Why do you say "school"?

[awaken]

Someone asked me how to teach here.

 

I do not know.

 

But if you are interested in the Dan dao.

 

Let's try to find a better way to teach and learn.

 

I am sorry what I say is too honest.

 

I should consider the manners.

[Astral Monk]

Basically you are saying that you can not tell the difference between the two. But most people can, very easily.

 

No, most people cant. That's why most people are at risk of getting scammed. At least at the outset. How can a person, a beginner, know the difference between something that is authentic and something that is totally fake? At the starting line they all looking like potential winners. It is only time and experience that enables us to see or get a sense of how well things fall out.

 

Again, going with the trades allegory, there are lots of guys out there scamming the shit out of people, and avg Joe, who isnt knowledgable in the trade, falls victim because the guys seem to get things done. And Joe gets gassed up by his equally ignorant neighbor who swears by the scammer. Only when a problem later arises and Joe gets a second opinion from, this time, an authentic tradesman, he will discover how shoddy the original work was and marvel at how such a guy could get work when it is clear, to the authentic tradesman, that the guy had little or no knowledge of his craft, save the ability to put a nice coat of paint on the problem and bugger off with the money as quick as possible.

 

Unless youre already in the know, how can you know?

 

The world of qigong is infinitely more complex and ridiculous.

 

When I said its not helpful to say some schools are real or fake, I mean that in the ciritique of schools in general, that there is no guarantee of legitimacy or the knowledge or skills therein, the idea of judging the authenticity of schools takes us back to how are we supposed to judge the authenticity of schools, which means how are we supposed to judge the veracity of the things they claim to teach? What is the standard then? If a school preserves skills and knowledge for a domain of discourse, by what standard are we able to discern its authenticity? Shall we accept the cry from the wilderness of the singleton who says THEY got the 'right' answers while the domain of discourse the school preserved was wrong from the start? And then how do we evaluate the authenticity of that cry from the wilderness? We cant take them at their word.

 

I guess it comes down to results. If a school teaches economics, we would expect them to produce economists, not sociologists or baseball players.

 

But in the case of neidan, because the domain of discourse is partly closed, because the results are not discussed openly, we cant even use that standard to evaluate different schools (from the outside). Then we have sects arguing over the correct use of texts that are open to the public. Again, if youre not in the know, how are you supposed to know? Arguing the meaning of Chinese terms is exhausting.

 

It is because schools have preserved the teachings that gave life to those texts, or that inspired those texts to be written in the first place, that we dont have to be hamstrung by texts alone or wait for a super-genius to reinvent the internal dan from their own intuition and a casual reading of the classics.

 

A school is just a bigger version, a more extended version, of teacher-to-student transmission, or 1-1, heart to heart lineage. If we accept this, if we accept that there are teachers who have learned from teachers who learned from teachers...etc...who preserved, adapted, and tested methods over time to get repeatable results, we should accept schools as being a more robust structure for this transmission.

 

For me the nature and value of schools is not in question. The only question is what standard can avg ppl use to judge the legitimacy? It may even be that this is impossible--that such judgment cannot be made until one has some already well-developed idea about the nature of the domain.

 

8)

[awaken]

I use app line.

 

My line id is 0931130232.

 

If you want to call me, you need to know my English may not be good enough to understand what you say.

[Taoist Texts]

No, most people cant.

 Joe, who isnt knowledgable in the trade, falls victim because the guys seem to get things done. And Joe gets gassed up by his equally ignorant neighbor   

Leaving neidan and qigong aside for a moment, you posit that most people are dupes who will jump at a chance to buy the Brooklyn Bridge. May be on a different planet there are.

 

As to this world, Joe and his neighbor came to be homeowners by a dint of being astute , hard-working professionals who will see anyone who wants to separate them from their hard-earned money a mile away. 

 

On the other hand a fool and his money are soon parted, also fools don't have any money to start with. By definition, fools constitute a tiny minority of the human race. The scammers pray on that tiny minority, not on the most people.

 

As to how to tell a fake school from the real deal, this is educational:

 

[awaken]

I must say thank you to the friends who support me here.

 

I know that some schools are very rich and have big systems everywhere, I am just a person for nothing.

 

All I have is the truth.

 

I proved the way is right in 2010.

 

And I found the road is very difficult to reach.

 

There are many difficult things to overcome.

 

So I thought I should help people to go the right way.

 

Chinese said 道dao and de德.

 

I should not only practice dao but no de.

 

That is why I went to qq groups in China and here.

 

I do not know what will happen in the future.

 

I just follow the inner voice.

 

I am not hurry.

 

I will wait for your coming.

 

What I want to do is to help to to open the emptiness and have the right views or signs in the Dan dao classics.

 

Then you will know you are on the right way.

 

No doubt.

[exorcist_1699]

There are many ways to reach Tao or Enlightenment ; different ways may give people different subjective feelings, yours is only one of them , so don't say that yours is definitely the right one although capability of reading original Zen or Taoist writings undoubtedly gives you  an  edge over others ,yet it conversely requires you  to behave more cautiously .

Edited December 7, 2016 by exorcist_1699

[awaken]

My way is not my way.

 

This way comes from many ancient sages.

 

They showed us the right way.

 

So I will introduced the classic of Chinese.

 

Not every Chinese classics was translated to English.

 

Even some classics were translated, they are not easy to be understood.

 

If you are not interested in what I said.

 

Please do not reply me.

 

I do not want to waste time to the kind of people.

 

Please do not waste your time to me, too.

[awaken]

The way to emptiness is only one.

 

It is true.

 

The people think that there are many ways to the goal do not know the core of cultivating.

 

What I told you is the core.

 

I mentioned about the three stages of chi.

 

The first stage of chi, post-heaven chi, has many ways to start it.

 

I can say that there are unlimited ways to start it.

 

But the third chi, pre-heaven real one chi, there is only one way to start it - the emptiness.

 

There is only one way to open emptiness.

 

If you open the emptiness, you will know that there is only one way.

 

In my class, I do not teach the chi of first stage, because there are unlimited methods to start it.

 

Many people already know how to start the chi of the first stage, post-heaven chi.

 

So there is no need for me to waste time to teach that.

 

I do not teach beginners.

 

My senior students teach beginners.

 

What I do is to make sure that they follow the right way, some rules about Ying Yang etc.

 

 

 

This is what I answered about one way or unlimited ways.

Edited December 7, 2016 by awaken

[awaken]

Some people who belong to some schools like to say that if you do not learn from their school, you will get 幻丹.

 

This means that if you do not pay money to their schools, you will not succeed and you will get a dan of illusion.

 

But they really do not know what huan-dan ( dan comes from illusion) is.

 

They do not explain what is huan-dan.

 

I had explained what is huan-dan in other thread here.

 

Maybe not every one saw it.

 

Huan-dan comes from 欲界(illusion world? I do not know how to translate 欲界）.

 

欲界，色界，無色界 is three stages of samadhi .

 

I do not know how to say samadhi in English, too.

 

So if you want to know what huan-dan is, you need to know what 三界 is.

 

You need to go into the Ying first.

 

After you go into Ying, the first stage you meet is 欲界.

 

There will be many illusions there.

 

One of The illusions looks like a big sun or a big light.

 

very bright

 

This bright sun or light will show with illusions.

 

The bright sun is so bright that some people think it is the golden dan.

 

But it is not.

 

It is huan-dan.

 

Before you open the emptiness, you will see huan-dan for many many times.

 

First you may feel excited because it is so bright.

 

But after you saw too many times, you will know it is just a illusion and you still have a long road to go.

 

 

一輪金光，本是我所有之靈物，取而歸之，為化形之妙藥。

135 且出定之初，萬物不可著，只候自身中一輪金光，現於空中，將法身近於光前，以法聚光，取於法身內，途即法身入於凡身，久久乳汁，則凡身立可化為炁矣。恐不得此金光者，則凡身不能化為炁，故有留身之說者，謂此也。又在德行之故耳。此即萬古不洩之天機，今則洩矣。

 

Let's see what hueminjii said about huan-dan.

 

It does not think huan-dan is an illusion.

 

It claims that it can be absorbed into our body.

 

It claims that it is a big secret.

 

 

The people who follow the hueminjii to practice do not know the noun - huan-dan is used to remind them.

 

The golden light in illusions can not be absorbed.

 

Nothing can be absorbed in the views.

 

They heard from other people and do not know what it is.

 

They just use it to the people who do not join them.

 

 

 

 

 

五二 歐冶親傳鑄劍方，鏌鋣金水配柔剛。煉成便會知人意，萬里誅妖一電光。

 

Let's see what wu gen pian said.

 

It knows the bright light is with illusions.

 

The bright light come out in the end of 欲界 illusion world.

 

When the bright light show, it means you are going to leave from illusions and ready to go another stage色界.

 

 

敲竹喚龜吞玉芝，鼓琴招鳳飲刀圭。近來透體金光現，不與凡人話此規。

 

This mentions about the bright golden light.

 

五四 藥逢氣類方成象，道在希夷合自然。一粒靈丹吞入腹，始知我命不由天。

五五 赫赤金丹一日成，古仙垂語實堪聽。若言九載三年者，總是推延欸日程。

 

This mentions about 黍米， a little star.

 

The little star should go into middle dan tian to dissolve the Ying chi.

 

So it says 吞入腹 swallow to belly.

 

 

The next mentions about the real golden dan.

Edited December 7, 2016 by awaken

[Cheshire Cat]

All this stuff about lights can be found in the book Taoist Yoga (Charles Luk)

[awaken]

All this stuff about lights can be found in the book Taoist Yoga (Charles Luk)

Can you tell me what did it say about huan-dan?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Luk

 

This the first time I heard about him.

 

Maybe I will spend some time to look for the book.

 

------

 

I googled him and found that he translated some important classics of Buddhism.

 

 

----

 

After another googled

 

性命法訣明指 is the Chinese name of the book " daoist yoga".

 

And this book was written by 趙壁塵，千峰老人。

 

I have not read jaou's book yet.

 

To read a Chinese book is easier for me than a English book.

 

Give me some days to read it.

 

 

-----

 

After another googled I have found the English and Chinese version of the book.

 

 

------

 

I have read the Chinese version.

 

Flying snow, full moon, is the same with me.

 

But after them, something is different.

 

心不能動，速用真意，眼要子、卯、午、酉一轉，照定魔光一吸，收入色身內。其魔光化為陽光，久久煉之，陰魔之光化為陽神之光，助我胎足，再煉面壁還虛等功，此出胎正氣向空口訣

 

This part is different.

 

I did not do anything and just let the yang Shen show up.

 

The book did not describe what the yang Shen looks like.

 

So I can not sure what he said is right or wrong.

 

He said that after the yang Shen show up, we need to use our 真意 to receive yang Shen.

 

I have never done that before, so I can not sure if it is right or not.

 

 

I should cultivate to make sure this.

 

After I make sure, I will write it down.

 

But the state is really very hard to get there.

 

Anyway, just do it.

 

 

Thank you for telling me about the book.

 

Some people talked about the book in china.

 

But they just misunderstand the book.

 

So I do not have desire to see the book.

 

Now I read the book.

 

Before yang Shen is right.

 

But after, I can not sure.

 

I need to cultivate to get the real experience.

 

I do not know how long I will spend to sure this part.

 

 

 

What I read from other classics have difference way.

 

They do not do anything to receive yang Shen.

 

And the yang Shen will grow more and more yang shens.

 

 

So which is right?

 

I do not know.

 

Let yang Shen grow by itself ?

 

Or receive yang Shen to our body?

 

Need to try it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

　　還虛面壁之功，古雲總得九年。我功末至此，我師傳授口訣，今傳於後。我師了空禪師曰： " 還虛一著，是將從前十魔百煉，不動心。通天達地之陽神，分形散影，顯化於世，救急消災，與人治病。複將陽神收入祖竅，歸於性海之內，勿另其出色身。複將色身閉住煉化，渾入法身之中，此是先天之中先天性命。複將陽神退藏法身祖竅之內，要將色身煉得不有不無，非色非空，無內無外，不出不入，無始無終。如龍養珠，蟄藏而不動。如雞抱卵，安眠而不起，沉之又沉 ; 靜之又靜，從前所修所證，百千萬億化身，乘龍跨鎢，步口玩月，千變萬化，一齊收入祖竅之內，依滅盡定，而寂滅之。此是矗龍之法，必須大死一場。謹謹護持，毋容陽神可由。益陽神百煉而百靈，千煉而愈精。煉煉不已，則陽神之總光內神火隱而收之愈密，斯放之愈普。隱之無可隱，斯顯之無可顯。將陽神收藏祖竅之內，定極滅盡之餘，久而久之，將陽神真火養足，而一爐神光，凡幾騰騰。滿鼎真火，炎炎烈烈。自內竅透出外竅，由大竅貫大小竅。毛內無外，無大無小，透頂徹底，光光相燭，竅竅相映。而天地萬物 : 莫不照耀於神光之中矣。煉至三年、九載、百年、千年、千劫、萬動，直待四大崩散，虛空粉碎，無形無跡。此乃是帶肉大覺金仙，萬劫不壞金剛之體。 . 法訣至此，永無秘訣也。 "

 

And I found this.

 

Joau's teacher talked about yang Shen.

 

It is really amazing.

 

It is beyond my experience.

 

But I know what he said is right.

 

 

 

 

 

42 清光緒二十一年三月十三日，余在金山寺辛遇了然、了空禪師，致心苦求，傳我至道，決破周身關竅。三日夜，授余全訣。拜別之際，師曰：『子年三十五歲，無有後裔，留下子孫，再用大功不遲。不可將精氣受傷，精氣神足，如用大功，立可成也。』乃知此是性命雙修金丹大道，並非絕嗣斷後之道，須知太上、釋迎皆有子耳。

 

Jaou just stayed with his teacher for three days.

 

 

 

 

The first thing I though that is what Liao Kung master said is right.

 

But what Jaou said is very strange.

 

But the difference is in the stage of yang Shen.

 

I am still a new one in yang Shen stage.

 

So I can not to tell what Jaou said is right or not.

 

Hope I can prove it one day.

Edited December 7, 2016 by awaken

[Astral Monk]

No, more like the plain fact that most ppl are not experts so it is hard to make accurate objective judgments and they need to rely on others for guidance. And how do they know such ppl are not fakes? They cant, at first.

 

Leaving neidan and qigong aside for a moment, you posit that most people are dupes who will jump at a chance to buy the Brooklyn Bridge. May be on a different planet there are.

 

As to this world, Joe and his neighbor came to be homeowners by a dint of being astute , hard-working professionals who will see anyone who wants to separate them from their hard-earned money a mile away.

 

On the other hand a fool and his money are soon parted, also fools don't have any money to start with. By definition, fools constitute a tiny minority of the human race. The scammers pray on that tiny minority, not on the most people.

]

Dont be naive. The news feeds abound with stories of astute hard working professionals who get scammed because they dont know any better. Its not so clear cut, esp at the outset. It takes most ppl a good deal of time to see fraud. Its not a scarlet letter.

 

8)

[Astral Monk]

All I have is the truth.

 

I proved the way is right in 2010.

 

 

I'm curious--how did you prove the way is right in 2010 and to whom did you prove this?

 

8)

[SeekerOfHealing]

I mean we can all agree I think the key is emptiness here to tap into pre-heaven and transform jing mai, further purification of emptiness change body into light itself. It's not that hard but it's time consuming to keep rice cooking.

[gatito]

Someone told me that I can not tell open dao is a liar.

 

Ok

 

I will not say it again.

 

But I hope that you have the same rules to him.

 

I will focus on my teaching.

 

Can anyone tell me how to prevent the disturb from opendao ?

 

My suggestion to you is that you should apply for a PPF and confine yourself posting therein until you qualify for Owner's Permissions (at which point you could return to this thread and clean it up, if you so wish).

[Brian]

My suggestion to you is that you should apply for a PPF and confine yourself posting therein until you qualify for Owner's Permissions (at which point you could return to this thread and clean it up, if you so wish).

I think that's an excellent suggestion.

 

EDIT: In fact, this thread could be moved to that PPF and cleaned up there.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Brian

[shazlor]

I think that's an excellent suggestion.

EDIT: In fact, this thread could be moved to that PPF and cleaned up there.

Hold ya 'orseys!!! lemme get home to a pc and copy&paste the gold nuggets of wisdom /from both parties/ for my cheat sheets first, lol.

 

*susssunniesninjafaceemoticon*

[opendao]

My suggestion to you is that you should apply for a PPF and confine yourself posting therein until you qualify for Owner's Permissions (at which point you could return to this thread and clean it up, if you so wish).

 

covering crime is another crime.

 

I saved the thread to local files. All the false accusations presented here, all the absurd theories and mistakes will stay with Awaken (or those who hide behind this name) the entire life and will be publicly available, here or in other places. People have to know the real face of self-proclaimed gurus.

 

If somebody doesn't want to hear facts, then don't write what you cannot prove. Even on textual level it was shown clearly that Awaken's claims about Wu-Liu Pai teaching have no any support. More was written by Walker here http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42478-learning-from-immortals/?p=723353. 

 

Other lies about Wu-Liu Pai, how it teaches qigong only or rob people, also have no factual support. 

[opendao]

All this stuff about lights can be found in the book Taoist Yoga (Charles Luk)

 

right. It's described in numerous books everybody can find on chinese markets. But there are a lot of difficulties in this method. Also women practice is different. But Awaken thinks she is special and proud she found the true way. What a joke really.

[opendao]

There are many ways to reach Tao or Enlightenment ; different ways may give people different subjective feelings, yours is only one of them , so don't say that yours is definitely the right one although capability of reading original Zen or Taoist writings undoubtedly gives you  an  edge over others ,yet it conversely requires you  to behave more cautiously .

 

I'd say more strict: if someone's way has no proves in obtaining Immortality, and this result was not repeated by many people you know, then there is no possibility to claim that such way is right.

 

But if there is no Xian last hundred years, then it's possible to say that the school is false to obtain alchemy results. 

 

By separating truth from false this way, we won't fall into a "trap of authenticity": when some schools have a good lineage, texts with results descriptions, everything looks fine, but no results for thousands years. It means that such school is dead, something important was lost.

[opendao]

Claiming that Wu-Liu as "fake" is over-stating. On the  whole, WU-Liu's problems is no big ones, of course, you have to differentiate it from its so-called modern followers.

 

I've heard rumours here about fake Wu-Liu Pai teachers, but seen only one in the chinese internet. So the problem is not big, considering real size of the school.

 

However I'd like to beware all sincere seekers about such scammers, and remind that it's in your interests to check every single fact multiple times.

[Kar3n]

it is hard to tell what is authentic or not in this thread because of all of the back and for about liars, scammers, charlatans, etc.

 

Be the teacher and voice of your own truth.

 

If you guys put half the time into teaching that you have put into belittling one another, there would be a couple of great threads to compare and contrast.

 

Most of the teachings and "truths" are just lost in all of the drama...

[opendao]

No. it's make no sense and you fall into his manipulation. Whatever school or not you can use this kind of logic to manipulate people into fake school itself. There is no rule to that. School or no school it does not give more legitimacy to anything. Buddha or other masters didn't create schools, zen masters didn't create schools - only those who wanted to make business (religion) and manipulate people with other masters achievements to get their way to comfortable life. This is logic you can adapt against your argument which means generally the same. So whatever you put this way or that way, school or no school - there is no guarantee on legitimacy no matter how many stories and how much quasi-logic you want to put it in to convince yourself into believing that your school is right. School have sense if it's initiatory school or mystery school when people do not have personal agenda like Xiao Yao Pai as it's from divine mandate which human greed can not penetrate into immortal realm. Regular schools of people are full of vice, greed and other things as religions. Of course there are genuine people as for the rule of yin and yang, when 90% are yin false people there are 10% or 1% that will make thru cultivation. Just do not try convince yourself into something using broken logic like this please. Just see things the way they are - that the best way to be and see things. Human schools are human and have the same flaws as creators which is nothing wrong if you understand it and aware of it. (unless they are straight snake oil sellers)

 

"Heaven mandate" is exactly a sign, that such school is just a religion. It's a blind belief nobody can prove or disapprove.

 

Real Tradition doesn't require you to believe in anything. Alchemy schools are not religious by their nature. All facts about lineages can be proven. It creates trust.

 

What's funny in this thread, is that Awaken and her friends try to say that schools are no needed, but right away she is starting a new awaken-pai. Obviously schools are needed. Face the facts ))

Edited December 7, 2016 by opendao

[SeekerOfHealing]

Heaven mandate is not religious thing, you getting into extremes. It's clear experience like those you have in neidan when you getting in contact with Xians into spiritual form. Those things which we speaks we are speaking (or I'm speaking) straight from measure experiences which anybody can repeat probably the same like you but from different context, the problem is that you think your or the experiences you know are only right but how can you know without practicing in others schools? Did you practice XYP? Did you practice Longmen Pai? Zhen Dao? and others? I do not think, there are many schools which works efficiently. There are even buddhist ming methods in japan but you school things that buddhist lost their ming (which is mostly right). Did you practice or did research or other lineages? did you practices in others streams before?

[Taoist Texts]

Dont be naive. The news feeds abound with stories  

Ah, the news. Obviously you live in a world of your own. Good luck with that.