Yuxianpai & WuLiupai Tradition Doctrine

[SeekerOfHealing]

So your idea is that you convince other people to practice true neidan and true Dao schools, no the false one which spreading like cancer?

[Taomeow]

@A.A. Khokhlov

Thank you for your response.

 

Laozi said (quoting from memory), "When a man tells the truth, I believe him.  When a man lies, I believe him too."  Truth supplies information on the subject matter, lies supply information on the liar.  Both end up revealing the truth to me.  Don't know about people in need of saving from liars and fakes, but Laozi didn't think a third party was needed toward the task, and neither do I.  If someone asks for help, I'll help as best I can with what I know.  If they aren't asking for help, who am I to blow against the wind that propels them on their path?.. 

 

The students of your school raised some red flags because, for one thing, there's no telling how many there were because they were using sock puppets, multiple accounts under different names...  good to know that they acted on their own and weren't sent on a mission.  For another, they didn't appear disrespectful of the fakes selectively -- rather, they designated whoever they didn't like as fakes, and were very disrespectful of some respected, reputable teachers.  Good to know it's not the doctrine of your school to act this way.  When campaigns against fakes are launched, there's always a lot of room for confusion, because the thing is, fakes tend to launch campaigns against true teachers and schools too...  even more than the other way around.  It can get very confusing indeed.  Which is why I am opposed to this kind of campaigns on principle.  Let the truths and the lies sort themselves out on their own merit.  But that's just me...  and Laozi.

   

 

@Antares

OP is "original poster." 

[SeekerOfHealing]

Yu xian Pai you have all teachings to attain yang shen from that ? I think Yu xian pai have similar or even the same stage or practices as Wu Liu Pai? Or I'm misunderstanding the school ?

[YiYinYiYang]

.

Edited August 12, 2017 by YiYinYiYang

[Brian]

"...to follow orders from a higher authority" is an understandable misunderstanding.

[Taomeow]

@ Taomeow

 

I hope you understand perfectly that the Daoist goal is independence.

 

What would be the meaning for a Daoist to follow orders from an higher authority? That would be mind control instead of transfer of authority.

 

If you don't have authority over your own actions, how can you be responsible for the footprints you leave in the world?

 

Authority is a great responsability which must always be used for the benefit of others, so this is not something to put in all hands.

 

For the sake of disicussion and learning, how the kind of women and men i'm talking about are called in Daoism?

 

I've seen forums where the spread was about 50/50 between taoism and nazism,    an interesting blend, come to think of it, but I didn't make it up.  I've seen it and marveled...  So I avoid taking abstract declarations of what taoists are "supposed" to be like for descriptions of what concrete individuals and/or schools are like in real life, and instead, try to look at what people under this or that banner are actually doing with it. 

 

If people are doing something that I find quite a bit off, their taoist declarations, allegiances and scholarly familiarity with this or that profound source of wisdom can't possibly make up for it for me.  Can they for you?

[Arkady Shadursky]

Yu xian Pai you have all teachings to attain yang shen from that ? I think Yu xian pai have similar or even the same stage or practices as Wu Liu Pai? Or I'm misunderstanding the school ?

Yes you are right. This is traditional School with full transmission. However stages are a little different from WuLiupai School

For now you can find more info here:

http://forum.daode.ru/f1461/system-stages-yuxianpai-school-ma-danyang-32209/#Content

 

This is only a little piece of info about Yuxianpai we have translated to English. And plenty of it still in Russian  .

But let's wait for A.A. Khokhlov shed more light on that.

 

After all he is the official representative and the Chief Instructor.

---

Best regards,

Arkady

[A.A.Khokhlov]

@A.A. Khokhlov

Thank you for your response.

 

Laozi said (quoting from memory), "When a man tells the truth, I believe him.  When a man lies, I believe him too."  Truth supplies information on the subject matter, lies supply information on the liar.  Both end up revealing the truth to me.  Don't know about people in need of saving from liars and fakes, but Laozi didn't think a third party was needed toward the task, and neither do I.  If someone asks for help, I'll help as best I can with what I know.  If they aren't asking for help, who am I to blow against the wind that propels them on their path?.. 

 

The students of your school raised some red flags because, for one thing, there's no telling how many there were because they were using sock puppets, multiple accounts under different names...  good to know that they acted on their own and weren't sent on a mission.  For another, they didn't appear disrespectful of the fakes selectively -- rather, they designated whoever they didn't like as fakes, and were very disrespectful of some respected, reputable teachers.  Good to know it's not the doctrine of your school to act this way.  When campaigns against fakes are launched, there's always a lot of room for confusion, because the thing is, fakes tend to launch campaigns against true teachers and schools too...  even more than the other way around.  It can get very confusing indeed.  Which is why I am opposed to this kind of campaigns on principle.  Let the truths and the lies sort themselves out on their own merit.  But that's just me...  and Laozi.

   

 

@Antares

OP is "original poster." 

 

 

Laozi has actually said:

 

With sincere people I am sincere. With people who are not sincere I am sincere too.

 

And it is how am I doing. That is an example when wrong translation leads to violation of Tolerance Taiji and yes results in eating trash, sooner or later. And once again shows us the importance of finding a True Teacher (who will point you to the correct path).

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Edited December 13, 2016 by A.A.Khokhlov

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Yu xian Pai you have all teachings to attain yang shen from that ? I think Yu xian pai have similar or even the same stage or practices as Wu Liu Pai? Or I'm misunderstanding the school ?

 

Yes that is true.

 

The difference between Schools is that in WuLiupai you should pass difficult stages of novitiate but your cultivation is being fully controlled by your Teacher (in Chinese way - no democracy, tolerance etc.)

 

While in Yuxianpai the instructions are being transmitted by Teacher as well but he wouldn't intervene in your everyday life. Your result will depend solely on your personal practice.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

 

[A.A.Khokhlov]

From personal experience, there is no doubt that his Kunlun energy has a POWERFUL spiritual effect, especially at first.  I mean, the sh*t definitely packs a HUGE WALLOP!!!

 

I don't think it is a cure-all, magic bullet, though.  For example, for me personally I found it overrated for self-healing - and I've had to use other modalities for that instead.

 

I do know Max has done some very impressive healings on others, though.  One in particular that stood out in my mind was him healing some guy in Austin of severe mercury poisoning.  This was a very tall, lanky "thin man" who I think may have even hobbled in with a cane.  After Max worked on him intensely on the floor, he improved immensely with normalized mobility (if I vaguely recall).  In fact, he was so impressed, he apparently moved to CA to be with more Kunlun practitioners...

 

Meanwhile, I think Max got severely drained from that healing though, and may have almost died?

 

(I may have this anecdote somewhat wrong though, as it was long ago, very fuzzy now, and I was only on the periphery of it even then.)

 

But for more "concrete" evidence, there is a photo gallery - although photos are hard to prove real or fake...

 

 

I personally stopped the practice after a while because I felt like I "plateaued," and needed a lot more self-healing before I could attempt any more alchemy...  But if I try it again at some point, it will be interesting to see what happens with clearer channels?

 

It is exactly what our Teacher in China says about healing others. Unless a person has an unlimited primordial energy he better not heal anyone but finish his cultivation first. Otherwise he will waste it and wouldn't even be able to finish the practice.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[effilang]

It is exactly what our Teacher in China says about healing others. Unless a person has an unlimited primordial energy he better not heal anyone but finish his cultivation first. Otherwise he will waste it and wouldn't even be able to finish the practice.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

Interesting. We have similar principles in our tradition, only we do not have to finish our cultivation to get to the point of being able to continuously transform Wuji energy to Taiji so that we can influence another persons human energy (post jing,qi,shen) - it is due to the way in which we connect our Ren and Du. It's different from other schools.

Edited December 13, 2016 by effilang

[Taomeow]

Laozi has actually said:

 

With sincere people I am sincere. With people who are not sincere I am sincere too.

 

And it is how am I doing. That is an example when wrong translation leads to violation of Tolerance Taiji and yes results in eating trash, sooner or later. And once again shows us the importance of finding a True Teacher (who will point you to the correct path).

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

 

Actually, I did specify "quoting from memory," so all it means is that I didn't learn the whole thing by heart.  Also, there's well over one hundred different translations of Laozi in English, and to believe that yours is the only correct one would be a bit of a stretch for me.  A Chinese friend of mine, linguistically educated in the best scholarly traditions in Taiwan, translates the Tao Te Ching for me orally when I want to better understand this or that line, and he asserts that a lot of it can't possibly be translated "accurately" and is very open to interpretation -- and was meant to be by the author.  So I stand uncorrected.  

[dawei]

Post Cleanup with a Split to the Pit/Chaos...

[grassmountiansage]

Effilang and A.A.Khokhlov,

 

Since your both on here i wanted to ask you both on your thoughts about neidan cultivation in the spirit realm.

 

The buddhist approach is a more of a cultivate earth (body earth realm) first and then heaven (shen spirit realm) later while taoist  seems to be more of a cultivate earth and heaven together.

 

The system I train in is taoist but feels like kind of a buddhist approach in this sense it cultivates the earth realm first and then later work in the spirit world comes later.

 

So my question is what is your thoughts on cultivating neidan in the spirit realm and its advantages. 

[effilang]

Effilang and A.A.Khokhlov,

 

Since your both on here i wanted to ask you both on your thoughts about neidan cultivation in the spirit realm.

 

The buddhist approach is a more of a cultivate earth (body earth realm) first and then heaven (shen spirit realm) later while taoist  seems to be more of a cultivate earth and heaven together.

 

The system I train in is taoist but feels like kind of a buddhist approach in this sense it cultivates the earth realm first and then later work in the spirit world comes later.

 

So my question is what is your thoughts on cultivating neidan in the spirit realm and its advantages.

 

 

 

I'm curious about the notion of Buddhists developing the body. If we're speaking of the two major forms of Buddhism, IME from living in monasteries and meeting bikkkhu and bikkhuni, that have been practicing upwards of 30 years in the sangha, I had yet to find one that was not feeble bodied and weak and there was never any body cultivation, only awareness and wisdom cultivation, but that lacks the development of the divine vehicle with which the awareness fuses: Yang Shen. In fact they even advised against doing physical exercise to enhance the body as it "attached" our awareness to the the body.

 

My issue with most Buddhist practice is that it is forming:

 

You have, the 4 noble truths, the 8 precepts, renunciation, completion and generation stage practice visualization etc.

All these have sets of rules to be followed, which help to point one in the direction of detaching from worldly life.

 

Do not do this, do that.

Do that, do not do this.

Visualize this, not that.

 

It is forming, and the form that those rules create tune the mind to a certain frequency; that is why the mind of a typical Buddhist has a form; the Buddhist form, fashioned by their many rules and literature.

 

This form has its own frequency which supposedly takes one to the highest goal, but the highest goal is the Dao and the Dao is formless, so how can the conceptual form of rules synchronize us with the highest goal, and how can form take us to the highest which is formless?

 

Kong = emptiness.

Empty, but not void. 

 

So something is missing there.

 

The immortals I know are happy, laughing, enjoy pleasure and delight and love to experience and appreciate existence.

This type of attitude is very different to the principles of Buddhism which encourage detachment from senses and abandoning the world to live a holy life. Even Nirvana means to extinguish or blow out (the fire of the three poisons), but In Daoism we grab the bull by the horns and jump on it's back and enjoy the ride. We are here to experience. It's very different.

 

We embrace the world, while Buddhists tend to look at is as illusory and avoid it. 

There is no illusion, the world is very real and our experience here is also very real and very important.

 

Why come to Earth, this beautiful planet teeming with life, creatures and experiences waiting to be had, if we were to simply hide away from it and seclude ourselves?

 

Daoism began by following nature. Nature does not hide away from itself, it embraces all.

 

I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.

 

This is how Buddha discovered Dhyana. He described it as being born of seclusion and convinced himself that we must move away from life to achieve it. Later when he left the palace for the first time, this further developed his idea that life was Dukkha and we must "escape" it. 

 

I'm sure that If I was kept in the palace all my life, fed grapes, got 8 hand massages from pretty ladies all day long, and pleasure and delight was all I knew of life, SURELY, when I left the palace and all I saw was sickness, death and old age - I would quickly develop an aversion to the reality of "life". That is why Buddhism looks at life so bitterly. It all stems from Buddha's initial reaction to reality and the idea about life as being something we must escape from, because his basis for this comparison and the conclusion that he established thereof was his privileged and lavish royal life.

 

If we look at the story of the three vinegar tasters, we see that:

 

- Kongfuzi said it was sour, because the world was imperfect and laws and regulations were needed to "correct" it.

- Buddha said it was bitter, because the world was filled with suffering and a method was needed to "escape" it.

- Laozi said it was sweet, because the world and all things had their inherent harmony, and rules only caused resistance against this natural flow, which needed not any "way" to be achieved, because we are already it, and so he looked at life positively and as having a sweet taste.

 

What is the purpose of spiritual cultivation?

 

To develop the spiritual body that can fuse with our awareness so we have a vehicle to traverse the spiritual realms.

We cannot create a spiritual body in the physical realm so we must first SHIFT our awareness to move from the physical realm (Taiji) to enter the spiritual realm (Wuji). The awareness actually has this multidimensional property.

 

Once the awareness has shifted into Wuji, we can begin to create the spiritual body (Yang Shen).

Then when we fuse the awareness to the developing spiritual body, we can slowly begin to operate it.

It's like we transfer our consciousness to it so it can absorb it fully, but it's not immediate, it is gradual.

 

That is why in some books they say that after the spiritual child is delivered from the top of the head into the spirit realm for the first time, it is still dull and stupid (just like a newborn baby) that has to absorb data through the senses to develop it's intelligence. The difference is that our intelligence has already developed as adults, so we just transfer it and fuse it into one body, then gradually the Yang Shen becomes operational. This is why, even though we get access to our former live's information and talents, immortals project themselves in the vision of their final earthly body and its corresponding awareness.

 

That is why it is SO VERY important to develop your intelligence and wisdom on Earth.

Here is where we can do it, because there are also OTHER PEOPLE here.

 

If we were alone, there is no way to advance, right? - Because we cannot interact with anyone.

Nobody can challenge us to make us angry, or jealous or anxious.

IF nobody or nothing is there to make those imperfections come up to the surface, how can we know they are there, waiting to be refined?

 

Can you see the importance now of entering society and being a part of life, vs leaving it to go into seclusion?

It is like shooting our potential for wisdom in the foot, but also for karma resolution. So we must live life as much as we can, it's for our own benefit. The spiritual body of the Dao itself cannot be inflicted with pain. That is why some theories claims that the Dao was so great and perfect, that it could not fully fathom its own perfection and infinity, so it spiraled down into physical existence so that through the imperfections and limitations of the physical body it could know itself completely, know its angers, know its frustrations, jealousies and pains - and then through that experience perfect them and rise above them to realize itself as Dao, in essence knowing its perfection through knowing its imperfection. It's an interesting theory : ) 

 

IF, we don't develop this intelligence and wisdom so we can refine our awareness and negative Yin characteristics, when what happens when we begin to develop the spiritual body and meld our awareness to it? I think you guessed it already. It cannot develop past Yin Shen level... Because we did not refine the Yin qualities.

 

I know monks who have been in the monastery for a looooooooong time. Longer than my time on earth.

They thought they had overcome all their negative characteristics, why? Because in the monastery everybody follows the rules, so nobody makes you angry, everybody is kind and compassionate. It is like trying to find a virus in a medical cleanroom; its very hard. So how can you know to refine your negative traits if they are never aroused? When they leave the monastery for the first time, they fall apart because the first person to insult them triggers them immediately and their whole wall of achievement crumbles in front of them.

 

The best swords are made in scorching fire, beaten between the anvil and the hammer, sparks flying.

 

So, the idea in Houtian is to raise our awareness from Jing to Qi to Shen after we reach Shen, then we are starting to push the membrane of Taiji - when we break that membrane, our awareness enters Wuji for the first time. HERE. We can begin to cultivate the immortal spiritual  body by absorbing the divine energy of Wuji into the spiritual body to solidify and strengthen it, just like the fetus absorbs the mothers energy to develop.

 

So, in Houtian we begin to build a bridge from one side of the cliff to the other.

When we get to the other side, we then start to cultivate the spirit by absorbing divine energy into the spiritual body to feed it and sustain it, so that it can develop from the spiritual sperm and egg (outer and inner medicines) to the zygote (great medicine) and from there turn into the embryo, then the fetus, then the baby (Xiao Shen Xien), then the baby is delivered from the top of the head to continue its growth. So before we can begin all this, in Houtian xiulian, we must ACTIVATE the Shen and breakout of Taiji, then we can start to ABSORB the divine energy from Wuji directly.

 

In Xiantian xiulian, we skip the building of the bridge entirely. During initiation our SHEN is activated on day one. Then through our assigned Hu Fa Shen tunes our awareness further so we start to absorb divine energy from Wuji from day one. Our spirit becomes wrapped with divine energy like a cocoon. That is the golden aura that wraps around every Dao Yu during initiation. Then when we sit down to practice and invite Hu Fa Shen, he guides our awareness to stay in Wuji, so we continue to absorb divine energy and our Yang Shen just develops naturally. So we enter Wu Wei in our Jing Zuo from day one. Then the transformation just happens automatically, no You Wei necessary at all.

 

The reason I say that our awareness is guided by HFS even after our SHEN is activated, is because your awareness cannot adjust in just one day after the initiation. We are used to having our awareness focused on our acquired earthly mind, so in the beginning stages of Xiantian practice, Hu Fa Shen will guide our awareness, and keep it in Wuji until we become conscious of its ability to shift between Taiji and Wuji, then we can independently MOVE it without Hu Fa Shen's guidance; and we just reside in Wuji and absorb divine energy so our Yang Shen grows.

 

This is why during initiation many people describe seeing the falling flowers and dancing snow, which is usually something you experience around the final stages of Taiji practice in Houtian when the immortal body breaks out of the head for the first time.

 

So the key is in the divine energy and absorbing it so that we can cultivate Hun Shen to Yin Shen to Yang Shen.

 

As someone who has practiced both systems, one of my greatest fascinations is connecting the dots between Houtian and Xiantian in terms of alchemical procedures, sequencing, timing, energy routes and meridians. 

 

I want to try and connect it as much as possible. My masters have no interest in the idea and I don't blame them, because when you have something that is working, you just go with it, but I feel like I have my feet in both of these ways, so I will do my best over the years to keep finding new puzzle pieces and putting together the grand picture so we  can find the subtle points of both approaches to spiritual cultivation for the benefit of all : )

 

Many people think that Shen Xian or Tian Xian level is it. Like that's it. There's nothing more after that, but that's not the case.

The Dao is infinite. So we are always always refining and Xiu Xin Yang Xing and preserving our Yuan Xing.

 

I'll give you an example:

 

Hu Fa Shen can see the future, but there is never only one future. Every given moment in the present can lead to multiply potential timelines and outcomes. So even though HFS can see what is going to happen, we as the student have the final say, because we have the power of free will. So that means we have the power to change our mind at any point and alter the future. So Hu Fa Shen can see one timeline and say, this is the most beneficial one for him, I will give him some small advice. Then because we are stubborn, we don't believe HFS, and say no, it can't be. I will do something else instead. Then after a while we realize we made the wrong decision and our life is a bit harder now. Then HFS facepalms.

 

For them it's tricky because they cannot really interfere with our life significantly. At the start they help a lot. If you slip your HFS will hold you up so you don't fall, but later as your wisdom matures, they just "watch". If you slip, they just watch to see if you will correct yourself so you don't fall down. If you do fall down, they just "watch" to see how you will pick yourself up.

 

So HFS, even though they are Yang Shen and already Shen Xian, through teaching us, also refine themselves be continuing to cultivate their Xiantian Wu Jing Shen. For example If Einstein was speaking to one of his colleagues, he could probably speak very easily at a very high level, but if you put a 10 year old in front of him, regardless of his wisdom, Einstein would be forced to find a way to communicate his wisdom to the child in a way he understands. That would help him refine his patience, his compassion, his understanding, his kindness and his flexibility.

 

So even with the Daoist Shen Xian, it is the same.

I am cultivating. My masters are cultivating. My Shifu is cultivating. My Hu Fa Shen is cultivating. Tai Shang is also cultivating : )

Edited December 14, 2016 by effilang

[grassmountiansage]

 

 

 

I'm curious about the notion of Buddhists developing the body. If we're speaking of the two major forms of Buddhism, IME from living in monasteries and meeting bikkkhu and bikkhuni, that have been practicing upwards of 30 years in the sangha, I had yet to find one that was not feeble bodied and weak and there was never any body cultivation, only awareness and wisdom cultivation, but that lacks the development of the divine vehicle with which the awareness fuses: Yang Shen. In fact they even advised against doing physical exercise to enhance the body as it "attached" our awareness to the the body.

 

My issue with most Buddhist practice is that it is forming:

 

You have, the 4 noble truths, the 8 precepts, renunciation, completion and generation stage practice visualization etc.

All these have sets of rules to be followed, which help to point one in the direction of detaching from worldly life.

 

Do not do this, do that.

Do that, do not do this.

Visualize this, not that.

 

It is forming, and the form that those rules create tune the mind to a certain frequency; that is why the mind of a typical Buddhist has a form; the Buddhist form, fashioned by their many rules and literature.

 

This form has its own frequency which supposedly takes one to the highest goal, but the highest goal is the Dao and the Dao is formless, so how can the conceptual form of rules synchronize us with the highest goal, and how can form take us to the highest which is formless?

 

Kong = emptiness.

Empty, but not void. 

 

So something is missing there.

 

The immortals I know are happy, laughing, enjoy pleasure and delight and love to experience and appreciate existence.

This type of attitude is very different to the principles of Buddhism which encourage detachment from senses and abandoning the world to live a holy life. Even Nirvana means to extinguish or blow out (the fire of the three poisons), but In Daoism we grab the bull by the horns and jump on it's back and enjoy the ride. We are here to experience. It's very different.

 

We embrace the world, while Buddhists tend to look at is as illusory and avoid it. 

There is no illusion, the world is very real and our experience here is also very real and very important.

 

Why come to Earth, this beautiful planet teeming with life, creatures and experiences waiting to be had, if we were to simply hide away from it and seclude ourselves?

 

Daoism began by following nature. Nature does not hide away from itself, it embraces all.

 

I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.

 

This is how Buddha discovered Dhyana. He described it as being born of seclusion and convinced himself that we must move away from life to achieve it. Later when he left the palace for the first time, this further developed his idea that life was Dukkha and we must "escape" it. 

 

I'm sure that If I was kept in the palace all my life, fed grapes, got 8 hand massages from pretty ladies all day long, and pleasure and delight was all I knew of life, SURELY, when I left the palace and all I saw was sickness, death and old age - I would quickly develop an aversion to the reality of "life". That is why Buddhism looks at life so bitterly. It all stems from Buddha's initial reaction to reality and the idea about life as being something we must escape from, because his basis for this comparison and the conclusion that he established thereof was his privileged and lavish royal life.

 

If we look at the story of the three vinegar tasters, we see that:

 

- Kongfuzi said it was sour, because the world was imperfect and laws and regulations were needed to "correct" it.

- Buddha said it was bitter, because the world was filled with suffering and a method was needed to "escape" it.

- Laozi said it was sweet, because the world and all things had their inherent harmony, and rules only caused resistance against this natural flow, which needed not any "way" to be achieved, because we are already it, and so he looked at life positively and as having a sweet taste.

 

What is the purpose of spiritual cultivation?

 

To develop the spiritual body that can fuse with our awareness so we have a vehicle to traverse the spiritual realms.

We cannot create a spiritual body in the physical realm so we must first SHIFT our awareness to move from the physical realm (Taiji) to enter the spiritual realm (Wuji). The awareness actually has this multidimensional property.

 

Once the awareness has shifted into Wuji, we can begin to create the spiritual body (Yang Shen).

Then when we fuse the awareness to the developing spiritual body, we can slowly begin to operate it.

It's like we transfer our consciousness to it so it can absorb it fully, but it's not immediate, it is gradual.

 

That is why in some books they say that after the spiritual child is delivered from the top of the head into the spirit realm for the first time, it is still dull and stupid (just like a newborn baby) that has to absorb data through the senses to develop it's intelligence. The difference is that our intelligence has already developed as adults, so we just transfer it and fuse it into one body, then gradually the Yang Shen becomes operational. This is why, even though we get access to our former live's information and talents, immortals project themselves in the vision of their final earthly body and its corresponding awareness.

 

That is why it is SO VERY important to develop your intelligence and wisdom on Earth.

Here is where we can do it, because there are also OTHER PEOPLE here.

 

If we were alone, there is no way to advance, right? - Because we cannot interact with anyone.

Nobody can challenge us to make us angry, or jealous or anxious.

IF nobody or nothing is there to make those imperfections come up to the surface, how can we know they are there, waiting to be refined?

 

Can you see the importance now of entering society and being a part of life, vs leaving it to go into seclusion?

It is like shooting our potential for wisdom in the foot, but also for karma resolution. So we must live life as much as we can, it's for our own benefit. The spiritual body of the Dao itself cannot be inflicted with pain. That is why some theories claims that the Dao was so great and perfect, that it could not fully fathom its own perfection and infinity, so it spiraled down into physical existence so that through the imperfections and limitations of the physical body it could know itself completely, know its angers, know its frustrations, jealousies and pains - and then through that experience perfect them and rise above them to realize itself as Dao, in essence knowing its perfection through knowing its imperfection. It's an interesting theory : ) 

 

IF, we don't develop this intelligence and wisdom so we can refine our awareness and negative Yin characteristics, when what happens when we begin to develop the spiritual body and meld our awareness to it? I think you guessed it already. It cannot develop past Yin Shen level... Because we did not refine the Yin qualities.

 

I know monks who have been in the monastery for a looooooooong time. Longer than my time on earth.

They thought they had overcome all their negative characteristics, why? Because in the monastery everybody follows the rules, so nobody makes you angry, everybody is kind and compassionate. It is like trying to find a virus in a medical cleanroom; its very hard. So how can you know to refine your negative traits if they are never aroused? When they leave the monastery for the first time, they fall apart because the first person to insult them triggers them immediately and their whole wall of achievement crumbles in front of them.

 

The best swords are made in scorching fire, beaten between the anvil and the hammer, sparks flying.

 

So, the idea in Houtian is to raise our awareness from Jing to Qi to Shen after we reach Shen, then we are starting to push the membrane of Taiji - when we break that membrane, our awareness enters Wuji for the first time. HERE. We can begin to cultivate the immortal spiritual  body by absorbing the divine energy of Wuji into the spiritual body to solidify and strengthen it, just like the fetus absorbs the mothers energy to develop.

 

So, in Houtian we begin to build a bridge from one side of the cliff to the other.

When we get to the other side, we then start to cultivate the spirit by absorbing divine energy into the spiritual body to feed it and sustain it, so that it can develop from the spiritual sperm and egg (outer and inner medicines) to the zygote (great medicine) and from there turn into the embryo, then the fetus, then the baby (Xiao Shen Xien), then the baby is delivered from the top of the head to continue its growth. So before we can begin all this, in Houtian xiulian, we must ACTIVATE the Shen and breakout of Taiji, then we can start to ABSORB the divine energy from Wuji directly.

 

In Xiantian xiulian, we skip the building of the bridge entirely. During initiation our SHEN is activated on day one. Then through our assigned Hu Fa Shen tunes our awareness further so we start to absorb divine energy from Wuji from day one. Our spirit becomes wrapped with divine energy like a cocoon. That is the golden aura that wraps around every Dao Yu during initiation. Then when we sit down to practice and invite Hu Fa Shen, he guides our awareness to stay in Wuji, so we continue to absorb divine energy and our Yang Shen just develops naturally. So we enter Wu Wei in our Jing Zuo from day one. Then the transformation just happens automatically, no You Wei necessary at all.

 

The reason I say that our awareness is guided by HFS even after our SHEN is activated, is because your awareness cannot adjust in just one day after the initiation. We are used to having our awareness focused on our acquired earthly mind, so in the beginning stages of Xiantian practice, Hu Fa Shen will guide our awareness, and keep it in Wuji until we become conscious of its ability to shift between Taiji and Wuji, then we can independently MOVE it without Hu Fa Shen's guidance; and we just reside in Wuji and absorb divine energy so our Yang Shen grows.

 

This is why during initiation many people describe seeing the falling flowers and dancing snow, which is usually something you experience around the final stages of Taiji practice in Houtian when the immortal body breaks out of the head for the first time.

 

So the key is in the divine energy and absorbing it so that we can cultivate Hun Shen to Yin Shen to Yang Shen.

 

As someone who has practiced both systems, one of my greatest fascinations is connecting the dots between Houtian and Xiantian in terms of alchemical procedures, sequencing, timing, energy routes and meridians. 

 

I want to try and connect it as much as possible. My masters have no interest in the idea and I don't blame them, because when you have something that is working, you just go with it, but I feel like I have my feet in both of these ways, so I will do my best over the years to keep finding new puzzle pieces and putting together the grand picture so we  can find the subtle points of both approaches to spiritual cultivation for the benefit of all : )

 

Many people think that Shen Xian or Tian Xian level is it. Like that's it. There's nothing more after that, but that's not the case.

The Dao is infinite. So we are always always refining and Xiu Xin Yang Xing and preserving our Yuan Xing.

 

I'll give you an example:

 

Hu Fa Shen can see the future, but there is never only one future. Every given moment in the present can lead to multiply potential timelines and outcomes. So even though HFS can see what is going to happen, we as the student have the final say, because we have the power of free will. So that means we have the power to change our mind at any point and alter the future. So Hu Fa Shen can see one timeline and say, this is the most beneficial one for him, I will give him some small advice. Then because we are stubborn, we don't believe HFS, and say no, it can't be. I will do something else instead. Then after a while we realize we made the wrong decision and our life is a bit harder now. Then HFS facepalms.

 

For them it's tricky because they cannot really interfere with our life significantly. At the start they help a lot. If you slip your HFS will hold you up so you don't fall, but later as your wisdom matures, they just "watch". If you slip, they just watch to see if you will correct yourself so you don't fall down. If you do fall down, they just "watch" to see how you will pick yourself up.

 

So HFS, even though they are Yang Shen and already Shen Xian, through teaching us, also refine themselves be continuing to cultivate their Xiantian Wu Jing Shen. For example If Einstein was speaking to one of his colleagues, he could probably speak very easily at a very high level, but if you put a 10 year old in front of him, regardless of his wisdom, Einstein would be forced to find a way to communicate his wisdom to the child in a way he understands. That would help him refine his patience, his compassion, his understanding, his kindness and his flexibility.

 

So even with the Daoist Shen Xian, it is the same.

I am cultivating. My masters are cultivating. My Shifu is cultivating. My Hu Fa Shen is cultivating. Tai Shang is also cultivating : )

 

 

 

Ah ok here is what I meant to say.

 

By the body I mean more of the alchemy process where the essence of the spirit and body meat in the middle dantian (creating the vajra in the heart) and the golden body manifests that way for us.Now from that point we work on absorbing divine energy and the spirit world.

 

Now it seems that the taoist neidan approach is more of cultivation the body jing qi shen via mco breathing techniques etc and projecting the spirit body and cultivating in the spirit realm then bringing the spirit body back in and attaining the taoist gold body of light that way.

 

So my question would be do you spirit project out in your training and cultivate in the spirit realm directly if so do you feel that this way is a faster way of serving the earthly and heavenly realms?

[effilang]

Ah ok here is what I meant to say.

 

By the body I mean more of the alchemy process where the essence of the spirit and body meat in the middle dantian (creating the vajra in the heart) and the golden body manifests that way for us. Now from that point we work on absorbing divine energy and the spirit world.

 

Now it seems that the taoist neidan approach is more of cultivation the body jing qi shen via mco breathing techniques etc and projecting the spirit body and cultivating in the spirit realm then bringing the spirit body back in and attaining the taoist gold body of light that way.

 

So my question would be do you spirit project out in your training and cultivate in the spirit realm directly if so do you feel that this way is a faster way of serving the earthly and heavenly realms?

 

You will have to wait for AAK's answer on the first questions, as his tradition is more familiar with that I think, because I see that you are saying we need to project to create the spiritual body, then come back into the body again for something else?

 

Ohh.. wait I understand what you're saying now.

 

So In houtian when the immortal child is born, what we call Xiao Shen (baby or small shen), we usually have to bring it back in to protect it, just like a new born baby. Especially because it is still unintelligent due to our not completing the fusion with awareness yet. So it is naive and susceptible to attack. So yes, it must be withdrawn into the body to continue the process of maturation or melding with our awareness.

 

In Xiantian the Xiao Shen does not need protection because we are wrapped with divine energy, so we have no reason to withdraw it, but projecting the Xiao Shen is not fully synonymous with entering Wuji. Just like the energy of the Ren and Du meridians can change its property to synchronize with divine energy, but the meridians don't have to move. Nevertheless, the projection or birth is important, because it is part of the maturation process of the Yang Shen. Just like a physical baby cannot begin to live until it is delivered. 

 

There is also a difference between someone giving you a rubber hose to use to give yourself water (divine energy) and jumping in the sea.

 

So, what im trying to say is that, whether the Yang Shen is outside or inside the body, it is always connected to Wuji. We can absorb divine energy inside the body or outside the body, but for houtian practitioners its safer to recall it back to the body to protect it while it matures, but they still continue to absorb divine energy from Wuji, just a little more differently.

 

The frequency of our awareness is what allows us to channel and sustain the state of Wuji through which we absorb divine awareness. So its not an ability triggered by the Yang Shen, but by our awareness. That's why during initiation we trigger the Shen in the apprentice, so that there awareness can tune the radio to the right frequency immediately, then we just wu wei.

 

So there is no need for the Yang Shen to MOVE in a physical way, because it is beyond space-time and inter-dimensional. So by being here, it is also there simultaneously. Our awareness and our soul also has this property, so actually a part of the human is always connected to the divine 24/7, even before they begin Neidan, even just after we are born, but our conscious awareness of this is what triggers our interaction with it on a practical level. So houtian builds a trigger to activate this, while xiantian methods start with the trigger, we just pull and fire.

 

For houtian practitioners, after the Xiao Shen is born, they cannot abandon the body, they must continue to cultivate for a long time until it is mature and aware. That's why houtian also places such a big emphasis on the physical body, because they need it to live as long as possible to finish the process, but in xiantian in XYP, after our energy congeals into Xiao Yan Shen, even if we die, HFS just guides us and protects us in the divine realm so we can continue to cultivate there and absorb divine energy. This is why in xiantian in XYP, we don't focus on the physical body beyond basic health. We have no diets. Nobody has to be a vegetarian. Eat what you like, do what you like, drink what you like. Like Lu Dong Bin eh? -  It does not affect our spirit work. That is naturalness (ziran). No rules. The Dao is the way without a way. That is why the moment we trigger real Neidan, it's wuwei from there on. The mind has no business at this level : )

 

In essence, after our Yang Shen begins to fuse with our awareness, it is like our awareness is delivered from the mother Earth (Taiji), that granted us the experiences necessary to evolve our awareness trough lifetimes, and into the spiritual world (Wuji), then it must mature (transfer/upload) together with the developing Yang Shen to become one.

 

PS: If breathing is involved with the MCO, it's still Qigong, because the breath is needed to support the movement of Qi. Later when the awareness integrates with the Qi, breath is not needed to fan or move it. Just mind.

Edited December 14, 2016 by effilang

[grassmountiansage]

You will have to wait for AAK's answer on the first questions, as his tradition is more familiar with that I think, because I see that you are saying we need to project to create the spiritual body, then come back into the body again for something else?

 

Ohh.. wait I understand what you're saying now.

 

So In houtian when the immortal child is born, what we call Xiao Shen (baby or small shen), we usually have to bring it back in to protect it, just like a new born baby. Especially because it is still unintelligent due to our not completing the fusion with awareness yet. So it is naive and susceptible to attack. So yes, it must be withdrawn into the body to continue the process of maturation or melding with our awareness.

 

In Xiantian the Xiao Shen does not need protection because we are wrapped with divine energy, so we have no reason to withdraw it, but projecting the Xiao Shen is not fully synonymous with entering Wuji. Just like the energy of the Ren and Du meridians can change its property to synchronize with divine energy, but the meridians don't have to move. Nevertheless, the projection or birth is important, because it is part of the maturation process of the Yang Shen. Just like a physical baby cannot begin to live until it is delivered. 

 

There is also a difference between someone giving you a rubber hose to use to give yourself water (divine energy) and jumping in the sea.

 

So, what im trying to say is that, whether the Yang Shen is outside or inside the body, it is always connected to Wuji. We can absorb divine energy inside the body or outside the body, but for houtian practitioners its safer to recall it back to the body to protect it while it matures, but they still continue to absorb divine energy from Wuji, just a little more differently.

 

The frequency of our awareness is what allows us to channel and sustain the state of Wuji through which we absorb divine awareness. So its not an ability triggered by the Yang Shen, but by our awareness. That's why during initiation we trigger the Shen in the apprentice, so that there awareness can tune the radio to the right frequency immediately, then we just wu wei.

 

So there is no need for the Yang Shen to MOVE in a physical way, because it is beyond space-time and inter-dimensional. So by being here, it is also there simultaneously. Our awareness and our soul also has this property, so actually a part of the human is always connected to the divine 24/7, even before they begin Neidan, even just after we are born, but our conscious awareness of this is what triggers our interaction with it on a practical level. So houtian builds a trigger to activate this, while xiantian methods start with the trigger, we just pull and fire.

 

For houtian practitioners, after the Xiao Shen is born, they cannot abandon the body, they must continue to cultivate for a long time until it is mature and aware. That's why houtian also places such a big emphasis on the physical body, because they need it to live as long as possible to finish the process, but in xiantian in XYP, after our energy congeals into Xiao Yan Shen, even if we die, HFS just guides us and protects us in the divine realm so we can continue to cultivate there and absorb divine energy. This is why in xiantian in XYP, we don't focus on the physical body beyond basic health. We have no diets. Nobody has to be a vegetarian. Eat what you like, do what you like, drink what you like. Like Lu Dong Bin eh? -  It does not affect our spirit work. That is naturalness (ziran). No rules. The Dao is the way without a way. That is why the moment we trigger real Neidan, it's wuwei from there on. The mind has no business at this level : )

 

In essence, after our Yang Shen begins to fuse with our awareness, it is like our awareness is delivered from the mother Earth (Taiji), that granted us the experiences necessary to evolve our awareness trough lifetimes, and into the spiritual world (Wuji), then it must mature (transfer/upload) together with the developing Yang Shen to become one.

 

PS: If breathing is involved with the MCO, it's still Qigong, because the breath is needed to support the movement of Qi. Later when the awareness integrates with the Qi, breath is not needed to fan or move it. Just mind.

 

Much to think on thank you.

[Enishi]

 

 

The immortals I know are happy, laughing, enjoy pleasure and delight and love to experience and appreciate existence.

This type of attitude is very different to the principles of Buddhism which encourage detachment from senses and abandoning the world to live a holy life. Even Nirvana means to extinguish or blow out (the fire of the three poisons), but In Daoism we grab the bull by the horns and jump on it's back and enjoy the ride. We are here to experience. It's very different.

 

We embrace the world, while Buddhists tend to look at is as illusory and avoid it. 

There is no illusion, the world is very real and our experience here is also very real and very important.

 

Why come to Earth, this beautiful planet teeming with life, creatures and experiences waiting to be had, if we were to simply hide away from it and seclude ourselves?

 

Daoism began by following nature. Nature does not hide away from itself, it embraces all.

 

 

 

Really loved this post!

 

I see it the same way, while there may be much in the world that is out of harmony due to human activity, I've always felt that physical existence is a wondrous gift, even if it sometimes isn't comfortable. Oftentimes the things that bring the greatest joy are satisfying precisely because they are a challenge. The thing I do like about some Buddhist practice is the isolation of Suffering as actually being distinct from simple pain or discomfort, but yeah, I think it really fixates too much on the 'escape suffering' aspect.

[SeekerOfHealing]

Exoteric Buddhists do not cultivate the body. There are practices in estoeric buddhism to attain immortality physical and spiritual too.

[Mudfoot]

"The world is an illusion" is probably the most common misunderstanding of buddhism.

Neither the doctrine of impermanence, the doctrine of suffering, nor the one about no self, needs to be interpreted in a leave the world and sit like a piece of dead wood until you die. IMO that is hardly a way to buddhahood. And yes, esoteric buddhism have a lot to offer.

[TheDustAutumn]

You will have to wait for AAK's answer on the first questions, as his tradition is more familiar with that I think, because I see that you are saying we need to project to create the spiritual body, then come back into the body again for something else?

[...]

What exactly do you think houtian is? As far as I know, post-heaven jing, qi and shen are basically sperm, physical respiration and the thinking mind(the actual brain and one of the main reason while visualization and imagination is strictly forbidden in any internal practice as it causes false, placebo effects like creating a false dantian for example). There is no immortal child born out of houtian practices because the ingredients are not right. The only child that can be born out of houtian practices is a real human child that comes from male and female copulating.

You say that in xiantian you continue to cultivate after death but how can you do that when the tripod, the furnace and the ingredients are all found within the physical body? Wasn't it said in more than one text that one of the reason why we are aloud these incarnations is because we need our bodies in order to perfect ourselves?

Also what exactly is that you define as "awareness" that it may fuse with yang shen and what is in your perception the relation between this "awareness", Yang shen and yuan shen?

Can I get some sources on all this stuff you just said here?

Thanks in advance.

Edited December 15, 2016 by TheDustAutumn

[effilang]

What exactly do you think houtian is?

 

The manifested Dao.

 

As far as I know, post-heaven jing, qi and shen are basically sperm, physical respiration and the thinking mind

 

Well, that just scratches the surface, but you're not wrong, so yes, I agree. No argument here.

 

(the actual brain and one of the main reason why visualization and imagination is strictly forbidden in any internal practice as it causes false, placebo effects like creating a false dantian for example). 

 

Again, no argument here about your general point, but it's not forbidden in many practices. Of course this speaks volumes about results born by the practice.

 

There is no immortal child born out of houtian practices because the ingredients are not right. The only child that can be born out of houtian practices is a real human child that comes from male and female copulating.

 

No argument.

 

I think you would have saved yourself time by reading more about my practice and beliefs before writing all this, because you would have seen there is no need to write it.

 

You say that in xiantian you continue to cultivate after death but how can you do that when the tripod, the furnace and the ingredients are all found within the physical body?

 

You can do it in Houtian also. It depends on how mature the Yang Shen is. Same applies to Xiantian.

There is a cut off point, where the furnace and the tripod are no longer needed. These points differ between XT and HT.

 

Wasn't it said in more than one text that one of the reason why we are aloud these incarnations is because we need our bodies in order to perfect ourselves?

 

I don't know why you're trying to convince me of it. I've never said the body is unnecessary : )

Yes, It's a statistically probable assumption that some other practitioner wrote that and such texts exist and also that I've read them. So?

 

I wouldn't engineer reality around the limitations of Taiji. Perfection is only used in relation to the imperfection of some human qualities. Even after we abandon the body, we still continue to refine our virtues, learn new skills and grow in authority and the Dao is infinite, so where is perfection?

 

The body is just one phase of practice, and Yang Shen is just like a graduation: It's like we start from kindergarten, primary school, secondary school and university; but after you graduate - you still have to find a job and go to work right? So graduation from Taiji is not the end but the beginning of a different chapter of our existence.

 

Also what exactly is that you define as "awareness" that it may fuse with yang shen and what is in your perception the relation between this "awareness", Yang shen and yuan shen?

 

I don't know if I want to touch this one at all, because our tradition is so different, but here goes

 

The awareness is one of three aspects of the composite of the Yuan Shen (Original Spirit), which is what most people call soul.

 

Scientists believe the brain function is all there is to our acquired consciousness (Houtian Zhi Shen), so when the body dies, that's it. That's the end, but spiritual people believe in the the original consciousness or spirit (Xiantian Zhi Shen), and that even if the body dies, we can still go on.

 

The composite of the Yuan Shen is formed of;

 

1.  Our true self (our undying identity).

Do you know what the name of your soul is? Your original name? : )

 

2. The awareness.

This is well, what makes us self-aware and conscious. We know that we are.

 

3. The energy that encapsulates our true self and our awareness.

 

All three together make the Yuan Shen, but there is one more aspect. We call it Sin Sik.

 

This is like our flight recorder : ) - It stores all the data. It's like an indestructible hard drive. All the memories and past life events and experiences are stored in here, but also something else; our actions. Thus, the Sin Sik is responsible for keeping a tally of our actions and keeps an account of whether we are in credit or in debit. If we are in credit we can collect. If we are in debit we have to pay. For most Karma the payment does not have to manifest in exactly the same way, but it must be equal. The exception is the karma of life and death. It can only be repaid with life and death.

 

Sin Sik does not discriminate the information. It just records the actions and reactions.

It's attached to the true self, so we cannot run away from it, haha. It is always part of our identity.

 

If we are a hair dresser and we are cutting someones hair with the intention of making them look good and making them feel happy, but we accidentally cut half of their ear off - Sin Sik doesn't look at whether you didn't mean to do it or not. It just looks at the action and the consequence. This is why its very important to be wise and focus in daily life, because even if we have a good intention the outcome can be negative. The quality of our intention is for our own personal cultivation. Nobody can see our intention in our heart. They just feel the effect of your final action. This is how Sin Sik records.

 

The Yuan Shen further yet is comprised of 10 layers; so there are layers within layers if you will. Its a complex thing.... These are what some refer to as San Hun Qi Po (三魂七魄).

 

The Hun are the immaterial spirits and our unmanifested consciousness.

The Po are also our immaterial spirits, but a lower form of manifested consciousness; like that of the 5 apertures of physical sense which contribute to the formation of the matrix of the acquired consciousness; the mind and our temporal egoic identity.

 

That is why you may hear from some high level practitioners that as the 10 layers begin to fuse and the acquired consciousnesses meld into one to join the 3 hun, one can see sounds, taste touch and hear smells, because the consciousnesses are merging into one entity and the whole body becomes a unified receptacle and processor of information. That's why the immortals don't use their nose to smell or their skin to feel. Their whole being absorbs the information.

 

When the sperm and the egg meet to form the zygote, the Yuan Shen enters it to infuse it with consciousness, then it connects to a brand new 7 Po. So the physical body acts as an intermediary for bringing together the Po with the Hun.

 

When the body becomes weak, loses its ming and we die, the consciousnesses of the 7 Po unable to be sustained by the physical body that connects the 3 Hun and 7 Po, disperses into the immaterial. The remaining 2 Hun (1 usually drops off) with the Sin Sik attached to them end up reincarnating and entering the womb of a new mother, connecting to another 7 Po.

 

The Hun are stronger than the Po, but all are relatively weak still.

When the 2+1 hun reincarnate, one can sometimes stray... If it ends up in a mother's womb without the others, it leads to a miscarriage and can also cause other deviations if it gets born. The child usually doesn't live long or has major impairments.

 

Yang Shen is the progressive result of the fusion of the 10 layers of the Yuan Shen into one entity.

It is the subtle immortal body which we develop. It becomes our vessel in the spiritual world (Wuji).

 

To form the Yang Shen, the 3 Hun and 7 Po have to meld into one consciousness.

The current lifetime identity produced by the 7 Po then becomes the primary identity of the immortal child after it is born from the top of the head. It will look like your physical body, but its a projection. This is why most immortals will present themselves visually as their last human persona, although this is not their true self. They are actually without any form, because after Yang Shen, we still have to disperse our spiritual body into the Dao. That is the highest achievement: Kong, to become the unmanifested potential of the Dao. Empty but not void. That is true emptiness and Kong.

 

So you can think of Yang Shen, as I said above; a progressive result of the unified 10 layers of the Yuan Shen to become solid. Then we have the indestructible body to house our awareness and true self, but they are no longer separate. Everything becomes one and one becomes everything. So it's no longer Yuan Shen, which has a weak energy, but Yang Shen : )

 

That's the state of the Shen Xian.

 

The difference is that in Taiji all these things are separated from one another, while the cultivated Yang Shen body is unified. What we think, speak, feel and act becomes one.

 

Awareness is our self-awareness. Without our awareness, it's like we don't know we exist.

Awareness can be expanded, but it can't be cultivated like typical energy. It's actually quite interesting.

 

This is why it needs a body. Yang Shen is a type of body that we develop, but the body alone is not functional, so the awareness must integrate with it to become actionable, and exercise volition and will. So that awareness can express itself through the body, otherwise we just have awareness which on it's own can't do much and the spiritual body (yang shen) which on it's own can't do much either. The driver is useless without the car and the car is useless without the driver.

 

Just like here in Taiji we need a physical body to manifest our awareness, in Wuji we need a spiritual body to do the same.

 

Can I get some sources on all this stuff you just said here?
 

What do you mean by sources?

 

Are you asking me to give you a link to someones else's recorded experiences?

By that logic aren't you just going to also ask them for a source or will they be more reliable than me?

How do you judge that reliability?

 

It's not a matter of how many people can confirm the same thing.

They could all be liars and scammers and cheats and crooks and just because something was written in the past doesn't make it more valid.

 

So if you are looking for the records of a spiritual practitioner.

You just got them in my reply. That's my source.

 

But please don't believe me.

Find it out for yourself. That is the only way.

 

Sources and books are just another persons opinion, no matter if they are dead or alive.

We must find a method to confirm it ourselves.

 

All this about Yuan Shen, Hun and Po is just the information in a nutshell.

There is a lot more to know, but it does not help us in anyway with our spiritual cultivation.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

No worries : )

Edited December 15, 2016 by effilang

[YiYinYiYang]

.

Edited August 12, 2017 by YiYinYiYang

[Ormus]

I propose that this tread start again from basic like history of Yu Xian Pai and Wu Liu Pai.Then biography of famous Masters and Patriarch of the school,then theory of Nei Dan  and some indications about practice which we know is secret.We can compare them with other Quanzhen schools like Longmen Pai and later to see how they are related to Zhong Lu tradition ,and if and what they exchanged with Nanzong Pai,Zhong Pai,or maybe even Dong Pai.

 

Discussion later can go in a way to see posible connections and interaction with Zheng Yi and particulary Shang Qing Pai branch known as Qing Wei Pai and Shen Xiao Pai(Thunder path).

 

Ormus