How to cultivate without methods

[awaken]

道教有「三不問」的說法。即：第一不問道人年齡壽數，修道者追求長生不死，故忌問壽。第二不問道人的師父、師爺名諱，這是道人的忌諱，除非公安部門調查戶口或在道教叢林掛單時與知客對答，否則不要輕易詢問。若實在要問，則應說：「敢問令尊師仙姓？上下如何稱?」答時應稱：「家師仙姓某，上某下某」。第三不問修為高低，道人多謙虛，一般都會說自己修行尚淺，因為修行的境界只有自己知道，說了別人也不會了解，故不可問。
原文網址：https://read01.com/AxMngm.html

 

散修 is very often to see in China.

 

Please ask your "true" teacher about the manners.

 

No more arguing about this.

 

If your "true" teacher did not teach you the manners, please look for it on google by yourself.

 

I met many Chinese in the internet.

 

Most of them know the manners.

 

If someone do not know the manners, other Chinese people will remind him.

 

But no one remind you here.

 

Even if I already told you the truth.

 

You still do not believe.

 

If you do not believe me, please do not reply my post.

 

If you just want somebody to fight with, please find somebody else.

 

I am not interested in arguing.

[awaken]

道教有「三不問」的說法。即：第一不問道人年齡壽數，修道者追求長生不死，故忌問壽。第二不問道人的師父、師爺名諱，這是道人的忌諱，除非公安部門調查戶口或在道教叢林掛單時與知客對答，否則不要輕易詢問。若實在要問，則應說：「敢問令尊師仙姓？上下如何稱?」答時應稱：「家師仙姓某，上某下某」。第三不問修為高低，道人多謙虛，一般都會說自己修行尚淺，因為修行的境界只有自己知道，說了別人也不會了解，故不可問。

原文網址：https://read01.com/AxMngm.html

 

散修 is very often to see in China.

 

Please ask your "true" teacher about the manners.

 

No more arguing about this.

 

If your "true" teacher did not teach you the manners, please look for it on google by yourself.

 

I met many Chinese in the internet.

 

Most of them know the manners.

 

If someone do not know the manners, other Chinese people will remind him.

 

But no one remind you here.

 

Even if I already told you the truth.

 

You still do not believe.

 

If you do not believe me, please do not reply my post.

 

If you just want somebody to fight with, please find somebody else.

 

I am not interested in arguing.

 

 

 

No manner, no answer.

 

Very simple, but not easy to do, right?

Edited December 12, 2016 by awaken

[words]

manners are a cultural thing.

 

same seems to be the concept of ignoring, because these long 'i'm ignoring you' posts don't fit my understanding of what ignoring means.

[YiYinYiYang]

.

Edited August 12, 2017 by YiYinYiYang

[A.A.Khokhlov]

I carry on a 700 year old linage from taoist kung fu academy on Mt Wudang China. Asking age is rude but teacher and school that is ridiculous. Many people change school and teacher specialize in Internal alchemy or pick herbs. 

 

Now be very sure to answer .....Who  have you had for teaches and what is your formal school because you have been rude not to answer when asked several times. 

 

For sure. It should have been the first thing any genuine instructor should do introducing his teaching:

Name his/her teacher. Name his/her school.

 

What have we seen instead?

1) Attacks against WuLiupai School claming we are "fake dao, useless methods, making money" - all 3 statements are completely false and I explained why in a corresponding threads.

2) Starting with saying "school is not important". For any member of any taoist / buddhist / confucianist school - the school is like a family. And hiding the name of the school is an extremely rude violation of xiao (Filial piety). Such a person is regarded a betrayer and looses respect of anyone.

3) Unfortunately "awaken" has not answered any of the questions being asked her. Not from me not from anyone.

 

Answering them could have shown here level... But she avoided doing that. Everyone can make his/her own conclusion why.

 

 

I can personally add that she is oftenly using common qigong terms which are not being used in Neidan at all.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[Kara_mia]

Dear Awaken,

 

I am very interested in knowing more about the system you are teaching.

 

Could it be possible to know name of your teacher and school? I hope, this does not sound rude - I have a genuine interest in learning more about your school and system of practice.

[SeekerOfHealing]

Her teachings is similar to that of Satipattana, emptiness and wu wei, very interesting. I'm on awaken on QQ comunicator, very genuine person and we follow very similar ways of cultivation

 

It's kind of Xian Tian approach, rather then cultivate jing, qi, shen, you cultivate from emptiness and non-doing from that. 

Edited December 13, 2016 by SeekerOfHealing

[Wu Ming Jen]

The true teacher is the master within, the infant immortal that knows nothing of time or contrived thoughts, it is always present whether sleeping or awake.

 

We all use the same light not more in sages or less in others. A good teacher points but the true teacher must go through the gateless gate. 

 

True emptiness is not empty there is something, call it by ten thousand names.

 

Emptiness upon emptiness deep dark and vast this can be called the ghost cave.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Wu Ming Jen

[[email protected]]

But I need to tell you the daoist manners.

 

there are three kinds of questions that you should not ask in Daoist

 

一、不問壽

 

You should not ask the age.

 

二、不問師承來歷

 

You should not ask about the school or teacher.

 

三、不問程度

 

You should not ask the Doist cultivators to answer what is their cultivation.

Agree with the age - it is very personal. Though could be an object of curiosity but sure not is polite.

May be the same with the cultivation level - at least this one could be closed to public.

 

But what is the reason of being rude if you ask about a teacher?

 

Rgrds,

Ilya

[Ryan94]

On 10/12/2016 at 2:44 AM, dawei said:

 

So you know how to connect to her QQ group ?  and I'll see you there, right?  

 

Why should she teach us, if she hasn't cultivated Neidan herself (I assume)?

 

Some people are obsessed with finding a teacher. I personally don't believe in the master-student pretentious bullshit. I'm a human being, you're a human being, let's chat.

[Ryan94]

On 12/12/2016 at 1:30 AM, awaken said:

道門三不問

there are three kinds of questions that you should not ask in Daoist

 

一、不問壽

 

You should not ask the age.

 

二、不問師承來歷

 

You should not ask about the school or teacher.

 

三、不問程度

 

You should not ask the Doist cultivators to answer what is their cultivation.

 

This is convenient, no?

 

1. Can't ask age, so can't discover if they're immortal, or lying [why can't you ask one's age? It's a very benign question unless you have something to hide).

2.  If you wanted to hire someone, but could not ask which university they studied, because that would be 'bad manners', then this would be stupid, right?

3. haha, why? So the Daoists can continue playing their ridiculous games of hide and seek? Daoism is the blind, leading the blind.

If you got to say something, then speak. Otherwise, don't speak. I have no idea why Daoists love to manipulate others and catch them in their little traps and childish games. It's much better to study alone.

[thelerner]

I've had formal and informal teachers.  Both have advantages.  Many with the Western mindset found the formal teachers, in my case Japanese to be stifling and couldn't accept them.   I found them refreshing.  Sit properly, listen keenly, keep your mouth shut, and watch carefully.  No or few questions, doing.  Figure it out for yourself.  Less analysis, more practice. 

 

Respect such teachers and you can learn alot.  If it doesn't jibe with you, don't go to there class or write in there threads, beyond stating your truth and walking away.  You may lose something with this attitude because some of these prickly formal teachers, who demand strict manners are gold mines.  Follow there rules and you get good insight. 

 

Whereas the nice informal talkative 'buddy' teachers have you analyze this, consider that and you never get to the heart of the matter.  Good to be comfortable in both worlds.  And I thank Awaken for reminding us of the rules and manners in her tradition. 

[dawei]

20 hours ago, Ryan94 said:

 

Why should she teach us, if she hasn't cultivated Neidan herself (I assume)?

 

Some people are obsessed with finding a teacher. I personally don't believe in the master-student pretentious bullshit. I'm a human being, you're a human being, let's chat.

 

One truth is, there is variation among nature... obsessions are spread very wide and far.  As as "personal don't believe"...  Each should follow their heart [of Dao] and respect that others are doing it in completely opposite ways.  Some prefer the 'birds of a feather' thing and others like 'opposites attract'.   Some don't have as rigid paradigms.   That's what makes the world go round

 

 

20 hours ago, Ryan94 said:

 

This is convenient, no?

 

1. Can't ask age, so can't discover if they're immortal, or lying [why can't you ask one's age? It's a very benign question unless you have something to hide).

2.  If you wanted to hire someone, but could not ask which university they studied, because that would be 'bad manners', then this would be stupid, right?

3. haha, why? So the Daoists can continue playing their ridiculous games of hide and seek? Daoism is the blind, leading the blind.

If you got to say something, then speak. Otherwise, don't speak. I have no idea why Daoists love to manipulate others and catch them in their little traps and childish games. It's much better to study alone.

 

These are cultural issues so I would not knock it so hard.  China is the only surviving ancient culture for a reason.  And Awaken is from Taiwan and it may not completely agree with how some mainland Chinese feel.   That last comment is not to be taken in any way except that I simply have no comparison to how mainland chinese daoist feel about this but I might likely suspect it is similar.

 

I think all of them are about learning how to respect authority, which may seem odd as we talking formal daoist adepts who are supposed to be flowing with nature.    So, how is it about respecting authority?

 

I find that china has a strong mindset built on the idea of 'following' but the modern path is more militant; follow what the government says, what your teacher says, what the police says.

 

I think this comes out of the teacher-student paradigm.  Although you don't care for it, let me make a few more comments.

 

I don't know much about daoist monastery methods so I'll glean from my brief period of love of reading Zen.  When I first encountered Zen, I couldn't stop laughing and read... the stories poured through me without any end in sight.  I was mesmerized by a deep understanding, which was quite simply this:

 

Our questioning gets in the way of advancing. 

 

Now, advanced could mean several levels (physical, mental, emotional, psychological, spiritual) but it was clear in Zen, to me, that they are all really One thing but from our mental mindset it would be best to think the world spiritual as that is an 'otherness' the individual tends to feel is outside of them 'self'. 

 

Zen took a bold and dramatic path of slapping your question with a nonsensical answer, but it was only nonsensical to the questioner because they couldn't see the Oneness in the Q&A.

 

I suspect on some level, the Daoist adepts are taught to refrain from the three questions because these are 'important' or 'common' questions, which makes them a hindrance.   How is that a hindrance?

 

Ask a question to someone and see if they don't want to answer?  Does it bother you that your freedom to ask was meet with their freedom to not answer?   If it bothers you that they did not answer you, it is a hindrance question/issue.

 

I learned this issue with my first wife who could not accept my freedom to answer as I wanted.   That likely lead me to my current understanding on asian thoughts and my journey was one hell of a ride for sure... 

[dawei]

On 12/15/2016 at 8:56 AM, [email protected] said:

Agree with the age - it is very personal.

 

By this comment... you've never been to china...  it is only personal in the west.  In the east, it is a much deeper issue going on

 

Time to drop paradigms and thinking about cultures...  time to feel cultures...

 

As my chinese wife says, 'chinese don't care about asking age.... everyone asks that...  why care that as a question... just like asking about how much money you make.  THese are normal questions'.

 

Let's not impose our western brainwashing with another culture that follows a much more open way.

 

To be fair, there are lots of questions chinese will not like, but this is not my thread

[Ryan94]

thank you for your response dawei. I had lost almost all hope in this forum as I disliked how laoshi awaken kept dodging my questions, deleting my answers which called her out, and I'm portrayed as the bad guy. I corrected her on a few things (such as the true meaning of the 'red son', but she just wrote back 'you're wrong', with nothing backing that, later deleting my answer.

 

I'm a straightforward guy, nothing more. I wish no harm or ill thoughts on awaken, I just want to speak on an eye to eye level, rather than beg for a few scraps from dear master. That's not my way. Perhaps I could learn a little bit of humbling if awaken had a bit of evidence, but I found no such evidence.

 

Anyway, I don't want this to be some sort of tirade. We all have a lot to share, but sometimes I feel we should be more critical, even to the 'masters'. As the ancients say, we shall know our brothers from their works (owtte).

Edited July 5, 2017 by Ryan94

[Ryan94]

47 minutes ago, dawei said:

Our questioning gets in the way of advancing.

This could be just individual learning styles though, right? But I will keep in mind what I said. I have spoken to a few Daoist monks and I realised before that they don't like questions! They could talk from dawn to dusk, but you can never get a word in.

 

When I first went to China, I thought its culture was amazing. To be honest, nowadays I dislike it more than I like it, due to my dislike of Confucianism and its influence in society today. I heard Tang dynasty China was not like this, and modern Japan's culture is descended from Tang China, so perhaps Japan is more my style. I don't know. Though the likelihood of it is that Eastern mindsets in general are antagonistic to my personality.

 

(Actually, the more I think about it, I guess Mongolians are quite like me. Perhaps that's why awaken doesn't like me. Anyway, i'm digressing too much now).

[Stosh]

None of my business, I know, but reading the converstion, and considering it, I figure, you arent on board for this kind of thing, theres just no gain to be had if you feel a teacher needs correcting, nor should a potential student need to be disregarded because they come from another culture, when they dont feel they actually Are being improper.

The correct handling here is to answer the question , and then explain or discuss the impropriety, if there is any, which demonstrates the humility and respect which is helpful for The Teacher ! to demonstrate. 

Consider how this thread would have looked conflict free and with respect for all. 

Just leave it be , look elsewhere for a teacher you relate easily with.

Imo.

[Ryan94]

7 minutes ago, Stosh said:

None of my business, I know, but reading the converstion, and considering it, I figure, you arent on board for this kind of thing, theres just no gain to be had if you feel a teacher needs correcting, nor should a potential student need to be disregarded because they come from another culture, when they dont feel they actually Are being improper.

The correct handling here is to answer the question , and then explain or discuss the impropriety, if there is any, which demonstrates the humility and respect which is helpful for The Teacher ! to demonstrate. 

Consider how this thread would have looked conflict free and with respect for all. 

Just leave it be , look elsewhere for a teacher you relate easily with.

Imo.

I wouldn't mind listening to a teacher who knows what they're talking about, but as I said before, Daoism is the blind leading the blind. I've spoken to monks in China before and they don't know what they're talking about. I've called awaken out multiple times on her bullshit, but she had no response other than to ignore/delete my responses. How childish. Why should I learn from a person like her?

 

Show me an immortal, and I will then consider myself a student. Until then, Daoists piss and shit just like the rest of us.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Ryan94

[voidisyinyang]

43 minutes ago, Ryan94 said:

I wouldn't mind listening to a teacher who knows what they're talking about, but as I said before, Daoism is the blind leading the blind. I've spoken to monks in China before and they don't know what they're talking about. I've called awaken out multiple times on her bullshit, but she had no response other than to ignore/delete my responses. How childish. Why should I learn from a person like her?

 

Show me an immortal, and I will then consider myself a student. Until then, Daoists piss and shit just like the rest of us.

 

Check out http://qigongmaster.com - the training is 49 days cave meditation, no sleep, no food.

 

So yeah - the real training means no shitting and no pissing for 49 days nonstop and no sleep.

 

haha. You sit in full lotus meditation the whole time.

 

The person I took classes from trained in this - http://springforestqigong.com

 

So maybe you have read Awaken's personal practice forum? Regardless - China is a big country - and so there are thousands of qigong styles - and yet the real alchemy masters are quite rare.

 

So check out what I linked for you - and don't get hung up about lots of people not knowing the real deal. haha.

 

 

[Stosh]

8 hours ago, Ryan94 said:

I wouldn't mind listening to a teacher who knows what they're talking about, but as I said before, Daoism is the blind leading the blind. I've spoken to monks in China before and they don't know what they're talking about. I've called awaken out multiple times on her bullshit, but she had no response other than to ignore/delete my responses. How childish. Why should I learn from a person like her?

 

Show me an immortal, and I will then consider myself a student. Until then, Daoists piss and shit just like the rest of us.

Yes theyre human too. IMO again, just leave people to their own thing. This reluctance on your part, to do that, I imagine, is based on either disappointment, or the idea that stuff needs to be confronted all the time. That kind of Daoism isnt what you want ,fine. The easy going thing is just to walk on by. 

Even a lion will wander off , once seeing that something is inedible for it. 

That there is a lesson from the book I read. Its not complicated, but can spare you, like me, a lot of headache. , if you use it. At times I havent done that either, so I am not pontificating here. What I am saying is that there is wisdom and peace in this stuff, but its up to you whether you will partake, and of what, will you partake. 

Thats all I have on this , Good morning.

 

 

 

[Starjumper]

8 hours ago, Ryan94 said:

Show me an immortal, and I will then consider myself a student. Until then, Daoists piss and shit just like the rest of us.

 

Show you?  HA!  Go find one yourself.   An immortal wouldn't even give you the time of day.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Starjumper

[morning dew]

 

On 2016-12-9 at 11:46 AM, awaken said:

Some people pay a lot of money to learn a breath method to make chi go small circle.

 

If the circle is helpful , it is ok.

 

But the people use the methods to focus on the lower belly is a big control.

 

And too much controlling hurts mind.

 

These people's mind are used to control, but not to relax.

 

Though they have made a lot of chi, they do not get the inside piece.

 

Some people's mind even twisted to used to attack others, just for their belief is doubted.

 

It is very dangerous to learn these methods.

 

It will not make you a cultivator , but a controller.

 

 

 

The most important concepts in dan dao is 鬆靜自然relax, calm, nature.

 

Controlling chi to make it go small circle is against the rules.

 

小周天must be happen by itself, not by some skills.

 

If you use some methods to make the circle, it is very difficult to go to next stage --- open 玄關一竅

 

玄關一竅is the most important part of dan dao.

 

Without 玄關一竅, you are not a dan dao cultivator.

 

You are just a Qi-gung practicer.

 

Every dan dao cultivator should know 玄關一竅 is the main part to practice in dan dao.

 

 

 

How to open 玄關一竅 is the most important part in cultivating.

 

Is the 小周天 skill the only method to open 玄關一竅？

 

Of course not.

 

Except 小周天 method, how to open 玄關一竅？

 

That is why I come here.

 

Wu Wei is the best way to open 玄關一竅.

 

Wu Wei is always the main role in dan dao from the very ancient china.

 

Wu Wei is not my personal real dao.

 

It belongs to all human.

 

It comes from the ancient china and last for thousands of years.

 

 

 

 

Quote

學人下手之初(when learner start to cultivate)，別無他術(there is no other way)，惟有一心端坐(but sit by one mind)，萬念悉捐(give up tones of thoughts)，垂簾觀照心之下腎之上彷彿有個虛無窟子(watch in an empty hole between heart and kidney)，神神相照(.....)，息息常歸(every breathe is back)，任其一往一來(let it go and back)，但以神氣兩者凝注中宮為主(but the main part is let Shen and chi go into the middle place)。不頃刻間(soon)，神氣打成一片矣( Shen and chi are mixed)。於是聽其混混沌沌(and then listen to its Hun-tun)，不起一明覺心( without any ego Shen)，久之恍恍惚惚( after a long time, it will go into huan-hu -- between sleep and wake, half sleep and help wake)，入於無何有之鄉焉( go into the place that has nothing)。斯時也( at that time)，不知神之入氣、氣之歸神，渾然一無人無我、何地何天景象，而又非昏聵也，若使昏聵，適成枯木死灰。修士於此，當滅動心，莫滅照心，惟是智而若愚，慧而不用。於無知無覺之際，忽然一覺而動，即太極開基。須知此一覺中，自自然然，不由感附，才是我本來真覺。道家謂之玄關妙竅，只在一呼一吸之間。

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

There are so many mistakes that people are easy to make.

 

Not just philosophy chaser, there are many mistakes in cultivation.

 

We can see the point in Chang bou dun's preface, but also in Buddhist sutras.

 

To let our mind in a right direction is the most difficult part in cultivation.

 

If our mind is not in a right direction, it is impossible for us to open the middle dan tain.

 

We called it 煉心 in Chinese.

 

This is a very very important in dan dao.

 

You can say that it is the most important.

 

Our ego is very craftiness.

 

To see our real thoughts is not easy.

 

But if you do not focus on watching yourself, just focus on the methods and become a tracer of your great teacher, your mind go out 外求

 

外求 will make you keep the dao far away.

 

內求，內照，回光，is the basis of dan dao.

 

All the classics have the same concept.

 

That is why I emphasize again and again that controlling is the worst thing in dao.

 

The dao is the object that you need to show your loyalty， not schools.

 

You need to face your inside and see your true face.

 

 

 

Thanks, very interesting. I am a beginner but I agree with what I could understand.

 

I didn't like moving energy with my mind when I did qigong. It was too strong for me. It made me dizzy and spaced out and not grounded. (Baduanjin is okay, though, for me.)

 

The only thing I like to do with energy is just to sit and meditate on lower dan tien. Then, the energy moves by itself, sometimes down all the way down my legs in lines, sometimes up to the top of my head. This feels good and natural to me.

 

You mention middle dan tien and "垂簾觀照心之下腎之上彷彿有個虛無窟子(watch in an empty hole between heart and kidney)". Do you begin meditating on middle dan tien with your system or have I misunderstood what you are saying?

 

[Ryan94]

7 hours ago, Stosh said:

Yes theyre human too. IMO again, just leave people to their own thing. This reluctance on your part, to do that, I imagine, is based on either disappointment, or the idea that stuff needs to be confronted all the time. That kind of Daoism isnt what you want ,fine. The easy going thing is just to walk on by. 

Even a lion will wander off , once seeing that something is inedible for it. 

That there is a lesson from the book I read. Its not complicated, but can spare you, like me, a lot of headache. , if you use it. At times I havent done that either, so I am not pontificating here. What I am saying is that there is wisdom and peace in this stuff, but its up to you whether you will partake, and of what, will you partake. 

Thats all I have on this , Good morning.

 

 

 

No. As I said before, I'm a straight-forward guy, so i call out bullshit when I see it.

 

And I'm just bemused why everyone is so in love with awaken when she shares nothing of interest. Just platitudes, guesses, statements with no sources, and is antagonistic to anyone who doesn't take this random Chinese woman's word as gospel.

 

Awaken, stop being a coward, running away from my questions and ignoring my challenges, or I'll continue to assume your full of it. Anyway, i'm done.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Ryan94

[Kar3n]

1 hour ago, Ryan94 said:

No. As I said before, I'm a straight-forward guy, so i call out bullshit when I see it.

 

And I'm just bemused why everyone is so in love with awaken when she shares nothing of interest. Just platitudes, guesses, statements with no sources, and is antagonistic to anyone who doesn't take this random Chinese woman's word as gospel.

 

Awaken, stop being a coward, running away from my questions and ignoring my challenges, or I'll continue to assume your full of it. Anyway, i'm done.

It is a good idea for you to be done. This is your second warning for insulting awaken. Please take the time to read the pinned posts here to giver yourself a refresher on the expectation of civility on these forums. The next warning will be met with an interruption of your membership on TDB.

 

Kar3n

TDB Mod Team

[Ryan94]

1 minute ago, Kar3n said:

It is a good idea for you to be done. This is your second warning for insulting awaken. Please take the time to read the pinned posts here to giver yourself a refresher on the expectation of civility on these forums. The next warning will be met with an interruption of your membership on TDB.

 

Kar3n

TDB Mod Team

How is that insulting her? I said nothing overly insulting. I reject that 'warning'.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Ryan94