Gender roles: traditional view of men and women interaction in life and practice

[SeekerOfHealing]

Same type of site like "find god here" and yellow subtitles on the youtube videos. I would not argue about those things as anyone interested will research on it's own. The end results for the country was better then before and that's what matters to the topic. We need to look at this as they are thru reality rather then romantic lenses or we will get wiped out.

[Apech]

Same type of site like "find god here" and yellow subtitles on the youtube videos. I would not argue about those things as anyone interested will research on it's own. The end results for the country was better then before and that's what matters to the topic. We need to look at this as they are thru reality rather then romantic lenses or we will get wiped out.

 

 

Well sometimes I think this site is nothing but trolls and sock puppets - so I don't want to derail this thread onto a different topic - so I'll leave it here.

[juan]

Since we are all like-minded people and have interest in Taoism and Ancient Tradition in general, it is important to understand gender roles in society from traditional point of view. Lets discuss the roles and functions of male and female and how this concept is seen in Taoism. Any views, insights, experience you wish to share?

 

 

Gender roles are a cultural issue (culture: the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and handed down from one generation to another), and the differences are huge depending on the country, century, social status, education, etc. If you don’t take care of these differences you may easily end up with a series of blanket statements, which in its immense majority are just clichés.

 

 

Have you forgotten biology?

 

So you mean that gender roles in society, the roles and functions of male and female, are imposed by biology?

[SeekerOfHealing]

Yes they are. 

[Apech]

So you mean that gender roles in society, the roles and functions of male and female, are imposed by biology?

 

 

In part of course -  the distinction between men and women is based on physiology - society's 'roles' are in part based on this e.g. the capacity for child bearing for instance and in part by an overlay of cultural attitudes to these fundamentals.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Taoism is a classical system where men and woman are looking at each other.  Each energy no matter what gender that energy has manifested as, has its proper place just like the first two hexagrams in the I Ching.

 

One gender or energy is not more important than the other. Because we can not have one with out the other being polar complete.

 

Western system has men over woman meaning not equal. Equality only exist when things are out of balance or does not line up with reality.

 

Goddesses or attributes of woman is very powerful in spiritual development. But again needs to be balanced with the correct opposite.

[Michael Sternbach]

Since we are all like-minded people and have interest in Taoism and Ancient Tradition in general, it is important to understand gender roles in society from traditional point of view. Lets discuss the roles and functions of male and female and how this concept is seen in Taoism. Any views, insights, experience you wish to share?

 

Daoism (as well as its Western equivalent Hermeticism) view the world from first principles. The most basic ones are indeed:

 

                                                                           Yang                                        Yin

                                                                            Sun                                         Moon

                                                                            Male                                        Female

                                                                            Active                                      Passive

                                                                            Emitting                                   Receiving

                                                                            Leading                                   Following

                                                                            Firm                                         Adaptable

 

Thus, gender is an expression of the most basic polarity that underlies the Universe, both psychologically and physically in humans, most animals and even plants.

 

The distinction becomes obvious even just by consideration of hormone prevalences in men and women respectively, with their implications for psychological and behavioural traits. Yet it is well known that, just like the white yang 'fish' has a black yin 'eye', and vice versa, the male organism produces a certain amount of female hormones, and vice versa. In accordance with these findings, psychologists recognize that representative of both genders carry traits traditionally associated with the opposite one (Jung's anima and animus). A fact, by the way, that astrologers have acknowledged all along by considering the influences of both the Sun and the Moon in each individual's chart.

 

So it goes without saying that, as we approach manifestation, things tend to get more complex and mixed up, and we encounter many variations on the simple original dualistic formula, on the level of both individuals and cultures.

 

Some of these are simply an expression of nature's variability; however, with others it is hard not to see the result of deliberate efforts in them, aimed at the fulfillment of hidden agendas. Thus, women were once motivated to leave their homes and follow their male counterparts taking up jobs in society by the promise of an increase in life standard. However, what happened was that, in adaption to the increase in overall income, prices were generally raised as well.

 

Today, in many cases, both partners have to work just in order for them and their family to survive, typically with young children being left in day care centers. Psychologists warn of the serious ramifications this has got for both individuals and social structures, yet the down playing of sex differences continues relentlessly, not only in the interest of the optimization of the gross national product, but also of the collectivization of human beings.

 

Amidst this confusion, it is hardly surprising that some researchers felt compelled to turn to humanities' close relatives in the animal kingdom for clarification, with remarkable results...

 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/

Edited December 17, 2016 by Michael Sternbach

[liminal_luke]

I have no idea what gender roles looked like in Taoist society historically, but Taoism does have some basic philosophical concepts that might guide us today.

 

First up, yin and yang.  Both exist, both are valuable.  Unlike segregated schools, they really are (somewhat) separate but equal.  Within yin there`s a seed of yang, and within yang there`s a seed of yin.  Extreme yin gives way to yang and vice versa.  

 

Just contemplating these basic truths of nature is relaxing.  This is a great place to start when thinking about gender.  It`s not about trying to be endlessly yang at all times as if yin didn`t exist and didnt matter.  When yin and yang are both given their place, there`s mutual respect.  

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

Speaking in terms of Daoism, early Daoism does not clearly discuss the role of women, which makes sense, because China was and is a patriarchal society in which men are assumed to be actors and women are assumed to be objects (IE: passive).  This change in Chinese gendering really didn't change until Mao Zedong came to power and made women and men equal as producers.  Modern Chinese culture has regressed slightly in terms of equality, but I can only come to the conclusion that it is a tacit part of the social contract in which women choose to take advantage of traditional social roles within the framework of a competitive market economy.

 

Daoism changed radically with Quanzhen and Sun Buer who developed a line of nuns who have been historically treated as exactly equal to men.  In a conversation with a scholar (who asked not to be named) who studied Quanzhen in China for a decade, he said to me that the nuns actually tend to have a more complete understanding of Daoism than most of the male Daoshi in the Longmen sect.

In terms of Daoist folkways, men and women tend to fit with Chinese social narratives, which places emphasis on the male as actor and female as object, or pseudo-actor.   Chinese cultural history has many admonitions against women coming to power, as is evidenced by the Dowager empress and Madame Mao, so my overall feeling is that Chinese patriarchy will go more or less unchallenged long into the future.

 

In regard to feminism and the relationship between women and men in Europe and North America, it is important to understand it in relation both to the Enlightenment age and to the overall effect of Marxist thought on equality movements.

The enlightenment essentially gave women the tools to demand equal social status to men and also gave them the technology to print documents on the subject.   The success of feminism in gaining the vote in America is directly commensurate with non land owners and African Americans getting the vote, it was a natural expansion of Liberty to all people, but of course we shouldn't forget the important effect of Sufrage in hastening the process.   The 1960s sexual revolution needs to be viewed in the context of both changes in social morality and Marxist creep, since Marxists ideologues played a very important role in the dissemination of what would become critical theory and Post Modernism, both of which are very important in the context of female liberation.    I think the recent silent return of many young women to more "traditional" ideas (The last time I checked, only 9% of women in the UK identify as feminist) is mainly to do with Neo-Marxist radicalism achieving a majority voice within the context of academic feminism.   I think basically most people disagree with identity politics, the gender movement has lost a lot of its social viability.

Another serious problem has been that in the drive to improve standards of life for women (which of course should be seen as a good thing), men have gotten left behind and are beginning to face serious inequality on a number of very important issues (access to public programs, unfair practices in family courts, and political demonization are three that instantly come to mind), so now we have a men's movement.

Now I tend to agree with David Shackleton that a new gender movement ought to start with a mutual giving of thanks between women and men.  Men ought to say to women "thank you for giving birth to us and nurturing us for the millions of years of our human existence. thank you for being our mothers, our daughters, our sisters and our friends."  and women ought to say to men "Thank you for protecting us and providing us through the millions of years of our human existence, thank you for being our fathers, brothers, and our friends," and then women and men should talk and cooperate together about the shape that the future of our mutual story should take.   Discussion, compromise, and eventual cooperation is what makes a society strong. Fighting, calling names, and being malevolent is the way to destroy society.  We should emphasize cooperation and mutually respectful progress together.

[juan]

Just wrapping up...

[juan]

So you mean that gender roles in society, the roles and functions of male and female, are imposed by biology?

 

Yes they are. 

 

In part of course -  the distinction between men and women is based on physiology - society's 'roles' are in part based on this e.g. the capacity for child bearing for instance and in part by an overlay of cultural attitudes to these fundamentals.

 

Of course only people living in a female body are able to gestate and breast. This biological fact imposes specific roles which can't be avoided. Gestating and breasting  can, obviosly, be performed by women only.

 

But this is where the list of roles imposed to women should end. On top of this, is not biology but societies which impose a series of additional ( and subordinate) roles to women. We have a wide scope, from Sweden to Saudi Arabia, of these additional, subordinate roles.

 

So what kind of women are we speaking about? Whatever may be concluded from this conversation, to which women will apply? Housewives in Morocco? Childless cougars working at executive posts in Berlin? Are the latter less "feminine" than the former? 

 

My point is that whatever differences/handicaps a person may find when they try to get into the Way, they would arise from psychological, and not biological  issues. How biology, and only biology, influences psychology, may be discussed. But the influences of each psychological trait (assertiveness, sweetness, whatever) should  be independently analysed, as they may be found both in men and women. IMHO, blanket statemens allocating specific traits to a person, based on the mere fact of wearing a male or female body are quite irrelevant.

[Apech]

Just wrapping up...

 

 

Good luck with wrapping up a DBs discussion

[Apech]

 

Of course only people living in a female body are able to gestate and breast. This biological fact imposes specific roles which can't be avoided. Gestating and breasting  can, obviosly, be performed by women only.

 

But this is where the list of roles imposed to women should end. On top of this, is not biology but societies which impose a series of additional ( and subordinate) roles to women. We have a wide scope, from Sweden to Saudi Arabia, of these additional, subordinate roles.

 

So what kind of women are we speaking about? Whatever may be concluded from this conversation, to which women will apply? Housewives in Morocco? Childless cougars working at executive posts in Berlin? Are the latter less "feminine" than the former? 

 

My point is that whatever differences/handicaps a person may find when they try to get into the Way, they would arise from psychological, and not biological  issues. How biology, and only biology, influences psychology, may be discussed. But the influences of each psychological trait (assertiveness, sweetness, whatever) should  be independently analysed, as they may be found both in men and women. IMHO, blanket statemens allocating specific traits to a person, based on the mere fact of wearing a male or female body are quite irrelevant.

 

 

 

I think you are a very abstract thinker - which shows in some of the ideas you express and examples you give.  You seem some way towards to post-modernist idea of gender as a social construct - but I am not sure if you have gone that far.  All I can say is that a lot of this kind of thinking conflates the idea (which I fully support) of individual freedom with the actualities of existence - for instance whether you are born a man or a woman.  

 

The historical subjugation of women is a feature of the middle historical period - not so much in the very ancient world - and thankfully not so much in the modern western liberal societies.  In between are some very oppressive and demeaning interpretations of what it means to be a woman.  I think these crimes against half (or more than half) of humanity have tainted the argument.

 

In terms of Daoist practice - or at least Qi Gong, Nei Dan and so on - energetic practices - differences are recognised because they have to be - on a very practical level the subtle body is slightly differently configured and so practices are adjusted to take this into account.

[Geof Nanto]

Well sometimes I think this site is nothing but trolls and sock puppets

 

This discussion has improved markedly as its progressed. Perhaps there is hope for Dao Bums after all.  

[al.]

Speaking in terms of Daoism, early Daoism does not clearly discuss the role of women, which makes sense, because China was and is a patriarchal society in which men are assumed to be actors and women are assumed to be objects (IE: passive).  This change in Chinese gendering really didn't change until Mao Zedong came to power and made women and men equal as producers.  Modern Chinese culture has regressed slightly in terms of equality, but I can only come to the conclusion that it is a tacit part of the social contract in which women choose to take advantage of traditional social roles within the framework of a competitive market economy.

 

Daoism changed radically with Quanzhen and Sun Buer who developed a line of nuns who have been historically treated as exactly equal to men.  In a conversation with a scholar (who asked not to be named) who studied Quanzhen in China for a decade, he said to me that the nuns actually tend to have a more complete understanding of Daoism than most of the male Daoshi in the Longmen sect.

In terms of Daoist folkways, men and women tend to fit with Chinese social narratives, which places emphasis on the male as actor and female as object, or pseudo-actor.   Chinese cultural history has many admonitions against women coming to power, as is evidenced by the Dowager empress and Madame Mao, so my overall feeling is that Chinese patriarchy will go more or less unchallenged long into the future.

 

In regard to feminism and the relationship between women and men in Europe and North America, it is important to understand it in relation both to the Enlightenment age and to the overall effect of Marxist thought on equality movements.

The enlightenment essentially gave women the tools to demand equal social status to men and also gave them the technology to print documents on the subject.   The success of feminism in gaining the vote in America is directly commensurate with non land owners and African Americans getting the vote, it was a natural expansion of Liberty to all people, but of course we shouldn't forget the important effect of Sufrage in hastening the process.   The 1960s sexual revolution needs to be viewed in the context of both changes in social morality and Marxist creep, since Marxists ideologues played a very important role in the dissemination of what would become critical theory and Post Modernism, both of which are very important in the context of female liberation.    I think the recent silent return of many young women to more "traditional" ideas (The last time I checked, only 9% of women in the UK identify as feminist) is mainly to do with Neo-Marxist radicalism achieving a majority voice within the context of academic feminism.   I think basically most people disagree with identity politics, the gender movement has lost a lot of its social viability.

Another serious problem has been that in the drive to improve standards of life for women (which of course should be seen as a good thing), men have gotten left behind and are beginning to face serious inequality on a number of very important issues (access to public programs, unfair practices in family courts, and political demonization are three that instantly come to mind), so now we have a men's movement.

Now I tend to agree with David Shackleton that a new gender movement ought to start with a mutual giving of thanks between women and men.  Men ought to say to women "thank you for giving birth to us and nurturing us for the millions of years of our human existence. thank you for being our mothers, our daughters, our sisters and our friends."  and women ought to say to men "Thank you for protecting us and providing us through the millions of years of our human existence, thank you for being our fathers, brothers, and our friends," and then women and men should talk and cooperate together about the shape that the future of our mutual story should take.   Discussion, compromise, and eventual cooperation is what makes a society strong. Fighting, calling names, and being malevolent is the way to destroy society.  We should emphasize cooperation and mutually respectful progress together.

 

For further reading, I highly recommend this book:

 

Francis Fukuyama - The Origins of Political Order

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Origins-Political-Order-Prehuman-Revolution/dp/1846682576

 

If we do not have an understanding of the political situation of ancient China, or of any other era, it is difficult to fully comprehend gender roles. (Unless we are only dealing with the realm of ideals and recluses living outside of society)

 

As mentioned in the above post, the laws surrounding land ownership and marriage are key to looking at how men and women balance power in their community.

 

There has been much reference to the Yi Jing and Yin-Yang in this thread. Although these things are part of Daoism, they are also the foundation of Confucianism too, which has probably in general had a greater impact on the structuring of traditional Chinese society and therefore on gender roles too.

[Kara_mia]

For further reading, I highly recommend this book:

 

Francis Fukuyama - The Origins of Political Order

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Origins-Political-Order-Prehuman-Revolution/dp/1846682576

 

If we do not have an understanding of the political situation of ancient China, or of any other era, it is difficult to fully comprehend gender roles. (Unless we are only dealing with the realm of ideals and recluses living outside of society)

 

As mentioned in the above post, the laws surrounding land ownership and marriage are key to looking at how men and women balance power in their community.

 

There has been much reference to the Yi Jing and Yin-Yang in this thread. Although these things are part of Daoism, they are also the foundation of Confucianism too, which has probably in general had a greater impact on the structuring of traditional Chinese society and therefore on gender roles too.

 

Wow, thanks a lot! I will try to get that book from the Amazon.

 

I believe, understanding Yin-Yang interaction is the key to understanding gender roles - a correct order and balance of these forces is a keystone in having harmonious relationship and being happy. Unfortunately, a well and truly great and happy marriage has gone very rare nowadays. Even meaningful relationships are becoming more and rarer.

 

There is a power dynamics that exist between men and women similar to Yin –Yang dynamics. Woman’s part of relationship role lies in testing her man. What is testing? For example, a woman says something outlandish just to get a reaction from a man and tries to put him on the defensive.

 

Many men do not understand female psyche and the drives behind such behavior. And it’s actually pretty simple and straightforward. A female behavior is driven by a Quest to get the matching Potency. Why matching - because woman senses it naturally, feels it in her bone if a man is a good/appropriate match for her or not. And Potency - because therein lies her function as a female to provide for future potency and strong generation/offspring. 

 

This means that a woman will test the same guy throughout the whole relationship in order to proof his potency or if we look from the energy point of view how strong/vigorous/ fool-blooded he is. A woman needs to feel safe knowing that her beau in fact is a man with a backbone, and when needed, can support her. That’s what a woman really wants – to feel safe knowing her man can take care of her. This is true for all women, no matter their background and class.    

 

Hence, it is set in our genes/bones that we test our men every now and then to check how potent they are. Thus, man should behave like alpha-man, strong and potent, i.e. like a boss. A man should be the Boss, not a woman. This is the Law of Universe, i.e. the Natural Law of Yin and Yang - the feminine and masculine principle of Life.

 

[SeekerOfHealing]

No, aspect man-women is purely biological. All talk with yin and yang and stuff like this is unrealistic in the world we are living. Girls like to chase dreams but this kind of spiritual stories are just to get laid. Men creates them just to get laid - remember that. The body is only to eat, shit, procreate and die - that's all. The whole other dimension which is non physical is much different, you still talking about taji and mentality of taji but it does not matter. Practice qigong with your partner and you will be having good sex and healthy life but it's still just enhancement for basic biology, not neidan. Your energy and mind (xing-ming) needs go beyond the physical and shi shen - then you start real cultivation which will last over lifetimes.

 

It's not hard to understand but for women is very hard to put down attachment to the emotions.

Edited January 4, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[[email protected]]

This means that a woman will test the same guy throughout the whole relationship in order to proof his potency or if we look from the energy point of view how strong/vigorous/ fool-blooded he is. A woman needs to feel safe knowing that her beau in fact is a man with a backbone, and when needed, can support her. That’s what a woman really wants – to feel safe knowing her man can take care of her. This is true for all women, no matter their background and class.

And I thought, what is wrong with me - every time I feel the partner is trying to put some control... its all about testing!

Thanks a lot, now I know what is the reason 

[dawei]

It's not hard to understand but for women is very hard to put down attachment to the emotions.

 

Women are the canopy... men are the can-o-shit...  

 

China was originally matriarch... but succumbed to warrior type men...

 

it is not wonder the Confucians extolled the "Sage-King" era... and Zhuangzi said that was a period where 'they left the dao'... 

[SeekerOfHealing]

The thing is in matriarchy you end up being as product or animal for women entertainment. Matriarchy is gynocentric which means that men are only means to the end of women, it's not their fault this is creation of nature. Biology dynamics etc.

 

I suggest to drop all of those Matriarchy and Patriarchy crap and focus on cultivation true reality when those things just do not exist.

 

No matter what situation you will be it will be not satisfying position for human nature which is yearning to connect with Dao as it will be always limited experience.

 

For example if you want dominant women who is successful and somehow she will want to be with you, you will be limited one way or another and not satisfied even if you thought you always wanted a women like that quick reality check will tell you that after fascination goes down she will find another pray as she is not limited to men as it been in old time when women was generally property of various men.

 

and here we go other side, the loyal women who got probably beaten up by life, poor family, problems - finds love and gets very attached but can we say it's really sincere? It's emotions play, puppy play that melts heart. It's feels good yes, but... it's not this also, you still will feel that empty one way or another.

Edited January 4, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[dawei]

The thing is in matriarchy you end up being as product or animal for women entertainment. Matriarchy is gynocentric which means that men are only means to the end of women, it's not their fault this is creation of nature. Biology dynamics etc.

 

I suggest to drop all of those Matriarchy and Patriarchy crap and focus on cultivation true reality when those things just do not exist.

 

No matter what situation you will be it will be not satisfying position for human nature which is yearning to connect with Dao as it will be always limited experience.

 

For example if you want dominant women who is successful and somehow she will want to be with you, you will be limited one way or another and not satisfied even if you thought you always wanted a women like that quick reality check will tell you that after fascination goes down she will find another pray as she is not limited to men as it been in old time when women was generally property of various men.

 

and here we go other side, the loyal women who got probably beaten up by life, poor family, problems - finds love and gets very attached but can we say it's really sincere? It's emotions play, puppy play that melts heart. It's feels good yes, but... it's not this also, you still will feel that empty one way or another.

 

Focus on cultivation true reality ???    that sounds like more entertainment

 

Any seeking, wanting, desiring, path enriching... it is all our own entertainment...  no wonder Wu Wei is so hard to understand

[SeekerOfHealing]

focusing on cultivation true reality means entering wu wei which means going beyond social constructs, matriarchy or patriarchy.

 

Wu Wei is just not clinging, when you not clinging you are wu wei.

[dawei]

focusing on cultivation true reality means entering wu wei which means going beyond social constructs, matriarchy or patriarchy. Wu Wei is just not clinging, when you not clinging you are wu wei.

 

I get that.. it is kind of the paradox of cultivation... for what's it worth: I never heard the word 'cultivate' for my first 10 years of energy work... only follow the nature of the energy flowing... follow what you are doing or feeling interacting with...  so the word kind of makes me smile now...  cuz it tends to carry some connotation of 'doing'.

 

I once read the words of Baopuzi who said, 'practice is not natural'....   While I did not recognize the word 'cultivate', I did understand the concept of 'practice'... So I stopped 'practice' and went back to the core of follow and reside and flow with energy.. and it has moved me along much faster than I ever imagined...  but I would say, that is simply my karmic path.  If another tells me of their path, I can only try to help them within their path and destiny.   All the talk of traditions, practices, paths are very individual, IMO...  I don't wish any path on another other than their own path...

[SeekerOfHealing]

Cultivating means like cultivation of the vegetables - you are not doing nothing besides making atmosphere for growth in right time, place and way - the process is wu wei, you are doing nothing.

 

Doing is only related to create right kind of ambiance or ground - the process of growing is natural (wu wei)

 

You did not grow this body by stretching, you did nothing (wu wei) but just create space by providing proper nutrition, water etc. which results in growing.

 

Same with spiritual cultivation you doing nothing beside creating right surrounding inside to growth happen by it's own nature.

Edited January 4, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[dawei]

Same with spiritual cultivation you doing nothing beside creating right surrounding inside to growth happen by it's own nature.

 

There is a reason one can Wu Wei...  and others are doing and creating more...    and it is not about "You doing nothing..."