Liu Huayang

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

Just curious, why "Awaken" is repeating the same view as "Taoist Texts"? Is it a school or something?

 

It is an academy. Problem?

[Taoist Texts]

no, but out of curiosity again, can you explain who teaches who?

Dude you just called mods on me and you still talk to me?

 

Leave me alone.

[Taoist Texts]

it was somehow unclear for you, but it's a public forum about Daoism.

There are other people around, it's not a private chat.

off to my ignore list you go. Gun!

[dawei]

it was somehow unclear for you, but it's a public forum about Daoism.

There are other people around, it's not a private chat.

 

~~~ ADMIN NOTICE ~~~

 

It is not a public forum.   You can registered and join but need to be approved to be a part of this community.  And you need to remain within the rules to remain on the forum.  

 

As an Admin Warning:  Please stop using the Report Button for petty stuff.   You are on the verse of abusing the system function with multiple reports; Reports exist for problems and not for just personal complaints.   It eats up staff time to read, discuss and decide on action or not. 

 

If you don't like the conversation, then I would suggest to just walk away. 

 

This is a discussion forum with a focus on personal practices and arts in energy.   

 

The rude way in which there appears to be a group of you who show up and gangs up on folks in order to disparage, mock and belittle others is well known and tiring.

 

Please take this as a notice not to threaten anyone but encourage everyone to stick to discussions and not to direct personal jabs at each other.    

 

To be honest, fair, and transparent... we do allow that to some degree as it is a part of our nature to both protect ourselves and those things we associate with (ie; a system, school, teaching, etc).    I'm not opposed to allowing the flow of folks blowing steam off.    But when you start to repeatedly "Report" stuff and at the same time continue to propel the issue within the thread, then one may not receive the attention a report really serves.

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Zhongyongdaoist]

~~~ ADMIN NOTICE ~~~

 

It is not a public forum.   You can registered and join but need to be approved to be a part of this community.  And you need to remain within the rules to remain on the forum.  

 

As an Admin Warning:

 

. . .

 

To be honest, fair, and transparent... we do allow that to some degree as it is a part of our nature to both protect ourselves and those things we associate with (ie; a system, school, teaching, etc).    I'm not opposed to allowing the flow of folks blowing steam off.    But when you start to repeatedly "Report" stuff and at the same time continue to propel the issue within the thread, then one may not receive the attention a report really serves.

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

It's called crying wolf

 

And it doesn't help any of us, member's or staff alike, because it does take up time which should be used to deal with more serious infractions.  It's to your credit and advantage not to damage your credibility.

[Taoist Texts]

It seems to me that it has some relation to http://dandao.ru

Check its section "основатели школы". http://dandao.ru/fen-martial1-arts-fen-zhi-qian

 

Now you see where all this comes from. 

But may be I am wrong. 

 

Un-freaking- belivable

[Taoist Texts]

Thank you Awaken, found the article you posted before

 

《伍柳天仙法脉修持指要》

 

附录：伍柳派略考

 

　　一、伍柳二仙真承传天仙正法，并未组创伍柳派。

　　伍祖1593年逢师，1612年得三成全传。于1615年收朱太和为徒，1632年传衣钵全法于朱太和。 1644年元旦，明亡前为全世节而大隐。 1639年留记云：天仙之道，百劫百年一传于世。

　　柳师约于1760年得伍祖传天仙正法，应百年一传留记。又遇壶云老师传达摩、慧能、寂无「拈花微笑」佛宗正法。

　　仙佛正传，本同源同法、同修同证。本无彼此之分，仅示法各有侧重。伍祖承传天仙正法，柳师兼得仙佛正法。伍柳二真履世相距百年以上，并未组派，更非衣钵之传。

　　二、世称伍柳派之来源

　　后世修者，得伍柳二真人传世丹经之荫泽，尊称修炼二真人所传天仙正法者为伍柳派。

　　伍祖传世丹经有1622年着《天仙正理》，1632年着《仙佛合宗语录》，并亲示以1639年二着加注者为准。柳师传世丹经有1790年着《金仙证论》，1794年着《慧命经》，1799年增补危险说与后危险说于《金仙证论》中，重宣入手人仙功的诀旨心印。

　　二真人四着，本分刊度世。 1864年后世学者始将柳师二着合刻，有梁靖阳序为证。此时并无伍柳派之概念，直至1897年光绪二十三年丁酉岁，邓徽绩等合刻四着于一书。定书名为《伍柳仙宗》，此后方有伍柳派之概念。此论有邓氏（合刻伍柳真人书叙）及程德灿序文为证。邓氏书叙明言合刻之因为诚求真师。邓云求道二十余年，虽得四着，尚茫不知旨。特募资刊印，以求感恪天仙正道之真师，怜其诚笃而度之。可知首创伍柳合名于一处的邓氏，出书时，非但未得伍柳亲度，此时井未真悟四着所阐天仙大道之理法诀景旨。邓氏出书后是否得度，当视其根基因缘。可见连首创伍柳合名之邓氏，亦非伍柳派之宗祖。后世自称伍柳派者，皆仅私淑二真人之学而已。其中真得天仙正传者，为真伍柳派。不知天仙正法者，悉皆冒牌货，多欺世盗名之棍徒。

可笑后世棍徒，根基远不如邓氏，诚笃更与邓氏有霄壤之差，为求浮世虚名，欺世盗名，常以伍柳派嫡传诳人欺世；甚或诳称亲受柳师之度；以俗世姓氏宗谱惑人。

　　吾今郑重警醒真修实悟者，切勿上当受骗，误入歧途。伍祖留记明示：天仙之道，百劫百年一传于世。岂能轻易传人！凡得真传者，必能证天仙，证佛果。必能真证实证长生不死，此乃初成小证，何足道哉！岂后世之棍徒，以其不知真法，不得真证，不能不死，不得不死，却诳称羽化之小术哉！真修实悟者，当深研细悟二真人四着原文。四着已示三成全法全旨。今世上尚无其他真得二真人所示初成法中，第一、二两层人仙功法真传者。二真人早料及此，为防棍徒妄言贻误真修者，皆于着中明戒曰「毋劳后注」。世人何不悟之甚，还枉受欺骗！

黄元吉真人体伍柳二真人普度慈心，于传世二着《道德经注释》、《乐育堂语录》中，重点特阐初成功中第一层入手孕、调药求玄关之法，可惜世上少有知音者。

三、如何辨别真崇真得真传伍柳天仙功法？

伍祖柳师浅言直示天仙正法以来，对后世真修者影响甚大。常有不肖棍徒，借二真人之名，招摇撞骗，攫取名利，贻误真修实悟者。为防止此等祸害，特提出以下辨识真得、真修、真传伍柳天仙功法的要点。

（一）以弘扬伍柳功法为己任，认真校刊原著，遵戒不妄注妄论。

既真崇、真学、真传伍柳功法，则二真人传世之著，即为祖经。二真人皆明戒「毋劳妄注」，必当谨遵；否则名为弘伍柳，阴实扬己名，私售旁学攫取名利，乃奸诈棍徒之手段。

（二）全力辑全二真人之著，删除非二真人原著之文，订正《伍柳仙宗》或各单行本中历次刊印之误。

　　正文末已示，二真人之著，于首次刊印时，在功法关键处，即有因刊印之误漏。真得传者，必可校勘刊误，一一订正，以继二真人仙踪，实现二真人普度真修者之宏愿。若不能校出各版误漏，辗转照录原误，甚或更增已误，必是未得法者。又《伍柳仙宗》，既未辑全二真人传世内丹之著，又有后人妄增紫阳、潜虚、三丰、涵虚四真人之文于《慧命经》中，又不加说明，应予删去，以复原著全貌。 （《伍柳仙宗》已示三成全法，何劳再辑四真人之文。）故重刊《伍柳仙宗全辑》，当是真崇、真学、真传伍柳功法者义不容辞的责任。托名伍柳传人者，岂可不致力于此弘传祖经，普渡真修的神圣天职，而以攫取个人名利为务？

（三）正法择徒只凭德行根基，不论亲疏。

仙佛正法衣钵，非财产、非世法小技、非谋生小术，可私传子孙。必择有德有根基因缘者，始能传承。故世尊传禅宗正法时，择知悟「拈花微笑」之苦行头陀迦叶为初祖，而不选尚为色尘所困之堂弟阿难。中国禅宗五祖弘忍大师不传衣钵于素得亲信之首座神秀，独传目不识丁，舂米侍者慧能大师，盖因六祖慧根深厚。

 

This is the part about no transmission within Wu's family

 

 

李虚庵老祖、曹还阳老祖皆有子后，始得真传，却皆传衣钵于有德有根基者。李传曹，曹传伍，皆未传承于亲子。又伍祖传衣钵于朱太和（朱先本是守虚真人之徒，根基德行可受天仙衣钵正传，故得伍祖衣钵。朱因避清朝初期搜灭亡明宗室之祸，密修密传衣钵，而不为世人所知）而并未传衣钵于堂弟太初，堂侄太一。（伍真人虽遵母命成婚，未闻有子。）

 

 

 

柳真人自幼为僧，更无子嗣，亦未传法于堂弟道宽，勇水庵方丈原明大和尚，却度有不少外姓弟子，柳师既无组派之念，自无衣钵之传。奉劝世之托庇姓伍姓柳者，不必以姓氏为骗人手段，欺世盗名，妄称得有祖传、单传、秘传。何必作此陷先祖于不义，坑真修于旁门的丧德劣行！

 

（四）天仙功法悉皆静虚之功

伍柳所传天仙正功，必宗静虚总则，初成法就是筑基功，入手法就是初成法中第一层第一步的孕药炼己之功，皆以静虚为正功。绝无矫揉造作，编排各种动作之旁门小法，妄称不传秘法。

[A.A.Khokhlov]

This is highly doubtful as TAC recognizes only 2 schools and WLP is not one of them.

 

Once again here you make a statement you know nothing about. Do you know of difference of how official CTA (yes correct acronym was a tiny test) had treated 派's before the Falungong and after the Falungong?

 

No ,

 

De exits before dao de Jin.

 

De comes from very very ancient china.

 

德 is an ancient term, it appeared before Daodejing. Daodejing describes the role of De in alchemic practice.

德 can not originate from India. Simply because it is an ancient Chinese character and might not be a phonetic adoption from Sanscrit.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[gatito]

It's called crying wolf

 

<snip>

 

Perhaps a translation into Russian would be helpful?:

 

 

 

[gatito]

 

[A.A.Khokhlov]

De is something inside your heard.

 

Of course, not for discussing.

 

You need protect your heart into the good mood.

 

Give up to protect your school.

 

It is nonsense.

 

Your achieving is the best way to Horner your school.

Few questions to you then.

 

1) How do you understand famous     上徳不徳是以有徳下徳不失徳是以無徳     ?

2) This ancient usage of  徳  shows us its relation to something more than just one's heart, something that can be inherited by descendants:    非以其先之有德澤流後世邪行道德豈可以忽乎哉     .

3) Another one:    上含淳德以遇其下    which says about De being contained inside of a person. (opposite to just having some characteristic like being kind).

 

BTW, still hope to get your answer about houtian bagua sequence.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[effilang]

First person is getting born, then becoming adult, becoming old, getting illnesses and finally dies. None of above is a subject of change except the case person is practicing Real Dao - from old getting young, from sick getting healthy, escaping from death and becoming an immortal.

 

Hello A.A.Khokhlov,

 

Thank you for joining the forum and sharing your ideas with us. It has been really refreshing to see a represenative of Wu Liu Pai on the Tao Bums that carries himself with respect and integrity, and I appreciate you taking your time to reply to everyone's questions in such a way as to trigger productive debates and stimulate thinking.

 

One of your posts stood out to me as It juxtaposes very contrastingly with Xiantian practice in my school. While I appreciate and understand the necessity for this approach in Houtian, how do you reconcile this with the fact that almost all masters were buried or cremated?

 

Is it necessary to escape physical death to become an immortal?

 

What is the correlation between escaping physical death and spiritual immortality?

Isn't life part of the process of cultivation itself which goes on even when immortality is being cultivated.

Why do we have to escape at all? What is there to escape from?

 

In houtian xiulian, it seems that one of the main purposes of actively maintaining and attempting to maximize ones physical lifespan is a facility employed with the understanding that the cultivation of the subtle immortal spirit (Yang Shen) to the point of sufficient maturity, can be a very lengthy task, often decorated with many failures and re-tries, therefore it would behoove one to maintain the basis for this transformation healthy as long as is necessary for the Yang spirit to mature so that it can be consciously operated.

 

Do you think that it's possible this is the purpose of all the extensive physical regiments in houtian, as opposed to turning the material body into the immaterial? Didn't Zhang Boduan say somewhere that the material cannot beget the immaterial, making a differentiation between those that cultivate the impermanent post natal essence and those that trigger the cultivation of the prenatal essence, which leads to true attainment?

 

In my experience physical matter born from Taichi, governed by the laws of Yin and Yang itself; such as a human beings that are formed of the 5 elements, cannot pass through the Xuan Guan and enter Wuji. Even the highest post natal energy of Shen in the human body cannot pass through Xuan Guan, which is why we must detach from the 5 thieves. Only the immaterial spirits residing in/out of the body can do this - OR, do you maintain that the physical mass and tissues of the body are transformed into immortalized spiritual essence that merge with our developing Yang Shen, the essence of which both come together to form one being?

 

Again if this is the standard for transformation in spiritual Daoism, then how come so many of the old masters were buried and cremated?

 

Even if we look at Daoist schools today. Whose school had Benjamin Button for a master and if they could live without aging or sickness, why didn't they simply continue to teach to benefit humanity?

 

Most immortals spend a vast majority of their time (they are beyond spacetime) in helping other beings and humans. Why throw away the convenience of a life born on earth, where the body has been cultivated to a state where it cannot die or age or feel sickness, and they have spiritual powers and continue to use it to help people, rather than to abandon a young and vibrant body of 90 years of age, exit Taichi, enter Wuji and then proceed to guide people from that dimension where even vibrating down from the absolute to enter the relative realm on Earth burns off Gong De?

It seems like a ridiculously inefficient decision from someone who at that level should be incredibly wise and filled with a desire to help other beings awaken, as is evidenced by the activity of immortals. What better place to do it that on earth? The human condition is perfect for it. Yet, somehow we see quite the opposite with most of masters dying quite early.

 

Zhang Daoling died around 122, but today there are some people who have lived to that age also that probably have never heard of Daoism. Legend says he turned into fairy dust and leaped up into the heavens with his body disappearing, but as you know, legend says that legend says that legend says. There is no proof. 

 

If I am not mistaken Zhang Boduan also died before he even reached 100.

 

Furthermore if there are still so many authentic Daoist schools who carry on the TRUE teachings as many of them claim and have been doing so for 100s or thousands of years, then where are their masters that were never burried or their students that followed the true way of the immortals and never died? There are many Daoist schools and temples today, where can we find these guys that do not age and die like everybody else, even when they are the official representatives of their ancient lineages?

 

I'd love to know what you think of these discrepancies between cultivating the material body as a means of reaching the spirit vs cultivating the spirit directly and allowing the physical body to die in Taiji and return to the earth following nature.

 

In my tradition we focus almost fully on the cultivation of the immaterial spirit, because in our experience this is the only type of energy that can penetrate into Wuji and is suitable to form a whole with our awareness, so that  both can exist as one vehicle: Awareness + Spiritual Body. Having said that, we also we also practice charity, live in society so we can develop our intellect and basic wisdom and perform humanitarian activities and contribute to society to help the lives of others.

 

I'm curious to know what you think.

Edited December 9, 2016 by effilang

[Taoist Texts]

Once again here you make a statement you know nothing about. Do you know of difference of how official CTA (yes correct acronym was a tiny test) had treated 派's before the Falungong and after the Falungong?

 

 

Sigh. Chinese people use characters they do not use latin acronims, thus there are no official ones.

 

https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD%E9%81%93%E6%95%99%E5%8D%8F%E4%BC%9A

 

as on this wikipage.

 

Apparently you imply that your certificate was granted before falun. Well then now it is revoked and invalid then. Saying that WLP IS recognized is incorrect. Can you provide any proof that WLP was recognized before falun?

 

Let me guess. No , you can not.

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Now lets continue the discussion of necessity of having a Teacher in ancient Patriarch's precepts.
 

1. 張伯端 Zhang Boduan 
 
饶君聪慧过颜闵，不遇真师莫强猜。
 

Even if your abundant wisdom surpasses the knowledge of Yan and Min,
Without meeting a true teacher you shouldn't just stubbornly make guesses.

 
只为金丹无口诀，教君何处结灵胎。
 

Only practicing "golden elixir" without a verbal teaching,
From what place would you learn how to concieve the spiritual fetus?

 

By the message cited above we have intentionally checked our opponents on knowing and understanding Zhan Boduan's texts. And we found no understanding, just own interpretations and guessings based on nothing (if you actually have any basement you are still welcome to share). Why? Because texts of the Daozang itself are unequivocal about necessity of having a Teacher. You may take a look and ascertain it yourself:

 

 2. Text and commentary of Lui Dongbin confirming misunderstanding Neidan without a Teacher:

 

純陽真人沁園春丹詞注解 

不因師指此事爭知

《悟真篇》云：饒君聰慧過顏閔，不遇真人莫強猜。蓋丹經所陳，或假物以明理，或設象以寓意，名義不同，學者卒然讀之，莫不有望洋之欺。且以五行言之，或日金木，或日金土，或日水火，或日金火，或日金水，或日木火，或日水土，使人心目俱眩，誠不易知也。

 

3. Commentary of taoist 翁葆光 to Zhang Boduan's Wuzhenpian is also for that:

 

紫陽真人悟真篇註疏  南宋翁葆光注 

饒君聰慧過顏閔，不遇師傳莫強猜。

只為丹經無口訣，教君何處結靈胎。

 

註曰：千經萬論，惟布枝條。至道不繁，獨傳心印。未遇真師，徒勞口耳。此道非真師口訣，雖有顏閔之聰慧，亦不可強自猜度也。

 

4. Here (beyond other) necessity of transmission from true teacher confirms Xue Daoguang, 3rd patriarch of Southern Neidan School, where the 1st Patriarch was Zhang Boduan himself:

 

紫陽真人悟真篇三註

　　經名：紫陽真人悟真篇三註。五卷，北宋張伯端原著，南宋薛道光、陸墅，元陳致虛注。

道光曰：千經萬論，唯布枝條。至道不繁，獨傳心印，未遇真師，強猜不得。

　　子野曰：非師口訣真要，則從何處而下手。

上陽子曰：九流百家，一應藝術，皆可留之紙上，或可以智慧猜曉而知，唯獨金丹一事，非得真師逐節指示，不可強以意會。或者得師略言鼎器，而不知藥生之時，亦不成丹。既知藥物，不知火候，亦不成丹。既知火候，而不顛倒，亦不成丹。既知顛倒，而不知煉己細微，亦不成丹。

 

5. Zhang Boduan's teacher Liu Haichan about the impossibility of having an achievements in Neidan without a Teacher:

 

金丹大藥，古人以萬劫一傳。玉筍靈篇，學者之十迷九八，聖師口口，歷代心心，若非心傳口授，縱使三傑之才，十哲之智，百端揣度，亦終不能下手，結就聖胎矣。所謂：饒君聰慧過顏閔，不遇明師莫強猜，只為金丹無口訣，教君何處結靈胎。劉海蟾詩日：此道迥昭彰，如何亂揣量。金丹之道，若不遇真師，實難知之矣。

 

6. 修真十書 treatise (Ding Yuan) says that you won't understand without a teacher:

 

饒君聰慧過顏閔，不遇師傳莫強猜。只為丹經無口訣，教君何處結靈胎。

袁公輔曰：千經萬論，止載修丹事理，至於下手結交，火侯幽微，非遇師親授，縱才過顏閔，則不可曉。

 

7. Treatise of famous Li Daochun of Yuan's dynasty is saying that without a teacher it is a plain silliness:

 

中和集  元李道純撰

若不遇真師點化，皆妄為矣。

 

If you won't meet a guidance from true teacher - all of it are stupid actions.

 

 

And later Li Daochun quotes words of Zhang Boduan himself:

 

紫陽真人曰：饒君聰慧過顏閔，不遇真師莫強猜。正謂此也

 

 

 

Don't you find here too many solidary taoist Patriarchs against two ignoramuses? Or should we continue?

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2016 by A.A.Khokhlov

[Kar3n]

Maybe it happened because we saw no balanced moderators' reaction previous week or so?

 

I'm a moderator at another forum, and I didn't know exactly how report button works in this forum engine software. It could be that reports about same thread are collected and moderators can use them to provide a qualified answer why moderation did happen or not. Next time I'll try collect all rules infringements together before reporting. But I don't think it's just minor or subjective things.

 

By public forum I meant this: Messages posted to a forum are publicly available for some time even if the forum or thread is closed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum). It means that anyone can read and that's why TheDaoBums has clear rules about insults and trolling.

 

I hope this will help everybody. Sorry to disturb.

 

 

There has been some nudging by members and the mods team to move away from the sniping and trolling since this mess started.

 

 

We like to allow members to self moderate and work through grievances with one another if at all possible. It is usually only when it starts getting nasty and reports start rolling in that we take real action. First by placing a notice in the thread reminding members of the rules, if it continues it goes to a warning in the thread along with a PM to the offender/s, and then to mod action in the form of a suspension or a ban if needed.

 

Moderators are alerted to a new reports submitted via software notifications. We do some research and discuss whether to take action or not based on the rules and terms of service set by our forum owner and predecessors. Each report on a member, is for the most part, looked at individually, but can be compounded if they are on the same post or subject matter, even from a different thread. Closed reports are documented in appropriate logs where necessary.

 

Moderators and admin are volunteers. We work as quickly as we can to close reports out and take action where appropriate, all while managing our personal, professional and spiritual lives.

 

We thank you all, kindly, for your cooperation.

[dawei]

 

Don't you find here too many solidary taoist Patriarchs against two ignoramus? Or should we continue?

 

I really like this post... but who are the two ignoramus?   Is that in the text you quote?

[effilang]

If you won't meet a guidance from true teacher - all of it are stupid actions.

 

Hmmm..

 

How can the ignorant student incapable of effectively vetting his master due to his own lack of practical experience, truly recognize a true teacher from a false teacher, especially if the teacher is incapable of providing immediate evidence of the results which are being sought?

 

Is to trust such a teacher not a stupid action of itself or are we reduced to the option of blind faith vs wisdom and common sense in these scenarios?

 

In houtian xiulian, one human master practicing immortality is teaching another human student practicing immortality.

 

How can the master teach that which he has yet to fully accomplish himself?

It seems that he would only be able to take the student as far as his own achievements, before having to revert again to the uncertainty of books.

 

If a school is teaching immortality, then there must be at least one immortal in the school and by your definition this is someone who gets young instead of old, has escaped death and sickness. Where can we find this person in each Daoist school today and why are they not a little more popular, because if there isn't at least one immortal in each Daoist school, then it means that to some extent everyone is chasing the other persons tail and the dog in front actually has no personal experience of the final state.

 

What happens in such a case?

 

Can we speculate that there are other reservoirs of instruction and guidance that one can tap into to in order to continue their cultivation after such a stage and if yes, then in what shape or form do you think they are represented, since books cannot be relied on fully?

 

Do you believe that it is impossible for one to learn to cultivate their spirit on their own? Surely at some point in humanity there must have been a time when nobody had yet begun spiritual cultivation, then suddenly someone was triggered to pursue it. Did they not learn on their own or did an immortal come down to teach the first human? Because it begs the question, where did the teacher of the first person to practice spiritual cultivation come from?

 

Must there always be a transferred method or is it possible to attain samadhi, reside in emptiness and have the primordial Qi of the Dao transform our spirit automatically through wu wei?

 

Slightly unrelated but three nice texts come to mind:

 

---------------------------------------------

"When the nine-year practice is concluded, in its non-doing, one’s Nature is of its own perfect, and in its formlessness, one’s Spirit is of its own wondrous. When Spirit is wondrous, its transformations are inexhaustible, and its states of manifestation and non-manifestation are unfathomable. When Nature is perfect, its wisdom illuminates all directions, and in its being numinous and pervasive, it can suffer no damage. Therefore one can can divide one’s being into a myriad beings that manifest themselves in limitless ways, while one’s own body of utmost reality dwells in the realm of utmost quiescence, silent and ceaselessly abiding in non-doing. This is because one’s Nature, one’s Spirit, one’s form, and one’s existence are joined in their reality with the reality of the Dao."

---------------------------------------------

"What should we expect?

Should we really think it curious to never have known an immortal? At a hundred paces the eyes do not see everything clearly, so we decide to see certain things as existent and others as nonexistent. Surely because of our ignorant discriminations there will be many things in the world we will decide do not exist. This is like saying,

" The ocean is no deeper than the depth I can measure with my finger. "

How can a short-lived insect discern the age of a tortoise, or a shrub reason the life span of the great ch'un tree?

---------------------------------------------

Unborn and imperishable Is the original mind

Earth, water, fire and wind

A temporary lodging for the night

Attached to this ephemeral burning house

You yourselves light the fire, kindle the flames

In which you're consumed..

---------------------------------------------

Edited December 9, 2016 by effilang

[awaken]

Few questions to you then.

 

1) How do you understand famous 上徳不徳是以有徳下徳不失徳是以無徳 ?[/size]

2) This ancient usage of 徳 [/size]shows us its relation to something more than just one's heart, something that can be inherited by descendants: 非以其先之[/size]有德澤流後世[/size]邪行道德豈可以忽乎哉 .[/size]

3) Another one: [/size]上含淳德以遇[/size]其下 [/size]which says about De being contained inside of a person. (opposite to just having some characteristic like being kind).

 

BTW, still hope to get your answer about houtian bagua sequence.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Welcome to my qq group.

 

 

上德不德，

 

上德，謂太古無名號之君，德大無上，故言上德也。不德者，言其不以德教民，因循自然，養人性命，其德不見，故言不德也。

 

是以有德；

 

言其德合於天地，和氣流行，民得以全也。

 

下德不失德，

 

下德，謂號諡之君，德不及上德，故言下德也。不失德者，其德可見，其功可稱也。

 

是以無德。

 

以有名號及其身故。

 

上德無為

 

謂法道安靜，無所改為也。

 

而無以為；

 

言無以名號為。

 

下德為之

 

言為教令施政事也。

 

而有以為。

 

言以為己取名號也。

 

 

 

 

 

德者，得也。常得而無喪，利而無害，故以德為名焉。何以得德？由乎道也。何以盡德？以無為用。以無為用則莫不載也，故物無焉，則無物不經，有焉，則不足以免其生。是以天地雖廣，以無為心。聖王雖大，以虛為主。故曰，以復而視，則天地之心見。至日而思之，則先王之至覩也。故滅其私而無其身，則四海莫不瞻，遠近莫不至。殊其己而有其心，則一體不能自全，肌骨不能相容，是以上德之人，唯道是用。不德其德，無執無用，故能有德而無不為，不求而得，不為而成，故雖有德而無德名也。下德求而得之，為而成之，則立善以治物，故德名有焉。求而得之必有失焉，為而成之必有敗焉，善名生則有不善應焉，故下德為之而有以為也。無以為者，無所偏為也。凡不能無為而為之者，皆下德也。

 

 

 

From 河上公章句│王弼注

 

 

It takes a lot of time for me to translate these.

 

So......

 

If you can read Chinese, it is clear enough.

 

 

 

In Chinese, the same word can used to be a verb, noun, or adj,adv...etc

 

So the same as de

 

But surely not "result"

 

I do not know who is his teacher.

 

If his teacher teach him that de is a result, how can he claim that he has a true teacher?

 

What is de is very easy to be understand for Chinese.

 

Because we are taught since we were a child.

 

De is in every daily life.

 

 

 

 

If you do something good without using your names, you just do something good, just because it is right, not to get a good name from others, then people may think you are 上德.

 

But if you do something just to get the good fame from others, then people may think you are 下德

 

 

So I told him that a real cultivator should not focus on the fame.

 

The heart of chasing fame and money is totally not cultivator, is a businessman.

 

How can a businessman claim that he is a true teacher?

 

 

 

 

 

So you can see many Chinese did good things and do not want their name show up.

 

The people who was taken the help from the people without giving names will call them 無名氏

 

無名氏is very easy to be seen in temples.

 

 

 

 

Normally, if you want to know such a big issue, you need to be a student and have a student's attitude.

 

I like to teach without getting anything.

 

But I do care if someone has the good attitude or friendly or not.

Edited December 10, 2016 by awaken

[Taoist Texts]

 

Now lets continue the discussion of necessity of having a Teacher in ancient Patriarch's precepts.

 

 

Don't you find here too many solidary taoist Patriarchs against two ignoramus? Or should we continue?

 

 

I do not sure who you  are addressing but your lengthy post above is just a spam. There is 2 reasons why you leave the paragraphs above untranslated , giving a false interpretation instead.

A. In your ignorance you do not know how to translate properly. B. If  translated fully - the falsity of your views will be obvious.

 

It is very easy to prove

 

 

5. Zhang Boduan's teacher Liu Haichan about the impossibility of having an achievements in Neidan without a Teacher:

 

金丹大藥，古人以萬劫一傳。玉筍靈篇，學者之十迷九八，聖師口口，歷代心心，若非心傳口授，縱使三傑之才，十哲之智，百端揣度，亦終不能下手，結就聖胎矣。所謂：饒君聰慧過顏閔，不遇明師莫強猜，只為金丹無口訣，教君何處結靈胎。劉海蟾詩日：此道迥昭彰，如何亂揣量。金丹之道，若不遇真師，實難知之矣。

 

 

 

 

What is 學者之十迷九八? What is 實難知之矣。?

[Taoist Texts]

I really like this post... but who are the two ignoramus?   Is that in the text you quote?

Oh he is just insulting myself and Awaken:)

 

Ironically he is ignorant of the plural being ignoramuses.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Taoist Texts

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

If his teacher teach him that de is a result, how can he claim that he has a true teacher?

 

What is de is very easy to be understand for Chinese.

 

Because we are taught since we were a child.

 

 

How can a businessman claim that he is a true teacher?

 

 

And to steal chinese heritage while claiming that. But thats what they do, thats what they come for.

 

The horseman serves the horse,

The neat-herd serves the neat,

The merchant serves the purse,

The eater serves his meat;

'Tis the day of the chattel,

Web to weave, and corn to grind,

Things are in the saddle,

And ride mankind.

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Sigh. Chinese people use characters they do not use latin acronims, thus there are no official ones.

 

https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD%E9%81%93%E6%95%99%E5%8D%8F%E4%BC%9A

 

as on this wikipage.

 

Apparently you imply that your certificate was granted before falun. Well then now it is revoked and invalid then. Saying that WLP IS recognized is incorrect. Can you provide any proof that WLP was recognized before falun?

 

Let me guess. No , you can not.

 

You've once again sat in a puddle (nice Russian saying describing a person doing stupid things). CTA is how they officially name themselves in English and we have documents confirming that.

And they use this name not without a reason: 中国 C 道教 T 协会 A. Are even these simple characters being twisted in your head?

 

 

Of course we are recognized. And even now if you talk to CTA officials in Beijing and epsecially in some specific regions (I won't name you which) you would see our School is treated with the greatest respect.

 

Yes they won't give you a paper now because of anti Falungong laws but the documents we have are quite enough for everyone. To see these documents one have to visit our main branch in Saint-Petersburg. But particularly you would be left profane, not admitted into the Temple.

 

Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

[alchemist]

Text I cited is the beginning of Daozang evidence to necessity of having a Teacher (#1 of so far 7 items).

Should be quite obvious for anyone interested in neidan. All Patriarchs state that one needs a Teacher.

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Welcome to my qq group.

 

 

上德不德，...

 

Thank you for your invitation. But so far you are blaming ancient Taoist Patriarchs being honoured by the Tradition and still given no answer to a simpliest questions.

 

1) Can you please answer in simple words what  上徳不徳是以有徳下徳不失徳是以無徳   is about?

2) How would you comment on   有德澤流後世   and   上含淳德以遇   usages of   德   (you can see full quotes in message #111)?

 

3) Could you please decribe the houtian bagua sequence from the alchemy practice perspective?  (simpliest question for those who have been initiated into a true Taoist School).

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[Taoist Texts]

You've once again sat in a puddle (nice Russian saying describing a person doing stupid things). CTA is how they officially name themselves in English and we have documents confirming that.

And they use this name not without a reason: 中国 C 道教 T 协会 A. Are even these simple characters being twisted in your head?

 

LOL, these people have no clue;)       Religions of the World: A Comprehensive Encyclopedia of Beliefs and ...

https://books.google.ru/books?isbn=1598842048

J. Gordon Melton, ‎Martin Baumann - 2010 - ‎Religion

The Chinese Daoist Association (CDA) is the government organization that regulates Daoism in the People's Republic of China (PRC). Based in Beijing's ...

China's Governance Model: Flexibility and Durability of Pragmatic ...

https://books.google.ru/books?isbn=1317859529

Hongyi Lai - 2016 - ‎Political Science

Coopting the established religions into official associations The five religions ... the Chinese Buddhist Association (CBA); the Chinese Daoist Association (CDA); ...

The Crisis of Global Modernity - Page 44 - Google Books Result

https://books.google.ru/books?isbn=1107082250

Prasenjit Duara - 2014 - ‎Business & Economics

... secular organization committed to assisting religions develop environmental programs, and the Chinese Daoist Association (CDA) (Zhongguo daojiao xiehui).

Handbook of Research on Development and Religion

https://books.google.ru/books?isbn=0857933574

Matthew Clarke - 2013 - ‎Religion

Daoists are initiated into a tradition by a master, receiving sacred texts and ... single organizational framework, known as the Chinese Daoist Association (CDA).

The Way of Complete Perfection: A Quanzhen Daoist Anthology

https://books.google.ru/books?isbn=1438446519

Louis Komjathy - 2013 - ‎History

A Quanzhen Daoist Anthology Louis Komjathy ... the Chinese Daoist Association (CDA/CTA), which, it should be recognized, is primarily a political organization.

Introducing Daoism - Page 247 - Google Books Result

https://books.google.ru/books?isbn=0980163323

Livia Kohn - 2009 - ‎Religion

... institution for Daoist research in France Chan (Zen) Buddhism — Chinese ... Six Healing Sounds Chinese Daoist Association (CDA) — Official body of Daoist ...

Religion Under Socialism in China - Page xxiii - Google Books Result

https://books.google.ru/books?isbn=0873326091

Zhufeng Luo - 1991 - ‎Political Science

... CBA — Chinese Buddhist Association CCP — Chinese Communist Party CCPA — Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association CDA — Chinese Daoist Association ...

Daoism and Development | James Miller 苗建時

www.jamesmiller.ca/daoism-and-development/

1.  
2.  

Daoism, also spelled Taoism, is China's organized, indigenous religious system. ... organizational framework, known as the Chinese Daoist Association (CDA).

You visited this page on 12/9/16.

ARC - Faiths and ecology - Daoist eco-news

www.arcworld.org › Faiths and Ecology › Daoism

1.  
2.  

January 29, 2014, Daoist and Buddhist leaders promote eco-friendly incense for ... Master Ren Farong is the President of the China Daoist Association (CDA).

https://www.google.ru/search?q=CDA&oq=CDA&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.2104j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#newwindow=1&q=CDA+chinese+daoist+association&nfpr=1

 

 

Have a nice sitting  in a poodle, mister, LOL