About necessity of having a true Teacher

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Dear A.A.Khokhlov,

 

I agree that someone who whant to study Nei Dan need True Teacher and secret oral instructions Koujue.This is true also for other aspects of Daoism(like in religious-ritual Daoism).

 

Here in the text point 8 is strange how it is Lu Dongbin work which mention Zhang Boduan when we know that Master Zhang comes later in time and generation?

 

Point 9 Ge Hong speaks about Wai Dan(laboratory Alchemy) but I agree the same rules except blood are for Nei Dan.

 

Few Nei Dan Masters(of many) with whom I speak say one importaint point .....and this is: True Teacher is the one who realised Golden Elixir,more precisly above it secret Purple Elixir and who have Yang Shen and stay here on earht to teach students.All others are not nor can be True Teacher because their still work on themselfs and their work is not finished,so they cant teach others because in this way blind leading the blind.How many are there such Teachers?I dont know I didnt meet anyone from that level.But I hear that even in China there are maybe few of them.

And when I think about this it is correct because how someone posing as Master is to teach others and he himself still continue to transform Qi to Shen for example?And we see that all or almost all of Masters present in the west but also in China are still working on themselfs.What is to happen if such Master die by accident?Students left alone and cant go further,or if student somehow come to the level of Master by years,and Master stagnates on the same level.How student is to go further?

So only realised ones with Yang Shen are True Teachers,others can be considered helpers or instructiors but not a Master.

 

Our second biggest problem today is money......more precisly huge money that Masters ask.One of the highest authority of Daoism and Master of 1 level who live in USA(he dont practice Nei Dan but he know related older inner practices) told me in personal conversation that real Daoist Masters are not to ask you for 1 $ to teach you.It is free and it is only for accepted students who become like second son to the Master.Student can give on itself money and other valuables as exchenge of Virtue,but Master if accet student cant ask for money.He also say me that real Masters only have few students,and that today trend to have hundred students are just selling Daoism for dolars and all this is not traditional nor Master can observe and test all them nor to make clouse relationship with all this people.

 

Ormus

 

Dear Ormus,

 

p.8 - the text from Daozang consists of Lu Dongbin words and the commentary part, these words are from the commentary.

The only simple rule about Teacher's level is: student (in Alchemy) can not go above his Teacher's level. Renxian can teach you how to become Renxian, Dixian - how to become Dixian and so on.

 

But don't forget that your Teacher has his own Teacher and entire School with extremely high-level Masters and if for some reason a student overcomes his Teacher - he will not be blocked. The only true is: every person is a blockage to himself, and no more blockages exist.

 

Moreover the higher level Master is - the higher level dangers he has. And if there is only a single person (not School) - who will help in case of accidents?

 

People get deceived easily. Even rational, logical, objective people.

 

So finding a 'true teacher' is just a matter of luck? of fortune or destiny?

 

Because as was said many ppl who felt they had excellent teachers died and lived normal lives.

 

Ppl can only 'teach' what they know and have achieved. Now, since it is not allowed to share comments on peoples personal results in neidan, how can anyone know what their 'teacher' has achieved? And if a teacher has achievement, how do they demonstrate this to leave no doubt? Because immortality cant be 'demonstrated' except by out living everyone (self demonstration).

 

Would-be teachers need to lead with RESULTS, otherwise we have NO WAY to judge them or the veracity of their claim to be teachers in the first place.

 

This is why ppl ask the age and appearance of neidan folks--if the claims of neidan are true, SHOW US; if no one to show us, then how did they fail or why not yet succeed? Or, neidan is false in its claims.

 

8)

 

About "feeling of having excellent teachers" - well... Simple example: a lot of people in the world eat fastfood and "feel they eat excellent". But health problems come with time.

 

Unfortunately in the modern world people loose the true feelings more and more.

 

Why "showing magic" is not that perfect way you may think?

Remember David Blane or David Copperfield. Have they shown you magic? Yes. What do you think of it? It's a trick.

 

Teachers are important, but just as important is for student to go beyond teachers. If they dont, what is value of teaching?

 

8)

 

True.

 

Hi, Dr. Khokhlov,  thank you for making this very clear post.  It is very important for the new student to have a qualified teacher, but in the case of the western student, it is even more difficult, because of the lack of native language skills in Chinese.   My own teacher said once that he thinks most people will find it almost impossible to study nei dan because of the complexity of its theory and linguistic problems facing both westerners and young Chinese, as well as the lack of qualified teachers available today.  Later he rephrased it and said that it will be very difficult, and anyone wanting to study nei dan will have to work very hard and make big sacrifices.

I'm glad to see someone as learned as yourself sharing with us here and wish to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your generous translation of these materials.

Best wishes to you and your future success!

 

Sincerely,

Robert J. Coons

 

Thank you for kind words Robert. The words of Patriarchs from this topic 100% correlate with my own experience, with experience of my Teacher and my brothers and sisters in Russia and China. That is what gives us all confidence.

 

Gray hair that returns to original colour?

 

Yes.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Physical Immortality is one purported effect of neidan in houtian xiulian, but there are many accompanying skills, which a true teacher should be able to demonstrate.

 

I directed this question at AAK some time ago, but have not received a reply.

Here is some background: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42697-yuxianpai-wuliupai-tradition-doctrine/?p=724254

 

Wuliu Pai, as other schools, claim to develop physical immortality and AAK recently stated that the physical body which is houtian jing, qi and shen is converted to Yang Shen; essentially going against what a lot of the Daoist literature claims; in that the postnatal cannot generate the prenatal.

 

So I'd like to ask a very fundamental question and simple question once again, not only to Wuliu Pai, but to all schools who claim that the impermanent physical body can be absorbed into and converted to Yang Shen, so that there is no longer a dying body present, but only the undying immortal body - or that the physical body can be made to last forever (immortality).

 

AAK claimed that they age in reverse and get younger instead of older, never get sick and escape death.

 

Wuliu Pai from my understanding is around 500 years old, again, please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not familiar with your history. In this time, could we safely assume that you may have had at least 250 students, on the basis of around a 100 years of life with 50 students per century? - Maybe you have more students, maybe less. I am just using this as a crutch to illustrate my point.

 

So here is my question:

 

To support these claims in lieu of any demonstrations, in those ~500 years, can you point to any of your masters or their master's masters, whom are an embodiment of these achievements and are still alive today?

 

What are their names and where can we meet them?

 

There are pretty much two possibilities IMHO:

 

1. What AAK says is true and the masters of the school, going back to its inception are still alive today and teaching and have escaped death and achieved physical immortality.

 

OR

 

2. All the masters and their masters died an ordinary death and were either buried or cremated, indicating that the physical immortality claimed in their schools which supports the notion that the physical body can be prevented from dying and decaying, is actually false?

 

How does Wuliu Pai reconcile these beliefs with the history of their school?

Surely at least one of the Wuliu Pai masters must have achieved these things if they are teaching others about it?

 

What sort of argument can you give us AAK to substantiate these statements?

 

 

Gray hair returning to its original colour is not an indication of physical immortality.

The person will still die and be buried with their non-white hair.

 

It's my understanding that the IRF4 Gene is responsible for melanin regulation in hair:

http://www.genecards.org/cgi-bin/carddisp.pl?gene=IRF4

 

Gene therapy will soon enough be able to change the hair colour to anything you like without dye; from gray to ginger.

 

Everyone will still die... It is the nature of all things born of Taiji; they are bound by the law of Yin and Yang; and so they are bound by death and decay. This is why in spiritual cultivation we focus on the cultivation of the immortal spirit only by using prenatal energy.

 

Please don't hesitate to ask again if you have some questions unanswered. Sometimes spam comes from some members and valuable messages may be lost inside.

 

1) About "showing" - please see my answer above.

2) However there are demonstartions from high-level Brothers and Teachers but each demonstration comes only after you reache certain stage.

3) So you say in Yin-Yang world everything comes to its end. I would say differently: the "end" violates Yin-Yang law. 

4) However becomming immortal means a person overcomes Yin-Yang law, see http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42984-yangshen-perspectives-in-traditional-schools/

5) Hair can become black because of: hair dye, some kind of temporary medical therapy... or going back to youth. Please don't forget hair is only a sign of the result, not the result itself.

 

And finally to your main question - how can xiantian and houtian be connected? Easily: a human spread yuanqi to live and do deeds in the outer world. So the connection exists.

In Alchemy we use the reversed process to collect back yuanqi and become Xian (immortal).

 

Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

 

[effilang]

Please don't hesitate to ask again if you have some questions unanswered. Sometimes spam comes from some members and valuable messages may be lost inside.

 

1) About "showing" - please see my answer above.

2) However there are demonstartions from high-level Brothers and Teachers but each demonstration comes only after you reache certain stage.

3) So you say in Yin-Yang world everything comes to its end. I would say differently: the "end" violates Yin-Yang law. 

4) However becomming immortal means a person overcomes Yin-Yang law, see http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42984-yangshen-perspectives-in-traditional-schools/

5) Hair can become black because of: hair dye, some kind of temporary medical therapy... or going back to youth. Please don't forget hair is only a sign of the result, not the result itself.

 

And finally to your main question - how can xiantian and houtian be connected? Easily: a human spread yuanqi to live and do deeds in the outer world. So the connection exists.

In Alchemy we use the reversed process to collect back yuanqi and become Xian (immortal).

 

Best Regards, A.A.Khokhlov

 

Thanks, AAK, but you again didn't answer my main question. Here is some background.

 

 

Wuliu Pai, as other schools, claim to develop physical immortality and AAK recently stated that the physical body which is houtian jing, qi and shen is converted to Yang Shen; essentially going against what a lot of the Daoist literature claims; in that the postnatal cannot generate the prenatal.

 

So I'd like to ask a very fundamental question and simple question once again, not only to Wuliu Pai, but to all schools who claim that the impermanent physical body can be absorbed into and converted to Yang Shen, so that there is no longer a dying body present, but only the undying immortal body - or that the physical body can be made to last forever (immortality).

 

AAK claimed that they age in reverse and get younger instead of older, never get sick and escape death.

 

Wuliu Pai from my understanding is around 500 years old, again, please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not familiar with your history. In this time, could we safely assume that you may have had at least 250 students, on the basis of around a 100 years of life with 50 students per century? - Maybe you have more students, maybe less. I am just using this as a crutch to illustrate my point.

 

And here is my question:

 

- If physical immortality is a part of your tradition, and you claim you get younger and escape death, can you direct us to any one of your masters or their masters who are still alive today and were not buried or cremated, as a testament to this achievement?

 

In relation to your other statements. I'll go by the numbers and share my ideas:

 

1. I'll have a look at that.

 

2. That's very convenient wouldn't you say? This way only people from inside your school can confirm it, its very biased.

 

3. Yes, naturally it's the nature of Yin and Yang, and it is evident in the Taijitu. I'm sure you already know this, but for the sake of making my point I'll say it. When Yang reaches its height Yin is born and vice versa. All things that are products of Taiji and the 5 elements are thus impermanent. They all naturally succumb to aging, death and decay; and their post-natal physical energy simple recycles itself based on the law of conservation of energy. The higher aspects of the Yuan Shen are not a Taiji energy and this is what we cultivate in Neidan. So in terms of the temporary partnership of Taiji (physical body) and Wuji aspects (immaterial spirit); yes there is the death of that which was the composite human being. Independently of each other, the Taiji energy is recycled continuously while being transformed into other forms of energy, while the Wuji aspects continue in their own respect. From such a perspective nothing ever really dies, but I'm not talking about that when I refer to physical immortality; rather I'm talking about a human being as one integrated and fully functioning unit. That is the idea of physical immortality. So to say that THAT ages, dies and decays, is certainly not a violation of Taiji, but evidence of its law which is reflected in the life cycle of every being born in Taiji through a natural birth.

 

4. It is not a persons physical body that overcomes Yin and Yang, but a person's cultivated immaterial body and soul. Again if you do not subscribe to this, then please let us know which one of your masters wasn't buried or cremated. That will be evidence enough I think. Otherwise we have to assume this is simply something you talk about in your school, but nobody has ever achieved in the last 500 years?

 

5. I didn't forget, that's what I also said a few posts back : )

[Ormus]

It is so common on this forum that all try to avoid tricky questions.For example I asked on few topics and no answer.

Physical Immortality is posible by way of Wai Dan Alchemy as describe by Master Ge Hong.I think that Nei Dan dont have such claims,but still no one can explain how Di Xian who is Earth Immortal and have physical Immortal body can die when he decide to advance further to become Shen Xian or Tian Xian?

As I know Nei Dan claim that Shen and Tian Xian can materialise again his physical body but jet we dont have clues about that.

 

Ormus

[rainbowvein]

But Ge Hong's physical body died. His spirit did not. It lives on, inspiring others.

[SeekerOfHealing]

Physical immortality is for those who clinging to the illusions of their own mind.

[LaoZiDao]

Physical immortality is for those who clinging to the illusions of their own mind.

I disagree, it's a "side effect" of Alchemy.. it's not the "goal" of Alchemy.

[LaoZiDao]

Side effect, huh?

"the achievement of immortality is not a desire to leave the memory about oneself to descendants and not a desire to live on earth forever (and physical immortality and longevity, although considered realistically achievable, but have never been the supreme goal of Taoism), it’s realization of the supreme freedom which lives in every man, although he usually doesn’t know about it. This is described very well in Zhang Bo-duan’s “Chapters of Understanding Truth”. Thus, Taoism is not a philosophy or religion but the Way of Freedom."

 

"Taoist alchemy is the Doctrine about finding THE UNITY. And it is not about physical or life consciousness (as they understand the spirit), but the achievement of the particular state which is the Highest Possible Human Achievement In the Realm of Spirit. The purpose of Immortality in Taoist alchemy is more aimed at the spiritual immortality rather than the physical immortality"

 

Source: http://all-dao.com/immortality-achievements.html

[Ormus]

I advise you to read books by Robert Ford Campany and his translation of hagiografies of Immortals.You are to be surpised!!!!

 

3. Earth immortal – De Xian ( 地仙 )
This is something that everyone understands as immortality - the immortality of living of physical body on Earth. Although such body can exist indefinitely on Earth, it can be destroyed by external destruction. Therefore, even this achievement was not considered high and all practitioners were seeking to rise further, considering it only as an intermediate stage. It is necessary to add that this achievement - is the ultimate goal of the external alchemy. 
However, in the previous phase and at this stage it is possible to perfect various qualities of your level, although it’s not the main way but the side paths. At this stage Ming merges with Xing in a one whole which is why the immortality is possible. Here is comes some similarity to the thermonuclear eternal engine in the body amidst Earth conditions. That’s why there are such capabilities.
From this stage the achievements are irreversible in a way of returning transformation (the exception is the phase of Jen Xian where it’s easy to become an ordinary person again after having wasted Ming). But if due to external conditions or because of the body destruction the practice is not completed, it may be needed to revert to the previous level.

 

Ormus

[damdao]

I disagree, it's a "side effect" of Alchemy.. it's not the "goal" of Alchemy.

 

Very well said!

[Ormus]

Then Di Xian level is side effect?

 

Ormus

[dawei]

I disagree, it's a "side effect" of Alchemy.. it's not the "goal" of Alchemy.

 

so you can say with certainty that you are on a path of side-effect of a future physical immortality?

 

And how many more lifetimes will it take to get there?

 

If you are on a destined path of immortality, then I suspect you can see the future as the future is now.

 

BTW There are some on this board who can see past and future...  maybe immortality is now. 

[LaoZiDao]

so you can say with certainty that you are on a path of side-effect of a future physical immortality?

 

And how many more lifetimes will it take to get there?

 

If you are on a destined path of immortality, then I suspect you can see the future as the future is now.

 

BTW There are some on this board who can see past and future...  maybe immortality is now. 

I am not making much sense of what you are asking, and by the way I said nothing about any path which I am on.

 

[damdao]

Then Di Xian level is side effect?

 

Ormus

 

Well, lets say that, in theory, immortality (in its broadest sense) is union of xing and ming and its ulterior development.

So, once they are united this is the first step, but you have more steps. 

In this sense a lesser immortality is a side effect, it is not the goal, but it is not an accident or something like that.

[SeekerOfHealing]

Di Xian level is not side effect but generally side path, different way.

[dawei]

I am not making much sense of what you are asking, and by the way I said nothing about any path which I am on.

 

 

you introduced yourself upon arrival as "I'm a Neidan practitioner from Australia"...  

 

So you are now, not doing neidan any more and thus not on any path of any practice ?    

 

If so, my bad.   I took your comment of side-effect to speak to your neidan practices...

[damdao]

Di Xian level is not side effect but generally side path, different way.

 

Perhaps in some paths.

In Zhong-Lü tradition it is the first level of Xianhood.

[Ormus]

How it is side path and not side effect?

I dont agree with both.

How then you are to advance from side path to Shen Xian?

And if it is not good way what is stage before Shen Xian then?

 

Ormus

[damdao]

How it is side path and not side effect?

I dont agree with both.

How then you are to advance from side path to Shen Xian?

And if it is not good way what is stage before Shen Xian then?

 

Ormus

 

I think it is a necessary step but not the goal.

What it is necessary is the dixian stage, what it is not needed is to remain in the same body endlessly.

In fact, I don't think there is such kind of thing because people try to reach higher levels of xianhood.