Hypothetical scenario that makes you question God

[Goldleaf]

Hi there,

 

please imagine the following.

 

You have a health issue. You are also not sleeping well, reacting to something in the room. You try various methods and of course you try cleaning the room, using potplants, himalayan salt-lamp, etc. But still you do'nt sleep well and gradually your health declines to where you now wake feeling angry and have painful irregular bowel movements.

 

Similarly, you now feel like you are in the best possible position to maek great stride in the area of health and healing others. You are learning so much about diet, self-health, chi kuing, chinese medicine, quieting the mind, it enriches your daily life. But at the same time, there is this thing in the room that is affecting your health in a violent way {you are unable to sleep in another room and do not have the funds to move}.

 

You want to look into  alternatives: tents {too flimsy}, yurts {too expensive}, futons {too hard for your lean frame}.

 

So feeling cornered and overwhelmed, yet at the same time like you want to be a flower in full bloom, would you not start to question God?? I don't want to get into religion in any way, but I cannot help but wonder why now?? It makes feel like giving up, even though I will not ever give up, there's too much to live for. But some hope would really help right now I feel so alone with this thanks

Edited December 8, 2016 by Goldleaf

[thelerner]

Its winter, kind of a blah time for many people.  Little sun, cold out, stuck indoors.. many people are a few notches down. 

 

As I've gotten older, I don't ask why, or wish for miracles; instead I accept and ask 'How can I help?'.   I try to live using skillful means, looking for intelligent solutions and having faith that when misfortune occurs, things will get better.

 

As far as a physical room, you could try a divider, something like an oriental multi-panel divider.  That's what I'm using now.  A divider and a white noise generator can work wonders. 

 

Healthwise it can be a long journey til the body heals itself, or you find what you need.  But once found there is a happiness and thankfulness that others don't have.   Odds are you'll find the right solution.  Sometimes its not trying strange things, but getting back to basics, good food, good sleep.

 

I'm a lifelong insomniac, but lately I've started a 30 day 'gong' to watch the sunrise each day.  So I'm up early, a second gong/program is to complete a 'couch to 5K' training regimen, so I'm getting exercise.   And I'm trying to lay off electronics when it gets late.  These things have been helping.. a bit.  Forcing myself to get up early, and getting daily exercise. 

 

Somewhere there is lifestyle change or addition that'll solve your problem.  It may not be drastic but it'll take work and persistence.    Don't know what it is, but its out there.  You just have to find it and stick it out.  And when you come out the other end, you'll have some gifts of empathy and strength that others don't have.  

 

Good luck, tomorrow plan something that'll make you smile.  The movie Dr. Strange was pretty good. 

 

Michael

[Brian]

Hi there,

 

please imagine the following.

 

You have a health issue. You are also not sleeping well, reacting to something in the room. You try various methods and of course you try cleaning the room, using potplants, himalayan salt-lamp, etc. But still you do'nt sleep well and gradually your health declines to where you now wake feeling angry and have painful irregular bowel movements.

 

Similarly, you now feel like you are in the best possible position to maek great stride in the area of health and healing others. You are learning so much about diet, self-health, chi kuing, chinese medicine, quieting the mind, it enriches your daily life. But at the same time, there is this thing in the room that is affecting your health in a violent way {you are unable to sleep in another room and do not have the funds to move}.

 

You want to look into alternatives: tents {too flimsy}, yurts {too expensive}, futons {too hard for your lean frame}.

 

So feeling cornered and overwhelmed, yet at the same time like you want to be a flower in full bloom, would you not start to question God?? I don't want to get into religion in any way, but I cannot help but wonder why now?? It makes feel like giving up, even though I will not ever give up, there's too much to live for. But some hope would really help right now I feel so alone with this thanks

Doesn't sound hypothetical.

 

God is not your fix-it guy and you aren't alone. Fear not. Fear is the little death.

[Goldleaf]

Its winter, kind of a blah time for many people.  Little sun, cold out, stuck indoors.. many people are a few notches down. 

 

As I've gotten older, I don't ask why, or wish for miracles; instead I accept and ask 'How can I help?'.   I try to live using skillful means, looking for intelligent solutions and having faith that when misfortune occurs, things will get better.

 

As far as a physical room, you could try a divider, something like an oriental multi-panel divider.  That's what I'm using now.  A divider and a white noise generator can work wonders. 

 

Healthwise it can be a long journey til the body heals itself, or you find what you need.  But once found there is a happiness and thankfulness that others don't have.   Odds are you'll find the right solution.  Sometimes its not trying strange things, but getting back to basics, good food, good sleep.

 

I'm a lifelong insomniac, but lately I've started a 30 day 'gong' to watch the sunrise each day.  So I'm up early, a second gong/program is to complete a 'couch to 5K' training regimen, so I'm getting exercise.   And I'm trying to lay off electronics when it gets late.  These things have been helping.. a bit.  Forcing myself to get up early, and getting daily exercise. 

 

Somewhere there is lifestyle change or addition that'll solve your problem.  It may not be drastic but it'll take work and persistence.    Don't know what it is, but its out there.  You just have to find it and stick it out.  And when you come out the other end, you'll have some gifts of empathy and strength that others don't have.  

 

Good luck, tomorrow plan something that'll make you smile.  The movie Dr. Strange was pretty good. 

 

Michael

 

Great, thank you for sharing this Michael.

 

As I've gotten older, I don't ask why, or wish for miracles; instead I accept and ask 'How can I help?'.   I try to live using skillful means, looking for intelligent solutions and having faith that when misfortune occurs, things will get better.

 

 

I understand the wisdom in this, but my faith is slowly being eroded by continuous nights of not just unrestful sleep but waking worse than the night before.   Even torturers would relent this !!  So I hope you can at least understand why I feel like questioning God.  

 

Neither do I see God as mr-fix-it.  I have to put the work in.  But I have prayed from the depths of my soul many times to help my at least find a solution, and none has become clear.   And honestly the more I ask, the less understood I feel.  That is why I feel alone, feari or not.

[Everything]

Hi there,

 

please imagine the following.

 

You have a health issue. You are also not sleeping well, reacting to something in the room. You try various methods and of course you try cleaning the room, using potplants, himalayan salt-lamp, etc. But still you do'nt sleep well and gradually your health declines to where you now wake feeling angry and have painful irregular bowel movements.

 

Similarly, you now feel like you are in the best possible position to maek great stride in the area of health and healing others. You are learning so much about diet, self-health, chi kuing, chinese medicine, quieting the mind, it enriches your daily life. But at the same time, there is this thing in the room that is affecting your health in a violent way {you are unable to sleep in another room and do not have the funds to move}.

 

You want to look into alternatives: tents {too flimsy}, yurts {too expensive}, futons {too hard for your lean frame}.

 

So feeling cornered and overwhelmed, yet at the same time like you want to be a flower in full bloom, would you not start to question God?? I don't want to get into religion in any way, but I cannot help but wonder why now?? It makes feel like giving up, even though I will not ever give up, there's too much to live for. But some hope would really help right now I feel so alone with this thanks

You're trying way too hard.

Move away from pain is good, but most of all, stop caring so much. More effort will create a situation that requires more effort. You are voting for more effort by choosing more effort, so the God tells you "Yes my lord, here is more situations of effort for you to choose to partake in."

 

Thing is, effort is not good or bad, its up to you to decide what you like and don't like, and place your attention on what you do like.

 

Like everything in life, more effort will not create a situation that requires less effort. Unless PAIN PHYSICALLY MAKES YOU do something, in which case, its not effort, it's just a sudden shift in vibration that automatically and naturally balances itself out through the path of least resistance.

 

Regardless, you always have the ability to choose a path of less effort, that includes the path of choosing little to nothing. Like relaxing, I like to relax.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Everything

[Bud Jetsun]

Forgive completely yourself, the pain, the situation and all arising phenomena. Plant only diet, as building your body from the energy of suffering is only helpful if ones objective is to become suffering, add fruits until your frugivorous digestive system functions.

 

Appreciation of what is, however it happens to be is how one shows kindness to themselves. It is a choice to love cold and pain equally as a choice to enjoy laugher and warmth. Every being suffers it's choice in preference.

 

Creativity to interpret sensory phenomena is the singular limitation on a beings capacity to suffer or enjoy this one moment.

 

Changing the environment you sleep will not help if you take the same pointlessly struggling self with you to bed. Once you've forgiven all people and all things including insomnia, you will rest well, as you have laid down your burdens. Forgiveness is a priceless treasure available right now to every being that spoils oneself more than if you were living in a royal palace with a burdensome laiden heart.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[子泰]

One of the things I've come to realize is that my cultivation lets me to not give a crap about god, and to take responsibility for myself. Maybe these thoughts of yours are due to a lack of sleep? Either way I think if you take something like god out of the equation, it could help you gain a more stable peace of mind with your personal issues.

[SeekerOfHealing]

there is no god in abrahamic way of understanding as it make no sense. but there are spiritual beings which are eager to help if you have right key or password to do so.

[Seth Ananda]

Can an omnipotent God create bowl movements so bad he cant fix them?

[3bob]

If you have a Christian background then belief, hope and faith in Lord Jesus will bring His help if you follow through as best you can on that path...a problem may be in mixing up lots of various beliefs for then one can not concentrate and or focus so well if facing certain or serious problems beyond just interesting or comparative explorations of various paths which often goes on at this site, and which it definitely sounds like you are going through!

 

To question God is a very normal thing, to question everything is a very normal thing including all the reams of stuff put forth at this site!   Btw, and as you may already know there are universal spiritual laws that are not limited to or owned by any particular path, for instance if you reach your hand out for help with all your heart behind it - then a helping hand from the universe will answer in some way by said law and the goodness that it is. 

 

the Best to you

[Brian]

Great, thank you for sharing this Michael.

 

 

I understand the wisdom in this, but my faith is slowly being eroded by continuous nights of not just unrestful sleep but waking worse than the night before. Even torturers would relent this !! So I hope you can at least understand why I feel like questioning God.

 

Neither do I see God as mr-fix-it. I have to put the work in. But I have prayed from the depths of my soul many times to help my at least find a solution, and none has become clear. And honestly the more I ask, the less understood I feel. That is why I feel alone, feari or not.

You are asking the wrong question. Don't pray for help, pray for how to help. The path you are trying to find lies in service.

[doc benway]

Hi there,

 

please imagine the following.

 

You have a health issue. You are also not sleeping well, reacting to something in the room. You try various methods and of course you try cleaning the room, using potplants, himalayan salt-lamp, etc. But still you do'nt sleep well and gradually your health declines to where you now wake feeling angry and have painful irregular bowel movements.

 

Similarly, you now feel like you are in the best possible position to maek great stride in the area of health and healing others. You are learning so much about diet, self-health, chi kuing, chinese medicine, quieting the mind, it enriches your daily life. But at the same time, there is this thing in the room that is affecting your health in a violent way {you are unable to sleep in another room and do not have the funds to move}.

 

You want to look into  alternatives: tents {too flimsy}, yurts {too expensive}, futons {too hard for your lean frame}.

 

So feeling cornered and overwhelmed, yet at the same time like you want to be a flower in full bloom, would you not start to question God?? I don't want to get into religion in any way, but I cannot help but wonder why now?? It makes feel like giving up, even though I will not ever give up, there's too much to live for. But some hope would really help right now I feel so alone with this thanks

 

It seems like everything is so focused outside of yourself... the causes and conditions that are responsible for your problems, God...

 

Perhaps it would be of value to look deeper inside yourself?

 

It's very difficult to effectively help others if you are unable to first help yourself.

 

Good luck

[Jetsun]

Perhaps God is eroding your false ideas and conceptions about what it is through your suffering

[liminal_luke]

God is not your fix-it guy 

 

Ain`t that the truth.  In my experience, God is more like a mischievious like imp that goes around constipating people, losing their money, keeping them up nights tossing with panic.  It makes absolutely no (earthly) sense.  No matter who you are two things are true: (1) there are better people that have suffered more, and (2) there are worse people that have suffered less.

 

All the virtue in the world won`t protect you from miserable circumstance.  It might in fact draw misery towards you.  What virtue can do is help us rise above.  Virtue can help us feel unshakably OK in the midst of dire health difficulties and contentious presidential elections.  Virtue can help us forgive others and ourselves.  Virtue can help us find a safe comfy place within our own hearts, even as the seemingly indifferent universe explodes all around. 

Edited December 8, 2016 by liminal_luke

[Brian]

FWIW, I think I would be remiss if I didn't mention that suffering is not a universal experience. Experiencing challenges and difficult circumstances may be universal but not everyone experiences such experiences the same way, if you follow me. Some people crumble into despair at the drop of a hat while others pass through great storms with a song in their hearts. Not sure whether that would be the result of virtue or what -- perhaps it is a matter of perspective? What do other Bums think?

[Everything]

FWIW, I think I would be remiss if I didn't mention that suffering is not a universal experience. Experiencing challenges and difficult circumstances may be universal but not everyone experiences such experiences the same way, if you follow me. Some people crumble into despair at the drop of a hat while others pass through great storms with a song in their hearts. Not sure whether that would be the result of virtue or what -- perhaps it is a matter of perspective? What do other Bums think?

In my life, there are rare circumstances where I felt good about my paintolerance. As I (don't recommend this) performed tiny surgery on my infected swolen thumb. As when I let the doctors do it, they will numb the thumb with a very painful needle shot. Although the pain of the needle is quick, I felt better simply using special cleaning white powder for skin in hot water and create pain tolerance that way plus disinfecting allowing for me to create a disinfected slight cut where the pus was to open and release it. Not very painful tbh and performed this very cleanfully. And it saved me allot of days of pain. Tho better to just stop biting ur nails, as that will keep your finger from getting infected.

[liminal_luke]

FWIW, I think I would be remiss if I didn't mention that suffering is not a universal experience. Experiencing challenges and difficult circumstances may be universal but not everyone experiences such experiences the same way, if you follow me. Some people crumble into despair at the drop of a hat while others pass through great storms with a song in their hearts. Not sure whether that would be the result of virtue or what -- perhaps it is a matter of perspective? What do other Bums think?

 

Maybe virtue isn`t quite the right word, but I think it`s close.  I think the perspective that allows someone to "pass through great storms with a song in their hearts" is a precondition of virtue.  Take kindness, for example.  Kindness doesn`t flourish in a mindset of constriction.  This is especially evident in tricky situations when the kind thing to do isn`t immediately evident, say when someone wants to do something harmful to themselves and you wonder whether or not to intervene (the topic of a recent thread).  The same perspective that would allow us to endure difficult situations with aplomb is also indispensable for discerning right action.

 

Just my two cents...

 

LL

[Andrei]

GOD gave BRAIN and GUTS to you...

gave BRAIN and GUTS to you...

gave BRAIN and GUTS to EVERYONE

[Brian]

Maybe virtue isn`t quite the right word, but I think it`s close.  I think the perspective that allows someone to "pass through great storms with a song in their hearts" is a precondition of virtue.  Take kindness, for example.  Kindness doesn`t flourish in a mindset of constriction.  This is especially evident in tricky situations when the kind thing to do isn`t immediately evident, say when someone wants to do something harmful to themselves and you wonder whether or not to intervene (the topic of a recent thread).  The same perspective that would allow us to endure difficult situations with aplomb is also indispensable for discerning right action.

 

Just my two cents...

 

LL

I wasn't necessarily questioning the word choice, and I agree that it is at least close, but...

 

See, I don't consider myself to be particularly virtuous (or kind or compassionate) but I also don't suffer. In fact, other than a brief "dark night of the soul" sort of period in my teens, I don't remember ever suffering -- I observe others suffering and I recognize the emotions but it's more like this:

 

 

 

 

Not a conscious effort to "look on the bright side," mind you, but just a naturally occurring base state in which regrets and anxieties (living in the past and future, respectively) are essentially non-existent.

 

There's another thread going on right now about sleep; I started to reply in that thread and then didn't post it but I sleep like a baby. No regret, no anxiety, no suffering, no monkey mind. I can choose to enter sleep with my intent set on energetic work in dreamtime if I wish (and have increasing success with it, both in terms of consistency and effectiveness) but I fall asleep almost instantly regardless of diet or caffeine or whatever, regardless of distractions (TV, radio, traffic noises, thunderstorms, hurricanes, etc.), I am fine with four hours or ten hours, I can wake up to take the dog out in a blizzard and be asleep again a minute after my head hits the pillow. I think "stillness" is a common fiber between non-suffering and sleep, maybe?

Edited December 8, 2016 by Brian

[thelerner]

GOD gave BRAIN and GUTS to you...

gave BRAIN and GUTS to you...

gave BRAIN and GUTS to EVERYONE

Unfortunately he gave me

my fathers brains

and my mother's guts

 

She probably shoulda switched them around.

[cold]

" She probably shoulda switched them around."

 

Its probably neither nice nor wise to doubt perfection.

Don't ask me how I know, just trust me!

[liminal_luke]

See, I don't consider myself to be particularly virtuous (or kind or compassionate) but I also don't suffer. 

 

I agree with you that it`s possible to minimize or eliminate suffering without virtue. Perhaps this is what you`ve done but I doubt it.  On the contrary, I think you have a particular talent for the virtue Buddhists call upekkha. Upekkha roughly means equanimity and it`s one of the four Bhramaviharas (virtuous mindstates) along with kindness, compassion, and sympathetic joy. 

 

Buddhist meditation teacher Sharon Salzburg suggests repeating the following phrases to cultivate this virtue of equanimity.

 

• All beings are the owners of their karma. Their happiness and unhappiness depend upon their actions, not upon my wishes for them.
• May we all accept things as they are.
• May we be undisturbed by the comings and goings of events.
• I will care for you but cannot keep you from suffering.
• I wish you happiness but cannot make your choices for you.

I don`t know you in person so of course I could be wrong, but it seems to me this is something you do well.  It`s not the kind of blubbering effusiveness that people all too often confuse with love, but it`s an essential and underrated underpinning of right action.  Allowing people to enjoy (or suffer) the fruits of their own actions is also a kindness -- one that is congruent, I believe, with your political philosophy.

 

I`m reminded of a story you recently posted about telling a fast food worker that she was going to be OK before she had some sort of medical episode.  Was that not a kindness?  Everytime you do your spiritual practice you reinforce neurological pathways of stillness -- and not just for yourself.  When you`re in touch with stillness you make it that much easier for the people around you to get in touch with the same mindstate.  This is true whether you intend it or not and it`s a kindness. 

 

Sometimes the kindest gesture we can make towards another person isn`t a pat on the back.  Sometimes it`s a shrug.

Edited December 8, 2016 by liminal_luke

[Brian]

I agree with you that it`s possible to minimize or eliminate suffering without virtue. Perhaps this is what you`ve done but I doubt it.  On the contrary, I think you have a particular talent for the virtue Buddhists call upekkha. Upekkha roughly means equanimity and it`s one of the four Bhramaviharas (virtuous mindstates) along with kindness, compassion, and sympathetic joy. 

 

Buddhist meditation teacher Sharon Salzburg suggests repeating the following phrases to cultivate this virtue of equanimity.

• All beings are the owners of their karma. Their happiness and unhappiness depend upon their actions, not upon my wishes for them.
• May we all accept things as they are.
• May we be undisturbed by the comings and goings of events.
• I will care for you but cannot keep you from suffering.
• I wish you happiness but cannot make your choices for you.

I don`t know you in person so of course I could be wrong, but it seems to me this is something you do well.  It`s not the kind of blubbering effusiveness that people all too often confuse with love, but it`s an essential and underrated underpinning of right action.  Allowing people to enjoy (or suffer) the fruits of their own actions is also a kindness -- one that is congruent, I believe, with your political philosophy.

 

I`m reminded of a story you recently posted about telling a fast food worker that she was going to be OK before she had some sort of medical episode.  Was that not a kindness?  Everytime you do your spiritual practice you reinforce neurological pathways of stillness -- and not just for yourself.  When you`re in touch with stillness you make it that much easier for the people around you to get in touch with the same mindstate.  This is true whether you intend it or not and it`s a kindness. 

 

Sometimes the kindest gesture we can make towards another person isn`t a pat on the back.  Sometimes it`s a shrug.

 

Wow.

 

I think you hit it on the head, Luke. I am stunned, actually. I had never even encountered the word upekkha before but your post is uncanny and I've now read several web articles on the topic and I think I need to do some processing.

 

Thank you.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Brian

[cold]

The opposite of mass hysteria?

 

Mass stillness (peace) it starts somewhere.

 

Be the change you want to see in the world, when all around you are filled with fear... doubt... is it time to exit stage right?

 

Or hold the Hi ground? Where never is heard a discouraging word.

 

Kindness starts with eye contact,

 

accompanied with a smile,

 

followed by a gesture of recognition.

 

Free, easy and benefits both parties.

[Goldleaf]

THank you all so much for sharing your views.  I will comment on some shortly.

 

This thread will hopefully help others  who suffere from bad sleeps in future.

 

In fact, {and I could be wrong} , I don't believe my problem lies in my state of mind, and I have forgiven myself all my past mistakes and honestly only belive in making effort in the things that have nasty effect.  But when you don't know what it is, you have no chice but to try every angle.  I still give myself all day until I feel sometimes I can barely walk by the end of the day and my hamstrings feel like they are about to snap.  I can get to sleep easily and still dream but as I said wake with painful diarrehoea and a deep cough.

 

Thing is, I have had good sleeps in the past here, where I only needed 6 hours sleep, had deep dreams, woke with a raging boner and ready to conquer the day.  Which means something seems to have changed in the envirnoment, either the walls of floor or windows or paint I don't know.

 

Also, I would like to delve deeply into this, from all angles.  I want to understand the thorough, clear way to have an optimum sleep so that I can help others do the same in future.   

 

So with this in mind if some don't mind sharing some subtle changes that you made {either physical mental or emotional} that gave you wonderful sleeps.  Soon I will write another post which condenses this thread and other threads into some of the most common and effective techniques to at least give a shotgun approach for those not sleeping well.

 

And also some weird questions:

 

I bought an old'-school gas mask recently to combat what I think is the substance in the room that I am reacting to but it was too hot to wear and sleep in {go t a refund}.  Does anyone know or has tried a gas mask that could be used comfortable for sleeping in?

 

Is there any cheap method of doing allergy testing for specifuic substances?  I.e any way to buy the products somewhere cheaply?  I have found some on ebay but they are just for dog and cat hair / hay fever, etc.

 

Regards

Gl