Traditional Cultivation Sources

[Netero]

Greetings bums.

 

In order to understand the roots of the many contemporary systems out there and place myself in a position to properly evaluate them, I have embarked upon a study of traditional sources pertaining to Internal Cultivation and hope that some knowledgeable bums might point me in the right direction.

 

Suppose a well respected teacher, such as Jerry Alan Johnson, is instructing one to work with the Chakras. The practice might well prove to be "efficient", but let us consider this for a moment - the Tantrik texts have several models of Chakras, not just seven; they are created with a specific purpose in mind, and hence, a different model could well prove to have been more efficient for ones particular constitution. (see; http://www.tantrikstudies.org/blog/2016/2/5/the-real-story-on-the-chakras )

 

This notion, which I call the subtelty of the soul's anatomy, is likewise alluded to in Taoist Yoga by Charles L'uk - and yet I have read quite a few modern works which seems to presuppose that the Dantians are part and parcel of ones constitution.

 

Another problem is translating "Qi" as "energy" - a very arbitrary New Age notion that doesn't fit into the traditional context the idea derives from, and hence stays just that: arbitrary and out of context.

 

These are just some of the problematics associated with modern Daoism, and I much prefer not wasting my potential through a lack of knowledge, seduced by a love for tingly sensations and tall tales.

 

As I don't read Classical Chinese, I'm relying on English works and translations. I'm aware of Komjathy's PDF of "Daoist Texts in Translation" but I'm at a loss how to approach that huge corpus of works, though I figure a study of the Yijing, Cantong Qi, Neiye and Huangdi Neijing Suwen is a good place to begin.

 

Since Internal Cultivation is intertwined with areas as diverse as philosophy, cosmology, religion, astrology, alchemy, ritual, medicine and remnants of Wu 'shamanism', I more than welcome suggestions and discussions pertaining to these topics, provided the suggestions are true to tradition and the discussions kept civil.

 

In summary, I'm looking to gain an understanding of foundational ideas within the realm of Internal Cultivation through traditional sources.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Netero

[SeekerOfHealing]

You can not learn Neidan from books if you ask about it. Unless it's cook-book with all instructions which are probably in Chinese and sometimes they need teacher too.

 

I think you are asking for impossible - that why path of awareness like buddhism is pretty universal and can be learned from books because it's mostly xing related, but to cultivate ming you need true teacher.

 

There is Long Men Pai english books with all practices out there from wang liping tradition but most of them are post-natal.

Edited November 19, 2016 by SeekerOfHealing

[子泰]

Qi is implied to be energy in the Chinese language as well

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I've got a feeling you're looking down the right path, devil is both in the details and overall theory simultaneously.

I hear I King is a terrific place to start, a lot of "stuff" seems to spring from it.

It has kicked my ass repeatedly as far as understanding what the trigrams and hexagrams represent so i'm only an expert at not grasping it

 

I understand your concern about teachers, but you might want to consider trying to find one or more living sources to reference and ask for guidance. Maybe you wont find an illustrious and famous author but perhaps your local area might surprise you?

 

"It's all there" people say, but you gotta know how to read it. It doesnt seem to be hermetically sealed but a teacher could give you a jump start on the first few years of just sorting out interpretations needed to even practice fundamentals properly.

The books might agree in principle but differ in how their system is organized. How do they work together? Can they?

[Netero]

You can not learn Neidan from books if you ask about it. Unless it's cook-book with all instructions which are probably in Chinese and sometimes they need teacher too.

I think you are asking for impossible - that why path of awareness like buddhism is pretty universal and can be learned from books because it's mostly xing related, but to cultivate ming you need true teacher.

There is Long Men Pai english books with all practices out there from wang liping tradition but most of them are post-natal.

One thing I'm not intent on learning from books is something as intricate as Neidan. I think you misunderstood my point. To clarify; you use terms like xing, ming and post-natal -- where do these terms originate from, in what context do they appear in classical works, how did they change over time etc.

 

The result would be twofold; on the one hand, I would be able to judge a system theoretically, and on the other, I would be able to categorize my experiences, to aptly tell in theory and practice whether something is post-natal or pre-natal for example.

 

Qi is implied to be energy in the Chinese language as well

This could easily turn to a digression, so I will keep it short. Energy is a problematic word because it means very different things in various contexts. For example, keeping the word to it's mystical bent, "energy" can be equated with the Greek Pneuma, but it means different things for the Stoics and Aristotle, and along you get Synesius who synthesizes both views, based on Neoplatonic dynamics. One word, three different contexts. In Medieval and Renaissance times, you can equate "energy" with the Rays of Al Kindi, which is based on Aristotelian dynamics. And in the late 18th century, you can equate "energy" with the Animal Magnetism of Franz Anton Mesmer, which is based on Newtonian dynamics.

 

Whose "energy" are we exactly talking about?

[Netero]

I've got a feeling you're looking down the right path, devil is both in the details and overall theory simultaneously.

I hear I King is a terrific place to start, a lot of "stuff" seems to spring from it.

It has kicked my ass repeatedly as far as understanding what the trigrams and hexagrams represent so i'm only an expert at not grasping it

I understand your concern about teachers, but you might want to consider trying to find one or more living sources to reference and ask for guidance. Maybe you wont find an illustrious and famous author but perhaps your local area might surprise you?

"It's all there" people say, but you gotta know how to read it. It doesnt seem to be hermetically sealed but a teacher could give you a jump start on the first few years of just sorting out interpretations needed to even practice fundamentals properly.

The books might agree in principle but differ in how their system is organized. How do they work together? Can they?

I've got a hold of the Ritsema edition of the Yijing and I've got my eyes on "Fathoming the Cosmos and Ordering the World: The Yijing and Its Evolution in China" by Richard J. Smith. There is enough cross cultural comparison to keep me busy for years, but I have foundational studies to do, both in regards to Eastern and Western mysticism and magic.

 

The subject of teachers deserves it's own thread, so I won't go too much into the problematics associated with this topic. I believe my initial post adress some of these concerns well enough.

 

In regards to the basics, I recall reading years ago a reference to a Japanese work by some teacher in whatever tradition that gave very specific rules for going to the bathroom. I am not against teachers or initiations, but I have seen this attitude expressed all too often - some people just can't take a shit without the directions of a teacher.

[子泰]

This could easily turn to a digression, so I will keep it short. Energy is a problematic word because it means very different things in various contexts. For example, keeping the word to it's mystical bent, "energy" can be equated with the Greek Pneuma, but it means different things for the Stoics and Aristotle, and along you get Synesius who synthesizes both views, based on Neoplatonic dynamics. One word, three different contexts. In Medieval and Renaissance times, you can equate "energy" with the Rays of Al Kindi, which is based on Aristotelian dynamics. And in the late 18th century, you can equate "energy" with the Animal Magnetism of Franz Anton Mesmer, which is based on Newtonian dynamics.

 

Whose "energy" are we exactly talking about?

 

Must suck not to be Chinese then, good luck with finding an appropriate word.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

"Greetings bums."

 

Hi!

"In order to understand the roots of the many contemporary systems out there and place myself in a position to properly evaluate them, I have embarked upon a study of traditional sources pertaining to Internal Cultivation and hope that some knowledgeable bums might point me in the right direction."

 

Good idea.

"Suppose a well respected teacher, such as Jerry Alan Johnson, is instructing one to work with the Chakras. The practice might well prove to be "efficient", but let us consider this for a moment - the Tantrik texts have several models of Chakras, not just seven; they are created with a specific purpose in mind, and hence, a different model could well prove to have been more efficient for ones particular constitution. (see; http://www.tantrikst...-on-the-chakras )"

 

I have no idea about tantric texts since I personally study Daoism, but I would advise being careful about energy based meditation, or any kind of meditation really if you don't have a good teacher.

"This notion, which I call the subtelty of the soul's anatomy, is likewise alluded to in Taoist Yoga by Charles L'uk - and yet I have read quite a few modern works which seems to presuppose that the Dantians are part and parcel of ones constitution."

 

Dan Tian means Elixir Field, it is not a fixed item on the human anatomy.  Dan Tian is literally anywhere there is energy in the universe.  In Daoism, probably post Tang dynasty (just taking a stab at it here, because I really don't know exactly when it came into fashion) it became normal to interpret the head, chest, and lower abdomen as three dan tian which are in turn attached to a complex set of energetic meridians and vessels running all over the body.    The Dan Tian areas tend to be where Qi accumulates the most, but in very old Daoist thinking, Dan could be cultivated anywhere, for instance in the Yellow Palace Classic there are many exercises used to cultivate Dan in the organs.

"Another problem is translating "Qi" as "energy" - a very arbitrary New Age notion that doesn't fit into the traditional context the idea derives from, and hence stays just that: arbitrary and out of context."

 

Qi is a complex word in Chinese since it denotes multiple meanings. The main meaning is air, but there is another character which is written differently and also pronounced Qi which means energy refined through emptiness.  That word is specific to Daoism.

"These are just some of the problematics associated with modern Daoism, and I much prefer not wasting my potential through a lack of knowledge, seduced by a love for tingly sensations and tall tales."

 

There have always been problems with Daoism, actually, I would say that Daoism sprung up as a solution to a problem in the first place, as all things do.  Lu Dongbin was writing about this in the Song dynasty when he said that most Buddhists and Daoists end up being just like ghosts walking the earth.  New age spirituality is not a new invention of the 20th century and fake spiritualists have been a mainstay of spiritual culture since very early on.

"As I don't read Classical Chinese, I'm relying on English works and translations. I'm aware of Komjathy's PDF of "Daoist Texts in Translation" but I'm at a loss how to approach that huge corpus of works, though I figure a study of the Yijing, Cantong Qi, Neiye and Huangdi Neijing Suwen is a good place to begin."

 

Good luck, but you are more likely than not to be seriously confused.  Can Tong Qi is a very difficult book, as is Neiye.  They are hard enough to read if you are fluent in classical Chinese, but very difficult when translated to other languages because they lose so much context.   If you want to learn to read ancient texts, you should learn classical Chinese.  It will take about three years of daily study to be able to read the most simple of documents fluently, but it is well worth it.  I suggest starting with the jade emperor embryonic breathing classic, since it is under 100 words and fairly easy to understand (also directly useful to your meditation practice).

"Since Internal Cultivation is intertwined with areas as diverse as philosophy, cosmology, religion, astrology, alchemy, ritual, medicine and remnants of Wu 'shamanism', I more than welcome suggestions and discussions pertaining to these topics, provided the suggestions are true to tradition and the discussions kept civil."

 

I'm sure people will be civil with you as long as you are civil with them    

Internal cultivation might need better clarification, since that phrase can have many meanings.   Usually, it is better to try to learn one area deeply first and then move on the others.  I personally prefer meditation, since it is a direct route to realizing the nature of emptiness and developing Qi, so it dovetails nicely into other studies.

"In summary, I'm looking to gain an understanding of foundational ideas within the realm of Internal Cultivation through traditional sources."

 

the only way you can really do that is to go find a qualified teacher.  That is very difficult, since there are so many fake teachers on the market.   I know there are several people on this forum who belong to legitimate Daoist organizations, so you might consider kneeling at their doors for a bit    Otherwise you can just shoot the shit with the rest of us plebs  :) :)

[Netero]

"Greetings bums."

 

Hi!

"In order to understand the roots of the many contemporary systems out there and place myself in a position to properly evaluate them, I have embarked upon a study of traditional sources pertaining to Internal Cultivation and hope that some knowledgeable bums might point me in the right direction."

 

Good idea.

"Suppose a well respected teacher, such as Jerry Alan Johnson, is instructing one to work with the Chakras. The practice might well prove to be "efficient", but let us consider this for a moment - the Tantrik texts have several models of Chakras, not just seven; they are created with a specific purpose in mind, and hence, a different model could well prove to have been more efficient for ones particular constitution. (see; http://www.tantrikst...-on-the-chakras )"

 

I have no idea about tantric texts since I personally study Daoism, but I would advise being careful about energy based meditation, or any kind of meditation really if you don't have a good teacher.

 

"This notion, which I call the subtelty of the soul's anatomy, is likewise alluded to in Taoist Yoga by Charles L'uk - and yet I have read quite a few modern works which seems to presuppose that the Dantians are part and parcel of ones constitution."

 

Dan Tian means Elixir Field, it is not a fixed item on the human anatomy.  Dan Tian is literally anywhere there is energy in the universe.  In Daoism, probably post Tang dynasty (just taking a stab at it here, because I really don't know exactly when it came into fashion) it became normal to interpret the head, chest, and lower abdomen as three dan tian which are in turn attached to a complex set of energetic meridians and vessels running all over the body.    The Dan Tian areas tend to be where Qi accumulates the most, but in very old Daoist thinking, Dan could be cultivated anywhere, for instance in the Yellow Palace Classic there are many exercises used to cultivate Dan in the organs.

"Another problem is translating "Qi" as "energy" - a very arbitrary New Age notion that doesn't fit into the traditional context the idea derives from, and hence stays just that: arbitrary and out of context."

 

Qi is a complex word in Chinese since it denotes multiple meanings. The main meaning is air, but there is another character which is written differently and also pronounced Qi which means energy refined through emptiness.  That word is specific to Daoism.

"These are just some of the problematics associated with modern Daoism, and I much prefer not wasting my potential through a lack of knowledge, seduced by a love for tingly sensations and tall tales."

 

There have always been problems with Daoism, actually, I would say that Daoism sprung up as a solution to a problem in the first place, as all things do.  Lu Dongbin was writing about this in the Song dynasty when he said that most Buddhists and Daoists end up being just like ghosts walking the earth.  New age spirituality is not a new invention of the 20th century and fake spiritualists have been a mainstay of spiritual culture since very early on.

"As I don't read Classical Chinese, I'm relying on English works and translations. I'm aware of Komjathy's PDF of "Daoist Texts in Translation" but I'm at a loss how to approach that huge corpus of works, though I figure a study of the Yijing, Cantong Qi, Neiye and Huangdi Neijing Suwen is a good place to begin."

 

Good luck, but you are more likely than not to be seriously confused.  Can Tong Qi is a very difficult book, as is Neiye.  They are hard enough to read if you are fluent in classical Chinese, but very difficult when translated to other languages because they lose so much context.   If you want to learn to read ancient texts, you should learn classical Chinese.  It will take about three years of daily study to be able to read the most simple of documents fluently, but it is well worth it.  I suggest starting with the jade emperor embryonic breathing classic, since it is under 100 words and fairly easy to understand (also directly useful to your meditation practice).

"Since Internal Cultivation is intertwined with areas as diverse as philosophy, cosmology, religion, astrology, alchemy, ritual, medicine and remnants of Wu 'shamanism', I more than welcome suggestions and discussions pertaining to these topics, provided the suggestions are true to tradition and the discussions kept civil."

 

I'm sure people will be civil with you as long as you are civil with them    

Internal cultivation might need better clarification, since that phrase can have many meanings.   Usually, it is better to try to learn one area deeply first and then move on the others.  I personally prefer meditation, since it is a direct route to realizing the nature of emptiness and developing Qi, so it dovetails nicely into other studies.

"In summary, I'm looking to gain an understanding of foundational ideas within the realm of Internal Cultivation through traditional sources."

 

the only way you can really do that is to go find a qualified teacher.  That is very difficult, since there are so many fake teachers on the market.   I know there are several people on this forum who belong to legitimate Daoist organizations, so you might consider kneeling at their doors for a bit    Otherwise you can just shoot the shit with the rest of us plebs  :) :)

Excellent points sillybear.

 

If I may digress for a moment, I actually found your website of Daoistmeditation before I knew you browsed this forum and very much liked what I saw. Your book of Internal Elixir Cultivation was recommended by another member here who goes by the name of tumoessence, also known as Walter Ogris of the German Hermetic Archives. The daobums seems to be a very strange melting pot - strange of the good kind, of course. Walter is a long time practicioner of Franz Bardon's IIH, a system I much admire for it's structured, fundamental and wholesome approach, so I take it as a good recommendation.

 

If I may ask, what primary sources is your book built upon?

[Netero]

Anyhow, this thread didn't shoot off into the intended direction I hoped it would, so I'll close it with some final remarks.

 

Weidan seems to have largely been a religious endavour of ritual, not a mere creation of elixirs. Consequently, the three Dantians are first attested to within the religio-mystical context of Shangqing Daoism, where they're created as reflections of the Three Pure Ones of the Big Dipper. Stuart Alve Olson has an upcoming translation of the Yellow Court Scripture that looks promising and the works of Isabelle Robinet, James Miller, Poul Andersen and Stephen Bokenkamp deals with the exegesis of Shangqing scriptures, while the Baopuzi of Ge Hong gives a first-hand account of many practices of early China.

 

For Neidan proper, the Cantong Qi and Wuzhen Pian seems to be the most prominent classics, before the establishment of the Quanzhen school and it's patriarchs, where the three teachings of Daoism, Confucianism and Buddhism come together, only to be split off in various sects, such as Wu Liu Pai and the Dragon Gate Sect.

 

I have also taken a keen eye on Monkey Press and the works of Elisabeth Rochet Vallee in particular, as she expounds on many medicinal concepts such as Qi, Ying Yang and Wuxing according to classical sources (interesting enough, the Mencius appears as one of the early sources for Qi). Though the first three volumes of Jerry Alan Johnson's work looks fascinating and very comprehensive, I'm not to keen on his generalized and non-specific approach of "ancient Daoism says..."

 

In general, I think a buttom-up approach is most reasonable, exploring early Daoism and progress forward in time, with the ocassional leap here and there. It seems ridicilous to jump into a particular school of thought without having studied it's roots, influences, progressional development and how it differs from others.

 

That is my final say on the matter. I have quite a few things to see to, so I likely won't be returning back for replies.

 

Take care,

Netero