there is no a Wu-Liu pai exit in history and reality life

[awaken]

http://www.xiulian.c...44&extra=page=1

 

A study about wu-Liu pai by a Chinese

 

This is what he said

 

"本人赞同譚立三先生的意见，即历史上和现实中并不存在一个伍柳派。"

 

He said "I agree what Mr. Tan-Li-torun said, there is no a Wu-Liu pai exit in history and reality life"

[awaken]

He said

 

"就算是even if 当年at that time气功潮的时候，也没听说过哪个人说自己是修伍柳派的。never heard of anyone claimed that they are Wu-Liu pai

 

如今的修炼流派，有尊崇伍柳为祖师的，但没有说自己是伍柳派的。"now the schools, some respect wu Liu, but no one said himself is wu Liu pai

 

 

 

Any one can help translate this or correct for me?

 

Thank you.

Edited December 21, 2016 by awaken

[awaken]

Even Chinese , no one said that they are wu Liu pai

 

But here

 

In the forum

 

I saw many Russians, claimed they are wu Liu pai

 

What happened?

 

 

Wu Liu pai is not a school in China or Taiwan.

 

Why here, in the forum,

 

So many Russians claimed they are wu Liu school

Edited December 21, 2016 by awaken

[damdao]

Even Chinese , no one said that they are wu Liu pai

 

But here

 

In the forum

 

I saw many Russians, claimed they are wu Liu pai

 

What happened?

 

 

Wu Liu pai is not a school in China or Taiwan.

 

Why here, in the forum,

 

So many Russians claimed they are wu Liu school

 

Well, this is not accurate to say the less.

You have Zhao Bichen's Traité d'alchemie et de psychologie taoïste, edited and translated by Catherine Despeux and she even quotes wuliupai members from Taiwan.

Your argument "even Chinese..." is not a valid one, Chinese don't know many things it is not about nationality, it is about study, practice and be in touch with the right people.

[Mudfoot]

Seems like someone got personal issues with WuLiuPai.

 

Aren't those supposed to be released when you work through the layers of your xing?

[Arkady Shadursky]

Oh, that starts to be annoying.

 

How much more threads will you create accusing the School you know nothing about?!

 

And will you finally be polite and constructive within your posts. What we see now is only emotions and emotions, and no answers about your teaching.

 

What all that looks like??? Let everyone decide himself.

For me it's everything clear about awaken and her teaching.

 

Your argument "even Chinese..." is not a valid one, Chinese don't know many things it is not about nationality, it is about study, practice and be in touch with the right people.

Thank you damdao. That is true. I asked Chinese they don't even know what dan dao is... Never heard about it.

 

Mudfoot seems to be right it looks like some personal issues with WuLiupai   

 

I hope that will end one day and awaken will go studying Treatises instead of accusing other schools.

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

[[email protected]]

Is this forum about Taoism or about "Is there a school like xxx"? ))

There are much more interesting themes to dicuss, f.e. about ming/xing methods and about practice.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Arkady Shadursky]

awaken, that is ridiculous!
Now you are saying:
 

Even Chinese , no one said that they are wu Liu pai

I'd like to remind you how did you start WuLiupai accusing thread a couple of weeks ago:

Does "school" mean 派別 ？

If we read the dao classics, we all know that the real classics have no school.

They don't say what school they are.

There is only one way to reach there.

I know many people learn wu Liu pai here, just like mainland china.

I have talk with many people who practice wu Liu.

[...]

Obviously, one of these is a lie.
---
Arkady

[Walker]

When is she going to drop it? She's fighting against a straw man of her own creation. Anybody who reads carefully here will note that she accused the Wu-Liu Pai of being wrong because supposedly they gather large groups people into seated meditation-based practices (to make money, she claims). Yet Opendao has been stressing for years now that that is pretty much the opposite of how they practice. Clearly she either has a vendetta, or is merely too obsessed with her imagined "enemy" to bother with facts and logic. If this is what "awake" looks like, I'd prefer to swallow a bottle of Ambien.

 

Just because she puts on a practiced patina of politeness doesn't make her behavior civilized.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Walker

[Aetherous]

Seems like there are people in China calling themselves Wu Liu Pai who aren't similar to the Russian school.

[Walker]

Well, China is a huge country, with all sorts of weird people doing all sorts of weird shit. Taking the behaviors of a fringe group and using them to attack others who bear the same name without doing one's due diligence is irresponsible, just like using the atrocities of the bloody Taiping Revolution (which was led by a Chinese man who said he was the second coming of Christ) to make statements about Christianity at large would be. Anybody who has years on the ground in Chinese Daoism can tell you that the variety of practices and ideas coming from people who rightly or wrongly claim to be Longmen Daoists, for instance, is nigh on infinite. If I were to use the "teachings" of one temple abbot who barbeques fish and drinks himself silly with lay visitors in the main courtyard of his temple in the middle of the day to condemn _all_ Longmen monks, that would be intellectually lazy, irresponsible, and dishonest, right? Awaken is so convicted that she has proven ready to drag on and on no matter how much contradictory evidence is posted. I don't even believe she tries to or necessarily is even able to read the counterpoints provided to her by people who are affiliated with the Dao De Center, as well as others with zero vested interest in the Dao De Center who have noted her over-the-top hypocrisy. This is both mad and maddening.

 

I showed Teacher of Single Yang's book to a lifelong Daoism researcher in Beijing a year or more ago. He immediately recognized it and immediately praised the author. Yesterday I spoke extremely briefly about Daoism research with a fairly-renowned professor who is initiated into a southern Quanzhen lineage, and the Wu-Liu school came up without him needing to say, "oh, but they're all fake." Do these anecdotes prove anything? Of course not. However, they add to the pile of abundant evidence that the Wu-Liu teachings are at the very, very least taken seriously in China by people who have devoted their lives to this field of research and practice.

 

We've all heard Awaken's point. She refuses to hear out anybody else. At a certain point, I start to catch wafts of that under-the-bridge smell, knamean?

[awaken]

This is the original posts from 漏盡閣 lo Jin ge, the biggest dao forum in China

 

This study is not written by me

 

I try to follow the manager's advice to ignore this hostility

 

And try to give the truth

 

 

 

楼主 蜀宾

收藏 2013-1-1 01:10:56

本帖最后由 蜀宾 于 2013-1-1 03:35 编辑

 

[原创] 关于柳华阳真人师承的三点考证

 

作者：蜀宾 发表日期：2013年1月 1日

（原创文章，如引用请注明出处。）

 

上世纪80年代气功潮后期，出现了“伍柳派”这一说法。之后官方及民间机构如中国道教协会，维基百科，以及著名专家学者如胡孚琛，箫天石，南怀瑾，孔令宏等也采用了这一说法。

 

但譚立三先生曾撰文指出，“伍柳從未開山立派。伍柳二真人並未於世間組建伍柳派。” http://www.regimen.com.tw/070818.htm 惜文中并未提供详细的考据。

 

本人赞同譚立三先生的意见，即历史上和现实中并不存在一个伍柳派。

 

以下凡引用伍柳二真人的著作，均采用譚立三先生校订之《伍柳天仙法脈》http://www.regimen.com.tw/regimen11.htm。

因《伍柳天仙法脈》经譚立三先生等对照多种版本认真校订，其中文字应不存在鲁鱼亥豕类问题。

 

 

一．《金仙證論》中有三处称伍真人为祖师

 

第一处在《金仙證論》決疑第十八，王會然七問，問之七：http://www.regimen.com.tw/11C182.htm

“沖虛祖師 云：外道邪法行氣，必至有病。”

 

第二处和第三处在《金仙證論》危险说：http://www.regimen.com.tw/11D15.htm

“所以伍祖師 云“闔闢不明，不能採藥皈爐。””

 

“故我沖虛祖師 云：“神雖宰炁，未知其炁可宰否？以回風混合之。””

 

从以上三处的称呼可以知道，柳真人尊称伍真人为祖师，而非师父或老师，故二人并无师弟关系。

 

 

二．《金仙證論》和《慧命经》中有五处提到老师

 

第一处在《慧命经》自序：http://www.regimen.com.tw/11D02.htm

“嗣至匡廬，又遇壺雲老師，”

 

第二处在《慧命经》禅机论第十二：http://www.regimen.com.tw/11D12.htm

“寂無老師云： “凝神收入於此竅之中，則炁隨神往，自然歸於此竅矣。””

 

第三处在《慧命经》决疑第十四，介邑秀才李思白六問，問之一：http://www.regimen.com.tw/11D142.htm

“前蒙翟友所送老師之書，初不欲觀；後強以視之，乃知有真實工夫在。”

 

第四处在《金仙證論》决疑第十八，僧豁然七问：http://www.regimen.com.tw/11C181.htm

“問之一曰：弟子愚暗，蒙老師傳授火化斷淫之法，行四個月得景，海中火發，對 斗明星。”

 

第五处在《金仙證論》决疑第十八，王会然七问：http://www.regimen.com.tw/11C182.htm

“問之一曰：弟子蒙老師傳授下手工夫，修煉兩月，得藥產之景。”

 

由上文第四，五处，豁然和王会然以弟子的身份对柳真人称老师，可以推知，上文第一，二处中壺雲和寂無与柳真人是师弟关系，正如柳真人与李思白，豁然，王会然的师弟关系。

 

这里还有一个例子。在《天仙正理直论增注》的本序的开头处：http://www.regimen.com.tw/11A.1.htm

“伍沖虛子自序曰：昔曹老師語我云：“仙道簡易，只神炁二者而已。””

 

众所周知，曹真人与伍真人是师弟关系，在这里伍称曹为老师符合二人的身份。

 

 

三. 在《金仙證論》，《慧命经》二书的决疑章中，弟子均无龙门道号

 

《金仙證論》和《慧命经》最后都有决疑一章，其中提到了多位弟子或门人。但是其中并无一人有龙门派道号。特别是其中的一位俗家弟子“介邑秀才李思白”，他的道号是琼玉，“琼”字不是龙门派字辈。

 

另外，柳真人在以上二书中，也未提到自己的龙门派道号。而伍真人在《证论》《合宗》二书中，多处

写明了他本人和弟子的龙门派道号。

 

 

四. 寂无禅师和华阳禅师属南派？

 

2009年有李子珩先生于网上发表文章，其中一篇提到：

 

“......紫阳一脉。传承甚多。虽后世稍有异同。关键处却是原来。

…… 谱上所载。以是。后则多位祖师分流。中有断。

以至雍正寂无禅师。至乾隆华阳禅师。

于清朝后期传曹京益道人。乃传周少敏。道号培仙道人。又传仙明道人。是上世纪末也。......” http://hi.baidu.com/tianyuhonlgin/item/6f7c58f2db62ac2a743c4ceb

 

笔者前不久曾联系李先生，但目前尚无回音。

 

日后如蒙李先生将南派传承古谱的相关部分公开，则柳真人师承之议题或能有明确答案。

[awaken]

This is the second posts of that thread

 

Not by me too

 

引用: 蜀宾 发表于 2016-1-22 01:04

呵呵，wd369 直言相告，敝人非常感谢。

我也直言几句I also tell something directly，供您参考。to provide you

 

我也多年参读伍柳著作, I have read Wu Liu books for many years

我的看法my option is 是伍柳的丹法the methods of Wu Liu 有高明之处,has the adventanges但伍柳的佛教方面水平不高,but Wu Liu is not very high level in Buddhism

伍在先有丹法,Wu has the methods of Dan 然后才找佛教经典来印证,and then he found some Buddhism classics to prove it 他读的佛典不比当时的佛门大德少,the Buddhism he didn't read less then Buddhists 但只是知识而已,but what he read is just knowledge 教义方面未能透彻理解.he was not very clear about meaning

柳Liu 在佛教方面In Buddhism 修养更差些,know less 他只是在道教丹法上有成而已.he just have some achievements in the methods of Dan 他在初入佛门可能环境条件所限,he might be limited by surrounding 也未受到佛门大德的教导熏陶,and he was not taught by a Buddhist teacher

看他著作,we read his books在,在佛教方面还未入门. He was just a beginner in Buddhism 说有佛家双修命脉,he said he has the Ming-Mai of both-cultivation 至少得先领会佛教法义吧,he should know the meaning of Buddhism at least 这一点都做不到,if he can't do it a little bit那就和佛教也没有多大关系. He had not much relation with Buddhism 说不定,他弟子中有佛门背景的在佛法修养上还比他强些,但那些是跟着他来学丹法的. 不能就此衬托出柳的佛法水平就高.

相比较,看著作,明清民间宗教的祖师爷罗祖的佛教水平就高很多.悟真篇作者张伯端更是深入禅门的高手.张自诩"伯端得达摩、六祖最上一乘之妙旨",这个是肯定的.

Edited December 22, 2016 by awaken

[Walker]

Ah, the copy-paste mortar attack. A well-worn strategy in online wars of attrition. Let's take a closer look, then, since we're here...

 

The first pasting above contains a fairly interesting look at the way in which the different relationships between students and teachers are described in a few Wu-Liu texts, in order to try and show that Liu didn't study with Wu, and also suggest that the two of them never formally established a lineage. It's a fairly interesting take which I can't offer an opinion on, because I don't know enough about this history nor how much we can or can't infer from naming conventions in texts. What is interesting to me is this: in that post the original author repeatedly and assiduously refers to Wu and Liu both as "realized persons" (zhenren/真人), which is a term of address reserved for highly accomplished Daoist masters. Leaving aside questions of lineal transmission of teachings in ancient times, what we see is that the author of Awaken's paste still sees Wu and Liu as high level Daoist masters. Thus, the post that Awaken uses to make one point (there is no Wu-Liu Pai) directly undermines her main point elsewhere (that Wu and Liu didn't cultivate "real" neidan).

 

The second pasting presents a similar problem. It is just an opinion piece stating that Wu, and especially Liu, didn't know Buddhism very well. Not only does its author fail to explain why, but more importantly, he or she also makes a statement that is entirely at-odds with Awaken. Namely, the author says that "the alchemical methods of Wu-Liu have wise/brilliant/superior parts, but in the area of Buddhism Wu and Liu's level was not high." Note that here Awaken here seems to wilfully ignore the word "高明" (wise/brilliant/superior) in her translation, turning it instead into the significantly muted "has advantages."

 

Since Awaken has said she doesn't always understand English, I will ask her to address these glaring discrepancies in logic in Chinese.

 

Awaken，我想請問一下兩個問題。

 

１。在你剛才發的第一個帖子裡面，作者一直把伍衝虛和柳華陽稱為『真人』。既然你選擇引用這個人的話，那，你應該是認可他的觀點，對吧？那，你是不是也認為伍衝虛和柳華陽是真人？

 

２。在第二個帖子裡面，作者說『伍柳的丹法有高明之處』。你是否認可這個觀點？

 

謝。

Edited December 22, 2016 by Walker

[Kara_mia]

Ah, the copy-paste mortar attack. A well-worn strategy in online wars of attrition. Let's take a closer look, then, since we're here...

 

The first pasting above contains a fairly interesting look at the way in which the different relationships between students and teachers are described in a few Wu-Liu texts, in order to try and show that Liu didn't study with Wu, and also suggest that the two of them never formally established a lineage. It's a fairly interesting take which I can't offer an opinion on, because I don't know enough about this history nor how much we can or can't infer from naming conventions in texts. What is interesting to me is this: in that post the original author repeatedly and assiduously refers to Wu and Liu both as "realized persons" (zhenren/真人), which is a term of address reserved for highly accomplished Daoist masters. Leaving aside questions of lineal transmission of teachings in ancient times, what we see is that the author of Awaken's paste still sees Wu and Liu as high level Daoist masters. Thus, the post that Awaken uses to make one point (there is no Wu-Liu Pai) directly undermines her main point elsewhere (that Wu and Liu didn't cultivate "real" neidan).

 

The second pasting presents a similar problem. It is just an opinion piece stating that Wu, and especially Liu, didn't know Buddhism very well. Not only does its author fail to explain why, but more importantly, he or she also makes a statement that is entirely at-odds with Awaken. Namely, the author says that "the alchemical methods of Wu-Liu have wise/brilliant/superior parts, but in the area of Buddhism Wu and Liu's level was not high." Note that here Awaken here seems to wilfully ignore the word "高明" (wise/brilliant/superior) in her translation, turning it instead into the significantly muted "has advantages."

 

Since Awaken has said she doesn't always understand English, I will ask her to address these glaring discrepancies in logic in Chinese.

 

Awaken，我想請問一下兩個問題。

 

１。在你剛才發的第一個帖子裡面，作者一直把伍衝虛和柳華陽稱為『真人』。既然你選擇引用這個人的話，那，你應該是認可他的觀點，對吧？那，你是不是也認為伍衝虛和柳華陽是真人？

 

２。在第二個帖子裡面，作者說『伍柳的丹法有高明之處』。你是否認可這個觀點？

 

謝。

 

To be honest, I'm much perplexed at her words in all threads - my husband and I have been looking for a true teacher of ming practices over 20 years cumulatively to no avail; and all that we have been told by people, who devoted their lives to Daoist research and practice is often at odds with Awaken's points.

[awaken]

真人是尊稱，一種客氣的稱呼，沒有修道人會叫自己真人的。

 

伍柳的氣功確實有一套，對於三焦層次的有為法鍛煉，是可以發揮一定的加強基礎，也就是築基的效用。

 

但是對於佛法和虛空的理解，卻有很大的錯誤，這個錯誤，誤導了許多人。

 

不懂佛法的人看不懂錯誤在哪裡，懂佛法的人一眼就看到問題所在。

 

不懂佛法的人看不到虛空的重要性，把三焦練氣的鉛氣程度之光，視為金丹，嚴重了誤解了金丹。

 

金丹必須於虛空，四空定，三昧正受，方能產生。

 

鉛氣光練得再強，即使能發出外丹，依舊不是虛空之先天真一之氣。

 

既然要練丹道，就要練真丹，不要練鉛氣丹，識神元神分不清楚的話，是練不出真金丹。

 

我只想告訴大家，要練丹道，就要練真正的金丹，不要練假的金丹，真的鉛丹。

 

如果你執著要練鉛丹，那也是你的選擇，和我無關。

 

你想證明我是錯的，依然改變不了事實。

 

事實不是建立在辯證的基礎，而是建立在實修的基礎上。

 

For me, The English part will takes a lot of time to read.i can not answer right away.

Edited December 23, 2016 by awaken

[awaken]

I don't know how to translate 高明

 

You 高估了my English ability

[Sudhamma]

There is much confusion about Buddhism and what it teaches in the earlier postings in this topic. To begin with, Buddhism in its core is about reaching nibanna, an extinction of cycle of rebirths, about the eradication of 'sufferings' and therefore, no creation of that 'dan' or elixir, the treasure sought by daoists. Given the sectarian (minor) differences within Buddhism itself, there is no mixture with Daoist beliefs, not even within the Ch'an (Zen) sect of Buddhism. Therefore, if a 'founder' of a Daoist school wants to research into this 'Dan' within Buddhism, all he needs to do is to read up the 40+ volumes of Buddhist texts (The Pali Society, UK) covering 40 years of missionary work by the (historical) Buddha plus commentaries, and he can never find any similar or parallel belief into this 'field of elixir'. Well, the most simple approach is to talk with a learned Buddhist monk and much time is saved.

[munky]

.

Edited August 23, 2023 by munky

[Mudfoot]

What is buddhism?

 

There is a Burmese based Vipassana tradition where members are forbidden to do any kind of energetic work like yoga or taiji. They may not use mindfulness based therapy in work with patients.

 

And there are Tibetan buddhists that work a lot with energetics.

 

In the Chan tradition, some do only meditation, some do some qigong, and some do quite a lot of energetic work. In chinese esoteric buddhism you might find one or two parallels to daoist practices. It is almost as if the two groups actually talked to each other at times during their history in China.

 

Still, the four noble truths are the core of the teaching, but how to realize them differs.

 

Will the real buddhism please stand up?

[damdao]

真人是尊稱，一種客氣的稱呼，沒有修道人會叫自己真人的。

 

伍柳的氣功確實有一套，對於三焦層次的有為法鍛煉，是可以發揮一定的加強基礎，也就是築基的效用。

 

但是對於佛法和虛空的理解，卻有很大的錯誤，這個錯誤，誤導了許多人。

 

不懂佛法的人看不懂錯誤在哪裡，懂佛法的人一眼就看到問題所在。

 

不懂佛法的人看不到虛空的重要性，把三焦練氣的鉛氣程度之光，視為金丹，嚴重了誤解了金丹。

 

金丹必須於虛空，四空定，三昧正受，方能產生。

 

鉛氣光練得再強，即使能發出外丹，依舊不是虛空之先天真一之氣。

 

既然要練丹道，就要練真丹，不要練鉛氣丹，識神元神分不清楚的話，是練不出真金丹。

 

我只想告訴大家，要練丹道，就要練真正的金丹，不要練假的金丹，真的鉛丹。

 

如果你執著要練鉛丹，那也是你的選擇，和我無關。

 

你想證明我是錯的，依然改變不了事實。

 

事實不是建立在辯證的基礎，而是建立在實修的基礎上。

 

For me, The English part will takes a lot of time to read.i can not answer right away.

 

Well, 真人 is not only a polite title, in fact most of times it indicates a level of  work.

 

Walker said about the second post:

 

 

The second pasting presents a similar problem. It is just an opinion piece stating that Wu, and especially Liu, didn't know Buddhism very well. Not only does its author fail to explain why

 

No explanation at all. Can you provide one?

You keep repeating that you want practice the real dan and so on, then you must continue with your personals post in the PPF section, instead you keep opening threads against a school (about which you know nothing) in this childish way.

This is not a serious or honest discussion at all.

[Sudhamma]

Dear Munky,

The emphasis in Buddhism as taught by the Buddha is never the development of the elixir as the approach to Enlightenment. You are right to say that my knowledge in Buddhism is little and even shallow, but that much as the core teaching beginning from the 4 Noble Truths, and the 8-Fold Path as the solution to the cessation of Suffering (Dukka) and hence the ending of the cycle of rebirths (Samsara) are comprehended (by me). As challenged by the Buddha, one can 'test' his Teachings (Dhamma) in the 'come and see' for oneself, Ehipassiko. 

 

Dear Mudfoot,

5 centuries after the Parinibbanna, the passing of the Buddha, there was a schism in Buddhism and the world had Mahayana branch of the religion. Though there are various sects within the two branches, Theravaden and Mahayana, the core Teachings remain unchanged. The sectarian differences are the varying emphasis and practices. One major difference between Theravaden and Mahayana is the taking of only 1 lunch-meal before noon by Theravadin monks/nuns, and taking both vegetarian lunch and dinner by Mahayana monks/nuns. There are foreign influences that are adopted within the Mahayana sects, tantric practices and the Tibetan Bon practices are evident in the Esoteric and Tibetan Buddhism. So does these foreign influences automatically disqualify these sects as non-'real' Buddhist? Far from it as the core teaching of the Buddha remains. There is the employment of 'expedient means' to reach out and to enlighten the population, as each individual is different and (spiritual) understanding and knowledge differs from each other. Will the real Buddhism please stand out? Even the Theravaden branch, said to represent the Buddha-Dhamma in its purity (and documented by The Pali Society) has undergone changes. 

[munky]

.

Edited August 23, 2023 by munky

[Sudhamma]

Thanks Munky, that's why I find this forum capitvating especially about the xiaoyao pai, the pre-creation dao (xiantien dao), the hufa shen, yuan shen,  and things which I had thought were products of a rich imagination especially that of Jinrong's.

[SeekerOfHealing]

You guys need to stop speak things you have no idea about. Buddhism is not about this or that, not about dan or not dan which Buddha stated in his sutra that he do not teach this, do not teach that, do not say this and do not that (in things like statements which you suggest that Buddha formed his philosophy or something lol). Buddha said only that he show/taught way to end of suffering and birth and death. Simple. Trying to make that Buddha make philosophy limited to itself is misunderstanding the basics of teachings. 

 

Secondly many schools (like long mena pai) do not say that golden dan or yang shen are highest.