PhD Evgeny A.Torchinov - greatest Russian scientist.

[Pavel Karavaev]

Evgeny Torchinov is well known for many Russian people interested in Daoism.

 

Many people that I know appreciate his work and respectful respond about the outstanding personality of their author.

 

Recently, at one of the topics discussed at the forum, professor Torchinov  was called an amateur by Taoist Texts.

 

Therefore, the reason I decided to open a separate topic to introduce the name of Evgeny Torchinov for all members of thedaobums forum:

 

 

_{==============================================================================================}

 

Professor Evgeny A. Torchinov, Ph.D., D.Sc., was The Head of the Department of Oriental Philosophy and Cultural Studies (1998-2003) at St. Petersburg State University in Russia.

 

He was born on 22 August 1956 in the city of Ordzhonikidze (now Vladikavkaz). His interest in Chinese culture, beginning when he was 13 years old, determined his future life and career. As a university student he studied Chinese philosophy and religion generally, but then added in special topics such as Daoist alchemy, Tantric yoga, Yogacara Idealism, Kabbalah and Jewish mysticism, and transpersonal studies.

 

Professor Evgeny Torchinov was a tireless, painstaking, and prolific scholar, proficient in a variety of languages. Since 1980, he published over 120 articles and several books (in Russian, Chinese, and English). His productivity is all the more remarkable given the meager support and resources available for scholarship in Russia. With the fall of the Soviet regime and its restrictions on travel, professor Torchinov participated in conferences in China, Hong Kong, France, Israel, Germany, Japan, and Finland, as well as fulfilling lecture appointments in Israel and Canada.

 

Evgeny Torchinov died on 12 July 2003. His many colleagues in Russia and around the world were stunned by his premature death. The loss of Evgeny Torchinov is a big loss for all who cherish the memory of this exceptional colleague his erudition, dedication, kindness, enthusiasm, warmth, humor, and humanity.

 

©(Shapiro S. I., Soidla T. R. The Fire Passes on: Evgeny A. Torchinov: A Tribute (1956-2003) // Journal of Transpersonal Psychology. Vol. 35, 2 (2003). P. 83-84.)

 

==================================================================================

 

Professor Torchinov made a lot of great translations of classical texts of Daoist alchemy.

 

He always tried to treat the Daoist tradition as a coherent whole, and paid much attention to various aspects of the history of Daoism, and the various aspects of his teachings.

 

 In addition, in the interpretation of Daoist treatises professor Torchinov relied not only classical commentaries, but also relied the later esoteric and alchemical tradition commentaries.

 

 

 

I hope that now I clear the good name of Evgeny A.Torchinov. And now all forum members know more about the greatest expert respected by all Daoists in Russia (without exceptions)  and around the world.

_______________

 Sincerely, Pavel K.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Pavel Karavaev

[Brian]

Scientist???

[effilang]

I don't mean to be rude, but it seems like there has been an organised consensus among your schools members to register on this board in the past week and open up a new thread every time you want to make a new point on something.

 

Often you will gang up on one person who doesn't agree with your views. What's with that mentality? As if your arguments are stronger in numbers or something?

 

The whole Daoist section is turning into a Wuliu Pai forum, with every other thread being started with the aim of discrediting another member on the board...

 

Isn't it possible for your school members to be a little more organised and use 1 or 2 threads to post Wuliu related things, as opposed to 10?

 

It's easier to keep track for starters.

Edited December 15, 2016 by effilang

[effilang]

Scientist???

Not just, Brian. He is also the "greatest" Russian scientist of them all.

Edited December 15, 2016 by effilang

[Pavel Karavaev]

I don't think E.A.Torchinov is related to WuLiupai School in any way. This thread is not to blame someone or say someone is wrong but to tell forum members a little bit about the Taoist Researcher I greatly respect.

 

By the way are there Wuzhenpian or Baopuzi translations into English? If not I can try to translate some exсerpts from E.A.Torchinov's translations here.

 

Sincerely, Pavel K.

[effilang]

I appreciate that, Pavel. Thank you. I just wanted to voice my opinion of what seems to be an emerging trend; one I don't really find conducive to overall harmony in the forum, but those are just my feelings : )

 

Most of the new Wuliu members that joined recently have a different grade and air about them to those that were previously active here, now temporarily banned I believe, so I'm pleased with your arrivals, especially that of AAK, who has facilitated very productive debates thus far.

 

I think there are already translations, but its always interesting to see new interpretations. Please share.

Edited December 15, 2016 by effilang

[thelerner]

In celebrating the man, can you point to anything he's pioneered?  What made him great?  Any particular aspects of Taoism did he work on and try to spread?   To what extent is he the Russian 'Thomas Cleary' who is reknown for translating many Taoist and Buddhists classics into English. 

 

Is there any special specific philosophy or practice that he wanted the world to know? 

[damdao]

Scientist???

If you are not being ironic, yes, when a person works in an academic field (even humanities) he is called scientist.

 

Some links:

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Taoism/external_and_internal.html

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Taoism/science_and_magic.html

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Taoism/Mystfem.html

I am trying to find a paper about the ling that was outstanding.

 

Russel Kirkland mentions him in his Aknowledgments in Taoism the Enduring Tradition, an excellent book.

In general, knowledge of Russian scientist (in Buddhism and Daoism) is very rewarding. I realize it many years ago studying India-related topics in college. The problem is that they write in Russian 

[Arkady Shadursky]

Wow! That is great!
I didn't know that some of Torchinov's works are translated to English.
Thank you damdao.

Do you know probably if his Ge Hong translations also ever been translated to English?
---
Arkady

[damdao]

Wow! That is great!

I didn't know that some of Torchinov's works are translated to English.

Thank you damdao.

 

Do you know probably if his Ge Hong translations also ever been translated to English?

---

Arkady

 

This book is amazing

http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520230347

Is a translation of the hagiographies of the immortals. Full of notes discussing chinese terms, translations. historical data, etc.

There is (or was) a translation of the Baopuzi by James Ward, but is har to find and I dont know its accuracy or the edition. 

[Brian]

If you are not being ironic, yes, when a person works in an academic field (even humanities) he is called scientist.

 

Some links:

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Taoism/external_and_internal.html

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Taoism/science_and_magic.html

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Taoism/Mystfem.html

I am trying to find a paper about the ling that was outstanding.

 

Russel Kirkland mentions him in his Aknowledgments in Taoism the Enduring Tradition, an excellent book.

In general, knowledge of Russian scientist (in Buddhism and Daoism) is very rewarding. I realize it many years ago studying India-related topics in college. The problem is that they write in Russian

Is that really Russian convention, that anyone who works in any academic field is properly referred to as a scientist?

 

How curious.

 

<shrug>

 

Learn something new every day, I guess!

[damdao]

Is that really Russian convention, that anyone who works in any academic field is properly referred to as a scientist?

 

How curious.

 

<shrug>

 

Learn something new every day, I guess!

 

I am not Russian!

So the convention is more extended, I think.

This is a little off topic, but I want to know.

How do you call someone doing research in asian studies? Or sociology?

I thought it is social scientist or something like that.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Is that really Russian convention, that anyone who works in any academic field is properly referred to as a scientist?

 

How curious.

 

<shrug>

 

Learn something new every day, I guess!

 

Actually, they are probably referred to by a Russian word that can be translated as "scientist", but does not have all of the connotations that "scientist"  does in English in general, much less American English specifically.  Whether it is a holdover from the older Czarist era, or a Soviet innovation, only a Russian could tell us, perhaps a Russian Social Scientist.

 

 

(Damdao made his post while I was writing the above, I had already made the suggestion of a Social Scientist, in regard to such fields as anthropology, etc., and based on what he says it may be a wider convention, but here we get into the whole business of connotations of words, and their sociatal contexts, too big a subject to deal with here.)

[Brian]

I am not Russian!

So the convention is more extended, I think.

This is a little off topic, but I want to know.

How do you call someone doing research in asian studies? Or sociology?

I thought it is social scientist or something like that.

Yeah, there is a trend towards putting aodifier in front of the word "science" or "scientist" to make something sound more... I don't know... Rigorous? We see it with "engineer" as well, where a garbage collector might be called a "sanitation engineer," for instance. The term scientist (or engineer) by itself is generally reserved for those who have received degrees (or licensure) in a science (or engineering) field. I'd never seen a philosopher, translator historian or theologian referred to as a "scientist" before, though.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Yeah, there is a trend towards putting aodifier in front of the word "science" or "scientist" to make something sound more... I don't know... Rigorous? We see it with "engineer" as well, where a garbage collector might be called a "sanitation engineer," for instance. The term scientist (or engineer) by itself is generally reserved for those who have received degrees (or licensure) in a science (or engineering) field. I'd never seen a philosopher, translator historian or theologian referred to as a "scientist" before, though.

 

Since this whole business seem to be continuing, and I have had some time to think about the matter and its wider cultural significance, it is definitely not a new a new thing, but goes back to the older sense of "science" as "knowledge", from its Latin root scientia, which originally meant knowledge in general and survives in such terms as "occult science", which most American English speakers, and a lot of British, would consider an oxymoron, and goes back to the Nineteenth Century.  The German Wissenshaft is a useful comparison:

 

Wissenschaft is the German language term for any study or science that involves systematic research. Wissenschaft incorporates science, learning, knowledge, scholarship and implies that knowledge is a dynamic process discoverable for oneself, rather than something that is handed down. It did not necessarily imply empirical research.

Wissenschaft was the official ideology of German Universities during the 19th century. It emphasised the unity of teaching and individual research or discovery for the student. It suggests that education is a process of growing and becoming.

Some 19th century Americans visiting German universities interpreted Wissenschaft as meaning "pure science," untainted by social purposes and opposed to the liberal arts.

Some contemporary scientists and philosophers interpret Wissenschaft as meaning any true knowledge or successful method, including philosophical, mathematical, and logical knowledge and methods.

(Wikipedia article on Wissenshaft, Empahsis mine, ZYD)

 

Even the the early Nineteenth Century what would now be called "science" was "Natural Philosophy", and I suspect that the problem arose with Hegel, who considered that his Hegelian "Wissenshaft" made philosophy obsolete.  The so-called young Hegelians, the most influential of which was probably Karl Marx, tended to leave out Hegel's metaphysics, and replace it with the revived Epicureanism championed by Diderot and Baron D'Holbach in the previous Century.  In the U.S. the misconception mentioned above led to the separation of the "Sciences", in particular Physics and Chemistry as "hard" science from the Humanities.  In the U.S. the study of Asian religions would be in the Humanities department, such "soft" sciences as Sociology and Psychology being uneasily in between, with Biology, especially as it has developed in the Twentieth Century, like the bed which Goldilocks choose, somewhere in the middle of hard and soft science, originally starting as purely descriptive, with the addition of genetics, etc. it has become more like the "hard" experimental sciences.

 

So really it seems that the modern use of "science" in English is the result of a more recent constriction of its meaning, and its application to other types of "knowledge" being the older and wider usage.

 

I hope this is helpful.

 

ZYD

[Pavel Karavaev]

In celebrating the man, can you point to anything he's pioneered?  What made him great?  Any particular aspects of Taoism did he work on and try to spread?   To what extent is he the Russian 'Thomas Cleary' who is reknown for translating many Taoist and Buddhists classics into English. 

 

Is there any special specific philosophy or practice that he wanted the world to know? 

 

I very appreciate your interest.  

In my own words I can add here few important points about E.A.Torchinov works:

1. He was the first  from Russian sinology who insisted on the integrity of the internal Daoist doctrine (without dividing it into the so-called "philosophical" and "religious" Daoism, as it is accepted in the scientific community).

    

2. Torchinov paid much attention to various issues: the history of Daoism; the problems of the origin of Daoism and periodization of its history; the interaction between Daoism and Chinese culture;  the Daoist cosmogony; Daoism and ritual; Daoist-Buddhist interaction; Daoism interaction  with the government, with the imperial power and the people's beliefs;  and others.

    

   This methodological framework and extensive knowledge allowed Torchinov to get  deep and more holistic understanding of the Daoist sources, and make his own extensive and unique comments. It is interesting to note that he devoted almost 20 years to research the treatise Baopuzi of Ge Hong! And he paid special attention to the practical side of Daoism and Inner Alchemy as a the core of the Daoist doctrine.

    

3. The most important fact is that his works were not just scientific papers, he was trying to write his books the way many people could understand. And that is why his works became something like "cultural bridge" for many people who are striving to find the Way. Through his books audience could get deep insight and immerse to Daoist Tradition, the Chinese culture and Oriental culture as a whole.

The 3-rd point for me is the most valuable.

 

As Wikipedia says:

 

Torchinov made contributions to Taoism studies and translation of classical Taoist treatises. In his doctoral thesis he provided a detailed review of Taoism, its history, schools and concepts, relying on Chinese sources and global sinology. Later, he had the Taoist review published as a monograph aimed for non-specialist audience.

Many of Torchinov's publications give an insight into the practical aspects of Taoism such as Outer Alchemy, Inner Alchemy, meditation techniques, afterlife techniques, and esoteric sex practices.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evgeny_Torchinov

 

 

­­­____________

Sincery, Pavel K.

[Taomeow]

In celebrating the man, can you point to anything he's pioneered?  What made him great?  Any particular aspects of Taoism did he work on and try to spread?   To what extent is he the Russian 'Thomas Cleary' who is reknown for translating many Taoist and Buddhists classics into English. 

 

Is there any special specific philosophy or practice that he wanted the world to know? 

 

Surely you don't mean Cleary -- perhaps you wanted to ask if he's the Russian Joseph Needham?

 

If the answer is "yes," then of course he would qualify as the towering height of most fundamental scholarly work on Chinese civilization in general and taoism in particular.  Cleary is just a prolific translator.  (Although "just" does not quite do justice to his effort, and I don't mean to belittle his contribution in any way.)  I've read some Torchinov years ago, but I would have to refresh my memory and systematize my currently rather sketchy picture before voicing an opinion.  I suspect Needham still stands peerless among the world's sinologists...  if it turns out I'm wrong, I'll report back on new findings. 

[dwai]

Is that really Russian convention, that anyone who works in any academic field is properly referred to as a scientist?

 

How curious.

 

<shrug>

 

Learn something new every day, I guess!

 

Actually the study of humanities, anthropology etc is often labeled "soft science" -- http://www.dictionary.com/browse/soft-science

[Andrei]

 

I don't think E.A.Torchinov is related to WuLiupai School in any way. 

 

 

 

Hmmm, I don't want to show any disrespect towards any of you or the memory of the professor Torchinov but these are facts, so to me it seems a very close relationship with Wu Liu Pai. Actually the traditional school from Russia it was founded by the professor D.A. Artemiev which is the disciple of prof. Torchinov.

 

 

From internet, I don't want to give the link, if you use google you'll find it:

 

Evgeny Torchinov’s follower Dmitry Artemyev, resumed the tradition of professional translations of texts on Taoist alchemy. As a true disciple of his master, he mastered Chinese in a highly professional way, and with the help of his knowledge on traditional alchemical practices, discussed in detail some important points of Taoist alchemy and published his translations of selections from the texts of the Patriarchs on the Eastern Portal (oriental.ru) during the 2003-2006. The purpose was to spread the teaching of Dao, but it was clear that the swindlers wouldn’t miss such a titbit.

[Brian]

Thank you, Pavel, for creating this thread, and to everyone who has contributed! I had never heard of this great man before.

[LaoZiDao]

Hmmm, I don't want to show any disrespect towards any of you or the memory of the professor Torchinov but these are facts, so to me it seems a very close relationship with Wu Liu Pai. Actually the traditional school from Russia it was founded by the professor D.A. Artemiev which is the disciple of prof. Torchinov.

 

 

From internet, I don't want to give the link, if you use google you'll find it:

E.A.Torchinov has no relation to WLP..

 

D.A.Artemyev does, sure. But this thread is about E.A.Torchinov. who was not a student of WLP as I understand.

 

Not sure what point you're trying to make anyway..

Edited December 17, 2016 by LaoZiDao

[damdao]

(...) I suspect Needham still stands peerless among the world's sinologists...  if it turns out I'm wrong, I'll report back on new findings. 

 

The contribution made by Needham is one of the greatest, I am trying some day to have enough time in order to read some of his research in spagyrics and neidan.

Have we a thread about him?

He even went to the point of suggesting that the Emerald Tablet is of Chinese origin (a real fan of Chinese civilization and Daoism), and I think that in his time the Tratise on the Great One from Guodian mss was unknown.

[Kara_mia]

Dear Pavel,

 

Many thanks for opening such an interesting and valuable thread! It was a pleasure to read.

[Pavel Karavaev]

Hmmm, I don't want to show any disrespect towards any of you or the memory of the professor Torchinov but these are facts, so to me it seems a very close relationship with Wu Liu Pai. Actually the traditional school from Russia it was founded by the professor D.A. Artemiev which is the disciple of prof. Torchinov.

 

 

From internet, I don't want to give the link, if you use google you'll find it:

 

In this qoute, the term "disciple" used in another sense - a student, an university student.

 

Sincerely, Pavel.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Pavel Karavaev

[A.A.Khokhlov]

E.A.Torchinov was a genius of 20 century. There were no computers, no internet, no electronic dictionaries. The process of translation was:

 

1) See a new term.

2) Manually seek for it in 20 (and more) different dictionary books (real books).

3) If some of dictionary entries are not clear - seek for its terms' descriptions and so on.

4) Go to China to find rare dictionaries to take back home.

5) Communicate in China with Chinese researchers asking for their explanation of some parts of text...

6) Repeat pp.1-5 more and more.

 

Nowadays almost any person can call himself a translator, only having a computer (howevery, with lack of translation quality and numerous mistakes).

 

But E.A.Torchinov and other translators of previous century - were greatest professionals without any doubts. And they deserve great respect from every modern translator and daoist.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

Edited December 20, 2016 by A.A.Khokhlov