Two Questions

[Kongming]

I had two questions regarding Daoism that I've been pondering lately, though they might be fairly obscure or even unimportant in the grand scheme of things but I nonetheless find intriguing. Having done some reading in the past on the writings of Henry Corbin, which mostly deal with Iranian Sufism, Zoroastrianism, Ismailism, Esoteric Shi'ism, etc. one finds two themes that perhaps are common in Western (Near Eastern and actual Western/European/Christian) theology, namely that of the metaphysics of Light and angels. So my questions are:

 

1. Does Daoism have much to say on light and its metaphysical quality? For example, the Supreme or Absolute is often called the "Light of Lights" or imagined as a supersensible Sun, and all of reality including the material world is seen as an emanation or form of light. I know in classical Daoism the Dao itself is sometimes described as 玄 (xuan) which can mean "dark" but also mysterious and also that the Dao is described as transcending dualities such as light and dark, but is there any relationship that any of you know of between light and the Dao or perhaps light and man/immortals, etc.?

 

2. Do you believe the 仙 (xian) or immortals or perhaps the gods of Daoism can be seen as the equivalent to angels, if not in a Western Christian sense perhaps in a more general or Zoroastrian sense? To quote Henry Corbin regarding Ismaili esotericism:

 

 

 

Man is called, by right of his origin and if he consents, to an angelomorphosis, his acceptance of which precisely regulates his aptitude for theophanic visions

 

In other words, man is to become an "angel", much in the same way the goal of Daoism is to achieve the golden elixir, become an immortal, and unite with the Dao.

 

In short, how should one think of angels in relation to Daoism?

[grassmountiansage]

2. Do you believe the 仙 (xian) or immortals or perhaps the gods of Daoism can be seen as the equivalent to angels, if not in a Western Christian sense perhaps in a more general or Zoroastrian sense? To quote Henry Corbin regarding Ismaili esotericism:

 

 

In other words, man is to become an "angel", much in the same way the goal of Daoism is to achieve the golden elixir, become an immortal, and unite with the Dao.

 

In short, how should one think of angels in relation to Daoism?

 

Your on to something keep going.

[thelerner]

No expert, but I bet your #2 describes the human need for a savior, a universal need for a myth of salvation.  Modern filtrations from tech terror of the cold war spawning aliens, or our colorful modern expression and need of the superhero genre.  Seemingly disparate but coming from the same place, and need. 

 

#1, in alchemical taoism, a few traditions use the term 'turn the light around'.  'Turn the light around' and you've gotten to the next level.  I waver between this being a metaphor for attention or literal light seen by the inner eye as a mental/psychological practice activates inner/pituitary functions.  

[grassmountiansage]

Kong Ming,

 

There is a very real connection with Taoism Buddhism and Judaism

 

Your line of questioning and thinking is right.

. 

[dwai]

I had two questions regarding Daoism that I've been pondering lately, though they might be fairly obscure or even unimportant in the grand scheme of things but I nonetheless find intriguing. Having done some reading in the past on the writings of Henry Corbin, which mostly deal with Iranian Sufism, Zoroastrianism, Ismailism, Esoteric Shi'ism, etc. one finds two themes that perhaps are common in Western (Near Eastern and actual Western/European/Christian) theology, namely that of the metaphysics of Light and angels. So my questions are:

 

1. Does Daoism have much to say on light and its metaphysical quality? For example, the Supreme or Absolute is often called the "Light of Lights" or imagined as a supersensible Sun, and all of reality including the material world is seen as an emanation or form of light. I know in classical Daoism the Dao itself is sometimes described as 玄 (xuan) which can mean "dark" but also mysterious and also that the Dao is described as transcending dualities such as light and dark, but is there any relationship that any of you know of between light and the Dao or perhaps light and man/immortals, etc.?

 

2. Do you believe the 仙 (xian) or immortals or perhaps the gods of Daoism can be seen as the equivalent to angels, if not in a Western Christian sense perhaps in a more general or Zoroastrian sense? To quote Henry Corbin regarding Ismaili esotericism:

 

 

In other words, man is to become an "angel", much in the same way the goal of Daoism is to achieve the golden elixir, become an immortal, and unite with the Dao.

 

In short, how should one think of angels in relation to Daoism?

We can't think of Dao in dualistic terms. Dao is one though the 10,000 things rise from and fall back into it. It is beyond concepts of light and dark.

 

But in my experience there is pure white light (which is lightless) that is visible to the inner eye. That light is not Dao though, it is spiritual energy (Shen). It then needs to be cultivated into emptiness.

[awaken]

Angels

 

Zhang boduan said "一 饒君了悟真如性，未免抛身卻入身。何似更能修大藥，頓超無漏作真人。"

 

真人 means real person. it's an inner view.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Court_Classic

 

Yellow Court Classic 黃庭經 describe these real persons in detail.

 

 

 

Lights

 

Many dao classics describe lights in different words.

 

But I don't know how to translate all of them.

 

烏肝，兔髓，黍米，霜飛，蓮花，圓月，三寸陽神，丈六金身，紫金丹，金丹，大小還丹，鉛，礦，日，紅日，潭，瑤池，金母，etc

 

I have seen so many kinds of lights for 27 years.

Edited November 23, 2016 by awaken

[Daeluin]

Yang and Yin, Heaven and Earth

Light and Matter, Light and Heavy

 

Their duality conveys a deeper unity.

Is it dark, or can we just not see it?

 

dao de jing 14, Jonathan Star

 

Eyes look but cannot see it

Ears listen but cannot hear it

Hands grasp but cannot touch it

Beyond the senses lies the great Unity --

    invisible, inaudible, intangible

 

What rises up appears bright

What settles down appears dark

Yet there is neither darkness nor light

    just an unbroken dance of shadows

From nothingness to fullness

    and back again to nothingness

This formless form

This imageless image

    cannot be grasped by mind or might

Try to face it

    In what place will you stand?

Try to follow it

    To what place will you go?

 

Know That which is beyond all beginnings

    and you will know everything here and now

Know everything in this moment

    and you will know the Eternal Tao

 

----

 

In qigong, when I embrace the light/yang/heaven, it isn't sunshine. And yet it feels similar.

 

The extremes of matter and light are just that, extremes. Between them, within their unified states, is where things become subtle. Just like the diversity of life on this planet.

 

In the subtle, there are new layers of yin and yang, perhaps like those we feel in qigong. Between them, in the unity precluded of those dualities, there are yet new layers, even more subtle. The deeper it goes, the more mysterious, the more hidden, the more all encompassing and unified. For the inner contains the seed of the outer.

 

In terms of angels and immortals, are they not simply beings that exist within the subtler layers? Do we not hear of all manner of spiritual beings among us? Do we not even hear of angles who have embodied?

 

It is said there is a heavy layer of our soul and a light layer - upon death they separate, and within the subtle there are earthly ghosts and spiritual ghosts. And yet, if these pieces of soul could be merged to a greater degree, then upon death perhaps there would be less separation, and a unified embodiment of that soul would exist as a more subtle being within a more unified layer of reality.

 

 

 

To me it all follows the same pattern, and resonates within reason. But don't let my words paint your beliefs for you. Even mine change over time, as the subtleties pervade... :)

[words]

the thing with all scriptures, teachings and traditions is that they are metaphors, rather than definitions. they all try to be as clear and suggestive as possible, but there's a limit they can not transcend, as what they talk about is prior to words and concepts.

 

another thing is that they're conveyed in terms and concepts specific to that time's understanding. regardless of the knowing from where it sprung, the language and the concepts belong to that era. what i mean by that is that for modern man 'light' means something different than it meant for someone living in the time the daoism emerged, even if defines the same thing. something like man's relation to light went from solar clocks to solar panels and there's a lot of data in between that the mind works with when reading the word.

 

What I mean to say is that one would have to read light  or light of lights with the mind of someone living in that time, to have a better grasp of what it means in the context. 

 

Rather than filtering it through what you know about light and what it means for you, try contemplate the play of light and dark on something simple and old like this

 

 

to me that's like getting a bit closer to the mind that came up with the metaphor and that gives me a better chance to get it.

 

I don't know, for me personally, the simple things always bear more insight than analyzing and connecting intricate networks of dots. 

 

In short, how should one think of angels in relation to Daoism?

 

there is no should. however you see it, that's your starting point. it'll clarify in time. for you. in your own framework.

[awaken]

In the absolute sense, I don't really have experience of perfect harmony (as far as I know). But I have plenty of experience with relative increases in harmony. Doing qigong, getting to a point where there is less internal noise from the mind and different body spirits can change the entire situation so that the room looks brighter.

 

In fact, almost all situations where there is a quietude within different layers of body and mind, there is something going on with light. Quietude, I presume, happens when there is less dissonance; in order to have business or activity, something needs to be broken to account for the forced movement. When things are natural, harmony can happen and things assemble into the more obvious stuff of light or yang (with yin supporting it, though not directly see-able).

 

Whatever the specific situation, if there is an all-encompassing decrease of inner chatter (of some sort or another) or simply a sharp removal of something that was out of place, there will be effects like increased brightness (in the room/area that I am in or can see) or there will be little flashes.

 

Perhaps that's why people associate "good ideas" or "Aha moments" with a lightbulb flashing on.

 

So yes, I do have direct experience of some sort with what I write about. But it doesn't sound as impressive when it's not couched in abstract metaphysical terms like yin and yang.

The little flash is called 黍米 in dan dao.

 

After 黍米，we can 入定。

[Swede]

Kong Ming,

 

There is a very real connection with Taoism Buddhism and Judaism

 

Your line of questioning and thinking is right.

.

 

 

How?

 

Very briefly, as a reference point, so I can investigate further, if you don't mind.

Cheers