For the Dumb Liberals, Especially Progressives

[blackstar212]

Define fascism and be surprised.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism

 

I am not surprised. There are no fascist countries. Though some are heading that way or have some fascist tendencies.

Edited December 30, 2016 by blackstar212

[ralis]

Anyone interested in more reading regarding fascism would do well with Wilhelm Reich's 'Mass Psychology of Fascism'. Also Hofstadter and Kershaw.

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Show me one country that does not or has not had classes? Communism by Marx eliminates classes and it has NEVER been done. It is a show to try to appease the with the name communism but it is NEVER put into practice. As soon as there is a bourgeois there is no communism.

 

Next thing you are going to tell me is that North Korea is a democratic republic. LOL

 

There is no such thing as equality so it can never be practiced. There will always be class. Consider sports for one, different grades based on ability. Some work extraordinarily hard to achieve what they have, others able can't even bring themselves to walk once a day. It would also be like saying everyone's opinion here is of equal value, which is false. Some are more appreciated than others, some have more knowledge, experience, better presentation etc of a higher class. The same in physical appearance/ability. In nature in breeding animals compete in strength, colour, feathers, collections, nest building etc, Nature wants the best, health, intelligence, beauty (as an expression of health) not equality.

 

"It is the great inequality to make unequal things equal" ~Aristotle

 

The equality they want is cheap labour, it's a capitalist system, it's a lie/hoax, a fools hope etc

 

 

 

And apparently national self sufficiency, a nation making it's own products, produce etc, against ^ this exploitation is evil?

Edited December 30, 2016 by Sionnach

[Taoist Texts]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism

 

I am not surprised. There are no fascist countries.  

What constitutes a definition of fascism and fascist governments is a highly disputed subject that has proved complicated and contentious. Historians, political scientists, and other scholars have engaged in long and furious debates concerning the exact nature of fascism and its core tenets.

 

(shrug) neither am i

[Aetherous]

Fascism was something that really worked that is why International banks allied their Communist and Capitalist branches to defeat it, can't have nations breaking away from Usury, being free, highly successful, great leaps in technology, public health, education, arts etc That is why it is buried in a mountain of lies, it's a blueprint for success and breaking control of international usury.

 

How do you define Fascism, or how do you define the successful elements of it?

 

Do you see any weaknesses in it?

[mvingon]

Holy smokes! Can any of us set aside polarities and preconceived/indoctrinated notions, in this thread? I'm not saying my ideas are perfect, but I am saying that we can agree on a common reality, to an extent. I am saying it is not "us vs them." We are them, they are us! After we find the points upon which we can somewhat agree are true, for this point in time, we can begin to sort out the differences (bearing in mind that we simply are not going to agree on everything, all the time). That does not make this or that point of view dumb, stupid, or whatever other labels we hurl at each other true. What it does do is create a false dichotomy, and false divide. Divide and conquer, folks... Which was the whole point of the title, of this thread. Smh.

 

'I would remind the readers of this thread that the first- and second-generation American Progressive intellectual/political elite were big fans of Mussolini, Lenin, Stalin and Hitler until it became expedient to not be. Then they announced that part of that crowd were really "the other guys."

 

Yes. But just because we did things badly, in the past is no reason we can't improve on ideas, today. If nature didn't evolve (adapt), it would die out. If we humans and our ideas don't evolve, we will die out, and take the whole planet and every beautiful, natural thing with us.

 

There are many valuable truths, in this thread, and I knew there would be. I should like to address them all, and the bad ones, too. I do not know there will be time, before I go offline, for a while. After that, access will be limited and spotty, for a while. But the point is, infighting and false divides do exactly what tpb intends it to do: make us complacent, compliant, or GIVE UP. I would hope while I am away that people can continue this conversation, and be a little more willing to listen to each side. Take common ideas and expand on them, and listen to the points that are contentious with item hearts and minds, and try to find a common ground.

 

Good luck, everyone. Will be spotty, at best, for now. Try not to be too disappointed (jokes).

[mvingon]

P.S. what has been *called* communism is really just fascism.

 

Please read "The Communist Manifesto." There are good and bad ideas in it. But if you haven't read it and are talking about "communism," you're really just full of yourself.

 

Btw, the idea was, iirc, social democracy>socialism>communism>anarchy.

[dust]

And apparently national self sufficiency, a nation making it's own products, produce etc, against ^ this exploitation is evil?

 

If you're talking autarky, I can agree to an extent. Every nation, city, village, family, individual should have a certain amount of self-sufficiency.

 

And yes, the exploitation of the world's poor by the world's not poor is nasty. But I don't see how Fascism comes into it -- Fascism maintains a strict class structure, the result of which is obviously exploitation. I hate to bring this up, but... it leads to things like the Holocaust. The Nazis brutally murdered a lot of people because of their belief in hierarchy.

[ralis]

If you're talking autarky, I can agree to an extent. Every nation, city, village, family, individual should have a certain amount of self-sufficiency.

 

And yes, the exploitation of the world's poor by the world's not poor is nasty. But I don't see how Fascism comes into it -- Fascism maintains a strict class structure, the result of which is obviously exploitation. I hate to bring this up, but... it leads to things like the Holocaust. The Nazis brutally murdered a lot of people because of their belief in hierarchy.

Not to forget their belief in 'Social Darwinism' survival of the fittest.

[Marblehead]

Well, at least Putin decided to not play the silly childish game that Obama started.  And the Brits got all over Kerry's ass.  Good for them.

 

Obama has been trying so hard to restart the cold war between the US and Russia.  I am so glad he has failed again.

[dust]

Not to defend Obama (I'm hardly paying attention this week) but Putin hasn't exactly been focused solely on Russia and liberty for the last 17 years.

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/07/vladimir_putin_has_a_plan_for_destroying_the_west_and_it_looks_a_lot_like.html

Edited December 30, 2016 by dust

[Aetherous]

lol, Slate.

[ralis]

Republican controlled North Carolina state legislature has passed several bills to limit the power of the newly elected Democratic governor. A clear example of authoritarian power.

 

Seemed fine while a Republican governor was in office.

Edited December 30, 2016 by ralis

[Marblehead]

But then, let's consider how much effort Obama is putting into screwing things up for Trump.  Obama is ruining the USA political system by trying to ruin the establishment for an incoming president.

 

He is supposed to be creating a smooth transition.  I wouldn't be surprised if he and his wife paint the Whitehouse black before they leave office.

 

Obama is one of those cry-babies we have been talking about.  What a disgrace!

Edited December 30, 2016 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

Republican controlled North Carolina state legislature has passed several bills to limit the power of the newly elected Democratic governor. A clear example of authoritarian power.

 

Seemed fine while a Republican governor was in office.

 

Yes, I went and read that article.  The Republicans are being just as childish as are the Democrats.  If you are going to compete someone is going to win and all others are going to lose.  Get over it.  Practice and make plans to do better the next competition.

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Well Nature sure doesn't go for survival of the weakest.

I'd rather work with nature than against, I'd rather eat a natural diet and live a long, happy, healthy life than the opposite. 

Fascism is like Taoism. Working with the laws of Nature. It sets ideals to strive toward, opposite of the present victim culture. It is like the hierarchy in nature, everything is playing it's part, so the ant is equal to the eagle in that regard, each vital in their own ways. Not everyone is going to be a neurosurgeon or fighter pilot. And say the farmer is as important. 

Fascists from my understanding valued merit, so a false/ useless aristocratic class they didn't see as having merit, aristocracy should be the "rule of the most excellent", toward philosopher kings.

Here is a quote from Julius Evola, I guess people consider him a Fascist.
 

"Modern capitalism is just as subversive as Marxism. The materialistic view of life on which both systems are based is identical. As long as we only talk about economic classes, profit, salaries, and production, and as long as we believe that real human progress is determined by a particular system of distribution of wealth and goods, then we are not even close to what is essential." Julius Evola, Men Among the Ruins

I have only read snippets of his work, I like this quote anyway.  Don't really like his paintings.

He is for Spiritual values above material, type things. Traditional living.

Here is a speech by Oswald Mosley, leader of the British Union of Fascist, speaking against exploitation/ globalization, they were strongly Anti War.  Really most of it is about Autarky/ national self sufficiency/ self-determination. 

Regarding hierarchy and National Socialism. Adherents of Judaism were not persecuted because of hierarchy they were put into camps for being Communist agitators, cultural subversives, who had just recently taken Russia in bloody revolutions backed by Wallstreet. Communist aims in their own words was/is to destroy western civilization. They put millions of people in Gulags, millions murdered. Americans put Japanese in Camps and so on. Judea declared war on Germany.

Also you need to look at the aftermath of WW1, the Germans were stripped of everything, mass suicides, people starving, woman of all ages going into prostitution to survive, because of the devalued currency it was exploited by the world, and other groups were profiting from this prostitution of Germany. How would you feel that became the fate of you mother, wife, daughter? Brothers , Fathers unable to provide, no work, killing themselves . Absolute miserable conditions. WW1 is skipped over. The whole thing was economics, the British empire didn't want any viable competition. Churchill himself says it was all economics.

It's a huge topics haha.

may have to return to later,

Happy New Years!

  Edited December 31, 2016 by Sionnach

[dust]

lol, Slate.

 

If you pay close attention to my posts (which I certainly don't expect you to, I'm just saying) I endeavour to use a variety of sources. In terms of news media I have linked to the Guardian, the Telegraph, the New York Times, the Washington Post, CNN, and many others (perhaps even a Daily Mail once). I've responded to many posts in which a member linked to a Daily Mail or Fox News article, and not once have I dismissed the point based purely on the source they chose to quote. If we strive for integrity, for balance, we take each individual/news story/philosophical argument on its own merits.

 

Looking through Google for something that summed up some of the ideas I couldn't be bothered to write an essay about, the Slate article seemed relevant. And it is full of links to other news sources backing it up (NYT, Guardian, Telegraph, Politico, NBC, Foreign Affairs, WaPo, RT, Moscow Times, CNN, etc).

 

I assume you get my point.

[mvingon]

"The Republicans are being just as childish..."

 

Just as? They opposed and blocked every single decent thing the could, that Obama wanted to do, even those that were their ideas until Obama wanted to do them, because black blackity black black black.

 

Obamacare could have been Romney care, which was successfully implemented in the state Romney governed. People got really mad because Reverend Wight rightly said during a sermon that "America's chickens have come home to roost," buy had diddley, to say about xenu and thetans and magic underwear.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

But then, let's consider how much effort Obama is putting into screwing things up for Trump.  Obama is ruining the USA political system by trying to ruin the establishment for an incoming president.

 

He is supposed to be creating a smooth transition.  I wouldn't be surprised if he and his wife paint the Whitehouse black before they leave office.

 

Obama is one of those cry-babies we have been talking about.  What a disgrace!

 

It is and I have people I interact with that just say the level of emotional manipulation is just too much.  I am sorry I was a Democrat years ago.  Trying to force other people to see things the way you do is an illness.  That is why I will fight for people to be able to say what they want.  But I just can not listen to the Progressive rhetoric anymore.  I have just become... apathetic.  It is like I cant like it but I cant hate it.  I just don't feel anything.  Sometimes I wonder why this is.  Maybe overload.

[mvingon]

Perhaps there's an equilibrium.

[Marblehead]

It is and I have people I interact with that just say the level of emotional manipulation is just too much.  I am sorry I was a Democrat years ago.  Trying to force other people to see things the way you do is an illness.  That is why I will fight for people to be able to say what they want.  But I just can not listen to the Progressive rhetoric anymore.  I have just become... apathetic.  It is like I cant like it but I cant hate it.  I just don't feel anything.  Sometimes I wonder why this is.  Maybe overload.

 

I hear you.  Thing is, we shouldn't allow our self to become apathetic.  I opted for Anarchist as opposed to apathetic.  I care and I don't want to stop caring. 

 

I realize that Social Anarchism will not work because many, even perhaps most, will not do the "right thing".  You know, "live and let live" and "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

 

I have no answers but I have a lot of bitches.

[cold]

I often quote myself " I don't know how to ______. But I do know _____ won't work."

 

Some times not knowing saves time and effort and reduces  pain and suffering.

 

Then again sometimes not.

[Aetherous]

If you pay close attention to my posts (which I certainly don't expect you to, I'm just saying) I endeavour to use a variety of sources. In terms of news media I have linked to the Guardian, the Telegraph, the New York Times, the Washington Post, CNN, and many others (perhaps even a Daily Mail once).

 

To be honest, I haven't paid that close of attention (not because of a personal bias against you)...although seeing as how this is the first time I can recall speaking against a source you used, I'm assured that any previous ones you linked to were acceptable enough.

 

I've responded to many posts in which a member linked to a Daily Mail or Fox News article, and not once have I dismissed the point based purely on the source they chose to quote. If we strive for integrity, for balance, we take each individual/news story/philosophical argument on its own merits.

 

True...the Slate article you posted has zero merit, in addition to the source having no merit in general. If it was a great article, I wouldn't have said a thing.

 

Also, you can lump Fox News into the list of acceptable sources. It's more legitimate than NYTimes or Washington Post these days, for example.

 

Looking through Google for something that summed up some of the ideas I couldn't be bothered to write an essay about, the Slate article seemed relevant. And it is full of links to other news sources backing it up (NYT, Guardian, Telegraph, Politico, NBC, Foreign Affairs, WaPo, RT, Moscow Times, CNN, etc).

 

I assume you get my point.

 

Just because an article links to other news sources doesn't make it worthwhile.

[ralis]

"The Republicans are being just as childish..."

Just as? They opposed and blocked every single decent thing the could, that Obama wanted to do, even those that were their ideas until Obama wanted to do them, because black blackity black black black.

Obamacare could have been Romney care, which was successfully implemented in the state Romney governed. People got really mad because Reverend Wight rightly said during a sermon that "America's chickens have come home to roost," buy had diddley, to say about xenu and thetans and magic underwear.

Mitch McConnell and the right wing cabal obstructed almost every judicial opening and many remain vacant after eight years.

 

If they repeal the ACA they have nothing to replace it. Millions will have no health insurance.

Edited December 31, 2016 by ralis

[Brian]

P.S. what has been *called* communism is really just fascism.

 

Please read "The Communist Manifesto." There are good and bad ideas in it. But if you haven't read it and are talking about "communism," you're really just full of yourself.

 

Btw, the idea was, iirc, social democracy>socialism>communism>anarchy.

I'll take you up on this -- please identify what you consider to be good ideas and bad ideas within The Communist Manifesto, including which premises you consider to be valid and which invalid.

 

First, though, have you actually read that piece since your teenage years? I find most "Progressives" haven't and when they read it again, that minority who don't just get mad at the suggestion (often calling me names), are stunned at what they find. I've even been accused of giving a false copy as a mean-spirited trick. For that reason, I don't provide Internet links to it anymore but it is readily available.

 

After that short read, (it's like a pamphlet) and a brief analysis, I encourage doing the same with Bastiat's "The Law." It is also a short read and came out just two years after the Manifesto -- like a modern-day Twitter response -- and is a very concise counterpoint which, not surprisingly, gets very little attention these days in academia or the mainstream media.