Taoist view of Afterlife?

[Marblehead]

Yes, exactly. But plants reproduce and they transmit genes for life to perpetuate. So do cats.

 

But it would be interesting to define what is life? What is life for a plant and what is life for a cat?

 

True, but again a different concept.  Life after life is, what?, an oxymoron?  a contradiction?

[blackstar212]

This is one of the best articles I have read on death and an afterlife.

 

http://troublewithhammers.blogspot.com/2012/06/alan-watts-on-death.html

[Drifting_Through_Infinity]

The first and foremost question is whether there is a soul separate from the body and therefore a before-birth. Is there any mention of a separate soul in Taoist literature?

[dawei]

The first and foremost question is whether there is a soul separate from the body and therefore a before-birth. Is there any mention of a separate soul in Taoist literature?

 

Define soul... and body...  

 

You're asking two overlapping questions.   

[awaken]

三魂七魄，肝藏魂，肺藏魄，魂為陽，魄為陰

 

鬼ghost，魑魅魍魎，孤魂野鬼，

鬼,人所归为鬼。——《说文》

众生必死,死必归士,此之谓鬼。——《礼记·祭义》

载鬼一车。——《易·睽》

为鬼为蜮。——《诗·小雅·何人斯》

苍颉作书鬼夜哭。——《淮南子·本经》

身既死兮神以灵,子魂魄兮为鬼雄。——《楚辞·屈原·国殇》

吾作此书时,尚是世中一人;汝看此书时,吾已成为阴间一鬼。——林觉民《与妻书》

(3) 又如:鬼伯(鬼王);鬼雄(鬼中的强者);鬼物(鬼怪,鬼魅。有别于生人,故称鬼物);鬼教(说阴间鬼神之事)

(4) 万物的精怪 [goblin;demon;spirit]

鬼者,老物之精也。——《论衡·订鬼》

庶人庶士无庙,死曰鬼。——《礼记·祭法》

山鬼吹灯灭,厨人语夜阑。——唐· 杜甫《移居公安山馆》

僧是愚氓犹可训,妖为鬼蜮必成灾。——毛泽东《七律·和郭沫若同志》

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_Stories_from_a_Chinese_Studio

This is a novel about Chinese ghosts. 聊齋誌異

 

 

黃泉，陰曹地府，陰間，the place that ghosts stay

 

閻羅王 the king of 陰間

 

天界 the heaven

 

《禮記·郊特牲》：「魂氣歸於天，形魄歸於地。」注曰：「魂者神也，陽也，氣也。魄者精也，陰也，形也。」

 

魂 and 魄 both are translated to "soul"

 

But in Chinese these two words have two different meanings

 

魂 belongs to Yang.

 

魄 belongs to Ying.

 

If a person's 魂 is higher than 魄，he or she may go to heaven.

 

If a person's 魄 is higher than 魂，he or she may go to hail.

 

鍾呂傳道集

The Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji

http://www.taoiststudy.com/taoist_alchemy/zhong-lü-chuan-dao-ji

 

「而於塵世入蓬島，升於洞天，升於陽天，而升三清，是皆道成之士。」

「非不欲開陳大道，蓋世人業重福薄，不信天機，重財輕命，願為下鬼」

「仙有五等者，鬼仙、人仙、地仙、神仙、天仙之不等，皆是仙也。鬼仙不離於鬼，人仙不離於人，地仙不離於地，神仙不離於神，天仙不離於天。」

 

 

The more Yang 魂 becomes the higher 仙.

 

The more Ying 魄 becomes the lower ghost.

Edited December 2, 2016 by awaken

[SeekerOfHealing]

Very nice post awaken, what about ling (lingshen) ?

[Marblehead]

The first and foremost question is whether there is a soul separate from the body and therefore a before-birth. Is there any mention of a separate soul in Taoist literature?

 

To my knowledge, no.  There is mention of ghosts and spirits but I think those are casual carry-overs of older Chinese culture and not really Taoist.

[awaken]

Very nice post awaken, what about ling (lingshen) ?

I do not know what is ling.

 

靈？靈神？

 

In ancient Chinese, 靈ling does not mean "soul"

 

There is no "lingshen", only "shenling".神靈

 

事神的女巫。楚辭．屈原．九歌．東皇太一：「靈偃蹇

　　兮姣服，芳菲菲兮滿堂。」王逸．注：「靈，謂巫也。

　　」

　鬼神。詩經．商頌．殷武：「赫赫厥聲，濯濯厥靈。」

　　孔穎達．正義：「其見尊敬如神靈也。」明．徐弘祖．

　　徐霞客遊記．卷四下．黔遊日記二：「此山靈招我，不

　　可失也。」

　魂魄。如：「靈魂」。南朝梁．江淹．待罪江南思北歸

　　賦：「願歸靈於上國，雖坎軻而不惜身。」清．林覺民

　　．與妻訣別書：「則吾之死，吾靈尚依依汝旁也，汝不

　　必以無侶悲。」

　人的精神。南朝梁．劉勰．文心雕龍．情采：「若乃綜

　　述性靈，敷寫器象。」

　最精明能幹者。書經．泰誓上：「惟人，萬物之靈。」

　靈柩的簡稱。如：「停靈」、「守靈」。兒女英雄傳．

　　第十七回：「那口靈就拱在堂屋正中，姑娘跪在靈右，

　　候著還禮。」

　姓。如戰國時晉國有靈輒。

 

明曉事理。莊子．天地：「大惑者終身不解，大愚者終

　　身不靈。」

　保佑。國語．吳語：「孤豈敢自多，先王之鍾鼓，寔式

　　靈之。」

 

神妙、奇異。文選．謝靈運．登江中孤嶼詩：「表靈物

　　莫賞，蘊真誰為傳。」

　應驗。老殘遊記．第四回：「你老不信，試試我的話，

　　看靈不靈？」

　機敏、不呆滯。如：「機靈」、「心靈手巧」。明．徐

　　弘祖．徐霞客遊記．卷十上．滇遊日記十三：「無霓裳

　　而骨節皆靈，掩鮫綃而丰神獨迥。」

　美好、善。文選．潘岳．閑居賦：「竹木蓊藹，靈果參

　　差。」唐．白居易．修香山寺記：「靈跡勝概，靡不周

[awaken]

To my knowledge, no.  There is mention of ghosts and spirits but I think those are casual carry-overs of older Chinese culture and not really Taoist.

You should read The Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji.

 

It is a famous dan dao classics.

[Marblehead]

You should read The Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji.

 

It is a famous dan dao classics.

 

Thanks.  You are not the first one to recommend that I do more reading.  I have passed on all the other recommendations.  Truth is, when I first started reading the TTC I did attempt to read some of the other stuff.  I had to discard it because it caused too many conflicts for my mind and at the time my roots in Nietzschean philosophy.

[SeekerOfHealing]

By ling I understand 靈

[awaken]

Thanks. You are not the first one to recommend that I do more reading. I have passed on all the other recommendations. Truth is, when I first started reading the TTC I did attempt to read some of the other stuff. I had to discard it because it caused too many conflicts for my mind and at the time my roots in Nietzschean philosophy.

Yes, everyone has the right to believe what he wants to believe.

 

 

 

Dear seeker

 

Only Christian call ling as "soul"

 

Chinese call linghoun 靈魂 as "soul"

 

靈 ling is used to be a adjective and 魂 houn is the noun.

 

So houn 魂 is "soul"

 

So Chinese say 魂歸西天 houn go back to the west heaven,

 

But don't say 靈歸西天.

Edited December 2, 2016 by awaken

[SeekerOfHealing]

Thank you very much, superb explanation I actually base my idea of ling from Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji

[Drifting_Through_Infinity]

Is there a before-birth? Is there something that goes on after death?

[awaken]

魂

Hun

 

 

魂,阳气也。——《说文》

人生始化为魄,既生魄,阳曰魂。——《左传·昭公七年》

聊乐我魂。——《韩诗·出其东门》

魂者,精气也。——《论衡·纪妖》

精气为物,游魂为变。——《易·系辞》

随神而来往者谓之魂。——《灵枢经》

魂去尸长留。——《玉台新咏·古诗为焦仲卿妻作》

魂悸以魄动。——唐· 李白《梦游天姥吟留别》

[Kodoninja]

 

 

Drifting_Through_Infinity

 

Is there a before-birth? Is there something that goes on after death?

Hey Drifting, I can talk about my own experiences but I'm not sure about how that relates to the Taoist beliefs. As for the first part of the question, yes there is a before birth. I have a very lucid first memory of being contained within an intense blue light, as if I was a part of the light. One other close friend of mine, who has some natural attainment(possibly inherited?) confirmed that his first memory was of being contained within a bright burning red light. No matter what though, it was only a semi-conscious state. There was no direct thoughts, wants or desires just existence. 

 

As for the second part of your question, I had an NDE once in the hospital. Of course, this doesn't count as actually dying but it was close enough to bring an end to my own fear of death. Basically it felt orgasmic, like an orgasm that permeated through my whole body(each nerve). I saw bright golden light that enveloped and also warmed my entire body. It was so comfortable that I didn't really want to leave, but I felt a pulling away and then I returned to my body.

 

To try and relate that to Taoist beliefs, it's kind of difficult. It was only just a personal experience, and there are multiple beliefs within Taoism(depending on the sect and origins). Some schools teach about Hun 魂 and Po 魄, the two separate souls that sort of create a spritual structure. Other sects believe that there are multiple Hun and Po and then also Shen that reside within our internal organs. It is my own personal belief that the pre-birth state is Po. Then once the Po departs to the corpeal vessal(Hun), a proper structure is formed and thus you have consciousness. Please take that with a grain of salt, I only wrote about it in hope that it may give you more perspective. Ultimately, you must go find the answers yourself, just as all of us do.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Kodoninja

[awaken]

人生始化曰魄。——《左传·昭公七年》。注:“形也,既生魄,阳曰魂。疏:附形之灵为魄。”

 

According to 左傳， Po 魄 begins after birth.

 

 

魄,阴神也。——《说文》

 

According to 說文，Po is the consciousness of ego.

 

So only if we get the body, we can have Po.

 

Before-birth and after-death, there is no Po.

 

 

三魂七魄 does not means three Huns and seven Pos.

 

Three is not a number, it is a sequence which comes from Yi-Jin.

 

One person only has one Hun and one Po, not three Huns and seven Pos.

Edited December 2, 2016 by awaken

[dawei]

I found this many years ago and here it is:

 

Taoist Models of Hun and Po, Part One

 

Taoist Models of Hun and Po, Part Two

[Andrei]

No, I think Hun and Po aspects of our souls which are represented symbolically by the Tiger and Dragon, but what they really represent is our reptilian and mammalian brain with all psychological aspects implied.

Harmonizing them means having a safe life in a healthy body and a sane mind.

[Marblehead]

Is there a before-birth? Is there something that goes on after death?

 

Yep.  Something happened before my birth.

[Drifting_Through_Infinity]

Hey Drifting, I can talk about my own experiences but I'm not sure about how that relates to the Taoist beliefs. As for the first part of the question, yes there is a before birth. I have a very lucid first memory of being contained within an intense blue light, as if I was a part of the light. One other close friend of mine, who has some natural attainment(possibly inherited?) confirmed that his first memory was of being contained within a bright burning red light. No matter what though, it was only a semi-conscious state. There was no direct thoughts, wants or desires just existence. 

 

As for the second part of your question, I had an NDE once in the hospital. Of course, this doesn't count as actually dying but it was close enough to bring an end to my own fear of death. Basically it felt orgasmic, like an orgasm that permeated through my whole body(each nerve). I saw bright golden light that enveloped and also warmed my entire body. It was so comfortable that I didn't really want to leave, but I felt a pulling away and then I returned to my body.

 

To try and relate that to Taoist beliefs, it's kind of difficult. It was only just a personal experience, and there are multiple beliefs within Taoism(depending on the sect and origins). Some schools teach about Hun 魂 and Po 魄, the two separate souls that sort of create a spritual structure. Other sects believe that there are multiple Hun and Po and then also Shen that reside within our internal organs. It is my own personal belief that the pre-birth state is Po. Then once the Po departs to the corpeal vessal(Hun), a proper structure is formed and thus you have consciousness. Please take that with a grain of salt, I only wrote about it in hope that it may give you more perspective. Ultimately, you must go find the answers yourself, just as all of us do.

 

I really appreciate this post. It seems more though like a descent from the Tao than it does a ghost possessing a body upon it's own will. I'm so confused, because what if a ghost does possess a body upon it's own will? What if half of us are human souls created by our bodies and the other half were once entities? So confused now.

Astral projection does NOT prove life after death at all. The fact that most people report there being a "silver cord" proves the opposite. I'm so confused and don't know what to believe 

[awaken]

3 Huns and 7 Pos is a situation ofmisunderstanding of Yi-ing.

 

3 means tree chi, does not means 3 Huns.

 

3 means the third chi- tree chi.木氣

[Brian]

I really appreciate this post. It seems more though like a descent from the Tao than it does a ghost possessing a body upon it's own will. I'm so confused, because what if a ghost does possess a body upon it's own will? What if half of us are human souls created by our bodies and the other half were once entities? So confused now.

Astral projection does NOT prove life after death at all. The fact that most people report there being a "silver cord" proves the opposite. I'm so confused and don't know what to believe

Don't believe, just be.

 

It's an interesting topic but in what way would understanding the Taoist view of afterlife impact your behavior today?

[munky]

.

Edited August 23, 2023 by munky

[Marblehead]

I'm so confused and don't know what to believe 

Believe nothing.  Rely on what you observe in nature.