Attaining Full Lotus

[Papayapple]

After couple months of good, general stretching, I figured out, well it's kind of easier to move around and throw some kicks in the air, but that Padmasana probly ain't gonna happen so easily, and since one day I hope to dig real deep into meditation, it would be nice to start a routine  that is going to prepare my hips and all for that.

So in short: who can recommend a simple, day to day thing that is not too hard to perform and that kind of forgives mistakes?

Not looking for something dramatic, just safe and effective in the long term.

For example, will this do the trick?

 

I should add I'm currently doing first few of these every morning.

Thanks for help!

 

[Miffymog]

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/39857-loneman-pai%E2%84%A2-full-lotus-updated-2nd-video-instruction/?hl=%2Bfull+%2Blotus

 

I remember reading this thread a while ago and I really liked it - go through it and it should help answer your question

[Rakiel]

pigeon pose forward bend. Has taken me much further much faster

[Everything]

pigeon pose forward bend. Has taken me much further much faster

And there was light. So as God said it shall be, so shall it be. And God said "No human shall ever achieve the proud Stance of a Duck."

Quak quak.

[Mudfoot]

No?

 

Nor the proud stance of sitting like a(mandarin) duck?

 

One or two taijiquan practitioners might disagree. Except during open season.

 

But then you can always change to the painful stance of the qilin ;-)

[C T]

[gendao]

I should add I'm currently doing first few of these every morning.

Interesting, I do about half of these stretches myself daily...

But there are SOOOO many muscles involved in just your pelvis and legs - and getting them all loose enough to allow full lotus can probably easily take a decade for many.  Because there's usually at least a separate muscle on each "cardinal" side (anterior, posterior, medial, lateral) of a limb, between each set of joints.  Not to mention both superficial and deeper layers...  So, given that it could easily take months just to fully release a single tensed muscle, do the math on how long it may then take to release them all!  YES, for anyone who is actually trying for this goal, you will eventually start thinking in terms of YEARS, rather than MONTHS!

Edited December 10, 2016 by gendao

[shortstuff]

I am the worst person mobility wise in my kundalini yoga class by far. It would be embarresing if one didn't keep his ego in check.

 

I can't even sit with one of my legs straight out, nor can I sit on my ankles, I can sit cross legged though but not lotus or even half lotus.

 

But I am getting slightly more flexible each week. Slightly.

[Papayapple]

Thanks to everybody for input!

That seems good, except the knees seem to be under great stress. And I have some pains in my knees sometimes, I don't want to strain them even more. So I'll save that one for future.

[Papayapple]

I am the worst person mobility wise in my kundalini yoga class by far. It would be embarresing if one didn't keep his ego in check.

 

I can't even sit with one of my legs straight out, nor can I sit on my ankles, I can sit cross legged though but not lotus or even half lotus.

 

But I am getting slightly more flexible each week. Slightly.

 

Yeah I was just like that too. Half the age of anybody in the class, and half flexible. I was never that much flexible as a kid either. But now I think I'm starting to be. Jibengong works!

Interesting, I do about half of these stretches myself daily...

 

Yes I understand, It'll take years, I'm not in a hurry, I just need the right sequence.

pigeon pose forward bend. Has taken me much further much faster

Such as shown here ? http://www.yogajournal.com/article/beginners/pigeon-pose/

The question is how to know when to stop, and is there any point in immediately repeating the stretch?

Also, Is slight "bouncing" during a stretch helpful?

What should I feel actually? Relief, discomfort(?), or slight pain? Some people say that if the muscle is very tight, you probably will feel pain and you should just persevere.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Papayapple

[Rakiel]

Such as shown here ? http://www.yogajournal.com/article/beginners/pigeon-pose/

The question is how to know when to stop, and is there any point in immediately repeating the stretch?

Also, Is slight "bouncing" during a stretch helpful?

What should I feel actually? Relief, discomfort(?), or slight pain? Some people say that if the muscle is very tight, you probably will feel pain and you should just persevere.

Yes that is the stretch. I always do this stretch as my main prep stretch prior to getting in to half then full lotus. After a while, you feel less 'stretch' in the hips. So then you can deepen it, maneuver/'bounce' the hips, bring the lower leg (of the folded leg) toward the head. After doing the stretch for a month, I was surprised to see how quickly I could get the knee to the floor solely from the hip mobility. Prior to that, it took at least 10 minutes to get the knees to the floor. So it must be working. And when you do it right, I feel zero pressure in the knee, only the hips.

[Papayapple]

The first version of this stretch can be done standing too(on one leg), and it's easier because you can lean with your upper body forward, which is easier than pulling. It's funny, I didn't realize it, but my coach actually gave me this stretch a few weeks ago.

[TheDustAutumn]

What I did was twice a day after a thorough warm up I did a butterfly pose with weights on my knees and held it for 5-6 min x 3 times. Once my hips opened enough so that my legs lay flat on the ground I added something under my feet so that I can support even more rotation in the hips. After about 6 month of this, I got from barely being able to sit in half lotus to being able to sit in full lotus without any pain for about 90-120 min, daily.

Edited December 12, 2016 by TheDustAutumn

[Papayapple]

What I did was twice a day after a thorough warm up I did a butterfly pose with weights on my knees and held it for 5-6 min x 3 times. Once my hips opened enough so that my legs lay flat on the ground I added something under my feet so that I can support even more rotation in the hips. After about 6 month of this, I got from barely being able to sit in half lotus to being able to sit in full lotus without any pain for about 90-120 min, daily.

Wonderful method, thank you for sharing.

What weight did you use? Which do you think is optimal? Very slight discomfort, or discomfort that is challenging for your nerves?

 

I've been doing a butterfly stretch laying on my belly for the last two days, and it's incredibly effective.

[TheDustAutumn]

Wonderful method, thank you for sharing.

What weight did you use? Which do you think is optimal? Very slight discomfort, or discomfort that is challenging for your nerves?

 

I've been doing a butterfly stretch laying on my belly for the last two days, and it's incredibly effective.

 I used 40 kg disks on each leg but be mindful that I have a quite extensive background in martial arts(I had hip mobility. just  on the opposite direction as in I was able to do both front and side splits). What I recommend is to use as much weight as you want as long as you don't damage yourself (so be sure you know your limits). If you're not doing any damage to yourself, you set your own threshold as far as discomfort goes(some are more sensible to pain when compared to others). You must also consider that you have to leave enough time for the hips to heal between sessions so you must also know how long it normally takes for your body to heal(if the hips don't heal sufficiently between sessions, the inflammation slowly builds up and you might find after a few weeks that your hips are totally stiffen and at that point you have to wait it out or you risk permanent damage).

[Orion]

I don't understand why people are so obsessed with hyperflexibility. It causes joint instability down the road. Is there something wrong with only sitting in half lotus, or crossed legs?

 

I have treated so many people over the years who have yoga injuries. You don't need to be hyperflexible to have good qi flow.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Orion

[Papayapple]

I don't understand why people are so obsessed with hyperflexibility. It causes joint instability down the road. Is there something wrong with only sitting in half lotus, or crossed legs?

 

I have treated so many people over the years who have yoga injuries. You don't need to be hyperflexible to have good qi flow.

I just find sitting cross legged uncomfortable. Sitting in a chair is even worse for concentration, and also I hope that being more flexible and sitting in full lotus might help with balance and proper back alignment(right now I just CAN'T find the right posture and quickly get middle, or lower back pain while sitting, my knees are lower than hips).

 

I found this thread which is pretty convincing http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/12514-what-is-so-special-about-full-lotus/

 

Love Andrei's reply ;D

[Wizz]

I agree with Orion on this one even tho I would like to be hyperflexible myself I just got nerve inflammation from trying to get it. If you want your posture to change then you should connect your perineum with your navel point at the navel point and then maintain the energy trough your body from this point, this will help you straighten - connecting your upper energy with your lower energy and rising it. Otherwise you will always struggle as if it is a physical thing to keep straight, at least thats how it went with me. I would recommend to put a pillow and sit in half lotus and switch left/right legs as much and then sit normally in a chair (which is also great, just like walking or standing can be) and again combine that with full lotus. Also practice the comfortable/dominant leg more then the other. After you can do full lotus you can bring your knees closer to each other and put your feet higher on your legs, this will stretch your legs enough by itself so you dont have to do 2-3 separate stretching exercises to be able to work on full lotus. Thats just my opinion based on my experience, I would say its better to work steady for months and years then doing too much stuff especially if you are sensitive.

[Orion]

I just find sitting cross legged uncomfortable. Sitting in a chair is even worse for concentration, and also I hope that being more flexible and sitting in full lotus might help with balance and proper back alignment(right now I just CAN'T find the right posture and quickly get middle, or lower back pain while sitting, my knees are lower than hips).

 

I found this thread which is pretty convincing http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/12514-what-is-so-special-about-full-lotus/

 

Love Andrei's reply ;D

 

Those are some interesting responses, but a lot of them are esoteric.

 

I think the most practical explanation is that ancient people didn't sit in chairs as much, they tended to squat. When your pelvis is naturally that open, the lotus pose would be a lot more comfortable than sitting cross-legged. As a kid I always sat in half lotus, all the way to adult hood. Then when I joined spiritual communities for the first time they thought it was some amazing sign that I am meant to be doing spiritual work, lolol...

 

For me personally I find lotus more comfortable because my tailbone touches the floor and I can really straighten my spine, but my legs still go numb after a while. Regular crossed legs never worked for me because I am tall and bony with not much butt fat, and when you sit cross legged you're basically sitting painfully on your seat bones.

 

IMO it's about personal preference. It's not that the Lotus is "more spiritual".

[beingnature]

For me it just happened naturally after years of standing, sitting and lying practice(standing with warmups after the lam kam chuen method).I also think stretching CAN be harmful.And i think flexibility has a lot do with the amount of letting go you have in your practice.Take time in the beginning i would never have thought of sitting in full lotus

Edited December 15, 2016 by NATURE BEEING

[gendao]

I don't understand why people are so obsessed with hyperflexibility. It causes joint instability down the road. Is there something wrong with only sitting in half lotus, or crossed legs?

 

I have treated so many people over the years who have yoga injuries. You don't need to be hyperflexible to have good qi flow.

I think the obsession is with releasing all muscular/emotional/energetic tension/blockages/armoring in your muscles and tendons (but not ligaments) - which is what reduce flexibility.  And full lotus is probably a prerequisite to spiritual work because it requires the clearing of all of that first - particularly in your root/sexual chakras and related meridians.

 

You need a strong root to grow...

 

Otherwise, you end up with a lot of New Agey spiritual escape artists looking to bypass all their deep primal/personal issues with basic survival needs, home, family, sex, etc...  But who won't get very far because if that is all locked up, then there's no free fuel to get off the launching pad!

Edited December 17, 2016 by gendao

[Papayapple]

I think the obsession is with releasing all muscular/emotional/energetic tension/blockages/armoring in your muscles and tendons (but not ligaments) - which is what reduce flexibility.  And full lotus is probably a prerequisite to spiritual work because it requires the clearing of all of that first - particularly in your root/sexual chakras and related meridians.

 

You need a strong root to grow...

 

Otherwise, you end up with a lot of New Agey spiritual escape artists looking to bypass all their deep primal/personal issues with basic survival needs, home, family, sex, etc...  But who won't get very far because if that is all locked up, then there's no free fuel to get off the launching pad!

Of course... It's funny but I was just to write about it.

 

I realized recently that most of the stretches talked here or there are simply forbidden for me right now. I'm talking about these

and even simple seated forward wide angle leg stretch. The reason is basically this: my hamstrings, calves and buttocks may be too tight and there's too much strain on the tendons/muscles on the inner side of the knee.

 

At least that's what the book "Stretching: Everything You Never Wanted To know" says. (I think it's free btw, try googling it).

It also says you should stretch in a specific order, which totally makes the difference now that I've tried it:

1. back

2. sides (external obliques)

3. neck

4. forearms and wrists

5. triceps

6. chest

7. buttocks

8. groin (adductors)

9. thighs (quadriceps and abductors)

10. calves

11. shins

12. hamstrings

13. instep

stretch your back first

 stretch y our sides after stretching y our back

 stretch y our buttocks before stretching your groin or y our hamstrings

 stretch y our calves before stretching your hamstrings

 stretch y our shins before stretching your quadriceps (if you do shin stretches)

 stretch y our arms before stretching your chest

 

So what I do now is I isolate each muscle, and don't do both limbs at once, so I could control the stretch better.

The ironic thing is that eventually I went back to what my gym coach told me to do, that dude really knew what I needed!

Some of these:

The thigh stretch I do with the knee bent almost at 45 angle, it doesn't take much to feel it...

Butterfly is off limits for now, because of knee pain.

The book  "Stretching: Everything You Never Wanted To know" also has some great basic info about types of stretching(active, passive, isometric, PNF...) and lots of reference books.

:

stretc h y our bac k (upp er and lo w er) rst

stretc h y our sides after stretc hing y our bac k

stretc h y our butto c ks b efore stretc hing y our groin or y our hamstrings

stretc h y our calv es b efore stretc hing y our hamstrings

stretc h y our shins b efore stretc hing y our quadriceps (if y ou do shin stretc hes)

stretc h y our arms b efore stretc hing y our c hest

:

stretc h y our bac k (upp er and lo w er) rst

stretc h y our sides after stretc hing y our bac k

stretc h y our butto c ks b efore stretc hing y our groin or y our hamstrings

stretc h y our calv es b efore stretc hing y our hamstrings

stretc h y our shins b efore stretc hing y our quadriceps (if y ou do shin stretc hes)

stretc h y our arms b efore stretc hing y our c hest

[Orion]

Of course... It's funny but I was just to write about it.

 

I realized recently that most of the stretches talked here or there are simply forbidden for me right now. I'm talking about these

and even simple seated forward wide angle leg stretch. The reason is basically this: my hamstrings, calves and buttocks may be too tight and there's too much strain on the tendons/muscles on the inner side of the knee.

 

At least that's what the book "Stretching: Everything You Never Wanted To know" says. (I think it's free btw, try googling it).

It also says you should stretch in a specific order, which totally makes the difference now that I've tried it:

1. back

2. sides (external obliques)

3. neck

4. forearms and wrists

5. triceps

6. chest

7. buttocks

8. groin (adductors)

9. thighs (quadriceps and abductors)

10. calves

11. shins

12. hamstrings

13. instep

stretch your back first

 stretch y our sides after stretching y our back

 stretch y our buttocks before stretching your groin or y our hamstrings

 stretch y our calves before stretching your hamstrings

 stretch y our shins before stretching your quadriceps (if you do shin stretches)

 stretch y our arms before stretching your chest

 

So what I do now is I isolate each muscle, and don't do both limbs at once, so I could control the stretch better.

The ironic thing is that eventually I went back to what my gym coach told me to do, that dude really knew what I needed!

Some of these:

The thigh stretch I do with the knee bent almost at 45 angle, it doesn't take much to feel it...

Butterfly is off limits for now, because of knee pain.

The book  "Stretching: Everything You Never Wanted To know" also has some great basic info about types of stretching(active, passive, isometric, PNF...) and lots of reference books.

:

stretc h y our bac k (upp er and lo w er) rst

stretc h y our sides after stretc hing y our bac k

stretc h y our butto c ks b efore stretc hing y our groin or y our hamstrings

stretc h y our calv es b efore stretc hing y our hamstrings

stretc h y our shins b efore stretc hing y our quadriceps (if y ou do shin stretc hes)

stretc h y our arms b efore stretc hing y our c hest

:

stretc h y our bac k (upp er and lo w er) rst

stretc h y our sides after stretc hing y our bac k

stretc h y our butto c ks b efore stretc hing y our groin or y our hamstrings

stretc h y our calv es b efore stretc hing y our hamstrings

stretc h y our shins b efore stretc hing y our quadriceps (if y ou do shin stretc hes)

stretc h y our arms b efore stretc hing y our c hest

 

I agree that the more flexible and open your pelvis is, the more the energy will flow in your body, but I do not associate this with grounding, necessarily. There are lots of people in the yoga community who are airy fairy, and they can assume all manner of perfect positions. Grounding is just as much about your psychospiritual disposition as it is your ability to draw awareness of your physicality into the Earth.

 

There are a lot of people who can do full lotus after years of disciplined stretching who are still totally in their heads about it. I guess what I'm saying is, lotus positions may offer an opportunity, but you still have to do the inner cultivation... and you can do that even with cross legs. Personally I don't do traditional meditations anymore because I can enter that consciousness even when I'm in motion, but when I used to meditate while sitting I did it in chairs, or crossed legs, or half lotus, or full lotus, or some variation.

Edited December 18, 2016 by Orion

[gendao]

I realized recently that most of the stretches talked here or there are simply forbidden for me right now. I'm talking about these

and even simple seated forward wide angle leg stretch. The reason is basically this: my hamstrings, calves and buttocks may be too tight and there's too much strain on the tendons/muscles on the inner side of the knee.

:

stretch your back (upper and lower) rst

stretch your sides after stretching your back

stretch your buttocks before stretching your groin or your hamstrings

stretch your calves before stretching your hamstrings

stretch your shins before stretching your quadriceps (if you do shin stretches)

stretch your arms before stretching your chest

:

stretch your back (upper and lower) rst

stretch your sides after stretching your back

stretch your buttocks before stretching your groin or your hamstrings

stretch your calves before stretching your hamstrings

stretch your shins before stretching your quadriceps (if you do shin stretches)

stretch your arms before stretching your chest

Note Damo's comments on his video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW0_U1O3ynQ

stretching sequence that we use within Lotus Nei Gong courses for beginners. These stretches are designed to counter many of the tensions which may occur in the early stages of practicing Daoist arts. Each of the tendon collaterals (and so meridians) are lengthened ensuring that the joints can open and the various energetic pathways lengthen.

This video shows our stretching sequence that we give to almost all of our students on our courses. In the video Roni is demonstrating the stretches to their maximum, the furthest they can go. Only those who are very flexible should go to this far into the movement. Those with less flexibility should go less deep into the stretch.

EVERYBODY should stretch regularly, it is good for your health. I am tired of Qigong practitioners saying that they don't have to stretch, that is why some of the stiffest people on the planet are practitioners of Qigong. If you relax and stand in a certain position for long enough you will result in contraction which will tighten the body and restrict the flow of energy through your system. The counter argument to this is that many Qigong MASTERS (not students) are soft and they do not stretch. This is usually because they were martial arts practitioners in their youth and so stretched extensively meaning that much of the joint opening work was done when they were younger.

I teach this sequence to everybody that I teach and all students can comfortably go into these shapes and lengthen their body effectively within a very short space of time regardless of their age. The reason for this is that they have been taught how to stretch correctly. Don't look at the size of the stretch Roni is doing, look at the way in which she is doing them and then ask yourself just how loose is your body really? Would you benefit from lengthening some of your lines of connective tissue? I am guessing that almost everybody would do.

Trust me, Roni has an incredible amount of Qi flow which is not hindered in any way by her stretching.

I agree that the more flexible and open your pelvis is, the more the energy will flow in your body, but I do not associate this with grounding, necessarily. There are lots of people in the yoga community who are airy fairy, and they can assume all manner of perfect positions. Grounding is just as much about your psychospiritual disposition as it is your ability to draw awareness of your physicality into the Earth.

 

There are a lot of people who can do full lotus after years of disciplined stretching who are still totally in their heads about it.

Are there...though?  I don't personally know anyone who can go into full lotus without using their hands, even including some yoga teachers...  I've only seen 2 people online here over MANY YEARS who can (Eddie Bravo & SonOfTheGods).

So, I wonder if you can really get into full lotus easily and healthily (properly without joint damage) - without having cleared out most of your core biomechanical and bioenergetic blockages first?

55

He who is in harmony with the Tao

is like a newborn child.

Its bones are soft, its muscles are weak,

but its grip is powerful.

 

76

Men are born soft and supple;

dead, they are stiff and hard.

Plants are born tender and pliant;

dead, they are brittle and dry.

 

Thus whoever is stiff and inflexible

is a disciple of death.

Whoever is soft and yielding

is a disciple of life.

 

The hard and stiff will be broken.

The soft and supple will prevail.

I mean, I've been able to simply get into full lotus for easily over a decade now, well before even stretching.  But, it was like pulling a compound bow back...  What I'm talking about is being able to go into it easily enough that you can meditate in full relaxation in it with naturally good posture and no strain.  Now, how many people (if any) do you know who can really do that?

Edited December 18, 2016 by gendao

[Papayapple]

So, I wonder if you can really get into full lotus easily and healthily (properly without joint damage) - without having cleared out most of your core biomechanical and bioenergetic blockages first?

 

Could you repost the photo you added in the post "full lotus only hurts when I get out..." ?

"Make sure you work on counter-rotating your legs back from your hip sockets. Because the counter-rotation here is the key to full-lotus. IOW, your toes should not be pointing forward, but pointing up or even backwards in this stretch."

I don't quite get what kind of stretch that might be..