About necessity of having a true Teacher

[damdao]

I think an example explanation is here:

 

The Esoteric Codex: Alchemy I

 

Interesting reading!

Let's not forget that superior and inferior are not moral adjectives so nothing wrong is with inferior virtue. In fact it is a question of integrity we have no election about one or the other. If we are whole we can try superior virtue paths but if we are not whole we can't, we need to become whole again. This is replenishing... etc.

If you have at hand read Cultivating the Tao by Liu Yiming, p. 117.

About wuwei vs. youwei, I think that all spiritual paths are a mix between both. For instance, in zuowang you need intention to learn it (and unlearn psychological patterns), intention to sit even intention to relax and let go. Then, if wuwei rises you can practice (?!) wuwei. The same is valid for certain neidan practices. 

Here an interesting fragment of Liu Yiming, trad. Pregadio, p. 117:

 

 

 

The Ways of "doing" and "non-doing" are established to pro­vide a starting point to those who possess superior virtue or

inferior virtue. When one comes to fully achieving the Great Tao, not only does the operation of "doing" not apply, but also

the operation of "non-doing" does not apply. When one reaches the highest step there is a different wondrous operation, but it

does not pertain to either "doing" or "non-doing."

[damdao]

(...)

Nei Dan emerged as option for those who are not high level society ...

 

(...)

 

If with "high level" you mean social status remember that Ge Hong ask for a lowly bureaucratic job in order to be transferred to a region with cinnabar (or other alchemical substance). So even being high class does not guarantee an acces to rare alchemical ingredients.

[dawei]

Interesting reading!

Let's not forget that superior and inferior are not moral adjectives so nothing wrong is with inferior virtue. In fact it is a question of integrity we have no election about one or the other. If we are whole we can try superior virtue paths but if we are not whole we can't, we need to become whole again. This is replenishing... etc.

 

That is a very interesting and open point... no election...  but if you mean one can replenish to change their election, I would say then one didn't really understand their path and election.   I would focus on election and path as our Way. 

 

If you have at hand read Cultivating the Tao by Liu Yiming, p. 117.

About wuwei vs. youwei, I think that all spiritual paths are a mix between both. For instance, in zuowang you need intention to learn it (and unlearn psychological patterns), intention to sit even intention to relax and let go. Then, if wuwei rises you can practice (?!) wuwei. The same is valid for certain neidan practices. 

Here an interesting fragment of Liu Yiming, trad. Pregadio, p. 117:

 

I think there is a kind of induced result that arises... still a part of one's destiny.    

 

Practice is only to occupy oneself in their idea of their path; Destiny is to forge it.  They are most often brought together in a way we never foresaw but the more we following in an uninhibited way, the further we can go in this life.

 

As this thread is about a teacher, I feel I stray too far... so I don't want to say more.  I respect the idea of a teacher as it falls within my theory of ascension or transcendence. 

 

If the OP wants my comments removed, I am fine with that as I am not sure I really stayed on topic.   

[Apech]

Read the book, I'm just quoting it. Thus on this subject I have no relevant experience to back this up.

 

But I belive it held the opinion that nei dan was too you wei, and that wu wei was superior. It's an old book, might not reflect later versions of nei dan.

 

A wild guess: Maybe the author felt the method of that time focused too much on Ming and not enough on Xing?

 

 

You do both.  But Xing is based on not-doing, while Ming is based on doing - superior and inferior are used in a technical sense.

[SeekerOfHealing]

Ming is also based on non doing. Unless you practices lesser ming. 

[LaoZiDao]

Ming is also based on non doing. Unless you practices lesser ming. 

 

Alchemy requires a-lot of 'doing' until achieved high level (when no longer normal human), then non-doing becomes possible. For human, its all about doing the hard work to get the result and transform, until then, it's a-lot of doing-youwei. 

 

Do you mind to describe 'lesser Ming' and what you mean exactly? Do you have any references from any Daoist Scriptures? As far as I see it, there is either Ming practices that return Ming-yuanqi, and practices which claim to be Ming but are not (ie false methods). Higher Ming or Lesser Ming methods I have not heard about it. If practice of Minggong exists in a School there is nothing "lower", or "lesser" about it. It's a treasure from any point of view.

 

Sure there could be levels of effectiveness across methods/Schools, but that is also very individual to the student.

 

 

Edited December 25, 2016 by LaoZiDao

[Apech]

Ming is also based on non doing. Unless you practices lesser ming. 

 

[effilang]

Alchemy requires a-lot of 'doing' until achieved high level (when no longer normal human), then non-doing becomes possible. For human, its all about doing the hard work to get the result and transform, until then, it's a-lot of doing-youwei. 

 

This is incorrect and misleading. Wu Wei is initiated as soon as our awareness begins to resonate with the stillness of Wuji, even before making direct contact. This is manifested in all levels of Tai Yin meditation (still body, still breath, still mind).

 

If your Jingzuo and Zuowang involve a voluntary movement in either of the three above ie: body, breath, imagination - you are trapped in Youwei and thus cannot go above the frequency of Taiji; therefore, the immortal spirit cannot even begin to be cultivated.

 

Wuwei is not a high level achievement. It is the basis of all Tai Yin meditation (Great Yin), which is the basis for achieving and maintaining a state of stillness in which ones awareness can expand and re-connect with its original nature.

 

There's no such thing as having to be "no longer human" to enter Wuwei practice.

 

There is still "doing" in Wuwei, but it is not active doing. The mind is not engineering, guiding or governing the doing; yet in this non-activity the most important thing becomes active and of its own, self-doing. This is the way to Xuan Guang, Yuan Xing and manifesting the light of the true self.

 

In our school we don't focus too much on the physical body and Ming. We just keep it healthy and follow a balanced diet. We can also eat whatever we like and have active sex lives. This is due to the source of our energy during cultivation, as we absorb Primordial Qi directly from Wuji during Xiantian Dao Yin Shu. Once this energy penetrates Taiji and interacts with our Shen we then step it down or transform it into a lower vibration which can be processed safely by the energy of the human body to support the Dantien and meridian reservoirs which can distribute the energy as necessary to regulate our Ming.

 

So the difference between Xiantian and Houtian methods in terms of "source" is that in Xiantian we absorb divine energy from the finest vibration then convert it downwards, while in Houtian we begin with the coarse. This is one of the reasons why physical sexual celibacy is often required in Houtian.

 

In Houtian we use force to throw the rock up into the air, because we must move from Jing to Qi to Shen to Wuji to Dao. In Xiantian we just let the rock fall from high and allow gravity to naturally do its job, because we move from Shen to Wuji to Dao, so the part which requires a lot of Youwei ie: building the energy "rocket" to propel the consciousness outside of Taiji, is skipped due to the fact that our spirit is wrapped with a cocoon of divine energy during initiation that encapsulates and replicates this function, while giving some extra perks.

 

During the earlier phases of practice in Xiantian systems, Shen Gong and Qigong is used to calibrate the Ming, but while Ming is being worked on we are always Xiu Xin Yang Xing consciously through the day and during Jingzuo, where our Xing is purified in a natural way (Ziran) to clear and still (Qingjing) the acquired conditioned virtues while bringing forth the radiant virtues (De) of our Yuan Shen and Yuan Xing.

 

All this leads us to become "Xiao Yao" with minimal to no effort. Hence the name of our school: Xiao Yao Pai.

If you want to program yourself with the idea of "hard work", it is your choice, but it is not the reality of cultivation.

 

The only thing challenging about spiritual cultivation is consistency. Everything else is natural.

Edited December 26, 2016 by effilang

[Jox]

"This is due to the source of our energy during cultivation, as we absorb Primordial Qi directly from Wuji during Xiantian Dao Yin Shu." 

 

Is this the same as done by doing Wu Ji Gong form_Primordial Tai Chi?

[effilang]

Is this the same as done by doing Wu Ji Gong form_Primordial Tai Chi?

 

Actually, Wuji energy cannot be absorbed directly into the human body, because the energy is too fine and the frequency is too high, so it can adversely affect the system and shock it. Our Hu Fa Shen also have to step down to interact with some aspects of our human complex. If they just stay in their native vibration, we can't even see them with our eyes and when we can see them with our extrasensory perception they still have to tune down their energy body relative to our level otherwise they will just blind us with glaring divine light due to the intensity of their Yang Shen.

 

In Houtian the progression from Jing > Qi > Shen is among other things, so that the practitioner can begin to tune their energy to match the same vibration of Wuji; this then allows them to immerse their developing Xiao Yang Shen directly in the sea of primordial Wuji to bathe and absorb divine energy directly into their forming subtle immortal body.

 

In Xiao Yao Pai, during initiation we trigger the Shen directly to consciously activate that vibration, then Hu Fa Shen acts as a bridge between Wuji and Taiji to help us step down and transform the pure primordial Qi into Taiji energy that our body can absorb, meanwhile our Yuan Shen which is enveloped by our schools golden aura directly absorbs the highest vibration of Wuji and it begins to condense and become more solid; merging the 3 Hun and 7 Po into one entity; Yang Shen. This is why many newly initiated can see the dancing flowers and falling snow during initiation and start to feel a shapeless vapor forming above their head. This is the start of the Yang Shen beginning to congeal outside the body in the golden cocoon of our school's divine energy. This is often a final stage manifestation referred to as the "birth of the immortal child" in Houtian Neidan, but in our system it happens at the start and we do not have to be afraid to leave our Yang Shen outside of the body after it is born, because HFS protects us and our aura repels any Yin entities, while in Houtian Neidan, the "holy spirit" (hola Yeshua ) that is born for the first time has no protection, no home and no parents. For these roles we have the celestial branch of Xiao Yao Pai and our Hu Fa Shen.

 

So at first the golden aura which surrounds us and wraps around our spirit comes form our school and Hu Fa Shen, but as we continue to cultivate, the ratio starts to shift from: 100:0 to 70:30, 60:40, 50:50, 40:60, 20:80, 10:90, 0:100.

 

On the left of that ratio spectrum our aura's divine energy is called Shen Li and comes from our school and Hu Fa Shen's energy, but on the right of that spectrum, our energy has developed completely and Hu Fa Shen's protective energy has disappeared entirely. Our aura is now called Gong Li; and at this point we can stand independently in Wuji at the level of Hu Fa Shen. This development is correlated with the development of Yang Shen in Xiantian Dao Yin Shu.

 

Moving practices generally cannot absorb Wuji. They are usually a type of Qigong that develops the Taiji energy in the houtian meridians, but because this energy relates to the physical body; after we die, it disperses within this realm and cannot enter Wuji, because its vibration is too low (too physical), so it stays in Taiji and gets recycled based on the law of conservation of energy.

 

To be able to absorb Wuji energy, one first needs to have gotten to the Shen level of cultivation, through meditation, then learn how to transform the energy downwards so it can be used safely in in the houtian meridians that affect the physical tissues or when used during Wai Qi Liao Fa to project it into another persons energy body.

 

If someone is claiming to be absorbing Wuji Qi during a moving practice, it means they have already achieved all of the above and are always "there", always absorbing. Their Yang Shen is developed and conscious and residing in Wuji all the time, absorbing energy 24/7. Then it doesn't matter if you're on the toilet pooping or doing Taiji; the connection is established and conscious, so the process requires no doing and is a very high level Wuwei Gong, however if we sit and pacify the acquired mind; then the process of absorption is augmented and made more efficient.

 

I don't believe that anyone can learn that in 15 or 20 minutes as is claimed by Wuji Qigong Taiji instructors, because Houtian Neidan practitioners spend all their lives trying to get to the Shen level so they can start entering Wuji to cultivate Yang Shen, but maybe I'm wrong.

Edited December 26, 2016 by effilang

[Jeff]

Actually, Wuji energy cannot be absorbed directly into the human body, because the energy is too fine and the frequency is too high, so it can adversely affect the system and shock it. So in Houtian the progression from Jing > Qi > Shen is among other things, so that the practitioner can begin to tune their energy to match the same vibration of Wuji; this then allows them to immerse their developing Xiao Yang Shen directly in the sea of primordial Wuji to bathe and absorb divine energy directly into their forming subtle immortal body.

 

In Xiao Yao Pai, during initiation we trigger the Shen directly to consciously activate that vibration, then Hu Fa Shen acts as a bridge between Wuji and Taiji to help us step down and transform the pure primordial Qi into Taiji energy that our body can absorb, meanwhile our Yuan Shen which is enveloped by our schools golden aura directly absorbs the highest vibration of Wuji and it begins to condense and become more solid; merging the 3 Hun and 7 Po into one entity; Yang Shen.

 

So at first the golden aura which surrounds us and wraps around our spirit comes form our school and Hu Fa Shen, but as we continue to cultivate, the ratio starts to shift from: 100:0 to 70:30, 60:40, 50:50, 40:60, 20:80, 10:90, 0:100.

 

On the left of that ratio spectrum our aura's divine energy is called Shen Li and comes from our school and Hu Fa Shen's energy, but on the right of that spectrum, our energy has developed completely and Hu Fa Shen's protective energy has disappeared entirely. Our aura is now called Gong Li; and at this point we can stand independently in Wuji at the level of Hu Fa Shen. This development is correlated with the development of Yang Shen in Xiantian Dao Yin Shu.

 

Moving practices generally cannot absorb Wuji. They are usually a type of Qigong that develops the Taiji energy in the houtian meridians, but because this energy relates to the physical body; after we die, it disperses within this realm and cannot enter Wuji, because its vibration is too low (too physical), so it stays in Taiji and gets recycled based on the law of conservation of energy.

 

To be able to absorb Wuji energy, one first needs to have gotten to the Shen level of cultivation, through meditation, then learn how to transform the energy downwards so it can be used safely in in the houtian meridians that affect the physical tissues or when used during Wai Qi Liao Fa to project it into another persons energy body.

 

If someone is claiming to be absorbing Wuji Qi during a moving practice, it means they have already achieved all of the above and are always "there", always absorbing. Their Yang Shen is developed and conscious and residing in Wuji all the time, absorbing energy 24/7. Then it doesn't matter if you're on the toilet pooping or doing Taiji; the connection is established and conscious, so the process requires no doing, however if we sit and pacify the acquired mind; then the process of absorption is augmented and made more efficient.

 

I don't believe that anyone can learn that in 15 or 20 minutes as is claimed by Wuji Qigong Taiji instructors, because Houtian Neidan practitioners spend all their lives trying to get to the Shen level so they can start entering Wuji to cultivate Yang Shen, but maybe I'm wrong.

This is also an excellent description (in Taoist terms) of what happens with all guru/deity practices. Thank you for sharing the wisdom.

[effilang]

This is also an excellent description (in Taoist terms) of what happens with all guru/deity practices. Thank you for sharing the wisdom.

 

Thanks, Jeff. Funnily, I thought about you while writing the last couple of paragraphs 

Edited December 26, 2016 by effilang

[Jox]

Thank you for sharing effilang ...  

[SeekerOfHealing]

Perfect explanation. Thank you.

[LaoZiDao]

Vibrations， frequencies, divine energy.. hmmm, I really do feel like I'm on a New Age board, not a Daoist one. Ahh.. Western Daoism...

[Mudfoot]

()

Edited December 27, 2016 by Mudfoot

[mvingon]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ADiql3FG5is

[Golden Dragon Shining]

I think the knowledge is out there in the aether or the like/within, things will come in dreams with intention/focus. To me a lot of it seems like imagination/ consciousness creating/interacting.

What if everything is a dream, one dream to the next. When lucid dreaming you wonder.

The aim is to become conscious continually? as in the Nyingma tradition, to conquer sleep/dreams is to conquer death?


 

Edited December 27, 2016 by Sionnach

[SeekerOfHealing]

Vibrations， frequencies, divine energy.. hmmm, I really do feel like I'm on a New Age board, not a Daoist one. Ahh.. Western Daoism...

 

they are modern words as we using scientific approach - nothing new age here. 

[effilang]

Vibrations， frequencies, divine energy.. hmmm, I really do feel like I'm on a New Age board, not a Daoist one. Ahh.. Western Daoism...

 

Right. You're one of those guys...

 

Didn't know electromangetism and physics terminology were a new age phenomenon?

Perhaps you'd care to elaborate on that a little more?

 

Divine energy is synonymous to the Primordial Qi of Wuji. Not a hard one to deduce contextually..

 

It seems that you're distracted by the name of the finger pointing to the moon - while missing the moon altogether in exchange for the opportunity to a remark of ignorance perpetuating dismissal.

 

Do you think the Dao did not exist before the word Dao was thought up by the mind?

In case you haven't noticed, we don't live in 3000 BCE anymore... 

We've made some discoveries in that time since... that is also Dao.

 

It might be a good time to consider the fact that Daoism has never stayed the same.

It has always been an ever-evolving and organic complex of systems, waxing and waning with the ages.

That much we can see by its history.

 

In the face of evolution and the constant of change, that which doesn't adapt, dies.

Edited December 28, 2016 by effilang

[awaken]

Vibrations， frequencies, divine energy.. hmmm, I really do feel like I'm on a New Age board, not a Daoist one. Ahh.. Western Daoism...

Zhang bou duan 張伯端 learned almost every kinds of knowledge.

 

A real daoist cultivator 上知天文，下知地理

 

He never limited himself in only daoist range.

 

Dao can be found in everything.

 

 

嗟夫！人身难得，光景易迁，罔测修短，安逃业报?不自及早省悟，惟只甘分得终，若临歧一念有差，堕于三涂恶趣，则动经尘劫无有出期，释老以性命学开方便门，教人修炼以逃生死。释氏以空寂为宗，若顿悟圆通，则直超彼岸，如其习漏未尽，则尚循于有生。老氏以炼养为真，若得其要枢，则立跻圣位，如其未明本性，则犹滞于幻形。其次《周易》有穷理尽性致命之词，鲁语有毋意、必，固，我之说，此又孔子极臻于性命之奥也。然其言之常略而不至于详者，何也?盖欲序正人伦，施仁义礼乐之教，故于无为之道未尝显言，但以命术寓诸易象、性法混诸微言耳。至于庄子推穷物类逍遥之性，孟子善养浩然之气，皆切几之。迨夫汉魏伯阳引易道交垢之体作《参同契》，以昭大丹之作用，唐忠国师于《语录》首序老庄言，以显至道之本来如此，岂非教虽分三，道乃归一?

奈何没世缁黄之流，各自专门，互相非是，致使三家宗要迭没邪歧，不得混一而同归矣

 

釋老Buddha

老氏Lao ze

周易 yii Jin

孔子

孟子

莊子

 

 

教雖分三，道乃歸一

 

There are three different teaching, but dao is all in one

 

Means different teachings have the same dao.

Edited December 28, 2016 by awaken

[Golden Dragon Shining]

I am Dao

[awaken]

I am Dao

如其未明本性，则犹滞于幻形

 

If you don't know the self Xing, you are just like staying in illusion.

[Golden Dragon Shining]

~

Edited January 1, 2017 by Sionnach

[Michael Sternbach]

It's hard to conceive that the 'highest' levels could be taught within the constraints of a school. Schools are concerned with suiting their numerous members - they're inevitably collectivistic in nature. Whereas the higher levels of spiritual development have to do with unfolding one's individuality (what C.G.Jung called individuation). That's why Lao Tzu taught that the true way can't be shown.

 

Invariable, at some stage, the seeker will step outside the preconceived framework of their school to further pursue their fulfillment - and perhaps found a school of their own that can take its students to a certain stage!

 

Higher guidance may however come in the form of a master who works with disciples in an individual fashion, or by way of direct spiritual revelation. Or in whatever strange and ineffable way spirit may find suitable for the individual in question.