparring with a kyokushin karateka many many years ago, i'm not doing that again, rock solid and the approach was pretty scary.

Shotokan has "swallow and spit"? it's pretty though stuff but getting good at it produces incredible results. I think advanced tai chi practicioners could be knowledgeable in it but they'd have to be with someone who teaches the real inner door stuff.

 

I think it could be iron hands yes, could also be that any block is an opportunity to use seizing and locking followups but it sounds more like iron hand.

Most of the time we do punch block drills hands and forearms usualy start to throb pretty quickly, great way to scare off new students who just wont accept that it's always going to hurt if you do it full force and just started

I've heard the maxim that says "hit whatever is offered and make sure it hurts", so if someones guard is up their hands are a viable target and a nice hard knock to the metacarpals is no joke painwise.

[Nungali]

......

I've heard the maxim that says "hit whatever is offered and make sure it hurts", so if someones guard is up their hands are a viable target and a nice hard knock to the metacarpals is no joke painwise.

 

Definitely !      If someone goes to hit or grab me I attack the offending ... thingo .  Soon that 'thingo' learns not to do that   . MSSR is full of such techniques.  The  kick block with a simultaneous upside down fist strike with the other hand into and behind the shin bone ,  flick block, move to outside and smash the elbow.  If I am attacking your arms, I am out of range for a body or head hit  from you .

 

When I was a youngun , I won a karate comp by fighting my way to the top and had to fight big tall giant reach of a guy that had creamed everyone previously ...  also it was the open section and he was black and I was green . He  did this giant side kick and I stepped back and slammed a  backfist down on to his ankle bone .  But you dont get a point for that, even though it stopped him.  Then he stuck his  fists almost in my face and he was still out of range from a kick from me !  So I kicked his hand .. and he stepped forward and went owwie owwie and shook it and held it ... as I was moving forward with a head punch ... two opposing forces - thats a point !  A whole one ... I win !   He  was furious !  But had to wear it ....  competition ... rules ... that stuff. 

 

Similar principle with sword;  I can move off line or to side and 'take the wrist' while remaining outside of the range for a body cut ... against me .  

 

Thing is, a lot of these techniques are easily applied to 'basic karate'  (when it got imported to Japan from Okinawa , it started , first as a  PE system for primary school kids and later as a sport , they removed  the nerve and joint smashes, eye gouges and pinned arms throws (so you cant breakfall or roll out )  ... not good for kiddies.  A lot they turned into 'block punch' or just obscure kata movements with no accompanying bunkia ( explanation application and demonstration of a movement   -  well maybe after years and years of training and money and belt gradings and subservience ... you might get shown the 'secrets'    )

 

 

One of Mr Nishihira's (and now mine )  fav technique. 

 

A comes in with some  type of punching L R  (or RL )  combo ;  he throws R -   You dodge  (to your) right , defect punch with a  R hand  strike to his R  LU 8 or 9 with  R middle finger middle knuckle  ,  as you cross hands *  ,  he throws L - Dodge left, unfold hands (open wings ) , hit with R back fist middle knuckle up and  into his L ulna nerve (at 'funny bone ' )  , you L hand  now controls his R and you have entered inside both his arms ;  slide step forward and swipe down cheekbone with R  middle knuckles .

 

That is if the other guy didnt immediately back off and is now hopping from leg to leg unable to decide whether to nurse and hold  his r dead forearm or whole dead L arm ..... as I did, the first time it was 'demoed' on me       

 

* Form has a large 'white crane ' influence .  

[SeekerOfHealing]

There are a lot ways to use the Qi for martial arts, some can be legendary like in stories (I do not know if they are true) but some can be used to enhance effects of regular kicks and punches. I would mix hard qigong (to harden Qi) with muay thai. It would be lethal and very effective. Like Qing Cheng training with Muay Thai would be enough to break person a part with one kick. 

[doc benway]

I've heard karate men from the kyokushin and shotokan backgrounds speak of using chi/ki to make their martial arts effective during the later stages of life after they reach a certain age and their athleticism is gone. I don't understand how this is possible but many karate men have also stated that karate in its most advanced stages looks indistinguishable from tai chi.

 

I've seen Jigoro Kano (and there's footage out there) avoid virtually any and all attempts to be thrown in judo. I believe this was done through a very deep understanding of body mechanics and using his own chi.

 

My questions are how is chi directly applied to martial arts? Also, can it also be applied to boxing? You can't talk about this in a boxing environment or you'll be ridiculed and they'll start making references to Dragon Ball Z. Boxing is an excellent martial art but it's also spiritually retarded and not always the most intelligent way to approach fighting or self defense.

 

Qi can be applied to anything. 

In learning to cultivate it, there must be patience, awareness, sensitivity, flexibility, and peacefulness.

This is why practices used to cultivate qi are so often slow moving - qigong, taijiquan, zhan zhuang.

Once understanding and knowledge of application is there, it can be applied to anything. 

If you are interested in learning, I would highly recommend that you start with an art that is rooted in it's cultivation, like yiquan, taijiuan, or qigong. If you are interested in boxing, xingyiquan will be the closest in quality of movement.

[z00se]

I have applied qi to kykoshin karate, i could feel myself bursting with energy, i didn't get tired, and i could overexert myself feeling fine, but it took 2 days to recover every time. Punches were harder and i felt i could punch through blocks somewhat.

 

In aikido when charged with Ki i would have greater capacity to cut through the opponents block with my wooden sword. The block wouldn't move it.

 

But this is all hard ki

 

when i did tai chi a couple of times i sent my teacher flying while doing push hands. Not because my sensitivity was so good, just because my sensitivity was starting to develop and i had massive strength. One who masters balance doesn't need to master chi or strength. The balance of strength and sensitivity of feeling physical energy becomes a synergy. It gives one leeway from not having to be present in EVERY moment, and I can still push through easily with good posture nearby either side of the sweet spot felt through chi.

 

Chi is for wisdom, brawn for strength. Using wisdom to apply strength is power.

[z00se]

Also i have used soft qi approach in kykoshin, it automatically changes that way when im tired. I become more the observer. My punches have less force using less of my energy but the opponent still seems to use us much energy trying to avoid my strikes. I can find my apponents weak spots and combos that he struggles to defend against.

 

i think chi for martial arts mainly comes down to understanding and controlling your own body and later you opponents. I didn't get advanced enough to read opponents body, but i am starting to gain this skill through being a bodyworker, and finding it faster and easier to read somebodies body with practice. When i find the weak parts i can strengthen, as a martial artist one could punch them

[roger]

I've heard karate men from the kyokushin and shotokan backgrounds speak of using chi/ki to make their martial arts effective during the later stages of life after they reach a certain age and their athleticism is gone. I don't understand how this is possible but many karate men have also stated that karate in its most advanced stages looks indistinguishable from tai chi.

 

I've seen Jigoro Kano (and there's footage out there) avoid virtually any and all attempts to be thrown in judo. I believe this was done through a very deep understanding of body mechanics and using his own chi.

 

My questions are how is chi directly applied to martial arts? Also, can it also be applied to boxing? You can't talk about this in a boxing environment or you'll be ridiculed and they'll start making references to Dragon Ball Z. Boxing is an excellent martial art but it's also spiritually retarded and not always the most intelligent way to approach fighting or self defense.

 

I feel like there needn't be a specific or particular approach to applying chi to martial arts. It's just that, if you have a high level of chi, your performance will be greater in many ways.

 

You see what I'm saying? In life, strong chi helps you in many ways, and the same is probably true for martial arts.

[windwalker]

You see what I'm saying? In life, strong chi helps you in many ways, and the same is probably true for martial arts.

 

 

 

Qi has very specific properties and results when applied to the practice of martial arts.

Qi as a meaning comes from Asian martial practices.  Practicing qi gong, and CMA noted for the usage of qi and development are very different.

 

The civil quality is the inner principle. The martial quality is the outward skill. Those who have the outward skill but lack the civil principle will be consumed by reckless glory. Discarding the original purpose of the art, they will try to overpower opponents and inevitably lose.

 

Those on the other hand who have the civil principle but lack the outward skill will be distracted by meditative expectation. They will have no idea what to do in a fight, and they will be destroyed the moment it turns chaotic. To apply this art upon an opponent, you must understand both the civil and martial qualities.

 

 

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2013/09/14/explaining-taiji-principles-taiji-fa-shuo/

 

Its a common mistake that many make.

Edited December 8, 2016 by windwalker

[Prince...]

 

Spiral Force/Energy Demonstration by my friend/teacher (he's actually my kungfu uncle, but I learned about my style from him, and I talk with him more than any other teacher in our school) 

If you have more questions, I can share them with him & he can reply via video. 

[Ilovesunstyle]

I've taken martial arts for 30 years, and I can tell you that it's true. It's nothing mystical, it's just that you get totally in the groove after doing it for so many years.

 

It's like a master carpenter that has done carpentry for so many years he can place a nail all the way in the wood with one shot of the hammer. Same thing.

 

 

[Oneironaut]

I've heard older boxers (Bernard Hopkins being one) speaking of how a less athletic boxer can defeat a vigorous, younger, faster boxer with mastery of distance, timing and punching accuracy. He also spoke about being economical in footwork and offensive output to not tire yourself out. When Bernard hit about 49 or 50 his body wouldn't let him keep up and he lost to a boxer which I'm certain he would've otherwise defeated in his younger years. I'm sure Bernard could KO the average young 20 or 30 something (non boxer) in their athletic prime even at his advanced age but I also wouldn't be surprised to see a young boxer with a little less than half his skill set defeat him. The science of boxing for the most part is very dependent on one's ability to take punishment (which also declines with age) and athleticism.

 

 

What could Bernard have done in this instance? He was catching the young man with some nice shots but the young man just kept absorbing it and pressing forward and knocked Bernard right out of the ring. I sensed his defeat approaching by way of KO/TKO but not by getting knocked out of the ring. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJwRWYqddcA

 

Are the old masters that defeat younger fighters just a myth? 

 

My take is that boxing is a young mans sport. It's highly dependent on athletic ability and a 51 year old with years upon years of wear and tear on his body (and declining athletic ability) in that particular sport just isn't going to cut it. Are things different in other martial arts? 

Edited December 29, 2016 by Oneironaut

[aden]

What could Bernard have done in this instance? He was catching the young man with some nice shots but the young man just kept absorbing it and pressing forward and knocked Bernard right out of the ring. I sensed his defeat approaching by way of KO/TKO but not by getting knocked out of the ring. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJwRWYqddcA

 

Are the old masters that defeat younger fighters just a myth? 

 

My take is that boxing is a young mans sport. It's highly dependent on athletic ability and a 51 year old with years upon years of wear and tear on his body (and declining athletic ability) in that particular sport just isn't going to cut it. Are things different in other martial arts? 

 

Regardless of it is internal or external, techniques will be useless/less effective without sufficient force, speed & skill.

 

The thing is that Boxing relies on external conditioning (taking punishment, bag work, muscular/cardio conditioning, raw genetic physical reaction time) to build these things. Unfortunately, these things have a limit in how much they can grow and dwindle with age. (as we are genetically inferior puny little humans, lol) 

 

If the old masters really were capable of defeating more physically vigorous foes, it sure wasn't just with techniques. They probably also had superior force, speed & skill - although this isn't possible with external conditioning.

 

Hopefully I will find out for myself soon, as I train with a capable teacher.

Edited February 1, 2017 by aden

[windwalker]

edited:..

Edited February 2, 2017 by windwalker