Cinnabar

[thelerner]

On the recent thread on E.A.Torchinov, there were two PDF's that mentioned cinnabar.  Interesting stuff.   Frankly I don't know cinnabar from cinnamon though one is good on coffee and the other can kill you.. and is reputed to have killed a few earnest Taoists as well as an emperor.  

 

Its a reddish ore, high in mercury.   Did alchemists east and west try using it?   West in there quest to create gold from lead, Taoist trying to create an immortality pill?

 

Were the old Taoists trying to create such a pill or was it mis-translating a code/poet descriptions for inner cultivation?   

 

What are the modern thoughts, if any on cinnabar?

 

addon> googling around.  I didn't realize cinnabar is another word for dan tien. http://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/dantian.html interesting

 

..The same passage shows that the appellation "cinnabar" originally derives from the red color of the innermost part of the dantian, with no direct relation to the mineral cinnabar or to the elixir. [See a translation of this passage.]

Edited December 15, 2016 by thelerner
asked question, then began googling myself

[Kar3n]

I first read cinnabar as Cinnabon.

 

I had to look up cinnabar, it was a mystery to me too.

[Ormus]

This is related to real Alchemy.......Wai Dan in laboratory.And yes it is the same as western Alchemy of Philosopher Stone which is Red in color and like powder.Cinnabar is just code name because this powder looks like Cinnabar in nature.Thos who are not initiated use Cinnabar because they dont know what is Materia Prima.Real Alchemy dont use native Mercury nor Lead this are just code words for Materia Prima in certain stages of transmutation.

 

I see that even Chinese today dont uderstand what Immortal Master Ge Hong write about Wai Dan.

 

Nei Dan comes some 1000 years later,when Wai Dan was occulted,so we speak about spiritual Immortality by producing Yang Shen,and no one speak that actualy Wai Dan give Immortality of the phisical body(Di Xian) which give you time as long as you like to be on earth.When you injest the powder you are fusing Ming and Xing in second and this is great schock.

 

I belived that as Tai Qing Pai is gone that Tian Shi Pai or Ling Bao Pai recived such teachings but I didnt find that today thei know to operate Wai Dan.There are some references about Wai Dan in Shang Qing Pai corupus and also Nanzong Pai, and in Longmen Pai(Jingai Shan lineage).

 

Ormus

[thelerner]

Quotes from EA Torchino's works mentioned- http://www.kheper.net/topics/Taoism/science_and_magic.html

 

"This paper is dedicated to the problem of the attitudes of the great Chinese alchemist Ge Hong (284-363 or 283-343 CE) towards science within the frame of his Daoist world view..

 

..In chapter 4th (Jin dan) of the BPZNP he states that drugs made from minerals and metallic substances are much more useful than the herbal ones. The herbal drugs are weak and the strong heat destroys them but minerals and metals are strong and stable: for example, the heat can not destroy cinnabar which changes itself into the «water silver», or mercury. After this statement, Ge Hong notes that ordinary people do not know even such simple things as the origin of the cinnabar (Hg S) in the mercury.  They say that cinnabar is red and the mercury is white and so, it is impossible that the white substance produces the red one.

 

The second aspect of this passage is more interesting. Ge Hong declares that the common people («worldly people», or shi ren) are ignorant even of such things as the nature of the cinnabar and so, it is not surprising that they do not believe in such subtle things as the way of immortality.

 

I think that this Ge Hong’s statement has crucial character for understanding of his attitude towards the connections between the Daoist «mystics» of immortality and the «positive» knowledge: for him the Daoist teachings about the immortals and the practices of the obtaining of immortality and supernatural powers have no mystical, or irrational characters at all. They have no less «positive» nature than medicine or chemical knowledge about the composition of cinnabar and other substances. And if it is true, this knowledge is very different (and even opposite in nature) from the superstitious beliefs in popular gods and spirits with their shamanistic bloody and expensive rites and the ways of worship."

 

from the first pdf mentioned-

3. Ge Hong enumerates the following aims of  the shou yi practices: protection from demoniac attacks and influences, protection from armed enemies, protection from ilness and infections. Therefore, it can be supposed that the function of these practices is purely protective. But some passages from chapter 18 of BPZNP relate the contemplative techniques of the Preservation of the One to the leading theme of Ge Hong’s discourse (i.e., obtaining of longevity and immortality). For example:

«The only method of the prolongation of life and attainment of the state of immortal is but the way of Gold and Cinnabar; the only method to preserve one’s body and to cut off  the evil influences is [contemplation] of the True One. Therefore the ancients extremely seriously treated such affairs.»

[Ormus]

Can you post as attachments or give links for those pdfs?

 

Immortal Master Ge Hong  favored Wai Dan regarding Immortality,but also he acceted solo and paired cultivation methods as good but not so fast and efetive as Wai Dan.

 

Ormus

[Wu Ming Jen]

Cinnabar is the energy of open consciousness with in fire knowledge in the realm of the human mind.  

 

Lead is  rectitude with in water this is real knowledge which is mind of Tao or shining mind.

 

Once you know them you can gather them quickly.

 

Red cinnabar fire, bright outside, dark inside. Black lead, dark outside. light inside (modes of consciousness). These are both non physical lead and cinnabar.

 

We need to fire these two and refine them. Firing is attention sooo many firing process that cover every angle to be sure the furnace of attention is not too hot or too cold.

 

These process are closely related to Tai Chi Chuan and the internal martial arts of old. 

Edited December 16, 2016 by Wu Ming Jen

[Ormus]

Dear Wu Ming Jen,

 

yes I know.You speak about terminology as used in Nei Dan and I was refering to the oldest tradition of Wai Dan.

 

Ormus

[Taomeow]

Red cinnabar fire, bright outside, dark inside. Black lead, dark outside. light inside (modes of consciousness). These are both non physical lead and cinnabar.

 

In the West we have the ignoble tradition of Paracelsus, a lunatic driven insane by neurotoxic fumes of the mercury mine where he worked in his youth, surviving to this day in our very own (well, not really...) alchemical endeavors -- mercury compounds (Thimerosal) are in every vaccine, and in most teeth ever drilled by dentists, and it's been hundreds of years since the last time a human body remained uncontaminated by mercury.  Hard to tell how different our history could have been if it wasn't for this brain- and nerve- and bone- and kidneys- and liver- and immune-system derailing infatuation.

 

I doubt that waidan ever preceded neidan anywhere -- we knew  the inside of our bodies hundreds of thousands of years before we learned (or, more likely, were forced) to mine for minerals and manipulate the outside forces to tweak with the inside of our body.  But that's a different topic...

 

Cinnabar of neidan stands for many things, but primarily of course for Fire, not limited in any way to the material Fire, or even the Sun, but Fire of wuxing, a phase of qi and a particular time in the cosmic process (Growth) and quite a lot of other stuff.  CInnabar of waidan is --

well, I have a cinnabar bracelet and an antique cinnabar bottle for (in all likelihood) opium, and they are both pretty.  People should have stopped there with waidanning this substance far as I'm concerned.   

Edited December 16, 2016 by Taomeow

[thelerner]

Can you post as attachments or give links for those pdfs?

 

Immortal Master Ge Hong  favored Wai Dan regarding Immortality,but also he acceted solo and paired cultivation methods as good but not so fast and efetive as Wai Dan.

 

Ormus

from damdao- http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42798-phd-evgeny-atorchinov-greatest-russian-scientist/?p=725746

 

..

Some links:

http://www.kheper.ne...d_internal.html

http://www.kheper.ne..._and_magic.html

http://www.kheper.ne...sm/Mystfem.html

[Brian]

In the West we have the ignoble tradition of Paracelsus, a lunatic driven insane by neurotoxic fumes of the mercury mine where he worked in his youth, surviving to this day in our very own (well, not really...) alchemical endeavors -- mercury compounds (Thimerosal) are in every vaccine, and in most teeth ever drilled by dentists, and it's been hundreds of years since the last time a human body remained uncontaminated by mercury. Hard to tell how different our history could have been if it wasn't for this brain- and nerve- and bone- and kidneys- and liver- and immune-system derailing infatuation.

 

I doubt that waidan ever preceded neidan anywhere -- we knew the inside of our bodies hundreds of thousands of years before we learned (or, more likely, were forced) to mine for minerals and manipulate the outside forces to tweak with the inside of our body. But that's a different topic...

 

Cinnabar of neidan stands for many things, but primarily of course for Fire, not limited in any way to the material Fire, or even the Sun, but Fire of wuxing, a phase of qi and a particular time in the cosmic process (Growth) and quite a lot of other stuff. CInnabar of waidan is --

well, I have a cinnabar bracelet and an antique cinnabar bottle for (in all likelihood) opium, and they are both pretty. People should have stopped there with waidanning this substance far as I'm concerned.

We humans do like to spend our time looking for shortcuts, don't we?

[Taomeow]

We humans do like to spend our time looking for shortcuts, don't we?

 

 I think it's the AI that always looks for shortcuts.  It's a design feature of the machine to act this way, comes with the territory.  To be a good machine you have to be efficient.  Nature does not work like that, nature is guided by a whole host of principles of which efficiency is not the number one concern by far.  So many wasteful rains and pointlessly breathtaking sunsets!

 

Humans serving the almighty AI are merely in the monkey see monkey do mode, have been taught a bunch of circus tricks to perform on cue and forgot how to do anything else. 

 

Not my circus, not my monkeys. 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

 

I hear what you're saying TM, but in a way i think shortcuts are one our best discoveries. Allow me a flight of thought

 

When people havent gone the "long way 'round" is its pointless to try and look for a shortcut.

How can you make a journey more effective if you dont know the destination, area or even have an half decent map?

Experience tells me it'll end up being walking in a long circle while being under the impression of traveling straight

 

Shortcuts are the maps. What we teach the next generation, informing them on their long route and when they pass their maps on they will have condensed their journey to a shortcut for their heirs, who will travel using it as reference and by it blaze the trails of their long route.

 

I'm not saying any of the journeys are progressively becoming shorter or more efficient generation after generation, but when somebody shows us the way and it's pitfalls that is as close to a shortcut we get. If they werent we'd end up reinventing the toothbrush twice daily as a minimum.

People who arent willing to accept the offered shortcut and instead wish to skip the necessary bits to will a certain result into existence are bound to invent a new way, a new map and quite possibly never reach their invented (and non-existing?) destination, traveling in circles over and over.

 

I feel this might be just arguing semantics...

but i agree: screw the circus.

It's all a very large spectacle or simulacra designed to provide an overwhelming, non-participatory experience to distract us from the fact that our bones, breath and blood are the fuel in that large machine. Human beings are the oldest currency in the world.

I hope that in the end i'll have spent myself to my own advantage as well rather than only someone elses.

[Wu Ming Jen]

The Wai Dan clan developed gunpowder, perfumes, mass producing steel using the bellows and countless inventions. Those who toyed with applying Wei Dan to internal alchemy resulted in many deaths.

 

This approach may have rubbed off on modern pharmaceuticals. 

[SeekerOfHealing]

Mineral cinnbar and other with can be used in weidan. They are rubbing it off because you need to know how to fixed pre-natal essences in material state and to be suitable for digestion. It's not easy task to do so. People have very unrealistic view on those things.

Edited December 16, 2016 by SeekerOfHealing

[Ormus]

One of the biggest secrets is that real Wai Dan dont use Cinnabar from nature,nor Mercury nor Lead,so there is no poisoning.

 

Like Nei Dan who also dont use Cinnabar,Mercury,Black Lead from nature but Pre Natal Qi in his varius manifestations.

[SeekerOfHealing]

One of the biggest secrets is that real Wai Dan dont use Cinnabar from nature,nor Mercury nor Lead,so there is no poisoning.

 

Like Nei Dan who also dont use Cinnabar,Mercury,Black Lead from nature but Pre Natal Qi in his varius manifestations.

 

Exactly, what you said here is worth tons of gold but only few will catch up

[awaken]

朱砂黑鉛

 

　　內煉名詞。指元精元氣，或靈知真知。《悟真篇》：〝縱識朱砂及黑鉛，不知

 

火候也如閒〞。清劉一明注：〝還丹之道，惟取朱砂、黑鉛二物藥料，　煉成寶，

 

以延性命。朱砂者，離中一點虛靈之氣，即靈知也，屬於人心﹔黑鉛者，坎中一點

 

剛正之氣，即真知也，屬於道心。因其人心靈知，外明內暗。明屬火，火色赤，取

 

象為朱砂。因其道心真知，外暗內明。暗屬水，水色黑，故取象為黑鉛。此無形無

 

象之砂鉛，而非世間有形有象之砂鉛。既識真知靈知之砂鉛，即可以隨手採取而無

 

難矣。然採之必須煉之，若識藥而不知煉藥之法，亦與不識者相等。故曰縱識朱砂

 

與黑鉛，不知火候也如閒〞。

 

Red Cinnabar，mercury，the focus of mind, easy to move, a lot of thoughts

 

Black Lead, chi,

 

Mix these two together

 

seal them

 

Wait for the one yang comes

Edited December 18, 2016 by awaken

[damdao]

One question: If ayurveda knows alchemical methods in order to turn mercury in a non toxic medicine, how is that this method was unknown in China?

I think that in Tang dinasty they have a great documented exchange of knowledge.

Besides, Tibetan medicine uses mercury too.

Any info about that?

[awaken]

It is not real mercury, it is a symbol

 

It is the same as lead

 

九 用鉛不得用凡鉛，用了凡鉛也棄捐。此是用鉛真妙訣，用鉛不用是誠言。

 

When using lead, we should not use the ordinary lead, if we use ordinary lead, it will waste

 

This is the real secret of using lead.

 

It is true to use lead but not lead.

 

Sorry for my poor English translation again.

 

If you don't understand my translation, please find another version.

 

 

Mercury is the focus of mind. And it is very easy to flow away.

 

It is very easy to go with thoughts.

 

 

Lead is the chi. There are two kind of chi. Post-heaven and pre-heaven chi.

 

Post-heaven chi is lead. Pre-heaven chi is gold.

 

But Liu yi Ming separate post-heaven chi into two part .

 

So what Liu said became three kinds of chi, post-heaven chi, pre-heaven chi, the real one pre-heaven chi.

 

 

 

四四 恍惚之中尋有象，杳冥之內覓真精。有無由此自相入，未見如何想得成。

 

To mix mercury and lead is the biggest secret of dan dao.

 

This sentences describes the situation when mercury and lead mix together.

Edited December 20, 2016 by awaken

[damdao]

It is not real mercury, it is a symbol

 

It is the same as lead

 

 

I know Zhang's quote but I wanted to know about real mercury which is used in Indian alchemy. Today still exists Chinese external alchemy applied to medicine and I know they use elixirs, salt, etc. but I don't know if methods of turning mercury in a non toxic substance (through multiple sublimations)  are openly aknowledge as in ayurveda or tibetan medicine.

[awaken]

I know Zhang's quote but I wanted to know about real mercury which is used in Indian alchemy. Today still exists Chinese external alchemy applied to medicine and I know they use elixirs, salt, etc. but I don't know if methods of turning mercury in a non toxic substance (through multiple sublimations)  are openly aknowledge as in ayurveda or tibetan medicine.

Oh...

 

I see...

 

I only know Chinese medicine.

 

I don't know Ayurveda or Tibetan medicine.

 

Sorry...

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

At the risk of walking into a mine field (already been ad-hominemed a few times today but what they hey!), my teacher told me that the original use of red clay "zhu sha" and wai dan in general was to kill parasites in the body so that the body could be made strong enough to do internal cultivation practices.  I suspect that "bi gu" and other types of fasting may also have some relationship with this.   Early types of Daoist practice could be very tiring and so people would have to be healthy enough to practice, so there might have been a reasonable cause for taking a toxic medicine which would kill of parasitic infections, even though it might be dangerous.   Hu Haiya said in one of his books that Chen yingning was successful in making Wai Dan in the 20th century, but felt that there was no practical need for it and thus they replaced it with Chinese medicine in their practice (xian xue).   Keep in mind that wai dan went out of fashion after the Song dynasty, and I personally believe it was because of the success of the neidan school and the writings of Lu Dongbin and Zhang Boduan against bad practices like wai dan, strong types of breathing techniques, and visualization, all of which can damage the body if done improperly.   Nei Dan by comparison is much safer if you have a proper transmission, and certainly in the way that the Northern school teaches, it won't be dangerous even if your teacher is withholding information from you.

[awaken]

Chang don't agree the skills of breathe not because of being dangerous

 

It is because it is useless.

 

When some one use skills, he use his ego-Shen at the same time.

 

And this violate the rules of dan dao.

 

識神用事is the key point to fail.

 

 

 

 

四十 玄牝之門世罕知，休將口鼻妄施爲。饒君吐納經千載，爭得金烏弱兔兒。

 

The door of 玄牝（玄關）is rare to be known in the world

 

Don't act foolishly or recklessly with your mouth and nose ( it means that you should not try to use skills of breathe)

 

Even if you breath for one thousand years

 

You only get gold black ( means a black liver with golden color, black liver is a kind of lead light) and rabbit (means rabbit spinal cord, a kind of lead light)

 

It means even if you spent a lot of time , you still can not get a golden dan.

 

You just get a lead dan with gold color.

 

Many people use skills to get a golden light and think that is golden dan.

 

Chang told us it is not one thousand years ago.

Edited December 20, 2016 by awaken

[awaken]

That is why I told you not to use methods to control your mind.

 

Mind can not be controlled.

 

Or you will very easy to get crazy like this way.

 

Mind should be aware.

 

You should aware your crazy mind.

 

Blind teachers teach blind students.

 

You pay too much attention to the outside methods.

 

I can feel your chi go into your head because of anger.

 

You should aware your emotions.

 

This is the real dao.

 

Awareness

 

Don't chase methods.

 

Methods are useless.

 

 

Emotions lead your chi.

 

When you get crazy, your chi go up your head.

 

It is because anger hurt liver.

 

And liver Jin go into head.

Edited December 20, 2016 by awaken

[damdao]

(...)

 

But I know many "good students" sell their "true teacher" here by insulting others.

 

(...)

 

Well, for the record, sillybear is not from the school that you like to deprecate with the "truuuuuuuuue teacher".

He is from a Longmen Pai tradition.

But you have the skill to turn angry all pai together...