Tolerance Taiji

[Arkady Shadursky]

Effilang,

yes you are right about getting out of Taiji for immortals, however something still would be different for man and woman on high levels. Yang Shen would have specific abilities different for man and woman (saying that based on open Russian articles of WuLiupai disciples).

 

And I'm not talking about hohomosexsuals in practice, because this need investigation. And I don't have any info on this topic. I have my own opinion, but I would keep it, so not saying empty words. 

 

My point was that spirit is not asexual. 

However, A.A.Khokhlov expressed it better than me in point 2

2. First, who said you spirit has no sexuality? Actually this question has a direct answer and a reason behind it.

Secondly you might be mixing up traditions working solely with spirit (most of modern systems are about it) and traditions working with both spirit and yuan qi (and yuan qi is the part determining sex of a person).

...

 

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

[effilang]

Effilang,

yes you are right about getting out of Taiji for immortals, however something still would be different for man and woman on high levels. Yang Shen would have specific abilities different for man and woman (saying that based on open Russian articles of WuLiupai disciples).

 

And I'm not talking about hohomosexsuals in practice, because this need investigation. And I don't have any info on this topic. I have my own opinion, but I would keep it, so not saying empty words. 

 

My point was that spirit is not asexual. 

However, A.A.Khokhlov expressed it better than me in point 2

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

 

Well I have never seen any difference in the product of practice between women and men in spiritual cultivation, both develop Yang Shen and I say this having have far more women in our school that we do men.

 

Yin and Yang collapse into Wuji. There is no woman is different from man here because there is no more man and woman.

 

Today I am a man, yet I have been a woman in my former lives, but also a man.

I have been homosexual and heterosexual in those past lives too.

How is it possible if spirit has one sex?

 

Do you think you have only been a man through all your lives?

 

Don't mistake the appearance of a spirit with its actual form.

One is just a projection the other one is Yuan Xing.

 

Again, I feel like our discrepancies here may be due to the differences in Xiantian and Houtian xiulian.

 

I think it's very interesting to try to make those connections and find out why one is different in yours, but not different in mine. Then we can draw a complete map.

[SeekerOfHealing]

 

 

So if you killed 1,000 people and then you "become" an immortal, that's it, you're off the hook?

 

I read the stories that fox-spirit who stole jing of the monk under being women attained immortality and then fly away, when he cried to the gods - they said "we can not do anything as she attained immortality so it's beyond all".

 

It would be mean that becoming immortal actually help you transcend karma as such, there are many stories as it. but it depends on the level I guess. shenxian are known to pay off debt and help others. 

[effilang]

For the heavy karma like death, there is no way. We have to come back and repay it with death to close the karmic loop and neutralize the relationship.

 

BUT

 

If during your life you focus on cultivating the subtle immortal spirit to the point that when your physical body dies you can leave Taiji, and you only have minor karma left to repay. THEN it's ok, you don't have to enter Taiji again for a new natural birth to live life as a human again. You can sign up for a duty and become a helper or a guardian or a teacher and pay your debt off that way through guiding someone in their dreams, or appearing as a vision or giving them subtle advice about life.

 

OR... OR... maybe, you can even become a Hu Fa Shen to the person/soul you didn't manage to meet during your life (ie because you hid away in a monastery) and repay the karma back through teaching if it corresponds with the weight of the karma.

 

It's not linear. There are different options.

 

The best option is to:

 

1. Cultivate our subtle spiritual body (Yang Shen) 

2. Be a part of life so that karma can unfold and we can meet our karmic soul-counterparts to collect and pay debts.

3. Generate Gong De through selfless deeds.

4. Develop our wisdom and intellect.

 

Then we can guarantee at least that when we die, if there is any heavy karma we have left to repay, like death, we can post-pone it for as long as we want and cultivate in Wuji before we have to enter Taiji again to repay the karma of a natural death.

 

It also guarantees our wisdom will allow us to go deeper into Wuji after we die, instead of getting stuck at the Yin Shen (awareness only) level and being forced to eventually reincarnate again.

 

AAK. This was in reference to what you said before.

We have the same principles in our school also.

 

Awareness + Yang Shen = Xian Shen (complete attainment)

 

If we cultivate awareness only and wisdom without a subtle body that can transport it in Wuji, then we can't go deep into the Dao, because we lack a spiritual body to transport us (Yang Shen).

 

As one of my masters says, awareness is the light that is projected by the lamp, while the lamp itself is the body, which can either be Yang Shen, Yin Shen or Human. All determine how deep we can penetrate into the Dao.

 

It is the same on earth to move our awareness around the earth so we can experience life, we need a physical body.

Edited December 13, 2016 by effilang

[SeekerOfHealing]

What you say have actually exact reflection in classic chan/daoist scriptures. 

 

 

that's why I love Xiao Yao Pai as school general, crystal clear. no butthurt but just answering everything right way.

[damdao]

I think that only the western point of view in this matter is not enough. 

We have spoke about sexual orientation and gender but so far we have not spoke about energetic interactions inside the bodies. And I think that chinese devised a whole branch for females due to these energetic interactions. 

Besides, I don't think it is right to state that neidan is about formless spirit, we begin with the body and the body is form and polarity.

[SeekerOfHealing]

I think that only the western point of view in this matter is not enough. 

We have spoke about sexual orientation and gender but so far we have not spoke about energetic interactions inside the bodies. And I think that chinese devised a whole branch for females due to these energetic interactions. 

Besides, I don't think it is right to state that neidan is about formless spirit, we begin with the body and the body is form and polarity.

 

and this is when it comes to clash between hou tian and xian tian mentality. One of my buddhist teachers said too with laughing when I asked about eating meat and she laughed "Sheep eat grass all day and eat become enlightenment?". If we want too cultivate yin and yang way then we have such struggle but when we cultivate straight for wuji things become natural and spontaneous. - from what I understand.

[effilang]

I think that only the western point of view in this matter is not enough. 

We have spoke about sexual orientation and gender but so far we have not spoke about energetic interactions inside the bodies. And I think that chinese devised a whole branch for females due to these energetic interactions. 

Besides, I don't think it is right to state that neidan is about formless spirit, we begin with the body and the body is form and polarity.

 

This is correct from one point of view, but there is another dimension to your answer which you have not introduced.

 

The process of creation is more akin to this:

Dao > [Wuji] > Yuan Shen > Yuan Qi > Yuan Jing > [Taiji] > Jing > Qi > Shen

 

So while from a human perspective, it's correct to say that we start with the body.

In reality, we know that we are not the body, so we can see that by the time we get to post-natal form (Jing), there is already quite a lot of transformation or spiraling down from the energy of the Divine Dao.

 

So the question is, after that has been said, does the spirit begin with the body or does the body begin with the spirit : )

 

The soul is at the center, always. The beginning and the end. 

 

The minimum necessary vessels for Neidan to happen are the qijing ba mai. In our tradition, in particular, not even all of them are needed, but only the first two which form right after the soul fuses with the zygote at the moment of conception; & these are Ren and Du. Again, perhaps this is in the differences between the starting point of Neidan in XT and HT. I cringe a little to call Xiantian Xiulian Neidan, due to where we start the process of spiritual cultivation, but it's a word which communicates a clear enough meaning.

 

If the sperm and egg conjoin, but the formless soul does not infuse them. Life cannot be produced.

 

If you haven't started working with the pre-natal energy then it's not Neidan yet. It is just Qigong.

If it's Neidan then it's only necessary to work with the qijing mai.

 

The physical body is for physical energy cultivation and the spiritual body is for spiritual energy cultivation, but the spirit cannot be cultivated with post Jing, Qi and Shen, which is why after actual Neidan starts, Wu Wei takes over and we simply reside, doing nothing and everything gets done.

 

If we are still doing by way of the body, then it's still You Wei, which means we have not touched Wuji yet.

If we have not touched Wuji yet, then we are still cultivating the body.

If we are still cultivating the body, then our awareness has not broken out of Taiji yet.

If our awareness has not broke out of Taiji yet, then we have not began work with the Qijing Ba Mai.

If we have not began work with the Qijing Ba Mai then we are practicing postnatal Qigong.

 

The Qijing Bamai don't just disappear after we are born.

They are there, in the background, but to access them we have to tune the frequency of our awareness to that vibration again, the vibration we have when we are still in the womb and just after we are born.

 

There is always Qi flowing through them. It's not like they suddenly open up when we begin to practice Nei Dan. IF they were not functioning we will die. Ren and Du are always working. Some people get confused when someone says, we have to open Ren and Du. They are already opened, but what changes is the state and quality of the energy that is flowing through the Qijing Bamai to produce a different effect to that of the post-natal Qi that primarily takes care of our organs and biological functions. So it is like we access a different dimension of these mai that post-natal Qi cannot touch.

 

If we set up the body initially, so that it is healthy. It is so that it will not disturb us during Neidan.

But setting up the body is not part of Neidan, maybe something like a foundational or a preliminary phase.

 

Nei Dan is about producing Da Dan.

Da Dan is formless and the basis of Yang Shen, which is also formless (Wuji).

Edited December 13, 2016 by effilang

[damdao]

(...)

 

 

I will read again your post and do a couple of comments. 

I think that we will (as good daoists) be in agreement... and in disagreement.

Partly because what you said is perfectly right from certain point of view but from others there are many hues. Even in one Pai you have several approaches, some more akin with what you said some not. I am thinking about longmen pai in particular. 

Later I will post something.

[damdao]

(...)

 

[1] So while from a human perspective, it's correct to say that we start with the body.

In reality, we know that we are not the body, so we can see that by the time we get to post-natal form (Jing), there is already quite a lot of transformation or spiraling down from the energy of the Divine Dao.

 

So the question is, after that has been said, does the spirit begin with the body or does the body begin with the spirit : )

 

The soul is at the center, always. The beginning and the end. 

 

 

(...)

 

[2] If you haven't started working with the pre-natal energy then it's not Neidan yet. It is just Qigong.

If it's Neidan then it's only necessary to work with the qijing mai.

 

[3] The physical body is for physical energy cultivation and the spiritual body is for spiritual energy cultivation, but the spirit cannot be cultivated with post Jing, Qi and Shen, which is why after actual Neidan starts, Wu Wei takes over and we simply reside, doing nothing and everything gets done.

 

If we are still doing by way of the body, then it's still You Wei, which means we have not touched Wuji yet.

If we have not touched Wuji yet, then we are still cultivating the body.

If we are still cultivating the body, then our awareness has not broken out of Taiji yet.

If our awareness has not broke out of Taiji yet, then we have not began work with the Qijing Ba Mai.

If we have not began work with the Qijing Ba Mai then we are practicing postnatal Qigong.

 

The Qijing Bamai don't just disappear after we are born.

They are there, in the background, but to access them we have to tune the frequency of our awareness to that vibration again, the vibration we have when we are still in the womb and just after we are born.

 

There is always Qi flowing through them. It's not like they suddenly open up when we begin to practice Nei Dan. IF they were not functioning we will die. Ren and Du are always working. Some people get confused when someone says, we have to open Ren and Du. They are already opened, but what changes is the state and quality of the energy that is flowing through the Qijing Bamai to produce a different effect to that of the post-natal Qi that primarily takes care of our organs and biological functions. So it is like we access a different dimension of these mai that post-natal Qi cannot touch.

 

If we set up the body initially, so that it is healthy. It is so that it will not disturb us during Neidan.

But setting up the body is not part of Neidan, maybe something like a foundational or a preliminary phase.

 

[4] Nei Dan is about producing Da Dan.

Da Dan is formless and the basis of Yang Shen, which is also formless (Wuji).

 

 

[1] I am not saying we as beings began with the body but the neidan work begins with the body. In fact, not only the neidan but the self consciousness and the need for the spiritual is awakened by the physical reality. I am mingling the Indian concept of pravritimarga and nivritimarga, going to the matter and getting out from the matter. But I think that in daoism there is something similar.

 

Through the Tao, bodies and names become apparent, and it separates the ordinary from the sagely.

Indeed, the ordinary cannot awaken of themselves. They must accumulate outer impulses and painstakingly seek the omnipres­ent pervasion underlying all.

 

Sima Chengzhen, "On the Embodiment of the Tao", The Taoist Experience, trad. Kohn, p. 22

 

So, while there a underliying "spiritual" process before we are born (and even developments and karmas from past birth if one accepts previos births) we need a physical body in order look up to the spiritual realm. Otherwise we could develop an spirtual body without need to be born in a physical body.

I understand that it may be stated that the path is trodden from the two extremes the divine and the human at the same time (the islamic saying in which God says: when a devote walks one step towards Me I walk ten towards him") but this is more akin with misticism or xing paths. In some paths (neidan, tantra hindu and buddhist, for instance) the body its energies, the emotions are used in order to achieve the goal. 

 

A question: Do you make a distinction between soul and spirit? How do you explain the formless soul?

 

[2] Well, there are schools that use post-heaven methods before pre-natal methods. Qigong as we know is very recent, so some use what is called yangshen. It is not neidan properly speaking but is not qigong either, the difference lies in the goal (and in the ideology we could say).

 

[3] This is a little difficult matter to deal with. I think that the relation between youwei and wuwei varies from school to school and inside a school between sublineages. I have some information that expreses exactly what you have said. But others maintain that you can use youwei in order or set in motion a wuwei mechanism. I have no practiced the former, so I cannot say nothing about that but I was told that it works fine. 

Secondly, set up the body is not part of neidan, you use the body as the cauldron and in order to do that you need to "forge" it so to say, in order to prevent leakeage throught holes.

Besides we must not confuse work with ming with work with the body, I have read many posts that use them interchangeably, this is more akin to modern qigong. 

 

[4] It is true that da dan is the goal of neidan, but before that you have other dan, and you have many elixirs too. None of them must be neglected, otherwise we cannot attain the dadan. In the path we have the absolute and the relative and both should be cultivated it is not right to neglect one for the other. I mean, you could do that in chan but daoism (and other systems) uses both. I am referring to the gradation of elixirs, etc. How the different elixirs are produced and their relation with organs and water wheels are explained in the book of Zhong y Lü, translated by Wong as Tao of Health...,and Holding the Yin Embracing the Yang by Wong too. 

In this sense and coming back to ladies' alchemy Elena Valussi quoting Liu Yi Ming saying that if it is indeed true that the Dao does not distinguish between male and female (that was a disciple's question) notwithstanding the use of the practice is different. More from Liu Yi Ming: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/41858-liu-i-ming-on-women-alchemy/

And in another post about nudan: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/27013-female-dan/?p=403012

For instance, in Wang Liping's Longmen lineage there is a system of nudan. 

So many school use nudan not because the highest state is male or female but because in the initial steps the body reacts differently to the changes induced by neidan practice and the refinement of sustances varies too.

Interestingly tibetan schools practice visualizations of channels differently for man and woman... but sometimes do not, as recently Tenzin Wangmyal began to use the same location for both genders. And it was on purpose.