Yuxianpai & WuLiupai Tradition Doctrine

[A.A.Khokhlov]

We will start with answering several questions I got so far.

 

Well, my understanding, which comes from reading Daoists texts including but not limited to the Wu-Liu school, is that what you mean by "yangshen is not a subtle body" is that the achievement of yangshen is marked by being able to manifest a totally physical, substantial body, i.e., something that is not subtle at all. This leads me to some questions:

 

-Is my understanding correct?

-If I'm not correct, can you please tell me where I am wrong, and also let me know which book and chapter I should consult to learn more about this issue?

-In your opinion, are there specific signs of this type of accomplishment that students should look for and expect to see when they are assessing teachers?

-From your standpoint, what is specifically disadvantageous to a person who gets the kind of results that Effi describes?

 

Yes, it is correct. This body would be still subtle - of pure yang, but might be manifested in real world physically. Do you remember of that story from Zhang Boduan where taoist and buddhist flied with their spirit to a far away mountain and taoist returned back with a flower from that mountain while buddhist's hands were empty?

 

As such a teacher's level is much higher than student's, student has no way to assess him. However in Taoism there is a physical demonstration on yangshen abilities which can be shown by high-level teacher. It is very uncommon for the beginners to be honoured by such a demonstration.

 

I can't say at the moment anything about any results unspecific for taoism. This needs investigation.

 

A.A.Khokhlov,

 

Helllo, 

 

I got some questions...

 

 

1. What is history of wu Liu Pai?

2. Who is the head of the sect?

3. What are some of the names of the practices your sect teaches?

4. Do you accept Bai Shee?

5. Do you have anyone in  the lineage that has attained actual immortality?

6. What is the sect's view on rainbow body?

.7 Does the sect teach other things outside of alchemy like healing ex acupuncture? 

 

These are some starting questions for now thank you in advance.

 

You can read about the hisory of WuLiupai School here and here. WuLiupai School is currently not accepting Western students so there is no much sense in discussing it.

 

Most of your questions could be answered "yes". Our School has contacts with representatives of Tibetian buddhism and yes there are some intersections. But we are mostly focused on studying Taoism and can't say you definitely about Tibetian concepts.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Dear Aleksey!

 

You wrote:

One of the reasons is that WuLiupai transmission principles doesn't suit modern Western culture well. I.e. it would be extremely hard for people to fulfil the requirements for students. This limitation would have been really pity but later our WuLiupai Teachers in China inroduced us to Patriarch of Yuxianpai School which is a real treasure for the modern world and is much more easier to start practice. It is what we teach our Western students now.

 

But this statement would also be true for russian students.

With wuliupai, would there be exceptions for western students if they would be very serious in their training?

 

(also wrote you a personal message)

best

Michael

 

In terms of culture from our experience Russia is indeed located between China and the West. So it is quite far away from the East but not completely at the West yet. Probably this is the reason.

 

(But you are right becoming a true WuLiupai student is not an easy task for Russian as well.)

 

I can't completely exclude such possibility, it is up to our Teachers. As it being said in China:

If you have fate - you will meet [with a Teacher] over 1000 li, if you don't - staying on one crossroad you wouldn't recognize each other.

 

By the way this saying once again links progressing in Taoism with finding a true Teacher.

 

If you want to practice Traditional Neidan I suggest you to start with Yuxianpai methods. Yuxianpai School is self-sufficient in terms of Neidan System, most of the students will find there everything they want.

 

Yes I remember your request, please don't worry we will process it soon.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

P.S. So far we don't have a single WuLiupai student from the West. That makes any claims about "WuLiupai money" absolutely nonsence.

Edited December 9, 2016 by A.A.Khokhlov

[SeekerOfHealing]

You should make public teachings for 3-5 years old neidan, which single yang sometimes teaches. It would be very useful for many people. 

[A.A.Khokhlov]

You should make public teachings for 3-5 years old neidan, which single yang sometimes teaches. It would be very useful for many people. 

 

Not sure what you are talking about. But we will do whatever we can to advance people in Taoism not breaking our Teachers' directives.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Hello A.A.Khokhlov,

 

Thank you for joining the forum and sharing your ideas with us. It has been really refreshing to see a represenative of Wu Liu Pai on the Tao Bums that carries himself with respect and integrity, and I appreciate you taking your time to reply to everyone's questions in such a way as to trigger productive debates and stimulate thinking.

 

One of your posts stood out to me as It juxtaposes very contrastingly with Xiantian practice in my school. While I appreciate and understand the necessity for this approach in Houtian, how do you reconcile this with the fact that almost all masters were buried or cremated?

 

Is it necessary to escape physical death to become an immortal?

 

What is the correlation between escaping physical death and spiritual immortality?

Isn't life part of the process of cultivation itself which goes on even when immortality is being cultivated.

Why do we have to escape at all? What is there to escape from?

 

In houtian xiulian, it seems that one of the main purposes of actively maintaining and attempting to maximize ones physical lifespan is a facility employed with the understanding that the cultivation of the subtle immortal spirit (Yang Shen) to the point of sufficient maturity, can be a very lengthy task, often decorated with many failures and re-tries, therefore it would behoove one to maintain the basis for this transformation healthy as long as is necessary for the Yang spirit to mature so that it can be consciously operated.

 

Do you think that it's possible this is the purpose of all the extensive physical regiments in houtian, as opposed to turning the material body into the immaterial? Didn't Zhang Boduan say somewhere that the material cannot beget the immaterial, making a differentiation between those that cultivate the impermanent post natal essence and those that trigger the cultivation of the prenatal essence, which leads to true attainment?

 

In my experience physical matter born from Taichi, governed by the laws of Yin and Yang itself; such as a human beings that are formed of the 5 elements, cannot pass through the Xuan Guan and enter Wuji. Even the highest post natal energy of Shen in the human body cannot pass through Xuan Guan, which is why we must detach from the 5 thieves. Only the immaterial spirits residing in/out of the body can do this - OR, do you maintain that the physical mass and tissues of the body are transformed into immortalized spiritual essence that merge with our developing Yang Shen, the essence of which both come together to form one being?

 

Again if this is the standard for transformation in spiritual Daoism, then how come so many of the old masters were buried and cremated?

 

Even if we look at Daoist schools today. Whose school had Benjamin Button for a master and if they could live without aging or sickness, why didn't they simply continue to teach to benefit humanity?

 

Most immortals spend a vast majority of their time (they are beyond spacetime) in helping other beings and humans. Why throw away the convenience of a life born on earth, where the body has been cultivated to a state where it cannot die or age or feel sickness, and they have spiritual powers and continue to use it to help people, rather than to abandon a young and vibrant body of 90 years of age, exit Taichi, enter Wuji and then proceed to guide people from that dimension where even vibrating down from the absolute to enter the relative realm on Earth burns off Gong De?

It seems like a ridiculously inefficient decision from someone who at that level should be incredibly wise and filled with a desire to help other beings awaken, as is evidenced by the activity of immortals. What better place to do it that on earth? The human condition is perfect for it. Yet, somehow we see quite the opposite with most of masters dying quite early.

 

Zhang Daoling died around 122, but today there are some people who have lived to that age also that probably have never heard of Daoism. Legend says he turned into fairy dust and leaped up into the heavens with his body disappearing, but as you know, legend says that legend says that legend says. There is no proof. 

 

If I am not mistaken Zhang Boduan also died before he even reached 100.

 

Furthermore if there are still so many authentic Daoist schools who carry on the TRUE teachings as many of them claim and have been doing so for 100s or thousands of years, then where are their masters that were never burried or their students that followed the true way of the immortals and never died? There are many Daoist schools and temples today, where can we find these guys that do not age and die like everybody else, even when they are the official representatives of their ancient lineages?

 

I'd love to know what you think of these discrepancies between cultivating the material body as a means of reaching the spirit vs cultivating the spirit directly and allowing the physical body to die in Taiji and return to the earth following nature.

 

In my tradition we focus almost fully on the cultivation of the immaterial spirit, because in our experience this is the only type of energy that can penetrate into Wuji and is suitable to form a whole with our awareness, so that  both can exist as one vehicle: Awareness + Spiritual Body. Having said that, we also we also practice charity, live in society so we can develop our intellect and basic wisdom and perform humanitarian activities and contribute to society to help the lives of others.

 

I'm curious to know what you think.

 

 

I've highlighted questions in your message with blue, please see my answers below.

 

1. Thank you. I greatly appreciate forum members' attention.

2. If we understand why people die and know what effect alchemy does to human body - then yes. It is not an ultimate goal but it is necessary to pass this stage on the way of perfection. 

3. Right, human body is of material substance and is of Taiji world. When shenxian practice the last stage - 9 years facing a wall  he purifies the body completely. So the body is not being lost but being once again finally united with shenxian's yangshen.

4. If you asking about giving immortality secret to anyone - it is once again a question of a kid with nuclear weapon in his/her hand. It would simply turn our world to hell immediately as every single person needs to pass through perfection process and not just gain unlimited power to become the demon.

If your question is about teaching worthy students - it happens. Wu Chongxu was about 200 years old when he was teaching Liu Huayang. There is a number of masters in Taoist history who were taught by Laozi. And so on.

 

5. This one refers to the part I highlighted with red.

Man knowing a secret of immortality in a society is like a usual man with holding bag full of gold in room fool of gangsers. That is why Taoist Patriarchs have always hidden in mountains and almost never accepted invitations from Chinese rulers.

 

Date of birth without date of death - repeatedly for lot of Taoists would draw pretty much of unwanted attention and shouldn't be considered as a wise behavior.

 

Please ask your further questions in this thread, I may miss something in other discussions.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[effilang]

I've highlighted questions in your message with blue, please see my answers below.

 

1. Thank you. I greatly appreciate forum members' attention.

2. If we understand why people die and know what effect alchemy does to human body - then yes. It is not an ultimate goal but it is necessary to pass this stage on the way of perfection. 

3. Right, human body is of material substance and is of Taiji world. When shenxian practice the last stage - 9 years facing a wall  he purifies the body completely. So the body is not being lost but being once again finally united with shenxian's yangshen.

 

4. If you asking about giving immortality secret to anyone - it is once again a question of a kid with nuclear weapon in his/her hand. It would simply turn our world to hell immediately as every single person needs to pass through perfection process and not just gain unlimited power to become the demon.

If your question is about teaching worthy students - it happens. Wu Chongxu was about 200 years old when he was teaching Liu Huayang. There is a number of masters in Taoist history who were taught by Laozi. And so on.

 

5. This one refers to the part I highlighted with red.

Man knowing a secret of immortality in a society is like a usual man with holding bag full of gold in room fool of gangsers. That is why Taoist Patriarchs have always hidden in mountains and almost never accepted invitations from Chinese rulers.

 

Date of birth without date of death - repeatedly for lot of Taoists would draw pretty much of unwanted attention and shouldn't be considered as a wise behavior.

 

Please ask your further questions in this thread, I may miss something in other discussions.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

Hi,

 

Thanks for answering, however you left out the heart of my post, which is where I really wanted to know your thoughts:

 

Here you said:

 

Right, human body is of material substance and is of Taiji world. When shenxian practice the last stage - 9 years facing a wall  he purifies the body completely. So the body is not being lost but being once again finally united with shenxian's yangshen.

 

Theoretically, I can "imagine" it, but I have yet to see any practitioner transform their physical tissues into primordial Qi to become emptiness, and if this is really a genuine part of the later processes of Neidan, then why haven't we seen it even though we have so many lineage holders alive today who follow the old way and why do so many Daoist texts teach us that post-natal Qi cannot be converted to pre-natal Qi?

 

Here is the heart of my question:

 

In houtian xiulian, it seems that one of the main purposes of actively maintaining and attempting to maximize ones physical lifespan is a facility employed with the understanding that the cultivation of the subtle immortal spirit (Yang Shen) to the point of sufficient maturity, can be a very lengthy task, often decorated with many failures and re-tries, therefore it would behoove one to maintain the basis for this transformation healthy as long as is necessary for the Yang spirit to mature so that it can be consciously operated.

 

Do you think that it's possible this is the purpose of all the extensive physical regiments in houtian, as opposed to turning the material body into the immaterial? Didn't Zhang Boduan say somewhere that the material cannot beget the immaterial, making a differentiation between those that cultivate the impermanent post natal essence and those that trigger the cultivation of the prenatal essence, which leads to true attainment?

 

Zhang Daoling died around 122, but today there are some people who have lived to that age also that probably have never heard of Daoism. Legend says he turned into fairy dust and leaped up into the heavens with his body disappearing, but as you know, legend says that legend says that legend says. There is no proof. 

 

If I am not mistaken Zhang Boduan also died before he even reached 100.

 

Furthermore if there are still so many authentic Daoist schools who carry on the TRUE teachings as many of them claim and have been doing so for 100s or thousands of years, then where are their masters that were never burried or their students that followed the true way of the immortals and never died? There are many Daoist schools and temples today, where can we find these guys that do not age and die like everybody else, even when they are the official representatives of their ancient lineages?

 

As a convenient example, your school (please correct me if I'm wrong) has been transmitting it's methods which it claims are true for over 500 years now? .

 

A human life is on average around 80 years, you must have had many students since then. Can we assume something like 50 students every 100 years as a safe example?

Then were looking at around 250 students practicing students.

 

Of all these people and I appreciate its a rough figure (im speculating just to vaguely illustrate my point) - Is there any evidence of anyone actually transforming their body into spiritual energy and disappearing from the face of the earth or is it that everyone of the students and masters was buried or cremated like a normal person? - AND if this is so, then doesn't it imply that nobody from your school has achieved that level yet?

 

I am not implying that they were just any typical person, I am sure that their practice achieved them results beyond what most people outside of the xianshu were likely to achieve, but never the less, spiritual cultivation is a gradual process in almost every area. Nothing really ever just suddenly manifests. Usually, there is a process before hand that builds up or leads to a manifestation. My point is that If what you're saying is true, then I wouldn't expect people to suddenly disappear, but at the same time I would expect that at least there would be a gradual transition of the physical tissues from visible to invisible and during that time their practicing brothers and sisters of the Dao would be able to observe that.

 

Wuliu Pai is not the only Daoist school that believes this idea, yet all the masters we know of that we can see and feel and that are alive or at least have records of their lives were all buried and cremated.

 

How is it so? This is the discrepancy I was speaking of, and as a practitioner of one such school who believes in this form of transformation I want to know what you think about it.

 

I personally do not know any immortal that was not buried or one that managed to transform impermanent energy of Taiji into the divine energy of the Dao. Isn't this the basis of differentiation between Post-Natal energy cultivation and Pre-Natal energy cultivation, so that people do not mislead themselves by trying to convert the body into the spirit?

 

If we can convert physical energy from Taiji into spiritual energy that can exist in Wuji, couldn't we assume that scientists would one day invent a method to achieve immortality by the use of technology or even some method to open the Xuan Guan?

 

So again I'm wondering, how is it that the physical energy is converted into spiritual energy, when one is post celestial and the other is pre-celestial?

 

Those are my questions : )

Edited December 10, 2016 by effilang

[awaken]

It is impossible to turn Post-chi into pre-heaven chi.

 

Post-chi clean our body from outside to inside.

 

And then the middle Mai will open by itself.

 

After middle Mai is opened, we can get into emptiness.

 

In the emptiness, pre-heaven chi comes by itself.

 

The pre-heaven chi will change by itself.

 

We do not need to do anything.

 

If we "want" to do anything, the ego-Shen will wake up.

 

Then we will leave the emptiness.

 

Because ego-Shen belongs to Ying.

 

If ego-Shen wake up, Ying chi appears by itself.

 

If Ying chi show up, middle mail close by itself.

 

Some people see many kinds of light by using methods.

 

They think these lights belongs to pre-heaven chi.

 

But it is not.

 

I have seen all these two different lights.

 

They are different very much.

 

But it is very difficult to tell the one who has never seen both before.

 

They will misunderstand badly.

 

So the only way I can do is teach them how to open the emptiness by themselves.

 

And they can see both by themselves.

 

If they see both by themselves, they will know what is the difference between pre-heaven chi and post-heaven chi.

[grassmountiansage]

Hi,

 

Thanks for answering, however you left out the heart of my post, which is where I really wanted to know your thoughts:

 

Here you said:

 

 

Theoretically, I can "imagine" it, but I have yet to see any practitioner transform their physical tissues into primordial Qi to become emptiness, and if this is really a genuine part of the later processes of Neidan, then why haven't we seen it even though we have so many lineage holders alive today who follow the old way and why do so many Daoist texts teach us that post-natal Qi cannot be converted to pre-natal Qi?

 

Here is the heart of my question:

 

 

As a convenient example, your school (please correct me if I'm wrong) has been transmitting it's methods which it claims are true for over 500 years now? .

 

A human life is on average around 80 years, you must have had many students since then. Can we assume something like 50 students every 100 years as a safe example?

Then were looking at around 250 students practicing students.

 

Of all these people and I appreciate its a rough figure (im speculating just to vaguely illustrate my point) - Is there any evidence of anyone actually transforming their body into spiritual energy and disappearing from the face of the earth or is it that everyone of the students and masters was buried or cremated like a normal person?

 

I am not implying that they were just any typical person, I am sure that their practice achieved them results beyond what most people outside of the xianshu were likely to achieve, but never the less, spiritual cultivation is a gradual process in almost every area. Nothing really ever just suddenly manifests. Usually, there is a process before hand that builds up or leads to a manifestation. My point is that If what you're saying is true, then I wouldn't expect people to suddenly disappear, but at the same time I would expect that at least there would be a gradual transition of the physical tissues from visible to invisible and during that time their practicing brothers and sisters of the Dao would be able to observe that.

 

Wuliu Pai is not the only Daoist school that believes this idea, yet all the masters we know of that we can see and feel and that are alive or at least have records of their lives were all buried and cremated.

 

How is it so? This is the discrepancy I was speaking of, and as a practitioner of one such school who believes in this form of transformation I want to know what you think about it.

 

I personally do not know any immortal that was not buried or one that managed to transform impermanent energy of Taiji into the divine energy of the Dao. Isn't this the basis of differentiation between Post-Natal energy cultivation and Pre-Natal energy cultivation, so that people do not mislead themselves by trying to convert the body into the spirit?

 

If we can convert physical energy from Taiji into spiritual energy that can exist in Wuji, couldn't we assume that scientists would one day invent a method to achieve immortality by the use of technology or even some method to open the Xuan Guan?

 

So again I'm wondering, how is it that the physical energy is converted into spiritual energy, when one is post celestial and the other is pre-celestial?

 

Those are my questions : )

 

Ya know there was a taoist on here a long time ago claiming that he and his students attaned this. I talked with this man for yers and exchanged notes he was a bit controversal but he had pics of what he was talking about. He called this state golden dragon body.

 

 

[alchemist]

It is impossible to turn Post-chi into pre-heaven chi.

 

Post-chi clean our body from outside to inside.

 

And then the middle Mai will open by itself.

 

After middle Mai is opened, we can get into emptiness.

 

In the emptiness, pre-heaven chi comes by itself.

 

The pre-heaven chi will change by itself.

 

We do not need to do anything.

 

If we "want" to do anything, the ego-Shen will wake up.

 

Then we will leave the emptiness.

 

Because ego-Shen belongs to Ying.

 

If ego-Shen wake up, Ying chi appears by itself.

 

If Ying chi show up, middle mail close by itself.

 

Some people see many kinds of light by using methods.

 

They think these lights belongs to pre-heaven chi.

 

But it is not.

 

I have seen all these two different lights.

 

They are different very much.

 

But it is very difficult to tell the one who has never seen both before.

 

They will misunderstand badly.

 

So the only way I can do is teach them how to open the emptiness by themselves.

 

And they can see both by themselves.

 

If they see both by themselves, they will know what is the difference between pre-heaven chi and post-heaven chi.

That's completely irrelevant to the current discussion. Have you even read it?

[grassmountiansage]

Ya know there was a taoist on here a long time ago claiming that he and his students attaned this. I talked with this man for yers and exchanged notes he was a bit controversal but he had pics of what he was talking about. He called this state golden dragon body.

 

 

 

but later I learned I had th same type of training in my own lineage.

[effilang]

@grassmountain

 

I appreciate what you're saying, but I work in design and post-production and also do photography in my spare time - and can reproduce these images in around 30 minutes on my own. You just need to take two photographs: one with the person there and one without, then play with the first a little bit.

 

Here is a funny one of my hand. Maybe I can say that it's a little bit the essence of my physical body turning into Yang Shen?

 

 

If the person in the photograph was projecting his Yang Shen, then there would be a physical body and next to that Yang Shen, because they are not one and the same. One is the indestructible immortal body while the other is the impermanent physical body. So it would be minimum two entities and the physical body itself would not be distorted.

 

If the person in the photograph has absorbed his physical body completely and transformed post-natal Qi into pre-natal Qi.................  .................. then he probably wouldn't be spending his time in this realm and using his energy to sustain a physical state without VERY good reason.

 

What I mean is that the native frequency of Yang Shen naturally resides in Wuji and is manifested as Kong. To vibrate low enough to enter Taiji and fit within the 400-700 nanometer band of visible light so the eyes can catch it and lower yet so the hands of another person can feel it, and THEN to sustain that state indefinitely, would be an absolute waste of energy.

 

Someone who had such a speculative level of attainment and transmuted his physical essence into primordial Qi, would not need to eat, sleep, drink, excrete waste matter or even breathe Qi into their body (Qi as in air in this case). Do you know if the guy you spoke to had to do any of this?

 

Maybe his physical body was behind the camera taking the picture while his Yang Shen projection was the subject of the photo in front of the camera? We can speculate a lot, but where are the real accounts.

 

Here is a picture of our Shifu performing an initiation over 20 years ago while photoshop was still in its infancy. I don't think you could even UNDO back then because RAM was so low.

 

 

You can see the camera has captured a manifestation of the projection of his spiritual energy, but can we be sure? It's just a photo : ) 

 

We must know the truth ourselves and experience it. I have and I know that immortals' physical bodies are buried just like any human. It is post-natal Jing, Qi and Shen that cannot be converted into Pre-natal Dao.

 

Post San Bao is one thing Pre San Bao is another thing and Yang Shen is also another thing which we must "create". The physical body is just a vessel and a medium for transformation. It is like the beaker in the laboratory, you can mix the chemicals inside to create something, but that something doesn't absorb the glass of the beaker, we just wash the beaker and put it to dry or we can recycle the glass so that it can be used for something else like a wine glass.

 

We just contribute the body back to earth and return back to nature what is left of what we have eaten, breathed and drank.

Edited December 10, 2016 by effilang

[effilang]

That's completely irrelevant to the current discussion. Have you even read it?

 

I think that the inability of post-heaven Qi (Taiji) to transform into pre-heaven Qi (Wuji) should be relevant in every Daoist discussion concerning Xianshu and Xiudao. Many old sages spent their lives underlining this point over and over with the aim of preventing people from practicing methods that kept them perpetually trapped in Taiji.

[grassmountiansage]

@grassmountain

 

I appreciate what you're saying, but I work in design and post-production and also do photography in my spare time - and can reproduce these images in around 30 minutes on my own. You just need to take two photographs: one with the person there and one without, then play with the first a little bit.

 

Here is a funny one of my hand. Maybe I can say that it's a little bit the essence of my physical body turning into Yang Shen?

 

hand.jpg

 

If the person in the photograph was projecting his Yang Shen, then there would be a physical body and next to that Yang Shen, because they are not one and the same. One is the indestructible immortal body while the other is the impermanent physical body. So it would be minimum two entities and the physical body itself would not be distorted.

 

If the person in the photograph has absorbed his physical body completely and transformed post-natal Qi into pre-natal Qi.................  .................. then he probably wouldn't be spending his time in this realm and using his energy to sustain a physical state.

 

What I mean is that the native frequency of Yang Shen naturally resides in Wuji and is manifested as Kong. To vibrate low enough to enter Taiji and fit within the 400-700 nanometer band of visible light so the eyes can catch it and lower yet so the hands of another person can feel it, and THEN to sustain that state indefinitely, would be an absolute waste of energy.

 

Someone who had such a speculative level of attainment and transmuted his physical essence into primordial Qi, would not need to eat, sleep, drink, excrete waste matter or even breathe Qi into their body (Qi as in air in this case). Do you know if the guy you spoke to had to do any of this?

 

Maybe his physical body was behind the camera taking the picture while his Yang Shen projection was the subject of the photo in front of the camera? We can speculate a lot, but where are the real accounts.

 

Here's is a picture of our Shifu performing an initiation over 20 years ago while photoshop was still in its infancy. I don't think you could even UNDO back then because RAM was so low.

 

sifu.jpg

 

You can see the camera has captured a manifestation of the projection of his spiritual energy, but can we be sure? It's just a photo : ) 

 

We must know the truth ourselves and experience it. I have and I know that immortals' physical bodies are buried just like any human. It is post-natal Jing, Qi and Shen that cannot be converted into Pre-natal Dao.

 

Post San Bao is one thing Pre San Bao is another thing and Yang Shen is also another thing which we must "create". The physical body is just a vessel and a medium for transformation. It is like the beaker in the laboratory, you can mix the chemicals inside to create something, but that something doesn't absorb the glass of the beaker. We just contribute the body back to earth and return back to nature what is left of what we have eaten, breathed and drank.

 

Well that is what he is saying that he has fully transformed his body into primordial qi.

 

His website.  primordialalchemist.com

 

Yes ive had many indepth conversations with him as I am the head of my lineage

 

[A.A.Khokhlov]

It is impossible to turn Post-chi into pre-heaven chi.

 

Post-chi clean our body from outside to inside.

 

And then the middle Mai will open by itself.

 

After middle Mai is opened, we can get into emptiness.

 

In the emptiness, pre-heaven chi comes by itself.

 

Completely wrong.

 

 

Patriarch Zhang Ziyang, Bamaijing:

 

A human has 8 channels, all of them belong to yinshen. They are closed and do not open. Only Shenxians (immortals) by means of Yangqi open them and because of it are able to attain Dao. Gathering Yangqi primarily starts at Yinqiao channel... Physicians do not know of its existence...

 

 

Yinqiao channel is not a "middle mai". The last sentence ("Physicians...") means this Yinqiao is not from common "extraordinary channels" list.

Why? Take a look at Bamaijing, Patriarch Zhang describes its location.

 

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[effilang]

@grassmountainsage

 

I'm familiar with Lama Thunderbolt, he was quite the thing on here back in the day.

Do you believe that when Max dies he will not be buried like everyone else?

 

If he is buried or cremated (very likely), what happens to the whole theory of transforming the physical tissues?

Does he still eat, drink, breathe and excrete? How can it be if he has become a manifestation of primordial Qi?

 

What of his Masters through which he learned this method, did they not die and get buried?

 

Let's wait and see what happens when he dies, then we can resume the investigation

Edited December 10, 2016 by effilang

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Hi,

 

Thanks for answering, however you left out the heart of my post, which is where I really wanted to know your thoughts...

 

Dear effilang,

I will find time and answer your questions. BTW as you've asked your questions in http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42694-checking-liu-huayang thread - what is your opinion on that topic?

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[grassmountiansage]

@grassmountainsage

 

I'm familiar with Lama Thunderbolt, he was quite the thing on here back in the day.

Do you believe that when Max dies he will not be buried like everyone else?

 

If he is buried or cremated (very likely), what happens to the whole theory of transforming the physical tissues.

Does he still eat, drink, breathe and excrete? How can it be if he has become a manifestation of primordial Qi?

 

Let's wait and see what happens when he dies, then we can resume the investigation

 

I cant speak for another man nor his final place of being.

 

Dematerializing and walking thru walls is something he and some of his students can do...

 

Which is not uncommon of hearing of practitioners mention this when they reach that level.

 

Very cool account of attaining rainbow body.

 

 

“I felt myself become lightweight, and felt myself covered by light. I became transparent, and saw red, white, purple and golden light, dazzling and splendid. There was a red lotus emitting bright light and I felt the energy channeling down inside of me. I was completely mesmerized in the wonderful and serene divinity of Rainbow Body. All my worries, attachment and ignorance were gone through this incredible empowerment of Rainbow Light Supreme Dharma. My wisdom blossomed, and my understanding of Buddhist teaching was elevated to a much higher level…I’m so grateful that Holy Master Ziguang Shang Shi taught us this supreme Dharama!”

 

http://www.guanghuanmizong.info/rainbow-body-esoteric-practice/

 

Then this 

 

A tibetan buddhist monk talking about how he attained this from the great perfection dharma of his lineage.

http://xuanfa.net/articles/i-finally-received-the-highest-buddha-dharma-the-xian-liang-great-perfection-dharma-initiation/

 

 

[effilang]

Dear effilang,

I will find time and answer your questions. BTW as you've asked your questions in http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42694-checking-liu-huayang thread - what is your opinion on that topic?

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

Thank you Mr Khokhlov,

 

I think there is too much talking and not enough walking in the thread.

You guys have spent posts upon posts discussing other peoples training diaries.

 

That is all that a book is, just someones thoughts and experiences written on a piece of paper.

We can never know it for real, and that many people follow the book does not make it evidence of truth, just like the bible : )

 

If the methods are so clearly explained and the information in the books is true, then anyone with mediocre ability should be able to attain that level. We should be able to see and know people that are not getting buried and cremated but disappear into the Dao, at least in the past century but we have no verifiable proof.

 

I am not reducing the importance of educating ones-self about things, theory is also important to some extent, but I strongly believe that one's school should be able to demonstrate their claims. We live in the 21st century now, nobody can use the argument anymore that the don't want to backup their claims, because demonstrating it would be so fantastical that people couldn't handle it or they would get persecuted or thrown in jail for superstition. Even in China where you could get thrown in jail for superstitious practices, I guarantee you that they cannot deny empirical evidence. It is just that when most schools and masters are called out, they are fall short of being able to offer any proof of their practices and are exposed as charlatans.

 

I don't like to get involved in these discussions about the old master's opinions and personal experiences, because our interpretation is relative to their reality, but never our own reality which we must cultivate.

 

In our school if we ever study any book, our aim is not to follow, but to lead ourselves to develop the wisdom those masters themselves had that allowed them to generate those experiences. Once we get those experiences then we can determine if there was truth in what they said, but even then you are just one person. It is only one proof and on it's own it cannot stand, but if 500 or 1000 or 10,000 people get the same result and make the same claims - then even the scientific community will be prompted to investigate it, because obviously "something" is going on beyond subjective reality.

 

I respect everyone's dedication to what they deem valuable, because that fire comes from the spirit, but the object of that dedication does not always have the same value for me.

 

I can answer most of the questions in the thread that both sides are asking each other, but I prefer not to lock myself in there, because we are just dancing around the old master's words. I would prefer to challenge the texts and beliefs when possible and help to evolve things.

 

Philosophy is stagnating Daoism and preventing it from evolving. If we look at any of the old sages, they were pioneers, they invented, they created, they introduced, they innovated. After Zhang Daoling instituted religious Daoism, ceremony and literature began to freeze people within the books and chain their mind from moving forward.

 

Nature is always transforming. In my experience the Celesial realm and the immortals have made some absolutely massive changes in the way they operate over the years in order to adapt to the way human society and our beliefs and consciousness have evolved. They never just stick to one way. They have adapted a lot to us in incredible ways, which when they are revealed one day will immediately break some aspects of many Daoist school's belief systems.

 

My opinion, Sir, is that the very fact that we have people coming together and sharing their minds is in itself amazing, but I just wish there would be less hostility between people, and more of an adventurous and playful nature. Just like children playing in the sand together : )

 

The Daoists were the SCIENTISTS of antiquity. Unsubstantiated belief would never fly. There had to be evidence, something that could be reproduced in others, regardless of their way of life, their job, their religion, their race or their nationality.

 

If it cannot be reproduced in others regardless of their constitution, then it is relative. If it is relative then it is not the highest Dao.

[effilang]

I cant speak for another man nor his final place of being.

 

Dematerializing and walking thru walls is something he and some of his students can do...

 

Which is not uncommon of hearing of practitioners mention this when they reach that level.

 

Very cool account of attaining rainbow body.

 

 

“I felt myself become lightweight, and felt myself covered by light. I became transparent, and saw red, white, purple and golden light, dazzling and splendid. There was a red lotus emitting bright light and I felt the energy channeling down inside of me. I was completely mesmerized in the wonderful and serene divinity of Rainbow Body. All my worries, attachment and ignorance were gone through this incredible empowerment of Rainbow Light Supreme Dharma. My wisdom blossomed, and my understanding of Buddhist teaching was elevated to a much higher level…I’m so grateful that Holy Master Ziguang Shang Shi taught us this supreme Dharama!”

 

http://www.guanghuanmizong.info/rainbow-body-esoteric-practice/

 

Then this 

 

A tibetan buddhist monk talking about how he attained this from the great perfection dharma of his lineage.

http://xuanfa.net/articles/i-finally-received-the-highest-buddha-dharma-the-xian-liang-great-perfection-dharma-initiation/

 

It all looks really good, but let's not be blind believers, ok?

Let's use some logic and common sense instead. Some basic wisdom : )

 

Let's ask in our minds. OK. So they claim these results. Surely this system did not appear for the first time in this generation, right? Can we go back one generation to look at their master. Did he get buried or did he disappear into the Dao?

 

How about we go back, 2 or 3 or 4 generations to look at their master's masters, what about them?

Buried or turned into the Rainbow Body?

 

Then after we ask the question we must investigate it.

If you believe it then maybe you can call them or e-mail them to ask them about it, so we can be sure : )

Edited December 10, 2016 by effilang

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Thank you Mr Khokhlov,

 

I think there is too much talking and not enough walking in the thread.

You guys have spent posts upon posts discussing other peoples training diaries...

 

Thank you for your answer. However please don't only look at meaningless trolling. I'm posting there important quotes from many Daozang texts. I believe it would benefit every fellow member here.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[grassmountiansage]

It all looks really good, but let's not be blind believers, ok?

Let's use some logic and common sense instead. Some basic wisdom : )

 

Let's ask in our minds. OK. So they claim these results. Surely this system did not appear for the first time in this generation, right? Can we go back one generation to look at their master. Did he get buried or did he disappear into the Dao?

 

How about we go back, 2 or 3 or 4 generations to look at their master's masters, what about them?

Buried or turned into the Rainbow Body?

 

Then after we ask the question we must investigate it.

If you believe it then maybe you can call them or e-mail them to ask them about it, so we can be sure : )

 

 

No no I just do my reasearch differently I have spoken to all those men and more you have to learn or get advice from people who actually attained it.....(you will have a greater success rate that way)

 

Because of this I have had much success.

 

You see when you start to attain this your body will start to emit heat and light when you are not doin anything this relates to primordial spontaneity aka the natural state.

 

Infact when one starts to reach this level the middle dantian will resonate with the aaaah sound. The primordial state is stillnes when this level is reached just sitting still will cause the light and heat vibration to start.

 

you see thats the difference FIRST HAND EXP.

[effilang]

Thank you for your answer. However please don't only look at meaningless trolling. I'm posting there important quotes from many Daozang texts. I believe it would benefit every fellow member here.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

No doubt about it. The wisdom is clear. Please don't misunderstand me.

I appreciate the fact that you are here. The more people that are different that join this forum the better.

 

It's only through our differences that we can change. In nature we cannot see our face without the reflection of a surface with mirror properties. In the same way I believe we need other people around us to act as that mirror so that we can see ourselves and where we are and use our wisdom to question the differences between what we believe we are and what we actually are. We all refine ourselves in this way. Whether that mirror is a book, a human teacher an immortal or like the Daoist of old nature itself.

If we didn't do this we would be stuck in one place. We must Xiu Xin Yang Xing all the time.

 

So I appreciate all that is going on in the thread and everywhere else in the forum, as long as it is civil and respectful and grounded in facts as much as possible.

Edited December 10, 2016 by effilang

[effilang]

No no I just do my reasearch differently I have spoken to all those men and more you have to learn or get advice from people who actually attained it.....(you will have a greater success rate that way)

 

Because of this I have had much success.

 

You see when you start to attain this your body will start to emit heat and light when you are not doin anything this relates to primordial spontaneity aka the natural state.

 

Infact when one starts to reach this level the middle dantian will resonate with the aaaah sound. The primordial state is stillnes when this level is reached just sitting still will cause the light and heat vibration to start.

 

you see thats the difference FIRST HAND EXP.

 

Yes, but much of this is also manifested in other systems.

Going back to my question again:

 

If the people of their tradition transmute their physical matter and disappear into emptiness, what happened to the current master's master and that masters master? You didn't ask?

 

Were they buried or did they all disappear?

If so, how can the unmanifested formless pirmordial Qi of the Dao be buried?

 

Surely their students were there to send them off when they personally decided it was time to go, so there must be some evidence?

 

No obituary? No death certificate?

The investigation must go to the root and not just skim the surface.

So these questions must be answered also.

Edited December 10, 2016 by effilang

[grassmountiansage]

Yes, but much of this is also manifested in other systems.

Going back to my question again:

 

If the people of their tradition transmute their physical matter and disappear into emptiness, what happened to the current master's master and that masters master. We they buried or did they all disappear. Surely their students were there to send them off when they personally decided it was time to go, so there must be some evidence?

 

 

Very good. Ill share a little of what I know of this. First it is very rare and hard to actually find a lineage or master that has the actual teaching to attain this harder to get a chance to learn it.

 

What I have seen in my own personal exp with masters that actually had the knowledge I mean the real core practice and still didnt attain it was due to a few reasons 

 

1. they wanted martial power primarily so that focused on that alchemy more instead.

2. They inherited the teachings and really didnt care about it but care more for the recognition for being the inheritor.

3. They had the alchemy but just never did it.

4. Or the sect had so many poltical issues that the master became mainly concerned with that.

[effilang]

Very good. Ill share a little of what I know of this. First it is very rare and hard to actually find a lineage or master that has the actual teaching to attain this harder to get a chance to learn it.

 

What I have seen in my own personal exp with masters that actually had the knowledge I mean the real core practice and still didnt attain it was due to a few reasons 

 

1. they wanted martial power primarily so that focused on that alchemy more instead.

2. They inherited the teachings and really didnt care about it but care more for the recognition for being the inheritor.

3. They had the alchemy but just never did it.

4. Or the sect had so many poltical issues that the master became mainly concerned with that.

 

Yes, sadly that is the case with most schools, but the method doesn't really matter in this case.

Even in Xiao Yao Pai, there are some people that fall into your category:

 

1. Their wisdom could not expand because of the desire for power, so Hu Fa Shen does not advance them.

2. Some people just want to be called a Daoist officially, but its not something on paper, it's in the conduct, life, heart and spirit. We have these cases in our school also. They lack the drive to continue to work and transform closer to Hu Fa Shen.

3. Very common for us also. Some people just get lazy. Just because we have Hu Fa Shen doesn't mean we have an on and off switch. We must give 50% and HFS also then can give 50%, that's how it works with us also.

4. We have our political issues to deal with also, but we are a spiritual school first, so that's our priority above all things.

 

So at the end of the day. We still have no evidence of their claim and so we must consider it speculation until proven otherwise.

 

We when can get a proper account of people who are not dying in their system, but ascend to heaven instead, then we can know it for sure. Until then we are just playing with our imaginations. Emitting heat and light, the body does naturally. Someone that cultivates their Taiji energy (physical) can enhance this property to the point that it appears "supernatural" to someone else, but its all still very far from physical transmutation of postnatal Qi to prenatal Qi or spiritual cultivation for that matter (which happens in Wuji). These manifestations are still only of the physical energy. When their physical body dies so will this function of its Taiji energy. It cannot be carried over into Wuji.

Edited December 10, 2016 by effilang