Mair 4:2

[Marblehead]

When Sir High, Duke of She, {{She Kung Tzukao, a minister of the southern kingdom of Ch'u.}} was about to depart on a mission to Ch'i, {{A powerful northern kingdom.}} he inquired of Confucius, saying,  "The mission entrusted to me by the king is a very weighty one, but I expect that as ambassador the treatment given to me by Ch'i, though quite respectful, will not be attentive.  One cannot push even a common man, how much less a head of state!  This makes me very anxious.  You have often told me, `Only through the Way can one reach a happy conclusion in any affair, whether large or small.  If one does not succeed in an affair, then there will surely be trouble from the way men react.  If one does succeed, there will surely be trouble due to a dislocation of yin and yang.  Only a person of integrity can escape trouble whether he succeeds or not.'  I stick to plain fare and eschew fine cuisine, so that my kitchen boys never feel as though they have to cool themselves off.  Yet, this morning I received my commission and in the evening I'm drinking ice water.  I feel like I'm burning up inside!  I haven't even been exposed to the actual circumstances of the affair and already I'm suffering from a dislocation of yin and yang.  And if I do not succeed in this affair, there will surely be trouble from the way men will react.  Faced with both of these troubles, it is more than I as minister can bear.  Tell me, sir, what I should do."

 

"For all under heaven," said Confucius, "there are two great precepts:  one is destiny and the other is duty.  A child's love of her parents is destiny and is inseparable from her heart.  A subject's service to his lord is duty.  No matter where one goes, there is always a lord from whom one cannot escape in heaven or on earth.  This is what I mean by 'great precepts.'  Accordingly, one who serves one's parents and makes them secure regardless of the situation has attained the ultimate in filialness.  One who serves one's lord and makes him secure regardless of the conditions has achieved the fullness of loyalty.  One who attends to one's own mind and who is not easily diverted by sorrow and joy, realizing their inevitability and accepting them as if they were destiny, has attained the ultimate of integrity.  One who is a subject or a son indeed sometimes has no alternatives.  Then he must carry out his affairs according to circumstances and forget about his own person.  What leisure has he for loving life and despising death?  Thus, sir, you may proceed on your mission.

 

"Allow me to report what I have heard:  in diplomacy, states that are near must rely on trust to maintain their ties, while those that are distant must resort to words to show their sincerity and words must be conveyed by someone.  Now, one of the most difficult things in the world is to convey the pleasure or displeasure of two parties to each other.  If both parties are pleased, their words will surely be full of exaggerated promise.  If both parties are displeased, their words will surely be full of exaggerated insult.  Any sort of exaggeration is false.  Where there is falseness, trust is missing.  And when trust is missing, the one who conveys the message is in danger.  Therefore, in the Legal Counsels it is said, 'Transmit the gist of their sentiments, not their exaggerated words, and you may perhaps preserve yourself whole.'

 

"Moreover, those who contest for supremacy with cleverness begin openly but invariably end up in deception.  In their excesses, they are full of chicanery.  Those who drink according to etiquette begin politely but invariably end up disorderly.  In their excesses, they are full of debauchery.  It's the same with all affairs.  They may begin with consideration, but invariably end up in prevarication.  Their inception may be simple, but as they approach their conclusion they become enormously complex.

 

"Words are like the wind and the waves, deeds verify or invalidate them.  Wind and waves are easily stirred up, verification and invalidation easily end perilously.  Therefore, rage often results from no other reason than clever words and intemperate phrases.  When an animal is threatened with death, it cries out involuntarily.  Gasping wildly for breath, it gives vent to all the viciousness it can muster.  When people are pressed too far, they will inevitably respond with evil intentions, not even knowing why they do so.  If even they themselves do not know why they do so, who knows how it will all end?  Therefore, in the Legal Counsels it is said, 'Do not deviate from your orders.  Do not force a settlement.  Immoderation is provocative overstatement.'  To deviate from one's orders or to force a settlement endangers one's undertaking.  An excellent settlement takes time; an unsatisfactory settlement, once made, is irrevocable.  One cannot be too careful!

 

"Just ride along with things as you let your mind wander.  Entrust yourself to inevitability and thereby nourish what is central.  That's the ultimate course.  What have you to do with the response of Ch'i?  Nothing is better than to fulfill your destiny, but that's the hardest of all."

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

"Just ride along with things as you let your mind wander.  Entrust yourself to inevitability and thereby nourish what is central.  That's the ultimate course.  What have you to do with the response of Ch'i?  Nothing is better than to fulfill your destiny, but that's the hardest of all."

 

So basically its do your duty come what may? thats  disappointingly trivial a bit.

 

 

so that my kitchen boys never feel as though they have to cool themselves off.

 

LoL

Edited November 29, 2016 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

So basically its do your duty come what may? thats  disappointingly trivial a bit.

 

Remember, it was Confucius who was saying this.

[Taoist Texts]

Remember, it was Confucius who was saying this.

Yes, i am just wondering if if was him or Mair). So u think thats the message - damn the torpedoes?

 

The best thing you can do is to be prepared to sacrifice your life; and this is the most difficult thing to do.'

/Legg/

Edited November 29, 2016 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

Yes, i am just wondering if if was him or Mair). So u think thats the message - damn the torpedoes?

 

The best thing you can do is to be prepared to sacrifice your life; and this is the most difficult thing to do.'

/Legg/

 

I think Chuang Tzu would say that we should not conduct in activities that would disrupt our natural life span potential. 

 

Confucius would say that we should sacrifice our life in service to our emperor.  Chuang Tzu would say, leave me alone so I can drag my tail in the mud.

 

I don't believe Chuang Tzu believed in destiny.  He believed in cause and effect too much for that.

 

(Please keep in mind that I had never read Mair's translation before getting involved in this study so each posting I make is potentially a new perspective for me.)

[dawei]

Remember, it was Confucius who was saying this.

 

But there is something profound in juxtaposing destiny and duty... 

[Marblehead]

But there is something profound in juxtaposing destiny and duty... 

I can't fairly discuss this because in my mind destiny requires a planner, an overseer, a supreme ultimate thinking power.  I'm an Atheist.  For me these don't exist.

 

Duty is defined by others for you.  What about me?  Don't I get to decide what my duties are to others?  I'm an Anarchist.  Others don't have the right to define my duties.

[Taoist Texts]

The coda of this passage is variously understood as

 

"Just ride along with things as you let your mind wander.  Entrust yourself to inevitability and thereby nourish what is central.  That's the ultimate course.  What have you to do with the response of Ch'i?  Nothing is better than to fulfill your destiny, but that's the hardest of all."

 

"let your mind find its enjoyment in the circumstances of your position; nourish the central course which you pursue, by a reference to your unavoidable obligations. This is the highest object for you to pursue; what else can you do to fulfill the charge (of your father and ruler). The best thing you can do is to be prepared to sacrifice your life; and this is the most difficult thing to do."

 

With either sacrificing life or fulfilling life, as seemingly apt recommendations from a teacher to student. But thats not what Confucius says.

 

His logic is as follows: son, in the course of your mission you can be cunning, you can make educated guesses and such but in the end its gonna be what its gonna be. The best you can do is to roll with the punches and enhance your calm. But if so then why go on a mission (何作为报也?) at all? Is not it better to hand back your mandate (莫若为致命?) now? But , i understand for an ambitious young man it is a hard thing to do. (sighs)

 

Mair and Legge could be excused for mixing-up the two multi-meaning technical phrases, this is admittedly a hard passage to translate without ctext.

 

 

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

I have had difficulty finding a way to speak my understandings to this section.  Confucius is speaking but Chuang Tzu is in there somewhere.

 

How about:  "One cannot push even a common man, how much less a head of state!  This makes me very anxious."  This is Chuang Tzu.  He speaks to this concept numerous times.

 

The next three sentences by Sir High are Chuang Tzu as well.  Then Sir High speaks to his anxieties.

 

Confucius' response is mixed with both Confucian and Chuangian concepts.  I have already stated my objection to "destiny and duty". 

 

In battle, if you put yourself in the front and are incapable of dealing with the conditions you will die.