"a student of "John Chang" "

[portcraig]

Sean, Stealing chi from another living thing such as an animal (and causing them to die) to benefit yourself in your spiritual practice in my opinion is psychic vampirism. Think of the most spiritual and holy persons you have met or read about. Do you think they would partake in this practice? Craig

Edited December 9, 2007 by portcraig

[sunshine]

No spin doctoring please Harry. The question at hand isn't about the morality of eating meat. We can bring that up in a seperate thread if you like.

 

I don't think it is spin doctoring, O.R. To me there is big difference between "just" questioning things and "judging" them. If I want to judge them, I feel, I should be in the position to judge them. Believe me. I have my troubles with the bull-issue... BUT: I eat meat. The process of killing animals in order to serve me meat is pretty cruel indeed (I have seen documentaries about it)... So: if I were to judge these masters as doing a "cruel deed" I could hardly do that from my position as a meat eater... further: once again. I believe to judge someone on their level from our position that seems light years away from them to be a pretty difficult task...

 

In my humble opinion, our higher self always knows what is "right" and "wrong", but the ego clouds the truth. When I find myself trying to rationalize and justify a given action, then it is usually a sure sign that the ego is at play for it's own self serving desires.

 

What is "our higher self"... most people's higher self is possibly pretty scattered and not able to either truly know "right" from "wrong" or, if it is, not able to properly communicate it to us for many possible reasons. If it were that simple we'd have a lot less problems in the world I assume.

 

There are quite a few who have no troubles with the bull-thing at all. They are not rationalizing anything as to them all is right without one doubt. So: would your conclusion be their "higher self" is less right than those of those who "intuitively know" it is "wrong"?

 

The "deeds" only "have to be" justified and explained as they are questioned. Without them being questioned there would not be a reason to explain them, which one can call "justification & rationalization".

 

I think I am on the safe side to say that not one holy person has a clear paper in terms of never being questioned at all. And I think I am on the safe side to say that each and every of them used "rationalization & justification" which in terms of objectice truth might not be at all, but in the eyes of the oberserver sure are.

 

The whole Matrix idea is a very slippery slope, and I believe ultimately leads one to the terrible "isms" of despair: skepticism, relativism, nihilism, solipsim etc... You might find the Spanish existential philosopher Miguel de Unamuno interesting in this regard.

 

Thank you for mentioning Miguel de Unamuno to me. And indeed. The matrix idea is a very slipperey slope, as it each try to understand and answer the questions why we are here and were do we go, what actually are we?

 

I also have faith that I have a higher self which is intimately connected to this ordering principle. When someone presents me with reason-based rhetorical arguments that run contrary to what my higher self tell me, I always opt for the latter.

 

I have given my thought on the idea of a "higher self". If it indeed is there, is fully functional AND you have a working connection to it AND you know how to actually and truly interprete it you are indeed a lucky soul. But I wonder then why you are still on the search? It should have shown you the right thing and how to get there long time ago I assume...

 

I think you overthink things brother.

 

That is indeed true. But I trust the world of thinking more to a point than the world based on feeling that is often covered by countless filters that do not allow one to truly feel or to feel truly.

 

I sincerely hope you find truth Harry. It may not be as far away as you seem to think.

 

I hope that for myself and sure for you too, O.R.

 

and I know. The truth is right under my feet but the layers between it and me are too many for now and that is the reason why there is the process of peeling them away one by one...

 

this, at the end of the day, can only done by practice

 

hardly by talk

 

time for my meditation...

 

 

Harry

[DentyDao]

Edited December 10, 2007 by seandenty

[vitagong]

So Basicly David is not capable of cultivating it for himself. From the time that David introduced to Mo Pai he never achieved anything? but just constantly looking around and talking with other Masters collecting information it seems. And now, those who follow him can only walk the same path, how is a student of David expected to achieve anything any other way?

 

I seriously doubt that this is a Method used by Teacher John Chang.

Edited December 10, 2007 by vitagong

[DentyDao]

So Basically David is not capable of cultivating it for himself.

No, not at all. David has worked hard the last fifteen years and achieved a great deal. He accomplished what he has without the aid of the masters, training up to 8 hours per day at some points in his training. Later, if you followed the discussion, he did receive empowerment to assist the process, but this is true of all Lei Shan Dao training.

 

From the time that David introduced to Mo Pai he never achieved anything, but just constantly looking around and talking with other Masters collecting information. And now, those who follow him can only walk the same path, how is a student of David expected to achieve anything any other way?

Are you kidding, David achieved a great deal years ago. He is very accomplished. What are you talking about? Do you even know?

 

Many of his students are doing the same successfully. Most of David's students are very positive and inspiring to be around and grateful for their time with David.

 

Another important point is the fact that David has several masters, some of whom do accept those students who reach a good level, including Jiang. David is quite capable as a teacher and guide, but his students have many options and a variety of interests as well as different goals with different masters.

I seriously doubt that this is a Method used by Teacher John Chang.

Say what you will. Your spectulation has no meaning. While the methods are different with many similarities, the goal and result is the same. This is very clear. There are actually twelve methods and techniques to cut the cords written about it Kostas' book. Different Pai within Lei Shan Dao, of which Mo Pai is a branch, use some or all of the twelve. Mo Pai applications call for around four of the twelve.

 

Jiang and his brother have trained over one hundred successful students in Da Mo Pai to achieve the so called level four. Jiang's master is well above level 30, possibly much higher. You can read about some of the things he and Jiang can do from the people who saw and felt them on the foundation forum; which include all of the things written about such masters and far, far more. Why fall in line with the gabby talkers who have nothing better to do than cut people down. At least do your research and present an intelligent comment.

Edited December 10, 2007 by seandenty

[vitagong]

Sean, all I can say is that I know more than you think. I shall not go further with it as I serioulsy want things to rest.

 

I feel you are to public and all of these conversations should really be behind doors, but thats your choice. The problems you guys now face are all self created and a result of actions.

[Radu]

Hello.Very interesting posts Sean, thanks.I hope I'll be one day David's student.I wonder if he knows wich will be his students and what will be the outcome of their training.

Good luck,

Radu

[HouTian]

Jiang must be a true master.Who else could extract so much money from David Verdesi' looool

[Adam West]

Is it just me, or am I the only one having difficulty getting through Sean's posts on LSD? I have never encountered writings so utterly composed of vitriolic pretension, fundamentalism and unsubstantiated hot air. One un-granted presupposition and unsupported assumption after another in an attempt to defend arguments that are so weak and circular, it is embarrassing; yet ironically, the author endlessly reiterates his embarrassment and contempt of other's writings. I truly can't stomach more than a few paragraphs.

 

My oppologies to the forum for the subjective and personal nature of this post.

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

[DentyDao]

[rex]

Is it just me, or am I the only one having difficulty getting through Sean's posts on LSD?

No, they're chilling.

[DentyDao]

My oppologies to the forum for the subjective and personal nature of this post.

Why not say something you won't have to appologize for? Go find your self and grow up a little.

[gendao]

Edited December 10, 2007 by vortex

[Radu]

My pleasure Radu. I wish you the best in your journey and, when you are a little older, who knows what can happen

Thanks, I wish you the same ,

Radu

Edited December 10, 2007 by Radu

[DentyDao]

[gendao]

[nutting]

Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism ALL object to killing animals unless it is absolutely necessary.

The strictest are Buddhism and Hinduism which require all devout practitioners to be vegetarians. Taoism allows animals to be intentionally killed for food or if attacked by the animal.

These are the only conditions for killing animals. Also, whilst generic TCM sometimes involves animal parts, Taoist Traditional Chinese Medicine NEVER include animal parts.

 

There are some people in this thread that talk like they have it all figured out. They believe what their teacher taught them represent the complete views and practices of Taoism. Caveat emptor.

Edited December 19, 2007 by nutting

[qijack]

There are some people in this thread that talk like they have it all figured out. They believe what their teacher taught them represent the complete views and practices of Taoism. Caveat emptor.

 

 

It sure looks like you think you have it all figured out to..Do you really?

[nutting]

It sure looks like you think you have it all figured out to..Do you really?

 

 

Wow, you really call yourself a "Tao Master" ?

 

Here's something for "neo" Taoists who think original unadulterated Taoism accepts reincarnation:

 

http://baharna.com/karma/taoist.htm

Edited December 23, 2007 by nutting

[qijack]

I never said i was a dao master lol..Far from it actually

Edited December 23, 2007 by truth

[林愛偉]

 

 

The question of "sucking out the life force of another creature" is one I am thinking about. From my limited point of understanding I have troubles with it, but IF what David says IS true, that these masters are able to see the cause and effect on a karmic level I don't know how many hundreds of years into the future and the past... THEN what does my limited understanding mean?

 

And IF it is true that the animal's Shen is raised in the process or "freed" THEN: how cruel is it?

 

 

Harry

 

Hi Harry,

 

I just wanted to clear up something for a lot of people based on what you have wrote.

 

Any disciple of the Buddha is not to kill for ANY means whatsoever. Any Buddha, Bodhisattva, Immortal, God, Dragon, Heavenly Demon CANNOT make any living being leave the wheel of birth and death in ANY manner. If they could, they would have been doing it already and there would no longer be living beings in this Universe. All they can do is teach the methods which result in liberation, yet the cultivator must do the work to realize the result.

 

Now, with that said, I hope there is clarity on the fact that taking the energy of ANY being is called Hei Dao, or the Black Way, the Left-handed path, the Dark arts, also known as Externalist teachings.

 

These ways aren't wholesome. You can't take the words from people who are STEALING living being's energy. That is morally wrong and totally NOT WHOLESOME CULTIVATION IN ANY MANNER! Plus if these animals aren't willing to do it, they are scared! If it was so wholesome, the animals would literally go there personally and sit and die on the spot. But the animals aren't that awakened.

 

Animals have walked into Buddhist and Daoist temples to learn to cultivate the way. On There Own! Walking to Buddhist temples, the tigers don't eat meat, they sit amongst the Sangha and listen to recitations, and sutras and Dharma lectures. That is willingness to leave the cycles of Birth and Death.

 

Also, an Arhat, as David likes to claim those Buddhist Monks are, do not walk on the ground. They are lifted about 2-3 inches from the floor from the COMPASSION they have for living beings. Meaning they will not touch the floor when walking for fea of crushing ants and grass, and other little things that live.

 

No Arhat would kill others for money and for benefiting their cultivation. It is the First Major Bodhisattva Precept, and that should point directly to what is not proper and what is.

 

People, make no excuse that precepts are man-made, blah blah blah It is cultivation, not religious views.

 

There is no need to get confused with what anyone says about taking bulls. It is simple ... It is wrong and a great display of Demonic behavior.

 

Peace and Blessings Merry Christmas!

 

Lin

 

P.S.- I was attacked by a Bull over the summer in the country side out here, and I didn't have to kill it to make it stop and walk away after it charged at me full force. No violence needed whatsoever.

 

If there are cultivators killing animals to survive, they have to check their level of cultivation.

 

Peace and Blessings my brothers and sisters.

Edited December 25, 2007 by 林愛偉

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[HouTian]

What makes you so sure your view is accurate here? Do you have proof that these notions are absolute? How are you qualified to make judgments on the actions of an immortal or anyone for that matter? Is it possible that your view is limited?

 

It is a bold move to speak with such an air of omniscience.

 

 

 

Young man it will do you some good to stop speaking of things you know nothing about.

[林愛偉]

False, False = True. True, True = False.

 

Tell a false, people believe it to be true. Tell a truth and people believe it to be false.

[Procurator]

Any Buddha, Bodhisattva, Immortal, God, Dragon, Heavenly Demon CANNOT make any living being leave the wheel of birth and death in ANY manner. If they could, they would have been doing it already

why would they?

 

... It is wrong and a great display of Demonic behavior.

 

That is correct except it never happened. This whole verdesi thing is a fraud, including the bull charade.