Trump's bazi chart

[Taomeow]

Folks, we have another elemental.  I remember seeing a royal chart for the first time -- that of Prince Charles -- and thinking, whoa, this is not even an organic being, this is a djinn.  

 

Trump's is almost like that -- only two phases, Earth and Fire, if you don't count one place for Wood which, under these conditions, will promptly burn down to transform into more Earth.  This is a far luckier elemental's chart than that of Prince Charles though.  Prince Charles does not have anything but conflict between his two phases (Fire and Water), although of course he would know how to use them either alchemically or black-magically (take a wild guess which he is more likely to resort to.)  Trump's is a different story altogether -- all he has is the Self phase and the Support (Mother) phase for it.  It's a lifelong situation of having your pie and eating it too. 

 

The over-representation of the Self (Earth, which is both his proprietary and his dominant) also translates into as many competitors and enemies as friends and supporters -- in this case, their numbers can reach astronomical figures.  He will care about Earth and Fire, to be sure, and about nothing else.  Study what these phases of qi are about and you will know Trump better than you know yourself (you are more complex, not as easy to read!)

 

 Elementals...  they are all one trick ponies, or two trick ponies at best.  But that's who we get to rule our species.  We (many of us) still believe we elect them...  but in reality, all we do is perform a ritual dance while the next elemental in line is being anointed. 

 

His chart is full of lucky stars too...  a strong, powerful chart for a semiorganic (a human couldn't possibly survive one like this without major disasters -- if at all).  Now I understand how what happened could happen a whole lot better.  This is a royal chart, folks.  Which, for our species, usually translates into a royal pain in the ass.  But when you're dealing with an archon king, you can't expect peaches and cream (a different phase altogether.)

 

All that remains is to hope for an enlightened monarch...  the stars have given him what it takes since enlightenment,  Light (Fire) is his resource phase.  Set the world on fire?  Ample resources for that too.  It depends on who or what wins in realms we can't access or assess. 

[Aetherous]

Heiner Fruehauf, a Chinese Medicine figure, recently did his own analysis of Trump. Most found it disagreeable...but putting another Chinese culture/Daoist perspective out there.

[mvingon]

I almost didn't click this thread, but I'm glad I did. Something that immediately popped to mind, when i read about enemies and friends is the phrase Facebookers around me use: frenemies?

[Taomeow]

Heiner Fruehauf, a Chinese Medicine figure, recently did his own analysis of Trump. Most found it disagreeable...but putting another Chinese culture/Daoist perspective out there.

 

Well, it's his right to take a stool sample if that's how he prefers to analyze (that's traditional German medicine, by the way.)  Trump has no Metal in his chart though.  As in, zip, zilch, not his circus, not his monkeys.  So I didn't dig deep into Herr Fruehauf's analysis, since it has the name Trump pasted onto someone else's chart.  

[Taomeow]

I almost didn't click this thread, but I'm glad I did. Something that immediately popped to mind, when i read about enemies and friends is the phrase Facebookers around me use: frenemies?

 

Nice word.   Yes, that's exactly the situation when one's Proprietary or Self phase is excessive: a lot of people around who are "like me," "my kind," "my type," which translates into a heightened potential to make friends and to gain competitors, challengers, people who feel they are "as good as you" or better in terms of deserving whatever you have that they want -- because they are indeed people "like you!"  Frenemies material.  Someone who is either intuitively attuned to these things, naturally altruistic, or trained in bazi reading (or all of these ) will probably make more friends than enemies, the opposite character will make more enemies than friends, but neither one is immune to frenemies.  An enemy who is a former friend is not unheard of.  The opposite is rare, but it happens too... 

[Aetherous]

So I didn't dig deep into Herr Fruehauf's analysis, since it has the name Trump pasted onto someone else's chart.

 

I thought exactly the same thing.

[MooNiNite]

I did Trump on a website and he had some wood and metal

 

The only inputs that were used was gender, name, and birthday. 

Edited December 27, 2016 by MooNiNite

[mvingon]

Thank you, Taomeow. I know nothing of bazi, which is what generated my curiosity.

[Taomeow]

I did Trump on a website and he had some wood and metal

 

The only inputs that were used was gender, name, and birthday. 

 

 

He does have one character for Wood, which I mentioned, but this is one Wood in three Fire in four Dry Earth -- think a wooden match thrown into that. 

 

He may have tons of stuff in Hidden Stems, Metal and what have you, but I'm not committed enough to do the Hidden ones, it's actually a lot of extra work to analyze them and determine in what years specifically they become active, and under what Stars, and how they play into the picture when they clash against a Pillar and when they support it and yada yada...  a lot of work.  The internet calculators that show them, all they do is confuse the untrained.   If Trump was to hire me for a reading, I would "go there," but he has his own Chinese astrology consultant...  so, let her spell it out to him. 

 

Which I'm pretty sure she already did.  The election day specifically was a bazi adventure...  and the recount, ha! -- there was a stellar hour for Hillary, very bad for Trump, if the voters were fast and ended the vote early rather than late (assuming it mattered at all, but what the hell, I'll play if the game is on), astrologically she would have a big advantage.  The longer the voting dragged on, the better for Trump, however -- the farther from that bad hour and the closer to the auspicious one.      

Edited December 27, 2016 by Taomeow

[Golden Dragon Shining]

=

Edited December 27, 2016 by Sionnach

[MooNiNite]

All that remains is to hope for an enlightened monarch...  the stars have given him what it takes since enlightenment.

 

What do you mean by enlightenment?

[Taomeow]

What do you mean by enlightenment?

 

Ack, in English the word "enlightened" has all those spiritual connotations, and there's no other word (to my knowledge -- correct me if I'm wrong) to express something similar but strictly secular/social.  In Russian it's two different words, both derived from "light" but you would use a different one speaking of a monarch rather than a sage, and it means someone who knows what's what and treats the information in a manner benevolent to his subjects.  I referred to the possibility because Fire is abundant in Trump's chart, and is his Mother phase, so he can be this kind of monarch, using Fire as Light in the broad social sense...  But he can actually use it any which way -- e.g as making truth visible and known...  as a spotlight on himself...  as favoring fossil fuel industries...  as firearms, even nukes, he's got enough Fire for any of these and more.  But what I was hoping for was the wise choice of how to use it.  Light that results in the state of being informed (things brought to the light) and benevolent.  A tall order, but one can always hope.    

[KuroShiro]

Folks, we have another elemental.  I remember seeing a royal chart for the first time -- that of Prince Charles -- and thinking, whoa, this is not even an organic being, this is a djinn.  

 

Trump's is almost like that -- only two phases, Earth and Fire, if you don't count one place for Wood which, under these conditions, will promptly burn down to transform into more Earth.  This is a far luckier elemental's chart than that of Prince Charles though.  Prince Charles does not have anything but conflict between his two phases (Fire and Water), although of course he would know how to use them either alchemically or black-magically (take a wild guess which he is more likely to resort to.)  Trump's is a different story altogether -- all he has is the Self phase and the Support (Mother) phase for it.  It's a lifelong situation of having your pie and eating it too. 

 

The over-representation of the Self (Earth, which is both his proprietary and his dominant) also translates into as many competitors and enemies as friends and supporters -- in this case, their numbers can reach astronomical figures.  He will care about Earth and Fire, to be sure, and about nothing else.  Study what these phases of qi are about and you will know Trump better than you know yourself (you are more complex, not as easy to read!)

 

 Elementals...  they are all one trick ponies, or two trick ponies at best.  But that's who we get to rule our species.  We (many of us) still believe we elect them...  but in reality, all we do is perform a ritual dance while the next elemental in line is being anointed. 

 

His chart is full of lucky stars too...  a strong, powerful chart for a semiorganic (a human couldn't possibly survive one like this without major disasters -- if at all).  Now I understand how what happened could happen a whole lot better.  This is a royal chart, folks.  Which, for our species, usually translates into a royal pain in the ass.  But when you're dealing with an archon king, you can't expect peaches and cream (a different phase altogether.)

 

All that remains is to hope for an enlightened monarch...  the stars have given him what it takes since enlightenment,  Light (Fire) is his resource phase.  Set the world on fire?  Ample resources for that too.  It depends on who or what wins in realms we can't access or assess. 

 

Could you please tell me what do you mean by we have another elemental? What is an elemental?

 

I know nothing about bazi charts, is this related to Wu Xing?

 

I called Trump's win in Sept/Oct 2015, I believe simple based on common sense

[Taomeow]

Could you please tell me what do you mean by we have another elemental? What is an elemental?

 

I know nothing about bazi charts, is this related to Wu Xing?

 

I called Trump's win in Sept/Oct 2015, I believe simple based on common sense

 

Yes, it is related to wuxing analysis of the Four Pillars or the Eight Characters (bazi), the main method of analyzing the natal chart in Chinese astrology. 

 

Wuxing, the five phases or types of qi that account for the bulk of the fundamental interactions of energies in the universe, are usually translated into English as "elements" -- Water, Wood, etc. -- but of course the "elements" themselves are only a fraction of these qi phases' manifestations, and ought to be understood as such.  I.e. not just metaphors -- the actual elements, substances, are real and are part of a particular type of qi -- but the type of qi named after them is not limited to them, it's infinitely greater.  They are processes.  E.g. Metal is not just metal the substance, but the process of the formation of stars from interstellar gas and of hemoglobin of the human blood.  Wood is not just a daisy or an oak but DNA-based life in the universe.  And so on.  

 

So, live creatures typically have all five wuxing phases in their overall qi pattern, in countless types of interactions, which a bazi reader studies and analyses.  In times unbalanced, like ours, many people have a phase missing, i.e. four instead of five, it's not unusual, though not ideal.  Quite a few have two phases missing, which is a more challenging scenario.  And then there's the ones who are missing three, or even four.  These I call "elementals," it's not an official bazi term, it's from another (western) tradition, so I use it a bit tongue-in-cheek.  Elementals are understood as creatures made up of only one "element" -- e.g. Fire (djinn), Earth (ghoul), and so on. 

 

When there's two (or as in the case of Trump "almost" three but, because of what phases they are, as good as two), it's something semisynthetic, a transitional creature between a one-element being and a live human being.  I've seen two-element charts of "people" who are actually royal bloodlines, or else people in huge trouble (sick every which way, addicted to drugs in a hardcore way, etc.)  It also depends on which phases are there.  If it's a mother-child phases combo, like with Trump, this is a very strong and lucky (though not necessarily very human) chart.  If it's a self/destroyer-of-self combo...  this is disastrous for a mere mortal, but may be a separate subject of study  and a different dynamic in the realm of the not-quite-human beings. 

 

Bazi is absolutely universal and can be applied as a tool of analysis to anything live, semisynthetic, built or created or otherwise having a beginning. 

[KuroShiro]

Yes, it is related to wuxing analysis of the Four Pillars or the Eight Characters (bazi), the main method of analyzing the natal chart in Chinese astrology. 

 

Wuxing, the five phases or types of qi that account for the bulk of the fundamental interactions of energies in the universe, are usually translated into English as "elements" -- Water, Wood, etc. -- but of course the "elements" themselves are only a fraction of these qi phases' manifestations, and ought to be understood as such.  I.e. not just metaphors -- the actual elements, substances, are real and are part of a particular type of qi -- but the type of qi named after them is not limited to them, it's infinitely greater.  They are processes.  E.g. Metal is not just metal the substance, but the process of the formation of stars from interstellar gas and of hemoglobin of the human blood.  Wood is not just a daisy or an oak but DNA-based life in the universe.  And so on.  

 

So, live creatures typically have all five wuxing phases in their overall qi pattern, in countless types of interactions, which a bazi reader studies and analyses.  In times unbalanced, like ours, many people have a phase missing, i.e. four instead of five, it's not unusual, though not ideal.  Quite a few have two phases missing, which is a more challenging scenario.  And then there's the ones who are missing three, or even four.  These I call "elementals," it's not an official bazi term, it's from another (western) tradition, so I use it a bit tongue-in-cheek.  Elementals are understood as creatures made up of only one "element" -- e.g. Fire (djinn), Earth (ghoul), and so on. 

 

When there's two (or as in the case of Trump "almost" three but, because of what phases they are, as good as two), it's something semisynthetic, a transitional creature between a one-element being and a live human being.  I've seen two-element charts of "people" who are actually royal bloodlines, or else people in huge trouble (sick every which way, addicted to drugs in a hardcore way, etc.)  It also depends on which phases are there.  If it's a mother-child phases combo, like with Trump, this is a very strong and lucky (though not necessarily very human) chart.  If it's a self/destroyer-of-self combo...  this is disastrous for a mere mortal, but may be a separate subject of study  and a different dynamic in the realm of the not-quite-human beings. 

 

Bazi is absolutely universal and can be applied as a tool of analysis to anything live, semisynthetic, built or created or otherwise having a beginning. 

 

Thank you very much for your reply.

 

 

I'm studying Wu Xing only in context of Classical Acupuncture.

 

I don't understand when you say:

 

"So, live creatures typically have all five wuxing phases in their overall qi pattern, in countless types of interactions, which a bazi reader studies and analyses.  In times unbalanced, like ours, many people have a phase missing, i.e. four instead of five, it's not unusual, though not ideal.  Quite a few have two phases missing, which is a more challenging scenario.  And then there's the ones who are missing three, or even four. "

 

Do you mean there are people who don't have qi in their bodies of one or more elements?

[Taomeow]

Thank you very much for your reply.

 

 

I'm studying Wu Xing only in context of Classical Acupuncture.

 

I don't understand when you say:

 

"So, live creatures typically have all five wuxing phases in their overall qi pattern, in countless types of interactions, which a bazi reader studies and analyses.  In times unbalanced, like ours, many people have a phase missing, i.e. four instead of five, it's not unusual, though not ideal.  Quite a few have two phases missing, which is a more challenging scenario.  And then there's the ones who are missing three, or even four. "

 

Do you mean there are people who don't have qi in their bodies of one or more elements?

 

Yes, that's what I mean.  Of course they do get it in some amounts indirectly, e.g. if they have Water missing from the chart, it doesn't mean they have no physical Water in the body, rather it means they don't have a ready direct functional configuration of the body-mind-spirit-destiny for Water qi, but they do get some Water qi indirectly from Metal -- provided they have Metal in their chart.  If they are missing Wood but have plenty of Water, they get Wood indirectly from Water.  But there's as many situations as there's people, and some are extremely challenging.  Picture a wuxing layout with both Water and Wood missing -- so, this person might get Water from Metal but Wood will only get droplets from that secondary Water...  very hard to balance.  Or, Fire is missing and Water is so massive that even if a bit of Wood is there, it may be not enough to sustain the secondary Fire, because Water will keep putting it out. With wuxing analysis, one can see the overall picture right away, and then there's complexities that can go very deep...  And no two charts are identical -- even in identical twins, if they were born in different Hours, there will be a difference in qi and consequently in destiny.

 

Also this is very interesting to look at if you see the charts of all family members -- the family dynamics become crystal clear, qi interactions underlie human interactions in all cases.  Who kisses and who offers the cheek to kiss, and why.  Why some relationships work with some investment of effort, some, effortlessly, and some, never.  And so on. 

[KuroShiro]

Yes, that's what I mean.  Of course they do get it in some amounts indirectly, e.g. if they have Water missing from the chart, it doesn't mean they have no physical Water in the body, rather it means they don't have a ready direct functional configuration of the body-mind-spirit-destiny for Water qi, but they do get some Water qi indirectly from Metal -- provided they have Metal in their chart.  If they are missing Wood but have plenty of Water, they get Wood indirectly from Water.  But there's as many situations as there's people, and some are extremely challenging.  Picture a wuxing layout with both Water and Wood missing -- so, this person might get Water from Metal but Wood will only get droplets from that secondary Water...  very hard to balance.  Or, Fire is missing and Water is so massive that even if a bit of Wood is there, it may be not enough to sustain the secondary Fire, because Water will keep putting it out. With wuxing analysis, one can see the overall picture right away, and then there's complexities that can go very deep...  And no two charts are identical -- even in identical twins, if they were born in different Hours, there will be a difference in qi and consequently in destiny.

 

Also this is very interesting to look at if you see the charts of all family members -- the family dynamics become crystal clear, qi interactions underlie human interactions in all cases.  Who kisses and who offers the cheek to kiss, and why.  Why some relationships work with some investment of effort, some, effortlessly, and some, never.  And so on. 

 

Thank you.

 

 

"Of course they do get it in some amounts indirectly, e.g. if they have Water missing from the chart, it doesn't mean they have no physical Water in the body, rather it means they don't have a ready direct functional configuration of the body-mind-spirit-destiny for Water qi, but they do get some Water qi indirectly from Metal -- provided they have Metal in their chart."

 

Do you know how these results from the chart would compare with five element acupuncture diagnostic methods?

Is the lack of "a ready direct functional configuration of the body-mind-spirit-destiny for Water qi" in the same realm as the one the acupuncturist deals with?

 

 

Regarding the identical twins it seems they aren't identical at all, so the chart is correct.

 

The connection with relationships outcome is also true, I have books on my wish list to read about that but again related to acupuncture diagnosis. Also probably a connection with Wu Xing and the so-called chemistry?

 

 

What about elements within elements?

[Taomeow]

Thank you.

 

 

"Of course they do get it in some amounts indirectly, e.g. if they have Water missing from the chart, it doesn't mean they have no physical Water in the body, rather it means they don't have a ready direct functional configuration of the body-mind-spirit-destiny for Water qi, but they do get some Water qi indirectly from Metal -- provided they have Metal in their chart."

 

Do you know how these results from the chart would compare with five element acupuncture diagnostic methods?

Is the lack of "a ready direct functional configuration of the body-mind-spirit-destiny for Water qi" in the same realm as the one the acupuncturist deals with?

 

 

Regarding the identical twins it seems they aren't identical at all, so the chart is correct.

 

The connection with relationships outcome is also true, I have books on my wish list to read about that but again related to acupuncture diagnosis. Also probably a connection with Wu Xing and the so-called chemistry?

 

 

What about elements within elements?

 

Far as I know, it used to be fundamental for an acupuncturist to be able to determine the underlying "wuxing type," not something temporarily manifesting in a right-now disorder but something that is the distinct lifelong qi pattern.  I remember Ted Kaptchuk (who first introduced acupuncture to the West) writing about an acupuncture practitioner who might not only diagnose a patient with Dampness but infer from the medical exam that the patient lives in a damp basement, and that the configuration of his idiosyncratic qi is what led him into the damp basement to begin with, so Dampness that is immediately observable is merely a side effect of Water Excess that is a destiny condition for this individual. 

 

Personally, I encountered one practitioner, in Xi'an, trained classically (one on one by two old teachers, for many years) and very differently from how they teach acupuncturists en masse these days, who blew my mind by reading my main bazi characteristics on sight, immediately, without actually having the information.  One look and he announced my "wuxing type" with absolute accuracy (per my own bazi readings).  His subsequent protocol took into account this understanding of "who I am."  But he was super talented as a diagnostician, I doubt this is something every practitioner could do on sight -- though looks like they used to get the training for how to do it, but not anymore.

 

As for the "connection of the wuxing with the so-called chemistry" -- yes and yes, most definitely.  Oh, a huge yes.  The chemistry can be treacherous though, because the pull toward what you're missing is sometimes not as strong as the pull toward what comes easy (i.e. is already excessive).  Knowing from bazi what's behind chemistry, what underlies it -- a drive toward balance or a self-destructive one -- is a big boon. 

 

As for "elements within elements," that's very true and valid, and tends to be very complex.  Like all taoist sciences, this can go in-depth indefinitely, there's no bottom.  So, a step deeper from the basic layout, you might have to look at, not just, e.g., Earth but Dry Earth, Swamp, Desert, Wooded Earth, Earth pierced by Metal, Fireball Earth, Fertile Earth, etc., and have to do the same for each of the remaining wuxing phases, and what emerges is a very complex landscape with its idiosyncratic climate, observed over different seasons, under different conditions (cultivation or destruction or not-doing), and so on.  Each man and each woman is a planet, with its complex interactions of energies of the world.  A bazi reading is akin to mapping this planet... 

[KuroShiro]

Far as I know, it used to be fundamental for an acupuncturist to be able to determine the underlying "wuxing type," not something temporarily manifesting in a right-now disorder but something that is the distinct lifelong qi pattern.  I remember Ted Kaptchuk (who first introduced acupuncture to the West) writing about an acupuncture practitioner who might not only diagnose a patient with Dampness but infer from the medical exam that the patient lives in a damp basement, and that the configuration of his idiosyncratic qi is what led him into the damp basement to begin with, so Dampness that is immediately observable is merely a side effect of Water Excess that is a destiny condition for this individual. 

 

Personally, I encountered one practitioner, in Xi'an, trained classically (one on one by two old teachers, for many years) and very differently from how they teach acupuncturists en masse these days, who blew my mind by reading my main bazi characteristics on sight, immediately, without actually having the information.  One look and he announced my "wuxing type" with absolute accuracy (per my own bazi readings).  His subsequent protocol took into account this understanding of "who I am."  But he was super talented as a diagnostician, I doubt this is something every practitioner could do on sight -- though looks like they used to get the training for how to do it, but not anymore.

 

As for the "connection of the wuxing with the so-called chemistry" -- yes and yes, most definitely.  Oh, a huge yes.  The chemistry can be treacherous though, because the pull toward what you're missing is sometimes not as strong as the pull toward what comes easy (i.e. is already excessive).  Knowing from bazi what's behind chemistry, what underlies it -- a drive toward balance or a self-destructive one -- is a big boon. 

 

As for "elements within elements," that's very true and valid, and tends to be very complex.  Like all taoist sciences, this can go in-depth indefinitely, there's no bottom.  So, a step deeper from the basic layout, you might have to look at, not just, e.g., Earth but Dry Earth, Swamp, Desert, Wooded Earth, Earth pierced by Metal, Fireball Earth, Fertile Earth, etc., and have to do the same for each of the remaining wuxing phases, and what emerges is a very complex landscape with its idiosyncratic climate, observed over different seasons, under different conditions (cultivation or destruction or not-doing), and so on.  Each man and each woman is a planet, with its complex interactions of energies of the world.  A bazi reading is akin to mapping this planet... 

 

Thank you. I'm enjoying your posts as I'm fascinated by Wu Xing, it's why I'm here really.

 

 

 

 

Far as I know, it used to be fundamental for an acupuncturist to be able to determine the underlying "wuxing type," not something temporarily manifesting in a right-now disorder but something that is the distinct lifelong qi pattern.  I remember Ted Kaptchuk (who first introduced acupuncture to the West) writing about an acupuncture practitioner who might not only diagnose a patient with Dampness but infer from the medical exam that the patient lives in a damp basement, and that the configuration of his idiosyncratic qi is what led him into the damp basement to begin with, so Dampness that is immediately observable is merely a side effect of Water Excess that is a destiny condition for this individual. 

 

Personally, I encountered one practitioner, in Xi'an, trained classically (one on one by two old teachers, for many years) and very differently from how they teach acupuncturists en masse these days, who blew my mind by reading my main bazi characteristics on sight, immediately, without actually having the information.  One look and he announced my "wuxing type" with absolute accuracy (per my own bazi readings).  His subsequent protocol took into account this understanding of "who I am."  But he was super talented as a diagnostician, I doubt this is something every practitioner could do on sight -- though looks like they used to get the training for how to do it, but not anymore.

 

 

Yes this is correct, although announcing your "wuxing type" on first sight is very high level, I didn't know that was possible. Do you know if he could do that with every patient (several degrees of disharmony) and using traditional diagnostic methods or was he using his qi or qi "awareness"?

 

Did he talk about elements within elements?

 

 

What's blowing my mind is this bazi chart giving the same readings as the five element acupuncture diagnostic methods.

Do you know any good books/websites regarding this bazi chart?