How to want to socialize?

[daimai]

Hi everyone,

I’m what would be considered those 5-10% of people that are considered “antisocial”.
 
I have done my best with behavioural and spiritual modalities that have been available to me, however despite some progress, I never have seemed to cultivate the actual desire to be around people.  And, people see through this, through my act, of “trying” to like them, but not really liking them. I feel some may resent me for it.

I am only interested in very specific things in people, which is why I can connect to only a handful of others. I can only count on 1 hand the number of people I really enjoy being with, and even then if I ask myself in my heart of hearts if I really love them, I’m not sure. I am not sure what that means, and I am not convinced.

My true interest is a selfish one, and it is an overwhelming biological impetus to achieve total liberation and freedom from pain, irritation, and discomfort. The irony is that can only happen through co-operation with others. So yes, it is a self-defeating game. However, overriding the feeling, the only thing that seems sincere, feels so forced and fake, and I secretly resent having to do it when I am around others.

I cannot count the amount of times I put on a fake smile during a day, or the amount of times I have to strain my throat to sound gentle and polite, only for it to come out sounding phony anyway. It’s emotionally painful for me to lie like this.

Naturally, I have a very small social circle. I still crave the companionship and the touch, but it’s like the saying goes, I feel much lonilier around others than I do on my own.

Does anyone have any advice? Can anyone relate? Should I perhaps tell people the truth about how I feel about them (as I just described)?  Should I clarify to myself what is an acceptable level of “love”, and do the best with what I've got?

Honestly, I pretty much love and hate everyone, including myself, in equal measure. It’s literally 50-50%.

Thanks and HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYBODY”

[Brian]

"...I still crave the companionship and the touch..."

 

^^^I would encourage you to explore this statement. I suspect it is significant.

 

I would also suggest that it it not necessary to deceive others but it is also not necessary to hurt them with honesty. Don't pretend to be someone you currently are not but also know that you are shaped by the accumulation of your experiences.

[liminal_luke]

Self-acceptance goes a long way.  It doesn`t mean that you wouldn`t at the same time like for things to be different.  There can be a sort of paradoxical acceptance of the way you are right now along with an openness (however slight) to change.

 

People can and do change all the time, and yet they mostly stay somewhat close to where they started out.  In time, you`ll likely find your way to a limited kind of campanionship that feels right to you, without ever becoming a super social person.  That`s OK - not everyone wants or needs to be outgoing.  

 

People that like to socialize, hobnob, and smooze are neither better nor worse than you. Just different.  Enjoy who you are right now and be open to talking with others, as it feels good to you, a little bit at a time.

 

My two cents.

 

LL

Edited December 24, 2016 by liminal_luke

[dust]

In my opinion.. each of us has our social limit, and trying to reach beyond it probably isn't helpful.

 

 

Where I feel I can relate to you... I've always hated being in a group of people -- anything more than 3. Even with 4 or 5 people who I know and like, after 5 minutes I long for solitude. And I've only recently -- the last 2-3 years -- begun to accept it, to realize that it's OK to not be extroverted and sociable. People who judge me poorly for it can fuck off. I have just a few people I'm genuinely comfortable being around... and I don't even want to see them very often, and that's OK. There are some wonderful people out there who completely accept it, and are happy to be friends on my antisocial terms (though I have no idea why!).

 

These days the way I manage being in a group of 3-4, to stay in touch with my closer friends, is to do something enjoyable and energy-intensive with them -- bouldering is the activity of choice now. And that way, if it's a larger group, or there are people I don't know, I don't need to talk to everyone -- just climb and pick my moments. And if we find something to talk about, that's good, and if not it doesn't matter. Also hiking, various games, etc.

 

 

Where you and I certainly differ is in our approach to those we don't feel comfortable around. You don't have to smile at people! You don't have to force politeness. Don't be obnoxious, but don't worry about "lying" to people by not acting as if you care. If it seems to you like most people are friendly and smiley and happy all the time, it's mostly an illusion. People who smile all the time are either stupid or lying.

 

You neither have to lie to people about how much you like them nor tell them outright that you don't like them, and you definitely don't need to feel guilty about any of it.

[daimai]

Wow. So I got 3 replies in this thread and all 3 were brilliant, and literally fixed my problem. Boundless gratitude and karma to you, friends.

[mvingon]

Antisocial,NPD,BPD,GAD, some full blown personality disorder or asocial, introverted, shy, c/PTSD out e innumerable other things that come to mind? Who says so? Do you fit DSM or ICD criteria?

 

More info, please.

[roger]

Daimai,

 

What everyone really needs and wants is oneness.

 

You seem to have realized, as few have, the futility of seeking oneness socially. No one ever finds it that way.

 

The only way, ultimately, to have it is to realize that you ALREADY DO!

 

We're all the SAME life, the same consciousness, the same love.

 

I am a FORM of you. It's just that we're only consciously aware of being in our bodies.

 

The deep understanding that everything is the same universal consciousness may be the solution for you.

[mvingon]

Mirror before, reflection after?

[dust]

Wow. So I got 3 replies in this thread and all 3 were brilliant, and literally fixed my problem. Boundless gratitude and karma to you, friends.

 

That's good.

 

Because I was going to say... whether or not you find what I said useful, I strongly urge that you take note of what Brian and Luke said. And roger. My post by itself could be a recipe for real loneliness. And I'm still young, and have no idea what my current take on things might lead to in later years. So I don't want anything I say to lead, even in a tiny way, to anyone else becoming lonelier. Explore that craving for companionship, but do it in a way that makes you comfortable.

[sagebrush]

exploring hobbies that I like and not forcing myself do go places that are not my thing

 

I just mentioned to my mother last night I am so relieved and happy that I am not going to any party for the holidays.

 

I just went to one a few evenings ago and I had no enjoyment and it was ridiculous that I attended.

 

the greatest part of the evening was being strong enough to leave...in the past I have just vacillated in my own misery about wanting to go-this time I executed gone. I was invited over and over to stay for dinner-hassled and begged to stay----but I had my mind made up to just attend the beginning hour or so --I wanted to visit with a retired woman from new York who is sharp and sweet visiting some other retired friends(strong word) of mine.

 

the cat veronica was amusing as well. she jumped onto the piano and investigated the gift I brought for the host.

it kept nudging the twine handles. surely she could sniff percy scent.

 

and the asparagus wrapped in a thin layer of filo dough was a nice addition to an arsenal of appetizers.

 

thanks for your posts-because I can edify my own inner/outer workings

Edited December 25, 2016 by sagebrush

[RiverSnake]

This is something i struggled with in the past. Nowadays i don't have any close-close friends (people whom i see regularly or talk to daily).

 

I have people that i see maybe once every several weeks, we chat, have a good time enjoying each others company and then we part ways once more. It's a very low maintenance friendship which i and my friends are comfortable with.  

 

Besides that, i am always by myself. It took some getting used too, but as you continue to cultivate and your energy shifts outside of the social matrix....most people will not resonate with you and thus slip outside of your sphere.

 

Here's a little experiment, turn off all the electronics, music...etc. Any and all distractions turn them off and just sit with yourself in complete silence....see how long you can sit by yourself without getting that itch to do something or feel uncomfortable....the longer your able to stay in that emptiness the easier being on your own will be.  

[Shad282]

i think you should investigate more your relationship with yourself, do you really genuinely, authentically love/like yourself ?

 

because usually, our relationship with ourselves is mirrored around us, in people and events. make sure your feelings toward yourself are authentic and not just "i love myself", and look at your past, childhood and teenage years, could be events and other people's judgements made you judge yourself and affect your relationship with yourself and so with others.

 

As it is been said before, it is ok to not be sooo extravert and very sociable and wooohh, even tho some people may make you feel as wrong, bad and you should be moooreee sociable and love everyone....

 

Never mind people, you are perfectly great and right, just be, love, like yourself !

 

Merry Christmas !  

[daimai]

Thanks for sharing and caring, everybody, it put some much appreciated light on my holiday season.

 

Here's a funny story about the perseverance of ego:

 

I didn't have any plans for Christmas eve last night so I hung out with one of my appartment neighbors, totally at random, and we shot the shit all night and laughed our asses off talking about the universe.  It was one of the deepest and most genuine connectional experiences I've had in a long time.

 

I went back feeling awesome, understood, amazing. I thought to myself, holy shit, I really am capable of being an awesome friend and bonding with others.   I knew in my heart that this was a genuine experience.

 

The next day, still feeling great,  I posted  something on Facebook (yes I know, I know) that barely got any "likes" and I became morbidly and irrationally upset about it, as I do every time that usually happens.    That shit really triggers those primitive "tribal rejection circuits" and I couldn't believe how much it affected me!

 

I start thinking, man, all those people getting hoards of likes for everything they post.  I put my heart and soul into the content I put out and most everyone ignores it, even people that I know personally.

 

I know the reality of my situation. Facebook is completely fake and irrelevant, and yet I get such a strong emotional reaction from what happens there, and it really does paint my perception of my self esteem and my life.

 

So the irony is that despite the fact that I had one of the greatest and most sincere real-life experiences, I was still upset because some online strangers didn't acknowledge my existence *sigh*.

 

It's not that I want the attention, what I want is the rush of feeling connected to other people. The incredible joy of knowing someone enjoyed something you put out there, that it made their life a little bit better, more fun, interesting. That maybe we have more in common than not, and that the world isn't so bad after all..

 

I know what to do though, equanimity. No thought of loss or gain. No need to count friends.  However, it still feels that anguishing feeling of loneliness.    I know it is totally transient. I know I will totally forget about this in a very short period of time but still, gosh, it's frustrating to deal with and I wanna learn how to deal with it in the best way that I can.. 

 

Much love to y'all.  I feel like I can connect to most of your posts more than most people.  If it means anything to anyone man, it makes me feel good inside.

Edited December 25, 2016 by daimai

[Shad282]

Thanks for sharing and caring, everybody, it put some much appreciated light on my holiday season.

 

Here's a funny story about the perseverance of ego:

 

I didn't have any plans for Christmas eve last night so I hung out with one of my appartment neighbors, totally at random, and we shot the shit all night and laughed our asses off talking about the universe.  It was one of the deepest and most genuine connectional experiences I've had in a long time.

 

I went back feeling awesome, understood, amazing. I thought to myself, holy shit, I really am capable of being an awesome friend and bonding with others.   I knew in my heart that this was a genuine experience.

 

The next day, still feeling great,  I posted  something on Facebook (yes I know, I know) that barely got any "likes" and I became morbidly and irrationally upset about it, as I do every time that usually happens.    That shit really triggers those primitive "tribal rejection circuits" and I couldn't believe how much it affected me!

 

I start thinking, man, all those people getting hoards of likes for everything they post.  I put my heart and soul into the content I put out and most everyone ignores it, even people that I know personally.

 

I know the reality of my situation. Facebook is completely fake and irrelevant, and yet I get such a strong emotional reaction from what happens there, and it really does paint my perception of my self esteem and my life.

 

So the irony is that despite the fact that I had one of the greatest and most sincere real-life experiences, I was still upset because some online strangers didn't acknowledge my existence *sigh*.

 

It's not that I want the attention, what I want is the rush of feeling connected to other people. The incredible joy of knowing someone enjoyed something you put out there, that it made their life a little bit better, more fun, interesting. That maybe we have more in common than not, and that the world isn't so bad after all..

 

I know what to do though, equanimity. No thought of loss or gain. No need to count friends.  However, it still feels that anguishing feeling of loneliness.    I know it is totally transient. I know I will totally forget about this in a very short period of time but still, gosh, it's frustrating to deal with and I wanna learn how to deal with it in the best way that I can.. 

 

Much love to y'all.  I feel like I can connect to most of your posts more than most people.  If it means anything to anyone man, it makes me feel good inside.

 

The solution of what you are talking about is not by the outside. 

 

an Example, someone who thinks he is a failure and stupid, may become someone rich, successful and everybody tell him that he is smart and intelligent... but once someone or something (mind thoughts) describe him as a failure and stupid, he will get triggered back into that negative thinking and back to low self. due to the internal belief about himself that he is failure and stupid deep down his subconscious.

 

It is not about what you do in the external reality with others, it is about what you do internally with yourself. 

 

it is a past belief, that needs to be loved and recognized from its roots, so work on that. 

 

For me, i don't really give a damn, about people seeing me as sociable or not, it doesn't trigger anything really. that is why getting like on a post or photo isn't a problem to me. because i m not seeking attention or recognition from facebook users. 

but you do get triggered for a deep reason. Triggers are important, and what u went through (the post and feeling upset) is really important so you would understand a great teaching, "it is about internal (subconscious, beliefs) work". 

 

Trust me, A LOT, and i mean it, A LOT ! of people force themselves to be sociable, post on fb words, photos, to get attention to feel belongness to society, to be recognized, validated by the society....etc and if they post something and don't get more than 100 likes, they get upset and depressed. 

 

Be careful of the camouflage feelings and thoughts, we may feel that we are looking for a connection that is special with others and someone being joyful for what you did, while it could be some sort of seeking validation from others maybe to feel worthy ?

but i can't judge that, you can. but what i mean, is that sometimes feeling/thoughts may camouflage themselves in other feelings, like i just want this and it is completely normal and a need, but actually the deep root for this is a fear, anxiety, ...etc.

 

you spoke about equanimity, equanimity is not a way of thinking, it is a way of feeling. equanimity, means no aversion, no desire, but not on a thought level (talking to yourself, or thinking about it) it is an experience.  for example: You can say to a situation , "oh i allow you to be as", but deep down, you are saying this in order to change the situation and not allow it as it is. You have to authentically, genuinely feel that you want it to be as it is and you really, authentically, genuinely have no aversion or desire toward that situation. 

 

Feelings are a good tool to test whether your thoughts are genuine.

 

 

 

Edit: I edited a lot of things, please consider re-reading, in case things weren't clear. Sometimes, I have a lot of thoughts while typing, to the degree that i get lost in them.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Shad282

[daimai]

Thanks Shad. I'll digest that a bit

 

Tonight I had dinner with another friend I just met and again, I had an amazing time.

 

I just came back from a meditation retreat so I am trying to observe my thought process if I get emotionally (socially) hurt, and by the way shad, I commend you on your ability to remain peaceful in this regard, that is very inspiring.

 

Mostly I wonder why I as an individual feel hurt if the nature of my self is the totality of existence, then why do "I" get hurt? I can see that it is because "other" is having an experience that I would like to have and "I" feels pain when it doesn't get it, or sees other experience/enjoy it. It's only my isolated and separate I that gets hurt.  It gets more separated and isolated in that hurt and sees even less clearly.

 

The idea of exiting the social matrix is one that is very interesting to me now, however, I still want to play the game. I want to try and figure out to maximize on my professional career and things like that too.

 

I want to be willing to fail, see myself clearly and honestly and be able to laugh at myself.

Edited December 26, 2016 by daimai

[daimai]

I totally get the "low maintenance/no investment thing".  I often have to very calculate to whom and how long I am going invest this energy to during the day not to get exhausted.

 

I feel that I am doing something wrong by not investing more energy into these things, when my natural inclination is much more to cultivate spirit. 

 

I am still pulled by muses, eros, symbols that pull me into the outer world.  I appreciate your moldening and forging process.  Society tells us we need to meet certain social criteria to be accepted, and those that do not want to play the game are the shadow of the cultural ideology. 

 

This is something i struggled with in the past. Nowadays i don't have any close-close friends (people whom i see regularly or talk to daily).

 

I have people that i see maybe once every several weeks, we chat, have a good time enjoying each others company and then we part ways once more. It's a very low maintenance friendship which i and my friends are comfortable with.  

 

Besides that, i am always by myself. It took some getting used too, but as you continue to cultivate and your energy shifts outside of the social matrix....most people will not resonate with you and thus slip outside of your sphere.

 

Here's a little experiment, turn off all the electronics, music...etc. Any and all distractions turn them off and just sit with yourself in complete silence....see how long you can sit by yourself without getting that itch to do something or feel uncomfortable....the longer your able to stay in that emptiness the easier being on your own will be.  

Edited December 26, 2016 by daimai

[daimai]

That's good.

 

Because I was going to say... whether or not you find what I said useful, I strongly urge that you take note of what Brian and Luke said. And roger. My post by itself could be a recipe for real loneliness. And I'm still young, and have no idea what my current take on things might lead to in later years. So I don't want anything I say to lead, even in a tiny way, to anyone else becoming lonelier. Explore that craving for companionship, but do it in a way that makes you comfortable.

 

How old are you? I understand your sentiment. I refrain from teaching not knowing which way I could steer a person's destiny. However, I think it's good to remember that the Tao does not contain any mistakes. You could not possibly make an error but it must always feel like you might make one.

[daimai]

This absolutely blew my mind

 

Edited December 26, 2016 by daimai

[dust]

How old are you? I understand your sentiment. I refrain from teaching not knowing which way I could steer a person's destiny. However, I think it's good to remember that the Tao does not contain any mistakes. You could not possibly make an error but it must always feel like you might make one.

 

In my 30s.

 

I'm not one who believes in the absolute wisdom of age, or stupidity of youth -- some people get to 90 still believing the most foolish things, and some teenagers are as wise as can be, with a lifetime's experience already. At best I'm average in wisdom, but my experience & examination of being sociable vs being solitary is pretty substantial by now! But I cannot predict the future.

 

You said in the OP,

"I cannot count the amount of times I put on a fake smile during a day, or the amount of times I have to strain my throat to sound gentle and polite, only for it to come out sounding phony anyway. It’s emotionally painful for me to lie like this."

 

I'm curious, exactly how phony do you think you sound? How fake is your fake smile? Can you find a reason to smile for real? Maybe it's nice weather outside, or you're looking forward to lunch, or you just saw a pretty lady, etc -- can't you use some positive feeling to put on a genuine smile? It's not directly aimed at the other person, you're not smiling because you love smiling at them, but neither is it a lie. You feel good about something, and you smile.

 

As a fellow antisocialite... I've found that if I manage a genuine smile at the right moment, and aim it at someone else, they'll be taken in a little by it, and they might even smile back. And some will scowl and think I'm crazy...but that's cool. It's nice to see people smile.

 

Anyway, sounds like you've had some good experiences recently.

[Shad282]

 

Mostly I wonder why I as an individual feel hurt if the nature of my self is the totality of existence, then why do "I" get hurt? I can see that it is because "other" is having an experience that I would like to have and "I" feels pain when it doesn't get it, or sees other experience/enjoy it. It's only my isolated and separate I that gets hurt.  It gets more separated and isolated in that hurt and sees even less clearly.

 

 

 

Because, it is the mind. The mind is a tool, that work in a certain way, and if applied on everything in your life, it is misused and may cause issue, problems, like getting hurt, sadness, ...etc.

 

you have to know the mind, how it works, how and when to use it. It is important to recognize yourself as the awareness that uses that tool, and not the opposite. 

[mvingon]

Kafka is a favorite author, of mine, but while watching this video, I was also reminded of Camus. I think it was the description the narrator used, of the legal process, and am article I read about whistleblowers, earlier.

[roger]

Mostly I wonder why I as an individual feel hurt if the nature of my self is the totality of existence, then why do "I" get hurt?

 

What I see here is that there's a deep curiosity in you about something very specific, which basically everyone has, whether they're conscious of it or not.

 

What it is is the need to recognize GUILT as it is, to see that the fundamental problem, the block that keeps us from knowing oneness, and the basic illusion that causes suffering, is the false idea that we are guilty.

 

Hurt feelings, anger, and fear, arise out of guilt.

 

The truth is that we're all innocent- no one is guilty.

 

I just want to recommend something very powerful, that can help tremendously.

 

For a few days or so, a few times each day, say to yourself, "I am guilty of nothing. Mark is guilty of nothing. Sara is guilty of nothing." Use whoever comes to mind, for a minute or so.

 

What you'll be doing is training yourself to see yourself and everyone as innocent.

 

I hope this helps.

[daimai]

Aha thank you!! I've pondered this lot's of times, especially after Alan Watts opened my eyes to the Christian origins of guilt.

 

It's funny that you say this because I subliminally carry the opposite belief, that everyone is guilty and doesn't know that they're actually a hypocrite.

 

I will put the innocence paradigm into practice. I know it is much healthier.

 

What I see here is that there's a deep curiosity in you about something very specific, which basically everyone has, whether they're conscious of it or not.

 

What it is is the need to recognize GUILT as it is, to see that the fundamental problem, the block that keeps us from knowing oneness, and the basic illusion that causes suffering, is the false idea that we are guilty.

 

Hurt feelings, anger, and fear, arise out of guilt.

 

The truth is that we're all innocent- no one is guilty.

 

I just want to recommend something very powerful, that can help tremendously.

 

For a few days or so, a few times each day, say to yourself, "I am guilty of nothing. Mark is guilty of nothing. Sara is guilty of nothing." Use whoever comes to mind, for a minute or so.

 

What you'll be doing is training yourself to see yourself and everyone as innocent.

 

I hope this helps.

[bojole]

Check this - http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42944-the-spleen-chakra/

 

Balanced Spleen means openness. Maybe you are not open enough and/or don't enjoy being with others?

Edited December 29, 2016 by bojole