Question for Wu Li Pai'ists and other people too.

[Taoist Texts]

I appreciate all the comments but they are not saying anything particular related to the question of the nature of yang shen, if it's really permanent etc.

There are answers to all these questions, and they are essential to practice from the day one. It is just they are not for the open forum, for a number of reasons.

[Cheshire Cat]

What's the spinal handle cavity?

[Taoist Texts]

Spinal Handle (jiaji 夾脊)

[A.A.Khokhlov]

Probably this: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42984-yangshen-perspectives-in-traditional-schools/ can shed some light on your question.

 

Best Regards,

A.A.Khokhlov

[Ormus]

So according to Xi Pai Masters this book used by Longmen Pai,Qianfeng Pai and maybe Wu Liu Pai(I dont know for them for sure) have big mistakes and is dangerous?

What are the remedys and corect practices then?

 

Ormus

[Taoist Texts]

this book used by Longmen Pai,Qianfeng Pai and maybe Wu Liu Pai

Why would a true lineage with a live teacher use any book, let alone such low-grade one as this?

What are the remedys and corect practices then?

 

Correct practices for becoming a xian 仙？If so it goes like this:

 

1. Avoid teachers like plague. Advertisement=fakery. If you manage not to fall into their trap, that is 20% of the task complete.

2. Ask yourself 'can i sacrifice everything to achieve this goal?' If not, it is better not to start. But if you can, the task will be 40% done.

3. Forget everything you know about cultivation. That will get you at the 60% mark.

4. Read the general guidelines. If you accept them in your heart, that will be 80%.

5. For concrete details read the orthodox texts. Orthodox=complying with the guidelines. If you can not – ask someone who you trust to explain. If he promises to explain everything in under 15 minutes – that’s whom you trust. After that, you will be 100% done.

6. Once you done with this – the practice will take care of itself.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[Arkady Shadursky]

Hello, Taoist Texts.

You are pretending to know how to become Xian, but can't answer simple questions, like relationship between Bagua and alchemy.

Probably you can answer it now "in under 15 minutes"?

Or I'd say your Xian becoming tutorial is quite doubtful for me.

---

Arkady

[Wells]

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Edited January 5, 2017 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited January 5, 2017 by Wells

[SeekerOfHealing]

You better correct him by putting out arguments, practices and ways to attain rather then making jokes around.

[Wells]

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Edited January 5, 2017 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited March 2, 2017 by Wells

[SeekerOfHealing]

So you wishing other people well because they want to learn from other people then you think are right? 

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

Xu Songyao 徐頌堯  (hao Haiyin 海印子1893?-c. 1966-76) includes a bitter denunciation of the text titled “On the 12 Great Mistakes of Xingming guizhi” (Lun Xingming guizhi shi’er dacuo”論《性命圭旨》十二大錯) ...

 

Xu was a student of the renowned Wang Qihu 汪启濩 (zi Dongting東亭, hao Tizhen shanren 體真山人), author of, among numerous other works, Essential Principles of Innate Disposition and the Lifespan (Xingming yaozhi 性命要旨). Wang and Xu were of the Western Branch of Inner Alchemy, ...

 

In his undated “Great Mistakes” Xu promised dire consequences for those who practiced the techniques described in Principles.

 

If the student concentrated their attention on a point just above the bridge of the nose in order to penetrate a certain physio-spiritual point, as Principles instructed, “you’ll develop a brain leakage [a severe form of nasal congestion] and other problems,” (de naolou dengzheng 得腦漏等症) Xu promised, continuing: “Once Master Wang had a female disciple who, before [she studied under him], practiced this and became crazy, then stupid.”

 

 As to Principles’ instruction to “constantly keep this mind recessed in the Spinal Handle cavity so that you can draw the upright energy of heaven and earth inside you,” Xu admonishes, “If you practice this, you will suffer acutely from diseases related to unremitting seminal emission.”

 

If one “congeals the spirit” (ningshen 凝神) at the place that Principles recommends—the Yellow Court, identified at approximately the same place Western medicine calls the solar plexus—“it will cause a lump to develop.”

 

/Integrating Inner Alchemy into Late Ming Cultural History A Contextualization and Annotated Translation of Principles of the Innate Disposition and the Lifespan (Xingming guizhi 性命圭旨) (1615) by Daniel Burton-Rose/

He didn't understand the theory in Xing Ming gui zhi very clearly.

Here is a rebuttal to that article:

http://www.360doc.cn/article/1118715_57974264.html

 

Most importantly:

所谓“先要存想山根”，不是要你死守山根不放，是开始的片刻，主旨在于“退藏”。如果断章取义，胡乱理解而专修“山根”，此女弟子不“发癫成傻”才怪！

"in regard to 'first, place the mind in the mountain root,' its method is not in you 'deadly maintaining' there without letting it go.  It is just something you do for a short period of time at the start of practice.  Its major idea is to 'withdraw inside,'  if interpreted outside of its context and casually practice the "mountain root," it would be strange if this female disciple didn't go crazy and become stupid!!!"

 

 

It is important to understand that Xing Ming Gui Zhi is a very complex and detailed manual and you need to understand the whole context of the book before you can practice it properly.   People practice incorrectly and hurt themselves all the time, that is why Nei dan is orally passed down from generation to generation.

[damdao]

(...)

What are the remedys and corect practices then?

 

Ormus

 

 

(...)

 

Most importantly:

所谓“先要存想山根”，不是要你死守山根不放，是开始的片刻，主旨在于“退藏”。如果断章取义，胡乱理解而专修“山根”，此女弟子不“发癫成傻”才怪！

"in regard to 'first, place the mind in the mountain root,' its method is not in you 'deadly maintaining' there without letting it go.  It is just something you do for a short period of time at the start of practice.  (...)

 

People practice incorrectly and hurt themselves all the time, that is why Nei dan is orally passed down from generation to generation.

 

I was thinking something like that. 

The lineages that recomend concentration in dantian (I think Longmen) does not recommend a fixed concentration yoga-like but a soft awareness.

I think it is nearly impossible to fix the mind to a point and not provoke an inbalance.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

I was thinking something like that. 

The lineages that recomend concentration in dantian (I think Longmen) does not recommend a fixed concentration yoga-like but a soft awareness.

I think it is nearly impossible to fix the mind to a point and not provoke an inbalance.

So basically the whole neidan school and several other schools of Daoist focus on the Dantian, but the important thing to understand is what Dantian?

When you look at xiao dao zang, for instance, it is pretty clear that Tang and Pre Tang ideas about Dantian were not fixed in the top, middle, and lower dantian, but instead, dan tian could be in many places, so each teacher would have their own understanding of how to cultivate Dan tian.   It was only with the fixing of Dantian being the three main dan tian as well as the idea of the lower dantian, qi xue, and qi hai being the central point of practice that Neidan really became well organized as a school different from fu qi, cun xiang, or something else.

Xing Ming gui Zhi is the same as other schools, it puts the main focus in the Qi Hai, which is under the lower dantian.

The point of focusing on the "ancestor portal" is only for a few moments in order to pull the attention inside the body, then they move the attention to the "middle palace" and finally to the Qi hai.  This completes the Ren Meridian circulation, and then that makes it easier to keep the focus on the qi hai point, but it is only a beginning level practice.  Eventually, xing ming gui zhi also teaches to go to wu wei, wu ji, and the mystery gate, just like every other major nei dan school.    The idea that people will focus for a long time on the zu qiao is an incorrect interpretation.  The section saying to focus on that area all the time isn't about pulling the attention to the top dan tian, it is about controlling the eyes.  that is called "Zhi yan," it means to maintain a soft focus so that the hun spirit is not pulled away through the eyes.  It is easier to control the eyes by naturally allowing the attention to rest between them, on the top of the nose between the eyebrows, but this isn't about practicing the area as a dantian, it is about not allowing qi to leak.  the practice of the Dantian is still mainly in the lower dantian, and then in later stages, after he che is achieved and the foetus is formed, then people will practice more in the upper dantian and middle dantian, just like in every other major school.

many people don't understand the importance of building yang qi in the lower dantian, achieving wu wei, or achieving he che and the growth of the foetus, so they try to do upper and middle dantian meditation early in the process and end up hurting themselves.  It is a very common mistake for both beginners and people who try to learn from books.   If people want to do neidan properly, they need a teacher to help them as their mind begins to open. Without a guide, it is too easy to assume practice and make many mistakes.   It should take at least three months to build the foundation and then at least another three years to build up he che, and maybe close to a decade to achieve the full energy body, and you can't skip stages.    Xing Ming Gui Zhi is one of the most complete theoretical books explaining how the energy body works, it is a huge deal, but is very complicated and hard to understand.  Usually I think people would be better off to study Huang Yuanji and Wu liu, since those writers were much more explicit about how to practice correctly, whereas too many things are implicit in Xing Ming Gui zhi, so it is easy to make mistakes.

[Mudfoot]

Three months =100 days.

Three years.

Close to a decade =Nine years.

 

Didn't that pop up in one of these nei dan threads recently?

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

Three months =100 days.

Three years.

Close to a decade =Nine years.

 

Didn't that pop up in one of these nei dan threads recently?

It is a very common rule in Nei Dan.

Different schools think differently about this, but one of the most popular ideas is the 100 days foundation practice, three years to build the embryo, and nine years to form the "body outside of the body," and this assumes you are practicing very seriously. If practicing casually, it can take even longer, or never happen at all.

[Ormus]

Famous Master Cheng Yingning who belonged to Longmen Pai and Yin Xian Pai,criticised Daoist school and Nei Dan lineages because of focus to Void which he see that bad influence of Mahayana Buddhism.He clearly point that Nei Dan come  later after Wai Dan(laboratory alchemy) and that its work on Yang Shen is not superior and he say what is superior method of real old Xians.Here maybe is explanation why we dont see anymore real Xian in physical body but just Xian in vision or not at all.

 

Here is the text:

“Smashing the empty Void or pulverizing the vacuous Emptiness”

are all phrases from Daoist books of later periods. None of these are

found in any of the classics of the ancient immortals. This is because

most of the ancient immortals began cultivation in outer alchemy.

Their practice is entirely engaged with the material and the substantive

(wuzhi de 物質的). It does not concern the empty Void at all. Nor did it

work on the flesh body yet. But fearful of the complexities and hardships

of outer alchemy, self-cultivators of later times preferred the

simplicity and ease of inner practice. They switched to begin their

practice with Essence, qi, and Spirit (jing qi shen 精氣神) of the body.

There subsequently evolved the theory of Refining the Essence into Qi

(lianjing huaqi 煉精化氣), Refining Qi into the Spirit (lianqi huashen

煉氣化神), and Refining the Spirit to return to the Void (lianshen

huanxu 煉神還虛). As they later felt the theory insufficient, they

added an additional level of Refining the Void to unite with the Way

(lianxu hedao 煉虛合道). As a result, the Way of Alchemy had since

then become linked with the empty Void.

 

For Chen, the most catastrophic consequence of this shift is the valorization

of the mind over the body, and to such a degree that the physicality

or materiality of the body was rejected in the process. Most symbolic

of this rejection is the modern practitioner’s contentment with the sole

deliverance of his Yang Spirit (yang shen 陽神) through self-cultivation,

and his all too ready dismissal of the legendary feat of “ascent by flight in

broad daylight” (bairi feisheng 白日飛升). For such a feat epitomizes the

true union of the spiritual and the physical realms, whereby the ancient

immortal allegedly soars up into the empyrean with not only his perfected

Yang Spirit but also his perfected flesh body (routi 肉體), achieving

the rare wonder of the perfection of both body and spirit (xingshen ju

miao 形神俱妙).

 

Ormus

Edited February 7, 2017 by Ormus

[exorcist_1699]

On 2/7/2017 at 10:47 AM, Ormus said:

 

Famous Master Cheng Yingning who belonged to Longmen Pai and Yin Xian Pai,criticised Daoist school and Nei Dan lineages because of focus to Void which he see that bad influence of Mahayana Buddhism.He clearly point that Nei Dan come  later after Wai Dan(laboratory alchemy) and that its work on Yang Shen is not superior and he say what is superior method of real old Xians.Here maybe is explanation why we dont see anymore real Xian in physical body but just Xian in vision or not at all.

 

Here is the text:

“Smashing the empty Void or pulverizing the vacuous Emptiness”

are all phrases from Daoist books of later periods. None of these are

found in any of the classics of the ancient immortals. This is because

most of the ancient immortals began cultivation in outer alchemy.

Their practice is entirely engaged with the material and the substantive

(wuzhi de 物質的). It does not concern the empty Void at all. Nor did it

work on the flesh body yet. But fearful of the complexities and hardships

of outer alchemy, self-cultivators of later times preferred the

simplicity and ease of inner practice. They switched to begin their

practice with Essence, qi, and Spirit (jing qi shen 精氣神) of the body.

There subsequently evolved the theory of Refining the Essence into Qi

(lianjing huaqi 煉精化氣), Refining Qi into the Spirit (lianqi huashen

煉氣化神), and Refining the Spirit to return to the Void (lianshen

huanxu 煉神還虛). As they later felt the theory insufficient, they

added an additional level of Refining the Void to unite with the Way

(lianxu hedao 煉虛合道). As a result, the Way of Alchemy had since

then become linked with the empty Void.

.................

.................

Ormus

 

 

 

To be fair , the injection of the  Buddhist  most important element  " emptiness/ void  " into Taoism makes the system  more perfect  provided that the Chinese intellectuals  capable of  digesting  it well, which unfortunately  is not  always the case. Taoism , originally talks  only about 'nothingness' (' 虛')   , not about the 'void ' ( '空'),   although people may argue that their difference  is  not that  much . The  real  trouble  is that people are always afraid of playing with emptiness (maybe frightened  by that immense bottomless void ) ,  not to speak of the existence of   many subtle layers of it , so they started to , more precisely speaking , degenerated into just talking about it , thinking that by  reasoning, or by gathering more  and more  knowledge about it , they can  then  grasp it , which unfortunately is not the case  ;  quite the contrast ,  just talking and reasoning about void/ nothingness makes them deviate  further away ...

 

The  difficulty of attaining Buddhist ' Genuine void' ( '真空') by  Buddhist own way  , from Taoist perspective , comes from Buddhist denial  / look-down on  jing and qi  ; the most common mistake is its accusation of   the so-called Taoist   attachment  to body ,  to physical immortality...etc  , which superficial- minded people  like to repeat .. regretfully  totally miss the essence of Taoism .

 

The ever, clearest  Taoist criticism on Buddhist way  comes from " Genuine words for preaching Tao"  ('唱道真言') , a Taoist pamphlet published in the Ching Dynasty . In it , there is   a passage too long   to translate , so I  summarize it as follows :

 

Jing , qi,  Shen originally are inseparable,   so in practice, we Taoists always view them as a whole: After having accumulated certain amount of jing , you can have a  grip of  qi ; after having accumulated certain amount of qi, you can have a  qualitative jump to Shen... provided that in this  process , you do not add  unnecessary stuff  ( Your intention/ minds  to attain it  is in fact  contrasts  to the character of void )   to it  .

 Buddhists don't  grasp  such an insight  , they  just ignore  jing and qi , and deliberately isolate the element  of 'Shen' ( Buddha Mind)  to cultivate ;  this is the reason why  while   Buddhist cultivation  solely  extracts the spiritual part and leaves  behind  some physical " Buddhist relics " ("舍利子" ,  from Taoist point of view ,  is still  the remains of jing + qi ) after having their  bodies burnt , Taoist accomplishment is greater as it  can attain qi-lizing (' 氣化' ) of   the whole body , then reconstructs it in other space  at our own will ..

 

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by exorcist_1699

[mrpasserby]

'

Edited May 29, 2019 by mrpasserby