Why do you say "school"?

[awaken]

So many mistakes in wu Liu pai's classics.

 

I don't want to waste my time to chase the wrong way.

 

If you want, that is your choice.

 

But not me.

[opendao]

129 見此景至即當移念出定。三界者，下丹田，中宮，頂門謂之三界也。

 

Too many mistakes....

 

my English is not perfect too, but once more: the method of Wu-Liu Pai is not in these words or other books.

 

The ancient alchemy methods has been never disclosed in books. We know it because we practice it. Other people have nothing to compare so they repeat same mistakes and simple exercises from 10 yuan books available everywhere. If it would be so simple, we could see all immortals around us. But nothing even close.

[Daeluin]

Why do you say "school" ...

 

As this thread shows, it is our attachment to right and wrong that creates conflict. This school does this. No that is not this school, this school only like this. Attachment to names leads away.

 

And yet the importance of a teacher is considered vital. Why?

 

In Liu Yiming's xiuzhen houbian tl by Fabrizio Pregadio in Cultivating the Tao:

 

Alas!

 

The roundness of the Moon lies in the oral instructions; when the time of zi comes, the wonder lies in the transmission through the Heart.

 

How can the wonder of the fire phases be something easy to know?

 

People nowadays do not know that the fire phases are extremely fine and subtle. They cling to the ancient saying, "With one word or half a sentence you comprehend the Mystery," and they just say that the fire phases cannot be spoken and cannot be transmitted. They do not know what is the wonder of that one word or half-sentence. "The words murmured in a whisper" by a true master reveal a fragment of the secret of the celestial mechanism; they do not transmit the fire phases in words.

 

In every craft and every art of this world there are rules and procedures. This is even more true in the great undertaking of xing and ming: how could you awaken it by means of "one word or half a sentence"? How could students not reflect on this over and over again?

 

 

It is awakened within, by doing the work of inner transformation. This is one's own responsibility. And yet traveling with a blindfold and no map, how is one to know where the phases of transformation begin and end? A slight mistake is like stepping off a cliff. The words murmured in a whisper by one who knows the way appear just when they are needed. This is how the principle is revealed - the words themselves matter less than the timing of what they reveal.

 

The dogma of schools help to preserve the superficial mappings, yet the transmission of the timing is what is important about having a teacher. Teachers come in many flavours and schools, but it is not their words that cause one to awaken.

[opendao]

So many mistakes in wu Liu pai's classics.

 

I don't want to waste my time to chase the wrong way.

 

If you want, that is your choice.

 

But not me.

 

yes, that's my choice based on the real teaching not fake qq groups. So don't waste you precious time, you have a lot to learn in the time left.

[opendao]

 

The dogma of schools help to preserve the superficial mappings, yet the transmission of the timing is what is important about having a teacher. Teachers come in many flavours and schools, but it is not their words that cause one to awaken.

 

right, it's their no-words. Dao is a teaching without words, if you remember. How you can learn without a teacher? How you can find a teacher without a school and books? How you can overcome various practical challenges without same-minded people? School is important, but to really understand it you need to be in, not outside.

[awaken]

1 悟真云：赫赫金丹一日成。又古經云：還丹在一時，溫養須十月。噫！還丹之道，豈易知哉？蓋還丹有小還丹，有大還丹。小還丹名曰金丹，大還丹名曰七返九還金液大丹。所謂小還丹者，後天中返先天，以鉛制汞，以水濟火，以金公配奼女，以黑虎駕赤龍，以烏龜吞朱雀，以他家制我家，還其我家之故物，複其我家之本真，乃還元之道，所以名曰還丹，又曰金丹。經云：金來歸性初，乃得稱還丹者，即此小還丹也。所言小者，僅還其元，複其當年之原本，如虧者而又足，去者而複還。此丹雖還，尚未經火煆煉，一時不謹，猶有得而複失之患，故曰小還。於此再加向上工夫，重安爐，複立鼎，將此還丹溫之養之，以至虛極靜篤，貞下起元，複運陰符陽火，漸抽漸添，自無而有，自微而著，十月胎全，瓜熟蒂落，脫出法身，是曰大丹。至於別造乾坤，再安爐鼎，子生孫兮孫又枝，為十極大羅真人，不在大小還丹之數也。世人不知大小還丹之分別，而直曰金丹之道，妄想得師一言半語，便欲成功，何其愚甚？其他旁門外道，俱不足論。即就其所得之真者論之，或有知煉己而不知採藥，或有知採藥而不知安爐立鼎，或知安爐立鼎而不知調和之法，又有僅知小還丹而不知大還丹，半途而廢者。噫！始則有為，終則無為，苟知始而不知終，欲成大道，難矣。學者須原始要終，必無一毫之疑惑而後可。

 

修真後辨 is the same book with 修真辨難

 

Wu Liu pai only know the small dan, but don't know the big dan.

 

Wu Liu pai didn't start only by wu Liu.

 

The wrong school last for many years, more than one thousand years.

 

They misunderstand the dan dao because they didn't reach the place.

 

But they claim they are already there.

 

This kind of misleading exit for thousands of years.

 

So that is why 老子 said dao can dao, but not normal dao.道可道，非常道

Edited December 4, 2016 by awaken

[awaken]

right, it's their no-words. Dao is a teaching without words, if you remember. How you can learn without a teacher? How you can find a teacher without a school and books? How you can overcome various practical challenges without same-minded people? School is important, but to really understand it you need to be in, not outside.

What wu Liu said in classics is all wrong.

 

I can not find any reasons to follow the wrong classic school.

 

I prefer to follow the right way, like 悟真篇，修真辨難，參同契，黃庭經 etc.

 

There are so many good and right dan classics to follow.

 

There is no reason to follow the wrong way.

 

 

I know that wu Liu pai make a system to make big money.

 

So that is why I criticize them.

 

They make money and teach the wrong way.

 

It is not a good 修道人should do.

Edited December 4, 2016 by awaken

[SeekerOfHealing]

Great vast of knowledge awaken. thank you for sharing your gems. You are not 孫不二 in disguise?

[opendao]

I'm a bit confused here. I remember you saying numerous times how important it is to study ancient neidan texts. And now this notion above - somewhat mixed messages for me.

 

Good question. Yes, texts are important and I continue to insist on that. But they are important for what? As I told - to find a Teacher. But people are trying to learn from books, practise by books. This way it's impossible to understand the teaching of the ancient alchemy schools, because simply the practical method is not there.

 

But Huimingjing is a great text for those who is looking for a true Teacher and Teaching. Is it more clear now?

[Daeluin]

right, it's their no-words. Dao is a teaching without words, if you remember. How you can learn without a teacher? How you can find a teacher without a school and books? How you can overcome various practical challenges without same-minded people? School is important, but to really understand it you need to be in, not outside.

 

Because of how the dao works, being on the inside may also consist of being anywhere at the right time and place to hear what one needs. This is related to the operation of de.

 

Harm may be found in mercy, and mercy may be found in harm, yet without quality of de application of either lacks appropriate timing.

[opendao]

What wu Liu said in classics is all wrong.

 

I can not find any reasons to follow the wrong classic school.

 

I prefer to follow the right way, like 悟真篇，修真辨難，參同契，黃庭經 etc.

 

There are so many good and right dan classics to follow.

 

There is no reason to follow the wrong way.

 

 

I know that wu Liu pai make a system to make big money.

 

So that is why I criticize them.

 

They make money and teach the wrong way.

 

It is not a good 修道人should do.

 

You criticise books and rumours. It's a waste of time and it makes you telling lies.

You learn by books. It's a waste of time and it makes you telling lies.

 

Real successors of Zhan Boduang School we met, they do not teach what you're writing here, but they teach methods similar to the southern method of Wu-Liu Pai, with some differences, but the idea is the same.

[opendao]

Because of how the dao works, being on the inside may also consist of being anywhere at the right time and place to hear what one needs. This is related to the operation of de.

 

Harm may be found in mercy, and mercy may be found in harm, yet without quality of de application of either lacks appropriate timing.

 

before you attain Dao or De or whatever else result, you need a teacher and a school. It's cool to speak how Dao operates, but it's a very long and challenging way to attain the Way.

[Daeluin]

before you attain Dao or De or whatever else result, you need a teacher and a school. It's cool to speak how Dao operates, but it's a very long and challenging way to attain the Way.

 

What I'm speaking of is at the root of the teachers and schools you speak of.

 

What is long and challenging is no obstacle. Not being ahead of anything else under heaven is one of lao zi's three treasures. It is not a path of exclusivity, but one of unity. The operation in this is both specific and broad. The true treasure of heaven is found within what many abandon. This is deep and profound.

 

Mercy can be born in harm, harm can come from mercy - they may both lead to unity or away from unity. Presumption to know which is right for another also presumes to abandon that which, when nurtured, allows that treasure to shine through in ever more diverse and mysterious manifestation. Myriad manifestations and de becomes rich upon the planet once again and the dao ever more within reach.

[effilang]

no, it's just you who cannot read and know nothing about Neidan close door teaching. 

The method of Wu-Liu Pai is not in the books.

 

Hehe, it's a little funny though you have to admit, OpenDao.

 

At first when people asked you about evidence, you said, go and read the texts; the evidence is spoken about in the texts. Now that people have started to point out the mistakes in the text, you conveniently back pedal and say it's not in the texts anymore. 

[Taoist Texts]

no, it's just you who cannot read and know nothing about Neidan close door teaching. 

The method of Wu-Liu Pai is not in the books.

 

Here is what Liu Huayang, the founder of Wuliu says:

 

今以浅率之言，将佛宝流传，和盘托出，俾世之学者，睹此慧命经，即若亲口相传，只须励志精勤，不必他山求助，则佛果可以立证

 Now, by means of simple, straightforward language, I will pass on the Treasure of the Buddha, offering it as if on a tray to enable followers in the world . As you examine the Huiming Jing it is indeed the same as if I were telling it to you with my own mouth. It is only necessary to rouse your will and dedicate all your energy—you need not go to some other mountain to seek further help—and you will be able to establish and manifest the Buddha Fruit.../Nicholson/

 

 

So who is lying here out of these two? The Wuliu salesman or the Wuliu founder?

[opendao]

Hehe, it's a little funny though you have to admit, OpenDao.

 

At first when people asked you about evidence, you said, go and read the texts; the evidence is spoken about in the texts. Now that people have started to point out the mistakes in the text, you conveniently back pedal and say it's not in the texts anymore. 

 

that's your childish fantasies and inability to read carefully. Texts are still texts, and they are still important. Also it's obvious that there are no mistakes in WLP texts, while Awaken is totally fooled. You cannot see it, because your background is Mantek Chia and qigong, so your opinion is really irrelevant.

 

 

Here is what Liu Huayang, the founder of Wuliu says:

 

今以浅率之言，将佛宝流传，和盘托出，俾世之学者，睹此慧命经，即若亲口相传，只须励志精勤，不必他山求助，则佛果可以立证

 Now, by means of simple, straightforward language, I will pass on the Treasure of the Buddha, offering it as if on a tray to enable followers in the world . As you examine the Huiming Jing it is indeed the same as if I were telling it to you with my own mouth. It is only necessary to rouse your will and dedicate all your energy—you need not go to some other mountain to seek further help—and you will be able to establish and manifest the Buddha Fruit.../Nicholson/

 

 

So who is lying here out of these two? The Wuliu salesman or the Wuliu founder?

 

 

The method described in Huimingjing is a correct one, might lead to results as described, but it's not the ancient southern method taught to WLP students, as Awaken mistakenly claimed.

 

But it's too hard logic for your exhausted brain, I understand.

[awaken]

I am very glad to see so many people here admit that wu Liu pai is wrong.

 

I know that wu Liu pai make a lot of money by opendao's way.

 

They deny their mistakes because of money.

 

I won't let myself become a customer of wu Liu pai.

 

I only practice the right way.

 

This is my life.

 

I have the right to refuse the liars.

 

I am very sick to see this kind of people who would lie for money.

 

I would like to tell you all the truth of practicing, the secrets of dan dao.

 

If the secrets are not secrets any more, wu Liu pai has no money to make.

 

Everyone knows the real way, the real dao.

 

Everyone can practice by themselves.

 

People don't need to waste time and money to learn everywhere.

 

People don't need to judge who is a real teacher or who is a liar.

 

If people can know what is the right way, they can save a lot of time from chasing the fake teacher.

 

And people can save more time to practice the dan dao.

 

That is what I wish.

 

I hope that some people are interested in the real dan dao.

 

I will tell you the secrets of dan dao day by day, and hope some people would practice it with me.

Edited December 5, 2016 by awaken

[awaken]

難經：呼出心與肺，吸入腎與肝，呼吸之間，脾受穀味也，其脈在中。（can anyone translate?)

 

Breath out by heart and lung.

 

Breath in by kidney and liver.

 

Between breathing in and out, spleen accept the chi of food.

 

And Mai is inside.

 

(I am not sure if the translation right or wrong)

 

So breath in till kidney is normal.

 

If you can breath in till kidney, it is called "short breathing"短氣.

 

 

But in hweminjin 慧命經

 

凡聖之變化，總是這個所謂一物一太極，有此太極，知覺言語，無此太極，眼垂口閉，醫謂之真火，實無形無影，而藏之臍後腎前，稍下空懸一穴。古謂之淨土家鄉，極樂國，妙有真空。有此真火蒸薰有形，無此真火息斷形壞。

 

It says the place of breath in is the emptiness.

 

It is completely wrong.

 

And it says this breathe is real fire.

 

It is completely wrong, too.

 

The fire of breathe is called 凡火 normal fire, not real fire.

 

Let's see what is real fire in the real dan dao classics.

 

修行人以無形之真火為用，而外面呼吸有形之火非謂全然不用，不過如鐵匠之風扇吹噓於外，周遭包裹，以衛中間神息而已。吾恐諸子未明用火之道，故將呼吸有形之凡火，與先天無形之真火，相提並論，以免妄採妄煉。

 

Hunguanjii said the fire of breathe is normal fire, not real fire.

 

http://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&res=702552

Edited December 5, 2016 by awaken

[Cheshire Cat]

Some years ago it was cute to read comments of people pretending to know everything about meditation.

 

But today, I start to think that those people are precisely the ones who end up in leading lots of people ...

[exorcist_1699]

Most of the readers here can't read Chinese , especially classical Chinese,  better be more patient .

 

Besides , to be fair , you have to differentiate  people who claim to be followers of the WuLliu school from what really are expressed by  the Wu and Liu masters in their writings. I think, the significance of WuLiu 's writings is  their emphasize , much serious than others', on the importance of retaining  of jing for  attaining everlasting life , which I wonder whether any  lady here  can fully understand its meaning to men ..  for example , Taomeow  complained that we guys talk too much about this  subject on this forum ..

Edited December 6, 2016 by exorcist_1699

[Taoist Texts]

The method described in Huimingjing is a correct one, might lead to results as described,  

 

 

 

See? How hard was that?

 

These people used to constantly, adamantly and falsely claim that there is absolutely, positively no practical method in the books.

 

Today  they flipped like a flop.

 

Its a Xmas miracle ladies and gents!

 

[awaken]

Let's forget wu Liu.

 

I don't like to read the fake dan dao classics.

 

Too many mistakes in the books.

 

Exorcist

I don' t know why I can not understand your English.

 

Maybe you can use easy English.

[awaken]

The fake dam dao classics hweminjin think our Shen go up from our head top.

 

It is not true.

 

 

This is what the real dan dao Classic said. 悟真篇 wu gen pian by Chang Bo duan 張伯端

 

不識玄中顛倒顛，爭知火裏好栽蓮。牽將白虎歸家養，産個明珠是月圓。謾守藥爐看火候，但安神息任天然。群陰剝盡丹成熟，跳出樊籠壽萬年。

 

 

The key point is 群陰剝盡丹成熟，跳出樊籠壽萬年。

 

When All Ying is gone , the dan is ripe.

 

And it will jump out the cage and live for 10 thousand years.

 

 

If I translate wrong, please correct fir me. Thanks.

 

Can you see the different?

 

I have practiced for 27 years.

 

I know what is the difference.

 

What the fake hweminjin said is the open of head top, that is not 出神out Shen, that is just head open.

 

I opened the head top for many years.

 

When you start to open head top, you go into the illusion state at the same time.

 

You will see some illusions when you do meditation.

 

I know many people call the illusions as 出神out Shen.

 

After I really go into the emptiness, I saw a big hole, mandala , snow flying.

 

And then I saw a immoral and golden dan.

 

If the energy of emptiness is not enough, it is a golden dan, very bright, totally different from a small star 黍米.

 

A small star （黍米，真種，小還丹，small dan) appear in chi state.

 

But big dan appear in emptiness.

 

It is totally different state.

 

No ego, no thoughts, no......very hard to discribe to those who never been there.

 

I hope some people here can practice with me.

 

I want to show what is real emptiness.

 

 

 

 

Come back to our point.

 

So the immoral does not go up from head top.

 

It just show up in the big hole 玄關一竅

 

If the energy is not enough, it would shrink to a bright moon, not very big , but very bright.

 

 

 

 

Before you reach emptiness, you need to know what is Ying.

 

And bring your yang into your Ying.

 

If you do not do this, your Ying is always there.

 

And you will misunderstand dan dao just like wu Liu pie.

 

Wu Liu pie misunderstand Ying and yang.

 

That is why they can not practice the same result with the real dan classics.

 

They just practice yang.

 

When their chi is try to go into Ying, they use 武火big fire to make themselves awake.

 

This way make them miss the chance to go into Ying.

 

Without Ying, it is impossible to go into the emptiness.

 

All your practicing must come and back between yang and Ying.

 

Without Ying yang, what you do just Qi Qing, not dan dao.

[awaken]

If your body is good, you can start your mediation from breath.

 

But if your body is not good.

 

Your breath is short.

 

You should not start from breath.

 

Because you can not breathe into your kidney.

 

The place in the kidney is called 命門 the door of life.

 

It means the place to practicing 命功 life gung.

 

In dan dao, 性命雙修 （practicing 命life (Min) and 性nature(Sin) both ) is very important.

 

You should find a moving gung to make your body healthier.

 

The only way that you start your meditation from is your deep breath.

 

The breath must be very relax enough to make the chi more.

 

With the deep breath, you would have the feeling of chi.

 

 

If you do mediation when your breath is short, your chi will block.

Edited December 5, 2016 by awaken

[SeekerOfHealing]

 

If your body is good, you can start your mediation from breath.

 

But if your body is not good.

 

Your breath is short.

 

You should not start from breath.

 

Because you can not breathe into your kidney.

 

The place in the kidney is called 命門 the door of life.

 

It means the place to practicing 命功 life gung.

 

In dan dao, 性命雙修 （practicing 命life (Min) and 性nature(Sin) both ) is very important.

 

You should find a moving gung to make your body healthier.

 

The only way that you start your meditation from is your deep breath.

 

The breath must be very relax enough to make the chi more.

 

With the deep breath, you would have the feeling of chi.

 

 

 

What you say it's true, but you need method for it.