Genuine or Mind made (Fake): feeling, experience...?

[Shad282]

Lately, I discovered that my meditation was actually hacked by a mind function that conceptualizes and creates an image of an experience and faked my experience of reality.

 

an example:  the experience or state of no-thoughts, at first it was a genuine experience and it felt really nice, during meditation. but after a while i discovered that, during my practices in the past months,  I wasn't actually in that state that I started with and i was actually in a thought of no-thoughts.

 

In other words, I was living in a conceptualized image of what i experienced first time i started the practice and the mind automated the process by attracting my awareness into it.

 

which got me question a lot of my experiences, and ask you in this thread:

 

How is it possible to identify whether the experience, state or the feeling we are having is a result of reality and not a fake, mind made image?

 

When i say between myself, i forgive that person for what he did or give love to a person or deep inside pain, how to know whether it is coming from a real feeling, and not from a conceptualized dry image of forgiveness or love?

Maybe it is by looking for the intention behind it? 

 

In buddhism, they say, you should approach pain with equanimity, and not with aversion, because aversion=resistance= persistence, but wouldn't you try to be in equanimity in order to heal (get rid) of pain which is by itself aversion but in an indirect way?

 

or when you try to allow things to be as itis, but you are allowing it to be as it is, because you want to get rid of that pain (which is not allowing).

 

Thank you,

Edited December 23, 2016 by Shad282

[Marblehead]

Excellent concept question.  How do we know our experiences are real or just us brainwashing our self?

 

I don't know of a good answer.  I'm not even sure a good answer is needed.

[cold]

If I repeat something often enough, focus on it, give it credibility, rightly or wrongly it tends to either influence my reality and or become it.

 

 For me pain physical or mental is a signal something isn't right.

 

Call me a coward if you want but I prefer to avoid discomfort of any type, unless I can foresee a benefit.

 

My greatest discomfort(s) was are a result of grief. 

 

Couldn't see it coming or didn't want to?

 

I try and pull my fears phobias out from under the bed and closet too, from time to time.

 

Are they useful?

Helping or hindering me?

Their strength over me weakens from truthful consideration and examination...

 

Couldn't avoid it.

[Shad282]

Excellent concept question.  How do we know our experiences are real or just us brainwashing our self?

 

I don't know of a good answer.  I'm not even sure a good answer is needed.

 

It is a matter of knowing whether what i m experiencing, feeling during meditation or daily life, is it authentic or not?

 

how to be authentic with our approach to the inner and outer world? 

[Marblehead]

It is a matter of knowing whether what i m experiencing, feeling during meditation or daily life, is it authentic or not?

 

how to be authentic with our approach to the inner and outer world? 

 

Cold said something valid above.

 

But still, if we think we are having a certain experience who is to say that we aren't having that certain experience?  Doesn't this link to the concept of "belief"?

 

If a person believes they saw a ghost how could anyone convince them that they really didn't see a ghost?

 

Sure, we can sometimes test the results of what we think we experienced.  But that's not always possible.

 

When we meditate and think that we are levitating I will suggest that we quickly grab something solid.

[Shad282]

Cold said something valid above.

 

But still, if we think we are having a certain experience who is to say that we aren't having that certain experience?  Doesn't this link to the concept of "belief"?

 

If a person believes they saw a ghost how could anyone convince them that they really didn't see a ghost?

 

Sure, we can sometimes test the results of what we think we experienced.  But that's not always possible.

 

When we meditate and think that we are levitating I will suggest that we quickly grab something solid.

 

I m trying to find something of more self testing, and how we can feel or know it is authentic.

I m not saying someone tell us if it is real or not or we tell others. 

 

according to what you said, how can we know if the ghost we saw was not a mind way of escape mechanism and get our focus into something else. how we can know ourselves if it is a real mind state or we dropped in a thought or dream of the mind. 

[Marblehead]

I m trying to find something of more self testing, and how we can feel or know it is authentic.

I m not saying someone tell us if it is real or not or we tell others. 

 

according to what you said, how can we know if the ghost we saw was not a mind way of escape mechanism and get our focus into something else. how we can know ourselves if it is a real mind state or we dropped in a thought or dream of the mind. 

 

Hehehe.  I'm doing my best.  I already admitted to not knowing.

 

Here's something to consider:  Our brain lies to us all the time.  It's not necessarily that these lies are intentional but it mixes up information and presents it to our conscious mind.  This is in the realm of the monkey mind.

 

Basically, our thought, feelings, and understandings of our experiences should be tested against fully conscious reality.  We need to be able to analyze the process of "cause and effect".  And it is very important to find as many of the events as possible that contribute to the cause.  The effect will remain as it was.

 

We are really talking about our illusions and delusions here.  The true roots of these can sometimes never be found because we have, over the years, created false causes for them.

[daimai]

Wouldn't asking the question be another way to trap yourself in the mind stream?

 

If you are peeling back conceptual layers, questioning validity is still a matrix in which you caught between the duality of true and false.

[sagebrush]

disagree with you Marblehead on the said comment on the monkey mind and lying.

 

so then it would equate to the meditative mind as non lying.

 

but you are certainly allowed your thought processes over there.

 

I do not take offense though.

 

I am well aware of my own lies. monkey or not

Edited December 26, 2016 by sagebrush

[Shad282]

Wouldn't asking the question be another way to trap yourself in the mind stream?

 

If you are peeling back conceptual layers, questioning validity is still a matrix in which you caught between the duality of true and false.

 

I m questioning in order to know other people's perspective on their ability to identify whether what they are experiencing is genuine and not just another fake mind made reality. 

 

It is not really trapping myself, because at the same time, not asking and just observing, could actually be kind of escaping.

I have been observing, a lot of time and such, but even my observation was trapped in a thought of thoughts. and keeping on observing would be actually ignoring that red flag that came to make me aware of what is going.

 

I m trying to change my approach, by asking while keep scanning my body, while keep focusing on my breath and such, to anchor my awareness so i don't get swallowed by the mind.

[Marblehead]

Wouldn't asking the question be another way to trap yourself in the mind stream?

 

If you are peeling back conceptual layers, questioning validity is still a matrix in which you caught between the duality of true and false.

 

I have stated before that sometimes the questions are more important than are the answers.  I think that this might be one of those times.

[Marblehead]

disagree with you Marblehead on the said comment on the monkey mind and lying.

 

I learned a long time ago that everyone is not going to agree with me.  Not a problem.

 

I'm not even sure I agree with myself in this thread.

[sagebrush]

well I don't really understand how your mind does its thinking or processing...because mine does its own thing over here.

 

and I am not going to really use "MIND" as one conglomeration because that is just debate endless.

 

I think I can grasp the conscious or collective conscious concepts.

 

what I am pointing out is that I am understanding out of your words in this particular post is that the fluctuating mind is lying.

 

here is what I think is funny.......

 

I will probably never really understand your style of processing because I think we all live in our declared cookie cutter mind.....

 

like today it is important for me to say that a branch that had fallen in the bramble as the perch is now laying on the grass....

 

is that relative to your world?

 

is this lying mind?

 

because it is monkey....

 

or the duck enjoyed my cracked corn....

 

I am comfortable within my blender of mental havoc.

 

what I find daunting or untrustworthy is that somehow I need to suspend my beliefs and put trust in some notion

 

such as some kind of Samadhi where there really is not mind or breath.....

and then persue this mode of operation to bring about peace.

 

or that I am offering up a genuine recicpe of edible food and I think someone is chiding me chicken. the soup is real I tasted it. I just made it....you don't want the ingredient list because you have no intention to make the soup.

 

albeit it is cook or a gentle prodding.

 

but what are my goals and desires

 

what is my end game so to speak.

 

under the branches of brambles is the horse head....I have mentioned that,

 

and there is also a very tall firmly planted "y" underneath it.

 

I took a photo of it this morning. just on my iphone.

 

I bought a sketch book.

 

and now I am going to go clean up my bathroom and bedroom because they are a mess after a long project at work and

 

I don't have my dryer until Tuesday.

 

 

briefly at the store( and I notice that I do this on occasion) suspend the mind a bit-

in my own tricky ways...maybe pretend or just silly games.

 

a few rows ahead of me at another check out lane was this woman....

I could only see the back of her head today....and I just watched inside myself for any bit of reaction to my though process,......

I want it to be who I want it to be......

now that is one hell of a monkey.

 

chop wood and carry water

[cold]

Is it live or is it Memorex?

 

If I don't mind does it matter?

 

Where lies my focus, interest(s), desires?

 

I see six doves, later you only see one.

 

Whom is correct?

Does it really matter?

Ever carry wood whilst swimming?

[futuredaze]

Sometimes we are experiencing phenomena directly,

 

other times our experiences are filtered through words and conceptual thinking.

 

 

These are just different types of awareness

 

that can be expanded,

 

when our thoughts guide our experience

 

and our experiences helps our thoughts to blossom.

[Shad282]

Sometimes we are experiencing phenomena directly,

 

other times our experiences are filtered through words and conceptual thinking.

 

 

These are just different types of awareness

 

that can be expanded,

 

when our thoughts guide our experience

 

and our experiences helps our thoughts to blossom.

 

Yes, it is a matter to know how to  differentiate in our daily life:

 

" Sometimes we are experiencing phenomena directly,

 

other times our experiences are filtered through words and conceptual thinking."

 

[Boy]

@Shad282: those are some wonderful thoughts. partly, what you are speaking of is reality testing. it’s an ego function. many spiritually inclined people have weak egos and have great trouble distinguishing reality from fantasy. you need to accept reality. then your questions regarding the partly-part will be answered without a doubt. did you hear me? WITHOUT A DOUBT. this is done with a therapist in lieu of the father. it’s not complicated, but you will have built up many defenses against reality which will take serious effort to break down.

 

there’s more: there is a higher reality. this is why you’re on this forum i presume. vedanta, if you take it seriously, will take you all the way. when you get ”enlightened”, preferably while in contact with a good teacher, all of your problems will disappear. you won’t die as well

[Spotless]

Lately, I discovered that my meditation was actually hacked by a mind function that conceptualizes and creates an image of an experience and faked my experience of reality.

 

an example:  the experience or state of no-thoughts, at first it was a genuine experience and it felt really nice, during meditation. but after a while i discovered that, during my practices in the past months,  I wasn't actually in that state that I started with and i was actually in a thought of no-thoughts.

 

In other words, I was living in a conceptualized image of what i experienced first time i started the practice and the mind automated the process by attracting my awareness into it.

 

which got me question a lot of my experiences, and ask you in this thread:

 

How is it possible to identify whether the experience, state or the feeling we are having is a result of reality and not a fake, mind made image?

 

When i say between myself, i forgive that person for what he did or give love to a person or deep inside pain, how to know whether it is coming from a real feeling, and not from a conceptualized dry image of forgiveness or love?

Maybe it is by looking for the intention behind it? 

 

In buddhism, they say, you should approach pain with equanimity, and not with aversion, because aversion=resistance= persistence, but wouldn't you try to be in equanimity in order to heal (get rid) of pain which is by itself aversion but in an indirect way?

 

or when you try to allow things to be as itis, but you are allowing it to be as it is, because you want to get rid of that pain (which is not allowing).

 

Thank you,

Try not to over think this - that you have noticed this "mind hack" is excellent - it has been going on for a long time. When you notice something in the Now your mind often hacks the awareness and extrapolates into the future or past - it takes the moment. It is noise and looping and mostly trance in the excitement of fear  - fear in not-doing - not making noise - allowing trance to subside and Now to abide.

 

It is the constantly talking taxi driver that IS taking the Long route because getting "there" is precisely what it fears. And - whenever "there" becomes near another future or lament for the past slides into the drivers seat along side the last driver.

It is an endless procession of "I's"

 

This is a colossal thing to see - this is the illusion - the all important extrapolations that do not exist and from which we create position upon position all based in the past.

 

In this mind hacking story there is also a very bright side - you did mention finding no-thought. Whether it was whisked away or not - you experienced it and the mind cannot take that from you.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Spotless

[Astral_butterfly]

In my humble opinion, the question is not "is it real?" but "how is this relevant to me?" "Is it symbolic in the very least of something I need to pay attention to?"

 

You know, the mind plays many tricks and even the most "tangible" elements we perceive only matter in the sense that it applies to us and our growth. So even the most "unreal" experience is here to teach us something.

 

Real has stopped mattering to me because I have found it more important to ask "does it matter?" And if so, "why?"

 

Real has even almost lost its meaning to me. Because I can perceive it, it is real. Now, in which dimension is it real? Who cares?

 

Hope this helps.

[Astral_butterfly]

 

This is a colossal thing to see - this is the illusion - the all important extrapolations that do not exist and from which we create position upon position all based in the past.

Nailed it. Real is only a prejudice based on past experience (conditioning).

If we truly accept the now, we do not question its validity.

 

I think that the basics of growth/actualisation start with self-trust. If you accept ALL of your mind's constructs as part of your reality, you will start seeing a pattern in the relationship between the events in the different dimensions and get a stronger hold on the "tangible" world, as well as integrate your various bodies.

 

My first question to you regarding the "is it real" question is this: why does it matter so much to you? Could it be a question of the illusion of the location of your control center?

Edited February 8, 2017 by Astral_butterfly

[Astral_butterfly]

You know, your question is really interesting. I was looking back at your original question and you were speaking about the misinterpretation of your experience. I will approach this from another angle.

 

You can never know how "real" your experience is in relation to what it "should" be until it happens.

It is like someone asking "when do I know I love someone for real".

 

You ironically using your mind to interpret "no-mind" is the start of a process. You have identified that your awareness was not where you thought it was. In my experience of meditation, with practice, we move in stages like this and each time we reach a new level of understanding, we get frustrated at not having grasped something fast enough. We think "next time might be the right time". But it stays just relative to the previous stage, at best an awareness of yet another flaw in our perception.

 

Until the day we stop caring about the outcome and we just let go. Then boom! We forget we are a person and we realise the control center does not exist at a level that our mind can perceive. Even the non-physical bodies are dependant on a collective ensemble of much more powerful energies. After that either everything matters or nothing matters and that is where the real work kicks in and we have to find a reason to appreciate the physical body we are in so that our mind can survive. After all, it is the precious tool that allows us to interpret our environment.

 

As long as you think no-mind is something you need to perceive with your mind, you will repeat the experience you had. No-mind is not an experience, because the you that you think you are is not the active party. No-mind is surrender.

[Shad282]

 

Until the day we stop caring about the outcome and we just let go. Then boom! We forget we are a person and we realise the control center does not exist at a level that our mind can perceive. Even the non-physical bodies are dependant on a collective ensemble of much more powerful energies. After that either everything matters or nothing matters and that is where the real work kicks in and we have to find a reason to appreciate the physical body we are in so that our mind can survive. After all, it is the precious tool that allows us to interpret our environment.

 

As long as you think no-mind is something you need to perceive with your mind, you will repeat the experience you had. No-mind is not an experience, because the you that you think you are is not the active party. No-mind is surrender.

I guess you are right, but can you explain that part above, more?

 

Thank you !

[dwai]

What is a "thought of no thought"? Is there a thought in that state or not? If there is a thought, then it is not no-thought. If there is no thought, then it is no-thought and not thought

 

When there is no thought, there still remains an awareness of no-thought as the witness is eternal. That is what "observes" the mind-stream (thoughts). 

Edited February 13, 2017 by dwai

[Shad282]

What is a "thought of no thought"? Is there a thought in that state or not? If there is a thought, then it is not no-thought. If there is no thought, then it is no-thought and not thought

 

When there is no thought, there still remains an awareness of no-thought as the witness is eternal. That is what "observes" the mind-stream (thoughts). 

it is similar to when you see something and you believe it is real but it is actually imagination/hallucination. or when you feel energy on ur skin while actually it is mind made sensational feeling. or when you hear someone calling your name, while actually no one did.

Same with when you observe that there is no thoughts, while actually there are many, but u are actually dwelling on a thought that you are mindful and that there is no other thoughts and ur mind is empty.

Mind fake experience, can infect all the sensational faculties, and mind is one of them.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Shad282

[dwai]

it is similar to when you see something and you believe it is real but it is actually imagination/hallucination. or when you feel energy on ur skin while actually it is mind made sensational feeling. or when you hear someone calling your name, while actually no one did.

Same with when you observe that there is no thoughts, while actually there are many, but u are actually dwelling on a thought that you are mindful and that there is no other thoughts and ur mind is empty.

Mind fake experience, can infect all the sensational faculties, and mind is one of them.

 

If you can rest in a thought of no-thought, then it is no thought

Thoughts by their nature are ephemeral and rise and fall. There is no persistence in thoughts...a thought might recur over and over...but it still rises and falls.