Mair 4:3

[Marblehead]

Yen Ho, {{A worthy scholar of the state of Lu in the employ of the state of Wey.}} about to become the tutor of the eldest son of Duke Ling of the state of Wey, inquired of Ch'ŭ Poyii, {{A wise minister of the state of Wey.}} "Here is a man of a naturally cruel disposition.  If I permit him to act without constraint, he will bring harm to our state.  If I insist that he act with constraint, he will bring harm to my own person.  He is just intelligent enough to recognize the faults of others, but not to recognize his own.  This being the case, what am I to do?"

 

"An excellent question!" said Ch'ŭ Poyu.  "Be restrained and cautious.  Set yourself aright.  Your bearing should be cordial, your attitude should be agreeable.  Still, trouble may result even from these two approaches.  While cordial, do not be overly intimate; while agreeable, do not be overly effusive.  If your bearing is too intimate, everything will be ruined - a complete catastrophe.  If you are too agreeable, you will be suspected of wanting reputation and fame - a life-threatening curse.  If he acts like a baby, then you act like a baby along with him.  If he acts unconventionally, then you act unconventionally along with him.  If he acts without restraint, then you act without restraint along with him.  Thus can you awaken him and lead him on to blamelessness.

 

"Don't you know about the praying mantis?  Angrily waving its arms, it blocks the path of an onrushing chariot, not realizing that the task is far beyond it.  This is because it puts a high premium on its own ability.  Be restrained and cautious.  If you put a high premium on always bragging about yourself and thereby offend him, you will be in jeopardy.

 

`And don't you know about the tiger keeper?  He dares not give a live animal to his charges, for fear of stirring up their fury when they kill it, nor dares he give them a whole animal, for fear of stirring up their fury when they tear it apart.  By gauging the times when the tigers are hungry or full, he can fathom their fury.  Although the tigers are of a different species from man, they try to please their keeper because he goes along with them, whereas they kill those who go against them.

 

"He who loves horses catches their dung in baskets and receives their urine in giant clam shells.  But if a mosquito or a snipefly {{An insect in south China that stings horses and cows so fiercely and in such great numbers that the animals sometimes collapse from the pain and loss of blood.}} should alight upon one of his horses and he slaps it at the wrong moment, the horse will chomp through its bit, break his head, and smash his chest.  His intentions are the best, yet he may perish through his love.  Can one afford not to be cautious?"

[Stosh]

Too late for being cautious though, Yen Ho already set himself up as an authority , that he could effectively tutor someone who didn't want tutoring. If the son of the duke isn't stupid,  he may recognize Yen ho as a bullshit artist. Some folks aren't keen on that either, rather than, coming to respect someone who speaks with sincerity. Why is the guy cruel ? we dont know, maybe its because he doesn't respect the people he is cruel to , in retaliation for their falsity! 

While being a phony does work at times , its a gamble here. When one's best pitch is a fastball, sometimes a curve is a badly chosen pitch. Caution is advisable if they guy is capable of cutting off your head, but if you're going to tutor the guy , I don't think you can do it following his lead all the time, and condoning his behavior,  all the more , the worse it gets. You may get to live through it, but you're not teaching anything. 

I'm thinking better advice is to get in good with the Duke himself. 

Who wrote this passage? 

Edited December 5, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Well, according to those who know, this is directly from Chuang Tzu. 

 

I see this more at the concepts of cause/effect and action/reaction. 

 

Of course, moderation is in there too.

[Stosh]

Well, according to those who know, this is directly from Chuang Tzu. 

 

I see this more at the concepts of cause/effect and action/reaction. 

 

Of course, moderation is in there too.

Ok , so do you agree that those who know, are saying that the classic non-conformist Cz was promoting this conformity? 

Wouldnt Cz be smart enough to not take the job in the first place? preferring to present himself as a friendly but useless idiot.

and also , not be even be trying to effect change on the dukes son?

IMO The plan isnt going to work, if the dukes son is actually 'naturally cruel'. Though moderation and causation are indeed mentioned. 

[Marblehead]

I don't know Stosh.  I think Chuang Tzu would say "Follow your heart." and then add the bits about using caution..

 

True, Chuang Tzu would have turned down such a position.  But what honest Anarchist would say "Do as I do."?

 

Agree, trying to change the duke's son's nature would be very dangerous.  Great caution will be needed.

[Stosh]

Caution is a good idea , and perhaps Cz was giving someone else's advice because it was too late to follow his own. I think Taoist text's Legalist buddies stuck it in there though. theres too many hitches in it. 

Lets look at the 'follow your heart' thing, well If the dukes son follows His, and he is cruel , then one Yen Ho would be trying to override the dukes son's nature.

If Yen Ho's heart is to interfere , because he thinks he knows best, then he isnt following Cz's basic premise of butting out re:.. wu wei.  " If I insist that he act with constraint, he will bring harm to my own person" 

Following wu wei and not doing actions to assert ones views on the world , would leave no place for the rhino to poke. 

 

 

 Creel, for example, decided that this greatest Taoist paradox was probably unintentional, due to the juxtaposition of two different aspects in early Taoism: an original "contemplative aspect" and a subsequent "purposive aspect." The first denotes "an attitude of genuine non-action, motivated by a lack of desire to participate in the struggle of human affairs," while the second is "a technique by means of which one who practices it may gain enhanced control over human affairs." [18] The former is merely passive (hence "nonaction"), the latter is an attempt to act in and reform the world ("action"), and, as Creel emphasizes, these are not only different but "logically and essentially they are incompatible." [19] Creel admits that this interpretation is not to be found within the Taoist texts themselves, and recognizes that this puts him in the awkward position of claiming that the Chuang-tzu (more contemplative) is earlier than the compilation of the Lao-tzu (more purposive). 

 

So Im thinking creel would also not see this portion as typical of the contemplative approach , but rather of a purposive one , and therefore not fitting well with the body of  the Cz. ..

Why he thinks he needs to assign temporal primacy to one vs the other view?, I dont know and expect that at any given moment in time some people were seeing the teachings in either one of these two veins so thats a moot consideration as far as Im concerned. 

 

IMO Daoist literature suggests exemplified by the sage, that even if the reasoning is taken to the extreme the logic is still valid, in this piece, the logic is peppered with qualifiers, dont be too nice, dont be too harsh, go ahead and mess with affairs of state but watch your ass... and so forth.

 I know you put a lot of weight on moderation , and I recognize that,  thats just a difference Im not getting into right now though. 

Edited December 6, 2016 by Stosh

[dawei]

Yen Ho is a traveling philosopher and from Lu, where Confucius basically grew up.  He seems to show up in another section of ZZ as one who 'attained Dao'... wonder if that is considered to have been the result of this section we read now which seems a primer on harmony, not just caution.

 

I prefer other translations to this section as they talk about harmonizing the inner and outer and it makes a lot more sense to me than Mair's.   

 

Giles - outwardly adapt, inwardly hold your standard (sounds like LZ, holding the center).

Burton - in actions, follow him; in mind, harmonize with him.  Talks of not being pulled in nor drawn out.

 

This might be a little bit of a stretch but to me it is a valid depiction of chinese mannerism; What you see outwardly is not what you can know inwardly [about them or their thinking].   In a way, the emphasis on harmonizing and caution could be an acknowledgement that chinese way is "two approaches" but the key is to harmonize them.

[Marblehead]

Excellent perspectives guys.

 

And true, my use of moderation should be linked to the concept of harmony.

 

And this advice links well with the (Henricks) TTC, Chapter 15, Lines 6 - 12:

 

6.  Hesitant was he!  Like someone crossing a river in winter.
7.  Undecided was he!  As though in fear of his neighbors on all four sides.
8.  Solemn and polite was he!  Like a guest.
9.  Scattered and dispersed was he!  Like an ice as it melts
10.  Genuine, unformed was he! Like uncarved wood.
11.  Merged, undifferentiated was he!  Like muddy water.
12.  Broad and expansive was he!  Like a valley.

 

 

[Stosh]

I don't know Stosh.  I think Chuang Tzu would say "Follow your heart." and then add the bits about using caution..

 

True, Chuang Tzu would have turned down such a position.  But what honest Anarchist would say "Do as I do."?

 

Agree, trying to change the duke's son's nature would be very dangerous.  Great caution will be needed.

Re-reading, I see I passed over a direct question, sorry, I did the sloppy thing and just sort of took it as rhetorical. Yeah it may be a bit ironic , to suggest someone follow their example of being an anarchist. But I think that in writing his work , he overrode that irony because he wanted to express that which he felt was well intended. 

And so , agreeing with your agreement statement, as you phrase it, I picture that this is not really advice to rulers , its about handling an underdog position. If his own words were being presented , to a student , who really has the final say on whether his advice should be heeded or dismissed , I imagine this too is arguing from an underdog position. Press too hard and the idea will be rejected and you're out on your arse. Likewise scaling up from individual internal discussion, abruptly reaching for the skies might be ill advised... or on a personal self help level ,' this sucks I give up' may be the effect. Caution moderation low hanging fruit and all that stuff is present.

But seriously , on any of these levels , is not recognition of value,  important to establishing the instructional value of the relationship. If one just doesn't go against the grain of their usual habit and never sees success from doing it , doesnt see the validity of ideas one didn't have because they stayed in a nice little comfort zone where they weren't prompted or tempted ,, are they not going to immediately revert to the old habit as soon as they are presented with the possibility of a live kill? 

I've read plenty , seen the logic of much of it, but when put into the arena , I go right back to the warpath. The system has to work even when tested , otherwise it doesn't actually do anything. 

For me,# 6, 7, 8, 9, dont seem to fit with 10. I dont want to collect horse piss in a clam shell. 

Edited December 6, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

So, yeah, taking a position where you could easily lose your head would require great caution.

 

Tutoring someone who already is known to have a cruel disposition will be quite a challenge.  And yes, a good teacher/student relationship will need be had.

 

I forget what the horse urine was used for but I have heard that on documentaries as well, mostly about the Mongolians.

[Stosh]

Its just for spraying in peoples faces so they stop trying to collect it.

[Stosh]

I had to google this up but , the manure has obvious soil nurturing uses , the urine can be made into ammonia for cleaning clothes or you can compost and boil it down to yield saltpeter for gunpowder , uric acid stays in solution in an alkaline situation which would increase the yield of your efforts using shell so as not to have crystal formation there rather than in the compost pile.

While Horse urine doesn't really have a large component of uric acid , bird poop does and I could see the tradition of using the shell which is alkaline ,  to be a holdover. Thus , the value of the wastes , both yin and yang in quality , is what a horse can yield in return for its care , in terms of useful product. 

I figure I don't have to explain the rest. 

[Marblehead]

Yep.  Sounds familiar.

[Stosh]

I hope that doesnt mean I was too data-centric. I cant really help that.. for long.

[Marblehead]

I hope that doesnt mean I was too data-centric. I cant really help that.. for long.

 

Just means I had nothing to add to what you said. 

[Stosh]

Moving on then, I enjoy the nuance of these passages. Being ready to catch all the crap, but not too quick to swat a problem, escaped me yesterday. But I was wondering if the Mongols are referred to specfically in the term 'those who love horses'..

Edited December 9, 2016 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

The Mongols were considered barbarians.  They are why the Great Wall was built.  I'm sure "those who love horses" would have been the Mongols.  But the Chinese quickly adopted the horse once they saw its usefulness.

[Stosh]

Moving on then, I enjoy the nuance of these passages. Being ready to catch all the crap, but not too quick to swat a problem, escaped me yesterday. But I was wondering if the Mongols are referred to specfically in the term 'those who love horses'..

just checking something

[dawei]

The Mongols were considered barbarians.  They are why the Great Wall was built.  I'm sure "those who love horses" would have been the Mongols.  But the Chinese quickly adopted the horse once they saw its usefulness.

 

Anyone outside of the Yellow River basin was a barbarian.  In fact, the original chinese are all barbarians... they converged to the Yellow River... but from where ?!?!?!     The western parts for the most part.  The Xia, Shang, Zhou and Qin are ALL FROM THE WESTERN REGIONS...  The Han Dynasty is from the north as one part of three lands broken up earlier....  But the Han peasant rebel who became ruler was from Chu... an ultimate barbarian... 

 

There is something very subtly missed and obvious once the story is told, about the Mongols... and which the chinese could never adopt... The Mongols on horseback effected a tremendous fear to be reckoned.  The very sound of their approach, the very sound of their war cry... the Mongols used psychological warfare at a time nobody understood it, except for those being attacked.   The Mongols were largely successful because the enemy put their head in the dirt and begged forgiveness upon just hearing the pounding of all the hoofs.

 

this is why the chinese are the only surviving ancient culture... 

[rene]

this is why the chinese are the only surviving ancient culture...

There might be one or two ancient cultures on the North American continent who would disagree with that, heh.

 

(kindly s'cuse m'off-topic blather. (-: )

[dawei]

There might be one or two ancient cultures on the North American continent who would disagree with that, heh.

 

(kindly s'cuse m'off-topic blather. (-: )

 

Do you number 1.4 billion today

[rene]

Do you number 1.4 billion today

Counting All our Relations? Yes, many times that