Religion Leading to Enlightenment?

[mindtooloud]

i've talked with religious people and people who meditate non religiously, and i've heard them both say very similar things, 

 

could praying in religion be compared to meditation, 

and could religion lead to enlightenment just like meditation could?

[Marblehead]

Yes, it could.  But one would have to avoid the illusions and delusions.

[mindtooloud]

Yes, it could.  But one would have to avoid the illusions and delusions.

any examples of the illusions and delusions you could provide?

 

would you consider the military a form of religion?

Edited December 28, 2016 by mindtooloud

[Marblehead]

any examples of the illusions and delusions you could provide?

 

would you consider the military a form of religion?

 

The illusions and delusions I speak of are those things taught that do not hold up to reality.

 

No, I wouldn't consider any military a religion.  But it can be considered a way of life.  Perhaps the true warrior could be said to be following his creed religiously.

[Brian]

Define "religion."

[SeekerOfHealing]

No, it can't.

 

and what do you mean enlightenment? Only Buddhism leads to enlightenment, and only Neidan leads to immortality.

Edited December 28, 2016 by SeekerOfHealing

[dwai]

No, it can't.

 

and what do you mean enlightenment? Only Buddhism leads to enlightenment, and only Neidan leads to immortality.

 

     

[Cheshire Cat]

From a single Buddha, dozens of Buddhist sects and schools.

 

From a single Jesus, dozens of different Christianities.

 

History proves that it is enlightenment that leads to religions. ..

[LAOLONG]

.

Edited January 24, 2017 by SHINTO

[Everything]

If you wanna be enlightened, simply lighten up on your self.

Perhaps the prayer is like letting go of trying to make everything work or happen, and just let it happen naturally, trust that your life is proof enough that everything works fine, otherwise u'd not be alive now would you. So relax, the sun does it job, you're just here to enjoy your experience. Do you have to remind yourself to breath all of the time, or can you simply enjoy your naturally occuring and soothing breath. Life's easy and enlightened. If it were heavy, it'd crumble under its own weight, but its not. It's light, balanced, easy, effortless, intuitive, natural, just happens. Like your breath. Always good to close your eyes and enjoy your breath, to remind urself to relax, and keep calm, excitement can be expressed in a very calm and soothing way aswell.

 

Always the effort goes into making things more difficult for yourself. Without effort, life is easy, because you are not doing anything to make it more difficult for yourself, thus you allow to be easy as it already is easy, always has been easy, and always will be easy. However, challenges, that's the fun part. You can take part in all of the joyful challenges you can possibly imagine in infinite effortless ways of expressing your joy in countless of unique and effortless ways.

 

And if life is hard, let go, allow, let go, allow, etc. And before you know it, you can see clearly again, and the fun and joy naturally returns to you, your natural zest for life returns to you, you feel good again, you don't feel tired or whatever, just excited to be here and now and alive, fully healthy.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Everything

[SeekerOfHealing]

Enlightenment is here, religion look into salvation which will never happens.

[johndoe2012]

Putting enlightenment / salvation into the future is just the mind / chatter assuming you to be a self that needs saving or getting you to a future state that is somehow 'better' than 'now'.

[SeekerOfHealing]

There is big difference between understanding this and realizing this.

[Marblehead]

There is big difference between understanding this and realizing this.

 

Indeed there is.

 

Just yesterday I was about to act with prejudice when I had previously determined that I would undertake a project without prejudice.

 

I don't talk about salvation as I don't believe I or anyone else needs to be saved.  But we all (I'm generalizing) still have more work to do.

[johndoe2012]

There is big difference between understanding this and realizing this.

 

Yes of course.

 

But the above will help in shifts that occur out-of-the-blue.

 

The idea that one is a somebody that can be linearly impacted in time as in a process A-B-C will disappear and be looked upon as a dream.

Edited December 30, 2016 by johndoe2012

[johndoe2012]

Indeed there is.

 

Just yesterday I was about to act with prejudice when I had previously determined that I would undertake a project without prejudice.

 

Maybe the thought "I need to act without prejudice" had no effect on reality. Like thinking "I can shoot laser beams out of my eyes" have the same effect.

[Marblehead]

Maybe the thought "I need to act without prejudice" had no effect on reality. Like thinking "I can shoot laser beams out of my eyes" have the same effect.

 

It actually has helped because the intent stopped me before I could act.  The Army taught me "action without prejudice" but I have been retired for over thirty years.  This really relates to something I have said a couple times here before:  The Sage does what needs be done, nothing more, nothing less.

[cold]

Thought before action when ever possible.

 Dick Francis author jockey

[Marblehead]

Thought before action when ever possible.

 Dick Francis author jockey

 

This is very true.  Sit down and talk before declaring war.

 

But then, the Taoist Sage has already had the thought, though lightning fast, before acting.

[Jeff]

This is very true.  Sit down and talk before declaring war.

 

But then, the Taoist Sage has already had the thought, though lightning fast, before acting.

Would not the Sage just know and do, no thought about it...

[Marblehead]

Would not the Sage just know and do, no thought about it...

 

That is what I pick up from Chuang Tzu but I am rarely in that sort of state so I can't speak to it first hand.

 

But yes, this is basically what I am speaking to whenever I speak of living spontaneously.

 

 

Funny side note:  I might be sitting down and suddenly get up but by the time I am standing erect I have no idea why I stood up.  Then a few seconds later I realize that I have to go pee.

[thelerner]

From a single Buddha, dozens of Buddhist sects and schools.

From a single Jesus, dozens of different Christianities.

History proves that it is enlightenment that leads to religions. ..

Yeah

I think mystics (accidentally?) start religion then they dogma-fy and become the institution. 

 

Pretty much all religions have mystical sects to them.  Imo, even within the nonmystical mainstream there are people who use there religion to find their enlightenment.  Maybe not your definition, but an enlightenment nonetheless.

[Spotless]

Johndoe2012 said:

"Putting enlightenment / salvation into the future is just the mind / chatter assuming you to be a self that needs saving or getting you to a future state that is somehow 'better' than 'now'."

 

Response was:

 

There is big difference between understanding this and realizing this.

Actually there is no difference between understanding this and realizing this - they are one and the same.

There is a big difference between conceptualizing this and realizing this.

 

It is often an assumption that we understand something of this nature but have not arrive in it yet - this leads to "positions" - energetic structures that build our cage and from which we strain to grab the fruits we believe are the most cherished fruit. The fruits of course are not real - they are a concoction of our assumptions made from bits here and there all combined and manufactured to veer away from our fears and confirm our aliegiance to our other valued grasping.

 

It is often our sense of smell or hearing that brings us into the present. Jerking us out of concepts and our life in baiting futures and waning ethereal pasts.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Spotless

[Owledge]

i've talked with religious people and people who meditate non religiously, and i've heard them both say very similar things, 

 

could praying in religion be compared to meditation, 

and could religion lead to enlightenment just like meditation could?

I would liken prayer to nei gung, not meditation. The former is a process, the latter is for taking a vacation from a process.

 

Religion is an activity with the aim of enlightenment that wears this as a label. Many other things are such an activity, too, not wearing that label.

It's more like people make deliberate decisions in any situation of life that either move them closer to enlightenment or farther away from it.

Same with drinking ayahuasca: It will initiate a process that you experience and are free to decide what to do with that experience. This is related to what a shaman once said, that ayahuasca can be the greatest of liars. - If you want to be lied to, then maybe a lot more self-deception is the way you want your path to be.